Quote of the Day by a Christian Named Marcus McElhaney
Emory and Greg, I concede that the Bible is indeed confusing...to both of you! Other people don't agree with you[r or] Greg's thoughts on how confusing the Bible is. Maybe you just need to study harder.This quote is utterly ridiculous to the nth degree. If we study harder then we'd come to Marcus's conclusions, right? Right! With thinking skills like the ones Marcus displays here at DC, no wonder he believes. If Marcus is the example then we need to be almost brain dead to believe.
93 comments:
Oh, I hate that kind of condescending statement. "If you don't understand/believe in God/the Bible/an afterlife, it's your fault. Yer doin' in wrong."
That should say "it," not "in."
To be fair, Marcus is not stupid, but his beliefs force him to defend an irrational position.
I'm usually told that I need to read the Bible with the assistance of the "Holy Ghost". Which is even funnier, cause then it's not my fault, it's the fault of my Bible tutor that never shows up.
Studying harder works if what you're studying is a useful proposition that refers to something in the world.
I'd go so far to suggest that perhaps our friend Marcus might want to try to read the text with a critical eye, without plugging up the holes with cultural accretions and theological sophistry.
@Ryan- I agree with you that Marcus is not stupid, but he is delusional in this one area of his life like so many intelligent believers I know.
Like Bob Price says, Marcus has turned the Bible into a ventriloquist dummy that will say whatever Marcus wants it to say.
Marcus thinks this is proper "exegesis."
I think he said he's a minister or in training to be a minister--if so, I'm sure his locutions will earn him a nice living fleecing the flock.
"I'm sure his locutions will earn him a nice living fleecing the flock."
Well, he's earned it. He's the hardest studier!
The way it is known whether you have studied the bible hard enough or not is whether you agree with Marcus.
(But, given my past experience with him, he has exactly the same opinion about the Koran: you haven't read it carefully unless you have concluded it contradicts itself by failing to endorse the bible on every point, like Marcus thinks).
To Marcus, all the different scriptures are his own personal suckpuppets.
I can also relate to Vic's response above..."you don't have enough faith" or "call on the holy spirit when you read the bible" or "use your heart, not your brain" (whatever!)...another words "we will tell you what to think as you don't need to think for yourself" ;)
"we will tell you what to think as you don't need to think for yourself"
And we know what to think because some other guy told us!
Ryan Anderson said..."To be fair, Marcus is not stupid, but his beliefs force him to defend an irrational position."
Yes i do pretty much agree with you Ryan. http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/early
/2010/03/12/scan.nsq023
Devotion to power of charisma can most likely make almost anyone irrational about matters.
Just so happens, faiths are often an extremely charismatic power.Hence why its trapped so very many.Even the folks who are otherwise obviously so very intelligent.
If only they took a little more time and thought more "deeply" about reasons how it might ever happen to be, that other "very intelligent" folks ,can be seen to also become caught up in the many totally crazy Christian cults as well.For it is with use of this so called holy spirit ,that Jim Jones followers met their fate ,and Russian orthodox doomsday Christians, wasted their time freezing in caves in winter,even putting their very own young children and flesh and blood directly in harms way.
They might then start to understand there is some extremely valid reasons why humans honestly do need to use scepticism and more common sense.And not let themselves be led like sheep.
The atheist idea of there likely not being any life after death, cannot really be said as an idea thats honestly so very charismatic.
However sadly charismatic ideas are not always so very helpful to us humans in the long run ,as Jim Jones and the Russian orthodox Christians so aptly proved.And the aftermath of people like George Bush, in my "opinion" also help prove that the power of charisma can be very dangerous.
Personally i dont agree with Marcus much.But i can honestly say i dont feel any hate for Marcus either.
Jim said..."I think he said he's a minister or in training to be a minister--if so, I'm sure his locutions will earn him a nice living fleecing the flock."
Yeah and this makes matters extremely all the more "charismatically powerful" .Which also works to help further deeply ingrain the depth of "devotion".
Jim , I.M.H.O id say maybe? its even far more about all the "charisma" and warm fuzzie feelings gained from it ,than being so much about the matter of money.
When I studied the Bible with leaders who had me look at certain parts and interpreted them in warm fuzzy ways, all was well. When I went off to read on my own, i.e. study harder, that's when i got into trouble. Discovered multiple versions of creation that could not mesh with each other, all the wacky stuff in the old testament laws that we disregard to pick and choose a few, the erros in the gospels if you try to make a jesus timeline, some incredible terrible violence apparently sanctioned and even directed by god, and so much more. it was studying the bible harder that led to the gradual erosion of any belief. would god's word actually be so ambisuous or needing of interpretation as to allow someone to fall away from him by deeper study? think not. could men over many centuries of changing society write such a nonsensical gibberish? more likely.
I agree it's obviously non-sensical and downright stupid..but as a person seeking for truth and attempting to overcome my christian upbringing, I come to this site to be intellectually stimulated. Not to pickapart a ridiculous comment from one person. I would say the amount of christians that think this way are in the minority. And I understand you are trying to cover the shallow stupidity of christians too...but this is too easy. If I started an argument with a 10 year old on the authenticty of the bible, I would look pretty good by the end of the argument too.
With respect.
@Jim
I'm a minister of the Church of God in Christ. I make no money from my ministry. It isn't about that. You show a lot of ignorance in such a thought. I'm not saying that there aren't people trying to fleece people. I'm not. Those "minister" and "prophets" who are doing that will face judgement.
6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! - Matthew 18:6-7
I trust God to sort that out.
To everyone
I know that some people think that Christians should not think. They think that faith is a matter that is contradictory to reason. They think that reason can't be reconciled and that the Bible is hopelessly contradictory. I also understand that many of you have asked Christians questions and were given the impression that no one can know the answer and you took it to mean that there are no good answers.
I disagree with those people who blindly accept the Bible. No where does the Bible tells us to check our brains at the altar when we embrace Christ.
When I say study more I really believe that to some extent any reasonable person, who checks in their presuppositions, will be able to make some sense out of the Bible...at least enough to see Jesus as Lord and Savior. We are without excuse because God has given you everything you need to move towards coming to Christ as Acts 17 clearly says. When I say study harder I mean you must take the Bible in its context. I know for sure that the way you and I read the text does not lead to the same conclusions as the original receivers of the text because they knew the context. In order to get a more fuller understanding of , for example, Ephesians 5 means something different from the point of view of a first century person sitting in church than you have in the 21st century.
Many intelligent people accept the Bible. Accusing Christians of being delusional or crazy or insane is not true. Very dishonest.
Was Isaac Newton crazy?
Was DeCartes crazy?
Was Pascal Crazy?
Is Stephen Meyer stupid?
Are any of the people insane? What about Liebnetz, Michael Faraday? Maxwell? Noble?
Are any of you smarter or more informed than them?
I hope no one is that arrogant.
What about Nietzsche? Did he go insane? Yup when he fully embraced all the consequences of atheism he went nuts. IT's not too late for most of you.
Hey, since you posted this twice in two different threads. I'm gonna assume you really want an answer.
First and foremost, Peter is not quoting Psalms 90:4. Neither passage shares the same context. There is no contradiction or mistranslation or mistake here. Unless you wanna count yours.
