Is There Such a Thing as a Humble Christian? What is it?

For discussion. As a Christian I remember wanting people to see Christ in me. I wanted to be like Christ as an advertisement like a billboard for Christ. I was conscious that people were watching me. Of course as a preacher I did live in a so-called glass house.

In any case, Christian, do YOU do that? Are YOU a self-promoter in the sense that you want, desire, hope, and pray that people will see what a good person you are so they can see Christ? "See what a good person I am" you say, or you secretly hope others see it without saying so?

And this stuff about humility. Scrap it. It's worthless stuff. Christian simply do not know what it is. Moses reportedly told everyone he was the most humble man on earth (Numbers 12:3). What a joke. Of course I don't think he wrote that, but some Christians are stuck explaining it away.

Christian, are you more humble than others? Sort of a catch-22 eh?

65 comments:

Thesauros said...

I can't remember who said it but it's still a good line:

"Humility is not necessarily thinking less of yourself. Humility is thinking of yourself less often.”

The humility that is tied to being a Christian is the admission that we cannot save ourselves.

Which leads to another good line -“To what will you look to for help if not to that which is stronger than yourself?”

John W. Loftus said...

Thesauros, before you can say what humility is you must first tell me how less often I must think of myself. Is it based on how often others think of themselves? If so, would you be more humble than others or less humble if you acknowledged that you thought less of yourself than others?

Cole said...

For me humility is when I come to the realization of who I am and who God is and that I'm not like Him in every way.

Example:

God is perfect I'm not

God is all-knowing I'm not

God is infinite in wisdom I'm not

God is self-sufficient I'm not

God is everywhere at once I'm not

God is in control I'm not

I'm humbled in believing that there's a God and I'm not like Him in every way.

Tyro said...

I wonder at people who have the conceit to proclaim what God is or is not.

Maybe this makes you humble compared to other egotists but that's a funny sort of standard.

Thesauros said...

It's just a line that I thought was kind of catchy.

If given some thought, many people would be able to know whether they are less self-absorbed than they were, say, a year ago.

Another line I remember was in an interview with Brad Pitt regarding his focus on resucing kids through adoption. "I'm sick to death of thinking about myself all the time."

Good on him.

ahswan said...

Paul's example of humility in Philippians is to become a servant to others. If you want to find a truly humble Christian, look to those serving the poor, the sick, the oppressed. There are many of them out there.

Chuck O'Connor said...

Interesting question.

Timely for me too. I watched "Waiting for Armageddon" last night and couldn't get over the glee all the pre-trib christians expressed for either being able to wield a sword and cut down all the sinners or have a front row seat when Jesus kicks some ass during the end times.

I think humility within christianity is relative to the strain of christianity practiced. A Calvinist isn't a Quaker.

exreformed said...

Cole wrote:
For me humility is when I come to the realization of who I am and who God is and that I'm not like Him in every way.

What do you mean "for me" Cole? Why is it o.k. for Christians to be so subjective? Are you saying Humility is different for each person? Is there no standard objective standard to define humility?

ahswan said...
Paul's example of humility in Philippians is to become a servant to others. If you want to find a truly humble Christian, look to those serving the poor, the sick, the oppressed. There are many of them out there.

What a load of rubbish? Just ask Bruce Gerencser from http://nwohioskeptics.com/. He served the Church in poverty for twenty five years. Like me, he noticed the half million dollar houses and fifty thousand dollar SUV's the Christians drive back to their middle class home.

Or better yet, ask Creflo Dollar and Ken Copeland about serving others. They love to serve others in their Rolls Royce,private jet, and five hundred dollar suits. Ohh, but it is God's will brother.

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

Dear John

How does this debunk Christianity?

Looks like Christian bashing!

Phil

John W. Loftus said...

Phil I suppose you have THE definition of "debunking" and "bashing" and they are distinct?

Okayhot shot. What are they?

And while you're at it you can tell us why I can't write on any topic I want to since this is my blog?

We're waiting.