Marcus.
I'm sorry. I meant the quote from the book of peter.
We know peter didn't write that book.
But the guy or guys who did write it mangled psalms 90:4.
@Marcus I'm a minister of the Church of God in Christ...
Ahhh.. a spirit filled Evangelical even... much more a "true Christian" marked with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
Many intelligent people accept the Bible. Accusing Christians of being delusional or crazy or insane is not true. Very dishonest.
Sorry Marcus... it's based on facts... not saying an intelligent person can't have faith... but it's a fact that studies show the lower a person’s IQ, the more likely he is to follow Christianity or another religion... whereas the higher his IQ, the more likely he is to be an atheist, an agnostic or a freethinker.
Stats are stats no dishonesty involved... for dishonesty I am very tempted to accuse you of being dishonest with a statement like...
I disagree with those people who blindly accept the Bible.
Can you give ONE example where you do not agree with the Bible?
If you can't I would take that as a pretty disingenuous and dishonest statement on your part.
@Dan
I said
I disagree with those people who blindly accept the Bible.
In the context of disagreeing with people who think they shouldn't think or have reasons why they believe what they believe. I disagree with their way of thinking. I agree that the Bible is 100% correct. You took me out of context.
Marcus, I'd be very careful with this "argument from authority".
Scientists are a lot less religious than the society they come from. Disbelief borders on 90% among the most prominent scientists, members of the National Academy of Sciences.
No, Newton wasn't insane. But neither was Einstein, the pantheist follower of Baruch Spinoza, who believed in no god other than the nature itself. As for Nitsche, it is unfortunate that he lived in the pre-penicillin era. He need not have gone insane.
However, in our current world, anyone who thinks the world is 6000 years old is delusional. Unlike Newton.
Ooh, and there is still hope for you. To embrace the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
RAmen
Marcus said "What about Nietzsche? Did he go insane? Yup when he fully embraced all the consequences of atheism he went nuts."
Like no Christian's have ever went nuts. Or do you want to play No True Scotsman?
Also, you (we) have no idea what actually caused Nietzsche's breakdown.
Hi Marcus
You ask: [My Reply]
Was Isaac Newton crazy? [No]
Was DeCartes crazy? [No]
Was Pascal Crazy? [No]
Is Stephen Meyer stupid? [YES]
Are any of the people insane? What about Liebnetz [probably], Michael Faraday [No]? Maxwell? [No] Noble [No]?
A fair assessment I would say, wouldn't you?
Cheers
Incidnetally, is there a reason men of god are so stunningly
condescending and offensive?
With all the accusations of rudeness against Dawkins I have never heard him say anything like " IT's not too late for most of you." Marcus obviously follows the same faith as Tomas de Torquemada.
Marcus McElhaney said..."Those "minister" and "prophets" who are doing that will face judgement."
Howdy Marcus.
This is something simply being assumed by you Marcus .You have no such proof to even suggest such a thing "will" happen.Its all about your faith, nothing more.
I have already pointed out i dont feel any hate for you Marcus,and i was also being very honest.
But please try to understand pointing straight back to things written in faith books all the time, just isnt good enough for many folks around here, just because it happens to be your personal faith.And you tend to make many folks get a little or even sometimes a lot pissed off about it , when you keep on purposely doing it.
They purposely point out to you that this is all you do , and even ask you for something better .But then most often all you simply do is exactly the same thing again and again and again , making discussion with you seem so circular and endless.
Im only bothering to be saying what im saying here in this comment now,because i dont feel hatered towards you, and even realize yes your heart is most likely very much in the right place.And you most likely care about people.
Im just trying to explain what it might be that helps get some peoples attempts at discussion with you, a little heated at times.And then you can choose to think about it a little or not.Specially if you like to believe you do honestly care about people!
Maybe you will be using your faith to translate these "heated comments" as maybe being forfilling of bible prophesy etc ,and yes it might even give you a bit of a faith buzz.
But the real truth is peoples comments only get heated towards you ,simply because its not really any honest discussion thats happening here at all.Its only blatant use of your faith indoctrination you attempt! time and time again ,over and over .Like its a stuck record.
And then thats what causes the heated comments !.And no! , we honestly dont need any ancient prophesy to be able to understand there is plenty of good natural reasons for that.No superstitious prophesys needed !!
I simply dont really much enjoy seeing this keep happening to you Marcus.Yes i might be atheist, but that dont simply mean it make me not care about anybody.Just trying to point a few things out and explain how maybe? you might be bringing much of it on yourself.
Gandolf.
Marcus likes to assert things that he has no proof for.
He actually asserted that 2nd Peter 3:8 has no precedent in Psalms 90:4.
He's funny that way...
keith said... "Gandolf.
Marcus likes to assert things that he has no proof for.
He actually asserted that 2nd Peter 3:8 has no precedent in Psalms 90:4.
He's funny that way..."
Hi Keith.
I have to say in my opinion i think underneath everything Marcus is very intelligent in many ways.But sadly devotion on things of charisma can make even the most intelligent of us humans, become a little thick about some things.
Its not our intelligence that causes this problem though , its more about the "charisma" and "devotion" that then simply tells parts of our brains to simply shut down.Parts of our brains that usually do deal with scepticism and making calculated decisions that have been properly thought through and so have taken account of matters from looking from "every single" angle.
While Marcus is very intelligent it seems he cant see its obvious the bible is honestly obviously a terrible manual ! if its supposed said to be devine manual to help us humans.And so Marcus cannot even allow himself to see scripture is obviously honestly not easy to understand at all.
Marcus may very well have some specialist type of magical translation of these scriptures, and even be able to connect them in some majical way , kind of like somebody having a go at deciphering the Da Vinci Code.
But then what Marcus fails to understand is this does little to help the average Joe blogs human do the same .Neither does it do much at all to help suggest maybe this bible manual honestly looks like its actually anything that can be said as so very devine.
Because the fact still remains its been a curse on earth thats a right mess and has honestly been the cause of many problems and lots of extreme pain heartbreak and even lots of death.
And so even that fact alone! says this bible is not honestly so very devine , doesnt it Keith.
However because Marcus feel he can translate it some special way .His devotion tells his brain, that this some how makes it all work out just fine and dandy.
Its a bit like the charisma that causes such devotion , that allows Hitler followers or people like Kim Jung-il etc , forget about hurt and pain and death caused by their own beliefs .
Parts of their mind shuts down too , that are supposed to be used! to help remind them and help them realize , honestly somethings still very wrong.But instead their brain tells them they have everything worked out ,so that to them makes everything fine.
Keith my own cult family still stuck in an abusive Christian cult ,many are very intelligent ,yet still they too have this very same problem.
I disagree with their way of thinking. I agree that the Bible is 100% correct.
Your words are a Sales tactic Marcus... and it IS dishonest.
But of course that depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.
@3g.nursing
At one time most of the "scientific" community denied a heliocentric solar system. I'm not arguing from authority any more than you do.