♪♫•.¸¸♫•*¨*•♫♪

Chuck O'Connor said...

John,

I guess Philip doesn't see that the self-centered obsession christians have with coercing others to share in their salvation experience is a defeater to any kind of selfless transcendence. The ground for the entire evangelical experience is self-centered evidenced in the reliance on "personal testimony". Sheesh. You can't be that thick Rev, can you.

Yes it debunks Christianity by bashining its assertion to humility.

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

Dear John,

Hmm, I just asked a question, you are able to do whatever you want with your blog as you know. I just failed to see how this was debunking Christianity? And you failed to answer, which I have come to expect. *sigh*

As to the two terms... I would just go with the dictionary definitions.

Bashing in this case -
verbal abuse, as of a group or a nation: feminist-bashing; China-bashing.

and Debunking...

to expose or excoriate (a claim, assertion, sentiment, etc.) as being pretentious, false, or exaggerated: to debunk advertising slogans.

Phil

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ Chuck

Ahh the angry man returns.

You said,

Yes it debunks Christianity by bashining its assertion to humility.

My Reply,

No it doesn't debunk Christianity because it does not represent Christianity. Depravity and the call to humility and both in play here and are not mutually exclusive, but then again that's what you like to do isn't it Chuck, knock down the strawman and announce victory?

Phil

Cole said...

Exreformed,

There's many different ways to attain humility for the Christian. I was just naming one of them.

Lvka said...

Hmmm... in Romanian it has 'kind', not 'meek', in both the Orthodox, as well as the Protestant version.

No. I would want them to see the extreme kindness and goodness and selfless love my grandmother, who raised me, showed me when I was little. Or to read the Gospel and to have their hearts touched by the loving-kindness that emanated from Christ. Or to read the lives of the saints, even the new ones, who suffered in communist prisons, how they loved and prayed for their enemies. In short, I would like to confront them with the problem of goodness.

Gandolf said...

Reverend Phillip Brown said..."Dear John,

Hmm, I just asked a question, you are able to do whatever you want with your blog as you know. I just failed to see how this was debunking Christianity? And you failed to answer, which I have come to expect. *sigh*"

Hey Reverend some things are not easy to debunk.You know like monsters living under childrens beds or whether Turkey Gizzard and Toe of Camel ,really helps cure coughs,colds sore holes and pimples on yer dicky.

Sometims best we can do is just discuss it some more.You dont like that?, why not?

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

Dear Gandolf,

Happy to discuss, not participate in bashing! Maybe the title of the blog should be discussing Christianity if things are so hard to debunk? What do you think?

Phil

Chuck O'Connor said...

Oh silly philly,

I'm not angry and I'm not attacking strawmen because I'm not debating you. I am sharing the opinion that I think you are proud and dim.

Also, I'd suggest you learn the meaning of excoriate. It is akin to bashing therefore debunking can be synonymous as well.

Now toddle off and play with your bible.

Gandolf said...

Thesauros said...
It's just a line that I thought was kind of catchy.

If given some thought, many people would be able to know whether they are less self-absorbed than they were, say, a year ago.

Another line I remember was in an interview with Brad Pitt regarding his focus on resucing kids through adoption. "I'm sick to death of thinking about myself all the time."

Good on him."

Hi Mak.Hope you and the family are well.

What about the motive of Brad Pitt receiving some sort of self gratification for getting involved in this.Now dont go thinking this type of charity is something im against, im not against it.And Brad Pitt is possibly just being very sinceer.Im just pointing out these type things in themselves, are not always short on also providing some humans a way to feel the empowerment of being thought as extra specially wonderful.When the fact is not everyone is in the same situation to be involved in charity, even thought they may be very extra honest! and and humble! in really wishing they actually could be in the position to have ability of being involved in such commendable practices.

Sadly i feel i happen notice with many folks of faith with regards to taking action surrounding exposing sex abuse or even fixing situations where spiritual abuse is still in action! on a dailey bases!.Not a lot of "action" is seen ever happening.Its all "words" of sorrys or condolences .No action ,just plenty of excuses!

Yet come trouble happening in some other neck of the woods ,thats not about sex abuse within faith or faith groups spiritually abusing folks..Christians from almost everywhere! can suddenly be seen to spring! into swift action , like a great hungry multitude of scarabaeid beetles .Each faith group rallying and hustling the limelight, to the very best of their ability, it would almost seem in hope of obtaining the highest statice and fame that is possible to be gleaned from the "show".

So Mak, when does this so called humility verge being more about infatuation of the self or pride of the faith and the faithful.And is that honestly so humble.

What are your thoughts.

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

Nice Cheeky Chuck,

(hey I can play rhyming games to, mines better though because I added alliteration as well)

Thanks for your opinion. I also have the same about you but more so.

As to your word lesson you argue that excoriate is akin to bashing. Meaning that sever criticism is similar as verbal abuse. Hmmm, clearly you yourself do not understand what you are saying, as I have pointed out before. Verbal abuse at a particular group has nothing to do with sever criticism. This post calls all Christians self-promoting it does not criticise the theological position of the call to be humble under the banner of depravity it just looks at the people groups of Christianity.

Now while I toddle off and play with my bible maybe you should try and engage with it rather than making debasing comments about me and other Christians, because in the end this is all you are doing?

Toddling off now. Let me know if I should toddle back ;-)

Gandolf said...

Reverend Phillip Brown said...
Dear Gandolf,

Happy to discuss, not participate in bashing! Maybe the title of the blog should be discussing Christianity if things are so hard to debunk? What do you think?

Phil"

Hi Phil i dont see why a title should really be such a great worry.But no debunking is still more appropriate in my opinion.Because i cant see how faith(s) ever produce so much honesty of being actually humble.They just dont really even seem to be geared that way.To me humble would include being accepting of us all simply being human.How can one ever be so "honestly humble" and accept simply all being human, while one also moves toward needing to adopt one of the very many "special" faiths?.

In my opinion i think connecting faith and humble together.Is far more about deceit! and pride and showmanship.Than being about anything that could be "honestly" classed as being so humble.

Chuck O'Connor said...

Cheeky Chuck doesn't rhyme Phil.

Excoriate can allude to abrasive injury something very much consonant with bashing.

I could care less what you think of me.

Now go play with your bible.

David said...

He who professes humility has none. Bragging about being humble is still bragging.

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ Cheecky Chucky,

There now it rhymes, silly willy typo's. Happy Wappy?

You said,

Excoriate can allude...

My Reply,

Wow so your hanging your whole point on an allusion. Strong display of your argument! Must be weird when a dim Christian shows you to be a lot dimmer?

You Said,

I could care less what you think of me

My Reply,

Yet you keep coming back.... ;-)

Righto back to the bible.

You back too? What is it you do?

Phil

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ Gandolf,

In our speaking about humility we must always be careful not to confuse arrogance with certainty and exclusivity with intolerance.

Phil

wvtechie said...

Benjamin Franklin once undertook a project to attain all of the vitures. After trying for a while he concluded that he would never attain humity because if he were ever humble, he'd be proud of the fact.

Angie Van De Merwe said...

I've always found the Founders very wise. And have enjoyed many of their quotes.
I think Franklin is right. Humility is self-forgetfulness. When one seeks to be humble or practice humility, then one has lost the race before it's begun.

Humility, then, can only be accomplished by doing what one has a passion to do. Then, one can forget oneself and do what is before them with self-forgetfulness about how they appear to others....

Thesauros said...

@ Gandolf - "So Mak, when does this so called humility verge being more about infatuation of the self or pride of the faith and the faithful."

Well, who can say? Our lives are generally so full of contradictions that we can't even effectively communicate with ourselves or understand our own motives let alone judge those of someone else. That’s why so many people mock Matthew chapters 5-7. Jesus taught that it’s all about motives while we want to judge others by their behaviours and at the same time judge ourselves by our intentions.