I'm not aware of Nietzsche insanity being cause by a biological cause. I've heard that it may be because he had syphilis, but I expect it was because he fully experienced the final result of atheism. Agree or disagree...doesn't matter. Often I've been accused of circular reasoning because I use the Bible to prove the Bible. And you have given me an opportunity to address that. I have never said the Bible is true because it says so. Most of the time when I quote the Bible it is to show how someone here has mangled the text to say something it does not say. When I want to prove the Bible is true I use history, science, and outside evidences to show it's true. When I want to show that someone has accused the Bible of saying something that it does not say. For example the crap about the earth being 6000 years old - The Bible does not say that and I am offended that it keeps getting trotted out. If you are going to keep saying that then prove it says that.
BTW So it is not stunningly condescending or offensive to lump theists with idiots who deny the holocaust as Richard Dawkins has done? Or to refer to misrepresent what the Bible say about slavery, women, children? Hmmm. Sounds like a double standard.
@ Keith
Be honest. By your "exegesis" the Millennial Kingdom was inspired by Psalms and 2nd Peter. Just because the number 1000 was used in all three places does not mean they are related. I don't think such reasoning is funny. It's dishonest and silly. Where is your proof? They don't have the same context. Nor making the same point. It's not exegesis. it's eisogesis. IF you are not not going to do it correctly, leave the exegesis to others.
@Papalinton
No I don't think your assessment is fair at all. Stephen Meyer is not stupid. I know his credentials. What are yours? By what evidence you have that he is wrong?
The same for Liebnetz. Why do you think he may have been crazy? The man independently figured out Calculus. (So did Newton). He is one of the greatest mathematicians ever. What have you done lately?
@Marcus.
More assertions huh?
Where in the bible does God say a day is 1000 years to him?
The new testament refers constantly to verses in the old that are out of context like the virgin birth story and the 30 pieces of silver for instance.
The writer of peter took psalms 90:4 out of context to create 2nd Peter 3:8.
Stop asserting shit and prove that 2nd Peter 3:8 has no basis in psalms 90:4.
If you can't then your whole "jesus can show up thousands of years later and that's still soon" bullshit is blown the fuck out of the water.
Your "trust me, you've got it all wrong" act aint gonna cut it.
Marcus: "When I say study more I really believe that to some extent any reasonable person, who checks in their presuppositions, will be able to make some sense out of the Bible...at least enough to see Jesus as Lord and Savior."
Ahahahahahhahahah! Oh, that's a good one! Thanks, Marcus, I haven't had that good a chuckle...
Oh, wait, you're serious.
"Check your presuppositions." That's rich.
@Keith
You said The new testament refers constantly to verses in the old that are out of context like the virgin birth story and the 30 pieces of silver for instance.
Not all scholars agree with that. It's flatout dishonest to make it seem like every scholar agrees with you. I did prove that 2 Peter is not regurgitating Psalms. The two passages are not even about the same thing. In 2nd Peter, a metaphor is being made showing that time is not something God is bound by. Just saying look 1000 years is found in both passages does not mean they are related in any way. You are one who failed."soon" is relative to whatever God ssys it is...not what you think.
@Marcus,
This invisible friend of yours allegedly created the known universe, established laws of physics, knows the thoughts, desires and intentions of every human being that ever lived or will ever live, answers the prayers of billions of human beings daily, gives eternal life (if you kiss his rear end, otherwise tortured)... yet he/it is an absolute failure at creating a guide that is not confusing. A guide that does not create wars, genocide, murder, grief, torture and all around pure evil.
Isn't that weird?
Contrast this with McDonalds. At this restaurant with only a brief period of training a teenager with zero work experience can learn how to cook burgers and make change. This is due to a very clear guide book and very clear training. Simple.
Why is your god so inept that he can't create one book that everyone can understand? Literally millions of human beings have been killed precisely because of the confusing words in your holy book - by believers.
There is only one plausible reason: He/it does not exist.
Responding to Gandalf's post:
@Dude
There is only one plausible reason: He/it does not exist.
It think this alternative is more reasonable:
People twisting scriptures to say things it doesn't say to legitimize the evil in their hearts that they really wanted to do in illiterate culture who did not have the access or opportunity to see if they were right. Truth is we are worse than they because the Bible is readily available and most folks don't take the time to search them for the truth. Don't be like them.
In case anyone missed JP Holding's reponse to this post you can use this following link to get to it and my comments on Holding's astute observation.
Debunking Loftus: Setting John Straight: Maybe He Needs an Outsider Test?
Hey, having just gone there Marcus I must say the poll in the upper right hand corner at that idiot loser's site is very interesting. Is that not the hoot?
Hi Marcus
You say,,..."No I don't think your assessment is fair at all. Stephen Meyer is not stupid. I know his credentials. What are yours? By what evidence you have that he is wrong?"
Meyer is part of Discovery Institute, isn't he? 'Nuff said.
A turkey with a PhD is still a turkey.
Cheers
@Papalinton
Meyer is part of Discovery Institute, isn't he? 'Nuff said.
A turkey with a PhD is still a turkey.
Nah! I can't let you skate on that. Tell me why the science in the Signature of the Cell and I want page numbers and sources for why he is wrong. Otherwise you are being unfair and dishonest about why He's stupid. Your argument is "Meyer is wrong because I disagree with him". I want more than a baseless assertion.
Marcus.
Where did I say that every scholar agrees with me?
Many do, shit I'd venture to say MOST do.
Wanna take that bet?
The new testament uses the virgin birth in isaiah out of context and the statement about the 30 pieces of silver in the old testament out of context but you claim that because 2nd Peter doesn't have the same context as Psalms 90:4 there's no connection?
What scholars back that shit you're kicking?
@Keith.
Name names.
James White, NT Wright, Dan Wallace, Gary Habermas, Ben Witherington III, Craig Blomberg, and others agree with the traditional interpretation.
I'd like you to name a single scholar who thinks that 2 Peter 3:8 is a misunderstanding of Psalm 90:4. In order to make that fly you have to prove the two passages conflict.
As for Matthew taking Isaiah 7:14 out of context I quote:
"There is no appearance of "almah" in the Old Testament where the meaning "virgin" cannot be used. Betuluh, on the other hand, often needs qualification to clarify whether or not "virgin" is intended." Genesis 24:16 and Joel 1:8 are examples where betuluh can mean young woman or married woman respectively. The kicker for me is that when those Jews translated the Hebrew texts to Greek (called the Septuagint...a couple of centuries before Jesus), they translated the "almah" in this context with the word "parthenos" - unambiguously "virgin". I think they knew Hebrew and Greek better than you do.
Another clue is the word translated "sign" - "ot" it always refers to something special or distinctive. Sometimes in the Old Testament it's been translated as "miracle"! A young woman given birth to a son is not miraculous. My wife did that last year and my mom did it 4 times. Your mom did it. That's not miraculous in a supernatural sense and "ot" would never be used to describe and ordinary birth. However a son born to woman who is a virgin - that's miraculous.
Then there is the matter of "Immanuel". Immanuel means "God With Us." In Jesus God is quite literally God with us - God incarnated in Human flesh. Right there...700 years before Jesus' birth.
QED!