My graduate thesis had to do with this topic as it effects the practice of counselling. One afternoon I’d said to my adviser, “No action is free from pride. Just opening the door for you will be tainted with the knowledge that it will make you think more highly of me.” Even as mature as he was it took him a few moments to agree.

GearHedEd said...

Gandolf said,

"...Hey Reverend some things are not easy to debunk.You know like monsters living under childrens beds or whether Turkey Gizzard and Toe of Camel ,really helps cure coughs,colds sore holes and pimples on yer dicky."

Do me a favor, Gandy, and lay off trying to debunk camel toes, OK?

The Journapist said...

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Please check out my stuff. It's funny and edgy, I hope!

God bless...

exreformed said...

Reverend Brown

Can you please tell us ware you went to seminary and what denomination you are with? Any quack these day's can claim to be a Reverend.

PhysicistDave said...

Tyro wrote:
> I wonder at people who have the conceit to proclaim what God is or is not.
> Maybe this makes you humble compared to other egotists but that's a funny sort of standard.

Yeah.

I generally call myself an atheist: since I doubt that God exists, most believers want to insist that I am one of those evil atheists. Okay, cool, whatever they want.

But I am happy to tell anyone that I do not know whether some sort of God exists, what the ultimate structure of the universe is, etc. (I’m a physicist, so I can give you a lot of details about what I and other physicists do not yet know in physics alone.)

I have always been bemused at how Christians claim to know so much about God and yet claim to be so humble. And, then they utterly ignore most of the commands of Jesus as given in the New Testament (“Turn the other cheek,” “Give all you have to the poor,” etc.)

That is why I refused to be baptized, join the church, etc. as a child, much to my parents’ annoyance: it was crystal-clear to me from a very young age (certainly by mid-grade school) that the Christians did not really believe in all this.. It was some kind of strange game they were playing, a weird shadowland drama.

As an adult, I understand it better now: I know my Durkheim, and so I understand that, in a sense, the real object of worship for nearly all the Christians I have ever known is not God or Christ but rather the social in-group.

That still seems to me bizarre and contemptible, but at least it is now comprehensible.

Strangely, when I have explained that I feel no need to conform to a group just for the sake of conforming, I have been lambasted by some religious folks as a deeply inhuman person. Clearly, some of them understand what the true basis of their "faith" is: not devotion to “God,” but just frat boys who want to “belong.”

Dave Miller in Sacramento

PhysicistDave said...

John,

I think I may have known one truly humble Christian. He was a substitute teacher for a week or so at my high school, and, although he was a pious Christian and I was an atheist, we became friends. He truly was concerned about what Christ’s injunctions in the New Testament required – from “Turn the other cheek,” and “Resist not evil,” to “Give all you have to the poor.” He seemed to actually care not about what he wanted, but about the right thing to do. His attitude really seemed to be, “I’m really not sure what Christ wants, but I’d like to know.” He did not try to convert me; he seemed more concerned with figuring out what was wrong with himself than with me.

Although, perhaps, in a way, he did succeed with me, since I still think of him as an admirable person, even though I disagreed with him.

I don’t know what happened to him. Trying to truly live by the precepts of the New Testament does not seem to me the basis for a good life, but I would like to know how it worked out for him.

Of the hundreds (thousands?) of other Christians I have known well during the last half century, I cannot think of anyone else at all who actually cared about being a follower of Christ, versus being an admired, or at least accepted, member of the church.

Dave

PhysicistDave said...

Phil wrote:
> As to the two terms... I would just go with the dictionary definitions.
>Bashing in this case -
verbal abuse, as of a group or a nation: feminist-bashing; China-bashing.
>and Debunking...
>to expose or excoriate (a claim, assertion, sentiment, etc.) as being pretentious, false, or exaggerated: to debunk advertising slogans.

Phil, in complete honesty, using those definitions, don’t you think that anyone who has been “debunked” will feel that they have been “bashed.”

Like the conjugation of the word “firm”:
I’m firm.
You’re stubborn.
He’s pigheaded.

Dave

PhysicistDave said...

Phil wrote:
> Now while I toddle off and play with my bible maybe you should try and engage with it rather than making debasing comments about me and other Christians, because in the end this is all you are doing?

Why?

That is a sincere question. Why would any of us who are not true believers want to engage the Bible as opposed to say Nietzsche’s writings, or Thoreau’s writings, or H. L. Mencken’s writings, or whatever.

Am I misunderstanding you that you think it should be obvious to us that the Bible is worth engaging?

In all honesty, I have always found the Bible very, very boring, very , very mean-spirited, and a real downer. I feel an obligation to learn about it because of its historical and sociological significance, but I really have trouble making myself deal with it.

Do you really not know that to most non-Christians “engaging” the Bible is about as appealing as cleaning toilets, and seems to serve less purpose?

Dave

John W. Loftus said...

Thanks Dave, that is an example of a humble man and I agree that is a rare breed.

And everyone, this Dave Miller has a very keen intellect, amazing in some ways, and I don't say this just because we agree.

John W. Loftus said...

For anyone interested I have enough problems dealing with utterly stupid people than to have to deal with utterly stupid accusations from people who have been repeatedly banned for doing so like Morrison, Andrew, Winston Smith, DM, and others.

PhysicistDave said...

Well, John, perhaps it wold be more accurate to say that I have a very strange set of interests!

Not too many atheist physicists have an honest interest in primitive Christianity. And then there is my interest in the political thought of the English Civil War, and in the theory of infinite sets… and despite my very harsh criticisms of Ed Feser, I am genuinely interested to hear what he has to say about Aquinas and Scholasticism. Oh, and I like C. S. Lewis, even though I think he is completely wrong on religion.

Gets me into all sorts of trouble.

Dave

ildi said...

I always thought Jimmy Carter was a good example of a humble Christian. Maybe that's what made him less than a success as a president?

Chuck O'Connor said...

Phil

You claim to have a personal relationship with the most powerful being in the universe so why do you feel the need to get into a pissing contest with a "dim" atheist like me? It seems a bit insecure for a guy who entertains the connections you claim.

Brad Haggard said...

John, I think if you had any real interaction with Methodists early on you wouldn't think that way, because the focus is not on what people see, but on personal formation.

And why have you given up on substantive arguments? That's what I enjoyed about the interaction here, but I get the feeling that you're trying to compete with Jim West.

John W. Loftus said...

Brad i haven't given up on substantive arguments. There are plenty of them on this front page. But I'm in the midst of writing and editing another book. I like being ranked on top of the Biblioblogger list though, for several reasons.

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ exreformed

This is a debunking Christianity site not facebook!

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ PhysicistDave

You said,

Phil, in complete honesty, using those definitions, don’t you think that anyone who has been “debunked” will feel that they have been “bashed.”

My Reply,

Not in the slightest, John felt freedom as did Dan Barker when they left religion? Not one of them describes the experience as a bashing.

Phil

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ PhysicistDave

You said,

That is a sincere question. Why would any of us who are not true believers want to engage the Bible as opposed to say Nietzsche’s writings, or Thoreau’s writings, or H. L. Mencken’s writings, or whatever.

My Reply,

This was a quote to another person in direct reference to their misrepresentation of Christianity. Please read the comments carefully and show some hesitancy when entering an ongoing dialogue.

phil

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ Chuck,

You said,

You claim to have a personal relationship with the most powerful being in the universe so why do you feel the need to get into a pissing contest with a "dim" atheist like me? It seems a bit insecure for a guy who entertains the connections you claim.

My Reply,

Well chuck if you read again the comment strand you will notice that I did not get into anything with you. Rather it was you who ran into my question to someone else ad decided that a school yard name calling tactic was in order. Maybe you should ask that question of yourself, oh and I never called you 'dim' again you can re-read the comment strand to see that.

Phil

Harold said...

Phil,
I agree with you. This blog should be called bashing Christianity. That is all they do here. Yet this site is important. Christians need to see the dark side of non-belief. Materialist, naturalist and other non-believers like to act all tolerant and open minded. Yet the reality is that they are not. This blog is a good example of just how narrow minded, intolerant and prejudice non-believers can be.