One more thing to everyone...and this is an important point. You can argue that Isaiah and Matthew are wrong all you want. You are perfectly within your right to think that if it makes it easier to live in denial. But what you cannot honestly do is claim that Matthew is wrong about what Isaiah prophesied! That is a different question. Exegeting the text is not about proving the text is right it's to prove that Keith is wrong in his interpretation. If you want to argue about if the content is true...we can do that. I just see it as fallacious to move the goal post saying that Isaiah said nothing about a virgin birth or about Jesus' deity, while Isaiah 7:14, 9:6 clearly say these things. If you can't see it, I'm more than happy to step through them...phrase by phrase. Then we can discuss whether its true once we have a consensus about what it says.
Marcus,
The prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 isn't "And a virgin...shall call his name 'Jesus' and he shall be God with Us." The prophecy is that she shall call his name Immanuel. She didn't.
Isaiah 9:6 doesn't prophecy anything more specific than "a son shall be born." Wow, that's impressive. A son shall be born.
I mean, c'mon.
@Clamat
Marcus,
The prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 isn't "And a virgin...shall call his name 'Jesus' and he shall be God with Us." The prophecy is that she shall call his name Immanuel. She didn't.
First at the time "Immanuel" is not a proper name...it was a title. And you misquoted the text.
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Do you know what "Jesus" means? "Yahweh saves" Yahweh is God's proper name.
Isaiah 9:6 doesn't prophecy anything more specific than "a son shall be born." Wow, that's impressive. A son shall be born.
The verse says:
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Not specific. This child will have the government on his shoulders, he will be called wonderful counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace. I don't know of any one who fits that other than Jesus the Christ.
I mean, c'mon.
Indeed...c'mon. Surely you can do better than that.
Hi Marcus
You ask, ..."Tell me why the science in the Signature of the Cell and I want page numbers and sources for why he is wrong?"
Papalinton
Because the interpretation of the 'science' in the 'Signature of the Cell' is religious vomit at best.
Marcus you should go over to the Biologos website, a site for genuine scientists who happen to be devout believers, and see what they say about Meyer's book. In fact here is the address for a whole lot of debate over Meyer's claims:
http://biologos.org/search/results/?query_extra=-originurlextension%3Apdf&keywords=signature+of+the+cell&x=0&y=0&app_id=_6VBd63IkY2Z0T5rHdYwHgH5dhkOXMpIpRw0_k_m&term_el=keywords&sites=biologos.org
I also add this from one of the commentaries at that address, it won't be difficult to find:
"Why does Meyer write a book that puts his ignorance on such display? He answers this question on page 450. Meyer wants to believe in intelligent design because he wants to avoid an "absence of meaning in modern life". He writes, "the theory of intelligent design … affirm[s] that the ultimate cause of life is personal".
'Nuff said, Marcus. A turkey with a PhD is still a turkey.
Cheers
Hi Marcus
"James White, NT Wright, Dan Wallace, Gary Habermas, Ben Witherington III, Craig Blomberg, and others agree with the traditional interpretation."
Papalinton
These authors are the foot soldiers of the Apologetics brigade. The bible is the only book I know that has an apologetics cadre that seeks to harmonise, syncretise, to put pure spin on the crap that goes for christian theology. It tries very hard to sugar-coat what smart people are now seeing for the first time, a pile of sloppy d*ng. It seeks to apologise for the drivel that they claim to be a serious worldview.
Fortunately, the wheels of the apologetics cart are falling off and no amount of divine intervention is going to be able to put the wood-bearing wheels back on for much longer.
Reading these authors to prop up the christianities is akin to believing Benny Hinn can cure disease and scizophrenia with the push of his gold and diamond encrusted fingers.
Enough is enough already.
Sheesh
@ Marcus
"But what you cannot honestly do is claim that Matthew is wrong about what Isaiah prophesied! "
"Isaiah prophesied..." ? Listen to yourself as you say this Marcus. This is neanderthal thinking; this is what people with tarot cards and crystal balls and tealeaves do all the time through out history. Palm readers, for christ sake! And you belief all this occultic stuff?
Matthew affirming Isaiah's prophecy is woo-woo stuff. The occurrence of Matthew's woo position is that he scanned the old testament and found the phrase he was looking for and declared it as Isaiah's prophecy. Nothing more, nothing less. Just a simple case of divine woo-woo that simply would not even get to first base in today's world. I call this 'retrospective prophesying'. Theologians still practice it this very day. The 'big bang' of cosmology justifies Genesis; the discovery of genes and DNA is now co-opted or appropriated by theists to support their woo-woo about intelligent design. The fundamental premise on which the christianities free ride on the hard work of scientists, medical research, cosmology, physics is nothing short of lazy, intellectually bereft parasitism.
C'mon Marcus! Your holey bible has not advanced since 325CE since the Council of Nicea.
Sheesh
@Papalinton
So, then there are no scholars who would agree with Keith!? Shocking. Okay.
We'll see if he can dig up any. As for your assessment of the men on my list your critique isn't true. All of them are capable and respected theologians, teachers, and scholars. What have you done in the field such that you feel qualified to deride their credentials?
Comparing them to Benny Hinn is like comparing a great surgeon to Sweeney Todd.
Most scholars agree that Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6 were written at least 700 years before Jesus' birth. If you want to deny that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born...we can debate that. What you can't debate is that a virgin birth was referred to in the Book of Isaiah.\
You said
C'mon Marcus! Your holey bible has not advanced since 325CE since the Council of Nicea.
Sheesh
Do you know what Christians believe? That is the point. The Bible hasn't needed to evolve or change. Science is catching up. Thanks for making my point for me.
I doubt you are denying the Big Bang Cosmology or genetics or anything in Physics. That's crazy. You seem to think that none of it is in the Bible. The Bible does not tell us everything about how the universe works. I look to science to understand how God has fashioned this world not as an excuse to not investigate nature. I sure would like to know who you have been talking to to get these ideas your spouting off. I don't look at the world that way. Neither does any Christian who believes that we honor God with our minds and praise him when we study his creation and find out the truths in it.
Hi Marcus
Crap again, I'm sorry. Only the most contorted of exercises can posit Isaiah 7.14 to have anything to do with prophecy.
Christians often claim that Isaiah 7:14 ( is a prophecy about Jesus' virgin birth. However a careful reading of the excerpt dose not support such a stance, except by fractionally marginal inference by which time the substance of Isaiah 7.14 loses it original meaning and intent. [rose coloured glasses.] Context is critical with this proof-text, as it alone disproves the notion that this is a prophecy about Jesus, as we shall see below.
First, this was an event that would happen during the life of Ahaz; it was to be a sign for Ahaz. This was to happen long before Jesus may have existed.
Second, Jesus was never named Immanuel. Christians developed this doctrine via circular reasoning: “We believe that Jesus is God, therefore Jesus is Immanuel because Immanuel means “God with us.”” Aside from the fallacy, it is important to note that Hebrew names don't work like this - many Hebrew names contain "God" somewhere in them, but don't mean that the person named is divine.
Third, this states that the child would eat curds and honey when he knows to reject the wrong and choose the right. This doesn’t match the idea of a sinless Jesus, who supposedly always knew right form wrong, nor is there any account of a diet of curds and honey in the gospels.
Finally, it makes reference to the two kings that Ahaz dreads being laid to waste before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. That’s conclusive proof that this event happened during the reign of Ahaz, and not some future event.