Harold

John W. Loftus said...

Harold, you are clueless. Apparently you don't get around the web much if you think all we do here is bash Christianity. Visit a dozen other atheist sites if you want to see some bashing, okay, then come back and report back.

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ Harold

I think Harold I agree, sadly this site has become this way. In fact I have never seen John rebuke an atheist on this site not matter how rude they are yet the Christian trolls are banned. When I first started on this blog the posts were usually well thought through and presented a case against Christianity is some form. Sadly it has become a blog about debates that take place, promotions of books, stupid things Christians do, weird and wacky things Christians say and the list goes on. I am currently counting up the posts on this blog and placing them into categories and we will see shortly what percentage this site actually gives and has done to Debunking Christianity.

Phil

Harold said...

John,
I have gotten around the web a lot. I find that there are two types of atheist out there; the regularly atheist and the anti-theist atheist.

The anti-theist atheist like you are prejudice, narrow minded and intolerant. The regular atheist are polite and respectful of others beliefs.

Further more, it is irrelevant what the rest of the web is like. This blog is intolerant and prejudice against Christians.

No Christian should listen to anything any atheist says on this site. It would be a waste of their time. There are better atheistic web sites that deal fairly and honestly with Christianity. This place is just about atheist propaganda.


-Harold

exreformed said...

Rev Brown said
I am currently counting up the posts on this blog and placing them into categories and we will see shortly what percentage this site actually gives and has done to Debunking Christianity.

Wow! you actually have the time to do that? You must have one heck of a small church. Shouldn't you be visiting someone in the hospital, or doing house calls?

Gandolf said...

Harold said .."The regular atheist are polite and respectful of others beliefs."

Oh yeah .The type that politely put up with sexual abuse being hidden by the catholic church for years and years.Or politely put up with Jim Jones and Fred Phelps type.Politely put up with all the faithful folks terrorizing kids and threatening them with hell and brimstones.Politely put up with the theists groups splitting up families.Politely put up with "theist terrorism" of the christian kind,while bitching about the Islamist.

There is just not enough respect of theism.How will the abuse last in the future, without respect?

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

Dear exreformed,

You said,

Wow! you actually have the time to do that? You must have one heck of a small church. Shouldn't you be visiting someone in the hospital, or doing house calls?

My Reply,

Thanks for your comments on my job description. Would you like to count up the post for me?

Phil.

Chuck O'Connor said...

Phil,

You are still being defensive so my observation stands. You seem awful insecure for one who has a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. Your comments make me question the efficacy of Holy Spirit power.

How can Christians both be the elected people of god and be so uncomfortable with perceived temporal persecution.

You got eternity magic on your side Phil. I don't see how you could entertain the slightest offense from a godless fool like me.

Chuck O'Connor said...

Harold this is a straw-man,

"Materialist, naturalist and other non-believers like to act all tolerant and open minded. "

No. Being intolerant and cynical towards a way of knowing that has proven itself by history to be invalid is the reasonable and moral position.

Your superstitious approach to reality is silly, childish and insular. If I saw you face to face I'd say the same thing.

The truth is rude which you (as a Christian I presume) do not encounter because you surround yourself with people who embrace being "nice" as being moral and honest while you co-sign each other's bullshit.

exreformed said...

Rev Brown

Sure, I'll count them up. Send seventy five dollars to my pay pal account first.

Harold said...

Gandolf and Chuck,

First off, two wrongs do not make a right. Granted Christians have done things wrong in the past yet this does not justify your inappropriate behavior.

For instance let’s look at Anti-theist and Fred Phelps. Fred Phelps thinks what he is doing is morally correct just like you guys do. Fred Phelps thinks what he is doing is criticizing a delusional way of life just like you are doing.

What you and Fred Phelps are doing is call rationalizing. It is what people do to justify cruel behaviors. No matter the rational you use bashing and being so intolerant is abusive. It is wrong for Christians and it is wrong for everyone else. If you can be intolerant then so can Fred Phelps, fair is fair.