One more thing about the virign birth - the word "virgin" never occurs here. In Hebrew, we have almah, which simply means a young woman. There is a specific word for virgin in Hebrew that isn’t used here, bethulah. Considering that properly translated it says young woman rather than virgin, there is no reason to assume that it corresponds to any virgin birth myth.
You draw a very long bow with a piddly arrow, Marcus. Indeed there are many theologians, deep believers that poo on this woo of Isaiah also.
Cheers
Marcus. WOW!! You named names but no direct quotes from anyone saying that they disagree with 2nd Peter 8:3 having been lifted badly from Psalms 90:4.
Here's what I got for ya...
Wesley's Notes
3:8 But be not ye ignorant - Whatever they are. Of this one thing - Which casts much light on the point in hand. That one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day -
Moses had said, Psalm 90:4, A thousand years in thy sight are as one day; which St. Peter applies with regard to the last day, so as to denote both his eternity, whereby he exceeds all measure of time in his essence and in his operation; his knowledge, to which all things past or to come are present every moment; his power, which needs no long delay, in order to bring its work to perfection; and his longsuffering, which excludes all impatience of expectation, and desire of making haste. One day is with the Lord as a thousand years - That is, in one day, in one moment he can do the work of a thousand years.
Therefore he is not slow: he is always equally ready to fulfil his promise. And a thousand years are as one day - That is, no delay is long to God. A thousand years are as one day to the eternal God.
Therefore he is longsuffering: he gives us space for repentance, without any inconvenience to himself.
In a word, with God time passes neither slower nor swifter than is suitable to him and his economy; nor can there be any reason why it should be necessary for him either to delay or hasten the end of all things.
How can we comprehend this? If we could comprehend it, St. Peter needed not to have added, with the Lord.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
8. be not ignorant-as those scoffers are (2Pe 3:5). Besides the refutation of them (2Pe 3:5-7) drawn from the history of the deluge, here he adds another (addressed more to believers than to the mockers): God's delay in fulfilling His promise is not, like men's delays, owing to inability or fickleness in keeping His word, but through "long-suffering."
this one thing-as the consideration of chief importance (Lu 10:42).
one day . thousand years-(Ps 90:4): Moses there says, Thy eternity, knowing no distinction between a thousand years and a day, is the refuge of us creatures of a day. Peter views God's eternity in relation to the last day: that day seems to us, short-lived beings, long in coming, but with the Lord the interval is irrespective of the idea of long or short. His eternity exceeds all measures of time: to His divine knowledge all future things are present: His power requires not long delays for the performance of His work: His long-suffering excludes all impatient expectation and eager haste, such as we men feel.
He is equally blessed in one day and in a thousand years. He can do the work of a thousand years in one day: so in 2Pe 3:9 it is said, "He is not slack," that is, "slow": He has always the power to fulfil His "promise."
thousand years as one day-No delay which occurs is long to God: as to a man of countless riches, a thousand guineas are as a single penny. God's oonologe (eternal-ages measurer) differs wholly from man's horologe (hour-glass). His gnomon (dial-pointer) shows all the hours at once in the greatest activity and in perfect repose. To Him the hours pass away, neither more slowly, nor more quickly, than befits His economy.
There is nothing to make Him need either to hasten or delay the end. The words, "with the Lord" (Ps 90:4, "In Thy sight"), silence all man's objections on the ground of his incapability of understanding this [Bengel].
-------------------
Notice how many times Psalms 90:4 pops up Marcus? SMH...
1,
Marcus McElhaney said...
Responding to Gandalf's post:"
My translation of Marcus blog post:
Boo hoo ! boo hoo .Im such a poor persecuted Christian ,its prophesy forfilled...it must be...Atheists get a little angry sometimes ,when they need to listen to all my endless lame excuses time and time again.Im Marcus, a theist! ,how dare they ever be so mean.
--------------------------
Marcus you blindly attempt to compare the idea of quantum mechanics , with the "will" of a "omnipotent supreme being" that supposed could easily "will itself" to "design" and "create" the "whole universe" with "such ease".
And yet very strangly we see this same "supreme being", obviously had so very much trouble!! just with even explaining himself properly to us humans , so it was easy for them all to understand?.
We need Marcus the great ,to help decipher holy book for us?.
Your God who could supposedly design and create the whole universe ,should have no trouble at all making sure the holy bible got written exactly as he wanted it Marcus.There is no good excuse why he couldnt easily do this.
Marcus your "charismatic devotion" is still shutting down the parts of the brain, that should usually allow you to understand!. we should have plenty! of reason! to expect far more of the "abilities of God" , than we should ever have any good reason to go expecing a (("non supreme being")) like quatum mechanics should have ability to make sure we human easily understand quantum mechanics.
You cant even honestly compare the two!.
Yet thats exactly what you do?.
Quantum mechanics , is not ! the omnipotent supreme being with its own "conscience" and "personality" and "will" , that suposedly easily designed and created the whole universe.And supposedly willed that we humans would get to know him !.He wanted us to know him ?, that should be very easy feat! for a "omnipotent supreme being"!
Had quantum mechanics , been another one of these "omnipotent supreme beings" with a "conscience" etc.. Then yes we then might have had some good honest reason to even compare the two.
But you know thats just not the case at all Marcus.
Yet you deceitfully try to keep on "bullshit" us with this crap apologetics, and compare two extremely different things Marcus .
One is a "omnipotent supreme being" with "conscience" that supposed designed! and created! the whole universe! with such ease! , the other is only just a mere scientific idea thats not even a "being" for cripes sake.
And then you -> boo hoo -> woe is me-> im such a persecuted Christian :( , when sometimes people like me tend to sometimes get a little sick of playing the merry-go-rounds games all the time.
2,
The fact you compare Gods with mere scientific ideas ,shows you cant even see how "very different" the two things really are.You are lost in charismatic devotion Marcus.
And you expect me to always have miles and miles of patience with it.Im supposed to learn to nod my head peacefully, and give in and simply learn to agree to agree, or something.
Im not allowed to get ever get a little sick of this merry-go-round deceitful type bull theist games you play and play again.
Did someone (wrongfully) try and tell you maybe i was the reincarnation Jesus or something Marcus?.
Im human Marcus.I get sick of playing these bullshit type games like theists connecting abilitys of mere quantum mechanics with the ability of "supreme godly beings".When its bullshit .The two things are so different.Gods could likely do so much more!
Ones a omnipotent supreme being Marcus .That supposedly pulled off the most amazing thing of creating the whole universe.
And yet we blatantly see it seems this God obviously has such extreme trouble? directing humans how to write his holy bible,so all people can easily understand ?.
Instead he allows a total balls-up book that in turn confuses very many ! causing many problems
Just that for starters dont even make any good reasonable sense Marcus.
Its more gobble-dee-gook , like much of your holy bible also be.
Now i dont grant you that we should only expect the same of the ability of Gods , as we would do of the idea of quantum mechanics.
1,One is a omnipotent supreme being with a conscience and a will.
2, While the other, only a scientific idea .
Marcus i am not! the only one around here to get a little pissed off with you often at time.
So i suggest it dont suggest your problem is only -> boo hoo Gandolf is always just such a meany
Yes it might sound charismatic for your devotional ideas of filling prophesys, of supposedly being the persecuted Christian blah blah bleat bleat
But that dont mean it proves its "honestly" so.