The molestation of little children by priest and the cover-up by the Vatican is wrong. Calling Christians brainwashed or fodder is also wrong and I would even say abusive. Calling people cruel names is not being critical. You can criticize with out name calling.

It is not the criticism that I have a problem with. It is the name calling. Additionally, if the criticism is not fair or objective then it is not criticism.

If the criticism is belittling or making incorrect negative stereotypes of a group then it is not criticism but a form of intolerance.

Fred Phelps is motivated by hate and I wonder what the motivation of the anti-theist is? I am sure some anti-theists are motivated by hate also.

-Harold

Gandolf said...

Harold says.."Fred Phelps is motivated by hate and I wonder what the motivation of the anti-theist is? I am sure some anti-theists are motivated by hate also."

Yes well its not honestly so very easy to actually "love" attitudes like Fred Phelps has, is it Harold.

Did you expect us to love it?.

Of course we are motivated by a great dislike of matters surrounding faith.

I cant say i love priests that cover up mass sex abuse either.Specially when they are popes and what-not.I hate it Harold.No im not about to "tolerate" it.It really sucks! big time!, when people tolerate Popes that try covering up sex abuse.Because they then tend to just keep! on doing it ! dont they Harold.Same with faith child abusers, who terrorize children with threat of hell.And nasty theist faiths who divide many families.

What do you expect me to feel about these people Harold.Should i love what they do?.Or should i really dislike it!,even hate it

Its all very fine saying "anti-theists are motivated by hate also"

But dont forget! there is actually some things that shouldnt be "loved" in this world Harold.Including Popes that hide childmolestor to save fame and money.Its righteous to dislike these things!.

Yeah we "really dislike" it heaps! So what? .

Why is that a problem?.

Harold says..."First off, two wrongs do not make a right. Granted Christians have done things wrong in the past yet this does not justify your inappropriate behavior."

Thats not always true Harold.For instance

1st wrong: It was wrong to keep slaves.

2nd wrong: And it was probably wrong to finally turn to violence! too,to try to help stop slavery.

Right: but still even so, we now no longer keep slaves.

and

1st wrong : Segregation and Racism was wrong

2nd wrong : the violence of the freedom fighters was wrong also.

Right : But we now no longer have apartheid

So sometimes two wrongs, make something finally come right.

Harold you seem to forget to "factor in" that sometimes! there is actually honestly some real good reason! for people to actually show some "real dislike" (hate)of some matters.Even matters about faith.

I think maybe you have trouble with some "denial" issues .

Maybe you are "still" in some "denial" that worldwide there is actually honestly some very big problems surrounding many matters of faith.

Gandolf said...

Harold says..."What you and Fred Phelps are doing is call rationalizing. It is what people do to justify cruel behaviors. No matter the rational you use bashing and being so intolerant is abusive. It is wrong for Christians and it is wrong for everyone else. If you can be intolerant then so can Fred Phelps, fair is fair."

Harold dont twist matters.Its not honest.

1,Fred Phelps is already being so intolerant

2,We have reason to be intolerant! of people who are intolerent.


Why do you try making it seem me and Chuck "cause" Fred Phelps to be intolerent?.Fred Phelps is a very intolerent Christian,and we will not be tolerent of such intolerence.

That is a grave misjugment on your part Harold, suggesting we might have caused his intolerence.

You are intolerent of rapist too Harold .And i think you have "good reason" for your intolerence of rapists.

You say.."If you can be intolerant then so can Fred Phelps, fair is fair"

You might as well say if i cant learn to be tolerent of rapists ,then that should give them reason to rape.

No lets forget this silly rubbish thought that maybe everything gets sorted out by use of endless tolerence Harold.

You Christians have had thousands of years now to get more of these issues sorted out around faith.You dont seem to bother.Because our society has sadly simply been "far to tolerent" of faith abuse.

Chuck O'Connor said...