Marcus,
Surely you know what a self-fulfilling prophecy is? Everything you’re saying is the flip-side (Papalinton’s “retrospective prophesying”): “Jesus the Christ” fits the title “Immanuel” and “Wonderful Counsellor” because you want him to, and despite your insistence, none of the Isaiah “prophecies” say anything specific about Jesus.
By your own admission “Jesus” and “Immanuel” do not mean the same thing, so we’re agreed the reference to “Immanuel” Isaiah 7:14 doesn’t say anything specific about Jesus of Nazareth.
My wife and I are devout Jews. She got pregnant before we had sex, but she insisted she was a virgin. Prove she wasn’t. My wife named our son Immanuel. By this one fact he fits the prophecy better than Jesus does, as does any kid named Immanuel. (Kant was co-Savior, apparently.) Our nicknames for him are Wonderful Counsellor and Prince of Peace. The “government is on his shoulders” because he is a citizen, a voter, a taxpayer and wants to be a senator. He’s now even closer to the prophecy than Jesus (how was the government on his shoulders, exactly?).
By your rigorous standards, all it takes to fulfill a "prophecy" is for someone familiar with it to use the words of the prophecy in connection with "a son."
The bar for deification has been set pathetically low.
Hi clamat
.... "The bar for deification has been set pathetically low."
You are absolutely right, if there ever was a bar to begin with. I suggest that bar was set lower than a snake's bum.
The truth of any claim to each of the christianities' prophesies has as much explanatory power as a kitchen colander.
To think the whole christian experience is set on a stack of 'prophesies' surely speaks volumes of its total baseless and speculative nature to the commonsense person. Unfortunately commonsense ain't all that common and theism has mastered the art of sucking in the unwary.
Cheers [but depressed]
Marcus said,
"..."There is no appearance of "almah" in the Old Testament where the meaning "virgin" cannot be used. Betuluh, on the other hand, often needs qualification to clarify whether or not "virgin" is intended." Genesis 24:16 and Joel 1:8 are examples where betuluh can mean young woman or married woman respectively. The kicker for me is that when those Jews translated the Hebrew texts to Greek (called the Septuagint...a couple of centuries before Jesus), they translated the "almah" in this context with the word "parthenos" - unambiguously "virgin". I think they knew Hebrew and Greek better than you do."
Apparently they understood it a bit better than YOU do, too:
"Hebrew has a specific word, betulah, for a virgin, and a more general word, `almah, for a young woman. Since `almah is the word used in the Hebrew text of Isaiah, some commentators have believed it at least possible that Isaiah had in mind only a normal conception by a young mother and that Matthew applied this text of Scripture to the birth of the one he believed to be Messiah, as John seems to have applied to his death another text of Scripture that in its original context referred to the Passover lamb. Others believe that Isaiah was directly prophesying the future virgin birth of the Messiah."
You've got them turned around to make your case look better.
This:
"...There is no appearance of "almah" in the Old Testament where the meaning "virgin" cannot be used."
is a bald-faced attempt to shoehorn the meaning "virgin" onto a word that doesn't mean "virgin", but "young woman" by saying that the authors of the Old Testament didn't specifically say that `almah DIDN'T mean virgin.
If they MEANT to say "virgin", they should have used the unambiguous "betulah".
@Papalinton
I can tell you read a lot of liberal scholarship...word for word what many folks from the "Jesus Seminar" would say. Can you prove that Jews in the first century did not view Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6 as messianic prophesies? Set aside for a moment if prophecy is possible or if there is a God and view it from the other end. In the context of Judeism prior to 70 AD was this considered a messianic prophecy?
IT was. To say otherwise is being silly. There was a reaction during the middle ages for Jews and Christians to distance each other - hence the heresy in the Talmad about Jesus' birth not being a virgin birth. If they didn't believe the messiah should be born of a virgin why did they fabricate the story of the Roman centurion impregnating Mary if not to invalidate the claim that Jesus was the messiah!?
Also your argument regarding almah vs bethulah would hold some weight if not the fact that bethulah was always used to mean vigin and Almah was never used to mean virgin. How ever you can't show that. Didn't you even read my comment. I think you didn't because you say nothing of how bethulah is used in Joel 1:8 to refer to a married woman. Married women are not virgins. Your argument regarding mistranslating Hebrew is silly. What about the fact that people who translated the Septuagint from Hebrew were not Christian and did their translation a couple of centuries before Christ was even born used the Greek word for VIRGIN! We know they knew Hebrew better than you do even if you want to argue that Matthew did not.
The only poo I see is your argument.
@Keith
None of the scholars you quoted say what you say. They don't agree that 2 Peter misapplies or mishandles Psalms 90:4. You are still wrong. They agree with me. I brought up the scripture to show that God is not on our time table for what "soon" means. You seemed to be saying that 2 Peter contradicts Psalms. Where is the contradiction? Where are the scholars raising the objection you raised?
@Gandalf
It's obviously easy to see why the Bible is so hard to understand. Your biases get in the way of understanding even what I write. You said
Had quantum mechanics , been another one of these "omnipotent supreme beings" with a "conscience" etc.. Then yes we then might have had some good honest reason to even compare the two.
But you know thats just not the case at all Marcus.
Yet you deceitfully try to keep on "bullshit" us with this crap apologetics, and compare two extremely different things Marcus .
What did I really write?
Let's see. So is understanding the Bible like say understanding....Quantum Mechanics? No? Why? I know what Gandalf would say. It's apples and oranges because Quantum Mechanics is true. Well Einstein would have disagreed. He didn't think it was true. And I would say that we don't really understand Quantum Mechanics. Not fully. Not completely. Therefore, just because you don't understand something does not mean that it's not true. That is why I end up quoting scripture so much. We have to deal with Gandalf's misunderstanding of scripture before we can even begin to discuss if its true or not. I think a great deal of the Bible is clear. To be fair I've been studying it for years. It was written in a language you do not speak in a cultural and temporal context you can't possibly think you can identify with without putting some time in studying it.
One paragraph. All I did was compare understanding quantum mechanics and understanding what the Bible says. You claim the Bible is not the Word of God. And I'm saying assuming that you ought to still be able to understand what it says without twisting it up the way you do. I wasn't comparing Quantum Mechanics to God at all. Further you put the context as that is all what I wrote about all the while bemoaning about how mean you are. What did you do? You never disappoint in confirming the things I have said about you. Thanks!
I like many theistic scientist look at science as another way to know God. In science we get "to think God's thoughts after Him." I know you don't look at it that way...hence your total misunderstanding and misplaced anger....again not surprising. God made us and He knows how to communicate with us. If you can't get the message and others are understanding it and agreeing, then what makes you so special to think that the problem is with us or God and not with you. I've seen many people on this blog bemoan and grumble and complain that Christians make them feel that the reason that they don't understand the Bible is because of their own fault. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that you are wholly incapable only that your own presuppositions are your stumbling block. I know you ain't the only one who doesn't like what I say. So? And I'm not getting all huffy, why are you? But I would like to know how often have I lost it and just ranted and raved? Most of the people here agree with you. This doesn't have to be nasty. How have I been nasty to anyone of you? Snide? Sarcastic? Sure, sometimes I've got to bust out laughing. Meanness and anger? No. I really want you all to come to know Jesus and know that He loves you.
You missed the entire point of the post. You say the Bible is confusing and hard to understand. You misrepresent what it says and twist it into a pretzel and get mad when I point out that it does not say what you say it says. Does that really make sense? Again that is different that evaluating if the Bible is true or not. We first have to make sure we agree on what it says and we don't.
@clamat
I notice that your son is not called "Mighty God". And by your logic, Jesus paying taxes also validates the government being on his shoulders. We are not agreed about Isaiah 7:14. In ancient times, Immanuel was not a proper name, but a title or description. Like "Son of Man". The original readers of this prophecy did not expect the Messiah's name to be "Immanuel". So your logic is still flawed. My definition of prophecy seems to have escaped you so I guess I'll state it. A Prophecy is a description of (usually future) event(s) that is described in detail and fulfilled in time. Name a single human being born of a virgin, who has had as big an impact on western civilization and the world, who is God made flesh, who gives the best counsel for any situation, who gives peace that surpasses all understanding? Setting aside whether or not the Bible is true and just by going on what it says....the only person who fits the Bill is Jesus Christ. If you can name someone else, and I will even let you use whatever source you want...go ahead. Let's kick the tires and see if your guy/girl fulfills the prophecy.
@GearHedED
I haven't turned around anything. You too haven't explained why in the Old Testament "betulah" has to have qualifications to mean "virgin". Again look at the references in Genesis 24:16 and Joel 1:8. The objection that Matthew got the translation wrong just doesn't hold up. And I would agree that John applies the Passover Lamb motif to Jesus. Throughout the New Testament Jesus is identified as the ultimate Passover Lamb and the Yom Kippur Sacrifice. IT is even understood that the sacrificial system as well as the "Ram in the bush" sacrificed instead of Isaac and Exodus and the Passover are all precursors - prototypes and models - of what Jesus would do for all of humanity. You didn't explain what you took issue with my explanation of translating "almah" instead you just restated the liberal position. I'm waiting.
@Marcus. Not sure why you want a list of scholars from me as we know you'll just dismiss them as LIBERALS not guided by the holy spirit.
Anyone who reads psalms 90:4 and 2nd Peter 3:8 can see that the writer of peter is using the 2 time metaphors in psalms dropping the 2nd metaphor and restating the 1st metaphor as fact.
My point has been proven. I led you to water and if you refuse to drink it aint my fault.
Anyway here's a short list before work begins...
Dr. George Lamsa, Dr. Rocco Errico, Dr. Gerald Larue, Dr. Stephan Hoeller, Dr. Robert Eisenman and Dr. Randel Helms.
Oh, did I not mention that we also call little Manny “Mighty God”? My bad. We do. That takes care of your quibble.
It’s not my logic, Marcus, it’s yours. The “logic” being that “government on his shoulders” provides enough “detail” to qualify as “prophecy,” per your own definition (which I’ll accept, even though a prophecy of past events doesn’t seem particularly impressive). The point is that “government on his shoulders” is so vague as to apply to any taxpayer, citizen, voter, or political aspirant, ever.
As to your other prophesied "details." Where in the verse does it say anything about having "a big impact on western civilization and the world" (as if “big impact” is a specific detail)? Where are the specifics of time and place? How about his parents names and their parents’ names? Ad nauseum: Where are the details in Isaiah 7:14 that prophecy Jesus of Nazareth, and only Jesus of Nazareth?
“Setting aside whether or not the Bible is true and just by going on what it says....the only person who fits the Bill is Jesus Christ." How do we know this, because Jesus "is God made flesh?!"
I couldn’t have asked for a better example of assuming the conclusion. How do we know Jesus of Nazarareth was God/divine/etc.? Because he was prophesied. How do we know he was prophesied? Because the prophecies speak of God made flesh. Jesus was God made flesh, ergo…prophecy fulfilled!
“Gives peace.” Hah. Because Christians are model pacifists. Or maybe you mean “inner peace”? Because no Christians get divorced, become alcoholics or commit suicide. “Surpasses all understanding.” Hah and triple hah. Then where the heck do you get off claiming to understand him? Such arrogance.
Manny was born of a virgin – I have as much evidence for this claim as you do for yours. We call him all the names the Bible says he’ll be called by. My wife and I, his grandparents and his friends and virtually everyone who knows him, say he gives the best advice ever. He gives peace and surpasses all understanding (he’s a teenager, who the heck understands them?!).
Manny fulfills the "prophecies" of Isaiah perfectly. Because we say he does. Just like with you and Jesus.
Impromptu Survey:
Which film reference suits theists of Marcus' ilk better? On one hand, they are the crowd in Life of Brian, hectoring the reluctant non-messiah:
Crowd: Tell us what to do, oh Messiah!
Brian: Look, I’m not the Messiah. Really.
Member of Crowd: Only the true Messiah denies his divinity!
Brian [exasperated]: What? What choice does that give me? All right, I am the Messiah.
Crowd [jubilant]: He is the Messiah!!!!!!
The point being, of course, it doesn’t matter what is said, they will interpret the words to support the conclusion they crave.
On the other hand, maybe the Cowardly Lion, with his eyes scrunched tight to prevent a glimpse of the real world from creeping in: “I do believe in [Jesus], I do believe in [Jesus], I do believe in [Jesus].”
Which film reference suits theists of Marcus' ilk better?
I think a better clip would be from 12 monkeys... where one of Jeffery Goines own father turns to him after he 'goes off' on one of his rants and says...
"My God, Jeffrey. You truly are insane." and Jeffrey replies calmly "No I'm not."
I've been on both sides of the fence (as a lot of us here have)... and I can tell you, It's an impossible task to convince someone their own ignorance.
Is it just me, or do Christians sometimes sound like old school Marxists? There's the same magical appeal to teleology, the same fevered barnacle-like grip on rhetorical stock phrases that mean nothing in the real world and the same breathless adoration for the past and future and utter disdain for the actual world where people live.
I realize I'm putting the cart before the horse here, but the two groups operate under the same obsessions and both willfully ignore the contingent facts on the ground.
Sadly, the theologically arrogant probably won't ever get the 1989 experience to put their claims to rest, because unlike the communists, they're careful to never have had to pretend that they have answers to practical concerns.
Marcus say.."It's obviously easy to see why the Bible is so hard to understand. Your biases get in the way of understanding even what I write. "
Because of Gandolfs biases.Thats why we have so very many splits and divides among Christianity today over differences of their opinion of translation of the Christian doctrine.One book the holy bible,thousands of splits and divides.
All because Gandolf has bias.
Its easy to wrongfully misjudge somebody, when you are devoted and deluded by charisma.Christians like Marcus "think" they live by righteousness ,and to them that includes misjudging people and wrongfully accusing them.
Marcus says.."All I did was compare understanding quantum mechanics and understanding what the Bible says. You claim the Bible is not the Word of God. And I'm saying assuming that you ought to still be able to understand what it says without twisting it up the way you do. I wasn't comparing Quantum Mechanics to God at all."
"All I did was compare understanding quantum mechanics and understanding what the Bible says"
Exactly.And thats whats so stupid.One moment you try arguing the bible is easy to understand (as it should be) ,next you try aruging its like understanding quantum mechanics.