Harold,

My wife is a Christian. Two of my best friends operate as deacons at the church I was once a member of. They can believe and celebrate their beliefs as much as they want.

Fred Phelps wants legislation that would kill homosexuals for being who they are.

I appreciate freedom of speech.

And last night I exercised my freedom of speech and let my wife know that I think christianity is wishful thinking that makes people feel good and has no objective standard for knowing its right.

I think christian theology is nothing more than emotionalism and redaction.

Your argument equating my distaste for you what you believe, yet willingness to allow your beliefs, with Fred Phelps picketing the funerals of soldiers and wanting a Levitical standard of law shows the flabby intellect faith feelings engender.

You don't like that I don't like your superstition. Get over it. My dislike of your beliefs has nothing in common with Phelps bigotry.

If you are going to be as thin-skinned as you seem to be then I'd suggest ignoring atheist web sites.

The examples Gandolf proposes defeats the doctrine of the Holy Spirit and, in my mind, requires faith to have a special exemption we wouldn't provide other forms of knowing.

Be what you wish to seem. You assert personal relationship with the creator of the universe yet christianity is no more moral and in many ways less wise than institutions not claiming that.

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ exreformed

You said,

Sure, I'll count them up. Send seventy five dollars to my pay pal account first.

My Reply,

Why don't I donate it to my church after all according to you its pretty small and I have heaps to do?

Phil

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ Chuck

You said,

You are still being defensive so my observation stands.

My Reply,

And you are still being offensive and rude so your observations falls.

You said,

You seem awful insecure for one who has a personal relationship with the creator of the universe.

My Reply,

When did you get a degree is psychology, oh that's right you don't have one so your opinion is just that.

You said,

How can Christians both be the elected people of god and be so uncomfortable with perceived temporal persecution.

My Reply,

Probably the same way an atheists who hates indoctrination and brainwashing is just as intolerant and rude to anyone who does not share his/her worldview?

You said,

I don't see how you could entertain the slightest offense from a godless fool like me.

My Reply,

I don't I call you on it.

Phil

Chuck O'Connor said...

Phil,

Methinks you protest too much.

You're don't get it do you? Your defensiveness (by responding to me you inhabit a defensive character) defeats any assertion to extra-sensory knowledge and confidence in Jesus.

Whatever happened to turning the other cheek Phil? And before you say I need to do it first remember I am an apostate. You are ordered to turn the other cheek. Start doing it boy or you will be seen for the superstitious fraud you are.

Reverend Phillip Brown said...

@ Chuck,

Your right.

P

Harold said...

Gandolf and Chuck,

“Because our society has sadly simply been "far to tolerant" of faith abuse.”

The problem is that you are not just being intolerant of people like Fred Phelps but also you are being intolerant of innocent Christians who have done nothing wrong.

Humans create stereotypes and this is a normal function. It can be good or bad. Anti-theists have developed a negative and inappropriate stereotype. This stereotype leads to intolerant behavior toward all religious people. This is the problem and this is the reason why I am discussing the intolerance of the anti-theist. When John Loftus calls Christians on this blog “fodder” and define it as a person of “little value” this is also abuse. Anti-theists like other intolerant people are making negative generalizations about a group of people. These generalizations give the wrong impression that all people in this group fit this generalization.

For example, all Christians are stupid or irrational or of little value or their beliefs cause abuse. This intolerance ignores the reality that groups are not black and white and that issues of beliefs are more complex than you realize.

For instance the 9/11 terrorist attack according to the experts was motivated by politics and not religion. However, our brains want a short and simple answer, which is Islam, is just a violent religion. When in reality Islam is a complex religion with a diverse group of people who are not easily lumped in together. Some are violent some are not violent and some are in between.

My problem is that anti-theists are making negative and incorrect generalization which, leads to the dehumanizing of Christians or other people of faith. When we dehumanize groups of people we are doing something inappropriate. One can disagree or be repulsed by some one like Fred Phelps with out dehumanizing a whole group of people. Ridicule and bashing are not okay at any time, they are a way of being intolerant.


-Harold