We human dont need to understand quantum mechanics ,to receive eternal salvation Marcus .It dont matter to our hope of "eternal salvation" if priests and popes and familys split apart and divide, and some folks turn atheist out of total disgust and disrespect of the carry on with devision over quantum mechanics.
But it does matter with the holy bible Marcus.
You cannot compare the two.And you are a devoted deluded charisma ridden idiot! to not see there really is such a very big difference between the need of humans to be able to easily understand the holy bible compared to the need for them to easily understand quantum mechanics.
1.If humans dont understand and disagree over quantum mechanics , so what?
2,If humans disagree and split and divide over the bible ,which in turn causes hurt pain and even suicide ,which leads to disgust and hatered and in turn turns many toward atheism ..So what ? ..Many of humans are supposed on the road to hell ..thats whats what Marcus.
Like i said Marcus, you cant! even start to compare us needing to understand the bible with ease , with humans need for understanding quantum mechanics.
Marcus say..."You claim the Bible is not the Word of God."
If it is.He is a asshole.A prick that caused devision.A dick head that obviously couldnt even be trusted to help write a decent enough book that could actually honestly be properly used to try and help guide the fraaking girl guide movement ! without likely causing them to create a total devided fuck-up and a mess.And send many to heartbreak and even death and suicide.
Marcus you fool.I say this book isnt word of God ,precisely because you would really need to be a devoted deluded drip! to even dare think so.
Its obviously a utter mess Marcus.We cant have a book thats obviously caused the mess that it has,and then try ignorantly suggesting its a freaking masterpiece of God.Which is what you blindly try argue.
Its easy to see its humans words.
Marcus say.."And I'm saying assuming that you ought to still be able to understand what it says without twisting it up the way you do."
You arrogant ignorant thoughtless prick.Im far from being the only one who had trouble with this worthless confusing book.Open your deluded devoted eyes for once womble.You cant suggest everybody is so evil and bad that they purposely twist it up.
Do you realize, by your words, you try suggesting all Jim Jones followers were simply nasty evil people! who simply liked to twist Gods word.
Marcus say.."I wasn't comparing Quantum Mechanics to God at all"
Yes you did.You suggest ability of understanding God is like understand quantum mechanics.
1, God is a supreme being with a conscience and a will ,who suuposedly even wishes us to love and understand him.Being omnipotent God could do anything he chooses to, to make sure this happened properly without causing any pain heartbreak or splits and suicides.If he honestly wishes us to love him and end up in heaven,its more likely he would then also care enough to be sure to make his will easier for ALL humans to easily understand.That way less harm would have been caused.
2, quantum mechanics is only a scientific idea.It isnt a supreme being with a conscience and a will.So not even being a "being", it dont even get to care if humans understand it or not.Its not omnipotent and cannot choose to do anything at all to make sure this learning about quantum mechanics happened properly without causing any pain heartbreak or splits and suicides.
You idiot Marcus .It would be so blatantly obvious id say even to most kindergarten children! that are not "deluded devoted church charisma addicts" .That the two things are just so very very different ,only a complete idiot! would even try comparing them as being anywhere near the same.
Its a bit like saying ...ohhh a lolly pop! has about as much chance of making sure us humans understand matters properly without making mistakes , as does a omniscient omnipresent supreme being known as the almighty God.
Now im angry because you take your blind ignorance out on me here Marcus,when i need to continually listen to you by reading the rubbish you write and promote.When i need to remember its ignorant faithful folks like you, that also helped promote and cause all what happened within my own family by suggesting this book is word of God.
Im much more forgiving towards faithful folks, who atleast show they are decent enough to care to be willing to think in some real depth! and dont come up with crap suggesting understanding God could never be made any easier by God, than us understanding quantum mechanics.Im a little forgiving of those who atleast admit, much within the bible is not infallible and not word of God.
But you Marcus.You are a thoughtless prick.You dont really care a damn if your type ignorance has even caused death and suicide.
Your suggestion of caring is dishonest and hollow.
When dealing with people like you Marcus.I get to come to better understanding of the action of people like Stalin.
You lot never ever think to admit you could ever be wrong.You dont even mind how many paid for such arrogant ignorance.
You cant compare quantum mechanics to a supreme being ,and yet you do so, plus you write a blog bleating and wrongfully acusing me of simply just being a meany who likes to twist things.
My family paid for your type of arrogant churchy ignorance Marcus.I have a right to be a little angry about it
@Marcus. In another thread you said that a day to God is like 1000 years.
Isn't it true that God says no such thing anywhere in the bible?
Isn't it true that the quote from peter comes from a mis-interpretation of Psalms 90:4?
That verse reads...
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.
This in no way means that a day to God is 1000 years.
A watch in the night is a 3 hour period so why don't christians say that a day to God is 3 hrs?
I have to call bullshit on ya my dude...@
@clamat
You don't understand the Bible if you think your analogy is anywhere like how Christians have understood Jesus' place in the Context of Isaiah 7:14
If you understand the moral argument for the existence of God (which you deny - explaining your blindness to it) you would know that "government on his shoulders" does not apply to being taxpayer, citizen, voter, or political aspirant. It means that governments would claim to be based on his teaching. Think western civilization for the past 1500 years. Yes...separation of church and state, but quite literally for centuries folks have ruled claiming to base their authority of Christ's authority.
Another point...thank you for granting my definition for Biblical prophecy and I agree with the fact that making future predictions is unimpressive...unless those predictions are fulfulled in time. You seemed to have miss that part of the definition I gave.
My point is that the Bible says Jesus was God. I haven't treid to prove the Bible is correct. My conclusion is that the Bible claims that Jesus is God. We can talk about if its true once we agree on what What the Bible is saying. You missed the phrase "Setting aside whether or not the Bible is true and just by going on what it says..."
If your point is that anyone can fulfill the Prophecy then my point of contention is that the Bible shows that only Jesus fulfills all of it....in the context of the Prophecy itself. "Manny" fulfills your interpretation of it which I just explained you have wrong. We can go on further if you give up your biased and wrong assumption that anyone could have fulfilled the Messianic Prophecies.
It would be far more profitable if you can show how Jesus failed to prove this prophecy, given what the Bible says...and then once you fail, and you will fail, we can look and see if there is any reason to believe what the Bible says about this.
Keep in mind it's not about Jesus fulfilling a single verse written 700 years before his birth, it's about fulfilling over a hundred all written as recent as 400 years before his birth.
oooo! ooo! Can I play too? What movie character does clamat and Dan remind me of? hmmmm....Clamat reminds me of those poor people who were trapped in the Matrix living in a dream reality with no idea what the outside world really looks like. Or maybe the Gary Oldman character from the "Book of Eli" who had read the Bible but had no idea what it said. Actually two scriptures come to mind that are even better
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. - 2 Timothy 3:1-5
@Greg
You remember that old school Marxist and communism are by definition atheistic, right? Therefore if you are an atheist...you have something in common with Stalin and Mao that I do not.
@Gandalf
You said
No not your biases. You are bringing up the biases of other people.
Marcus says.."All I did was compare understanding quantum mechanics and understanding what the Bible says. You claim the Bible is not the Word of God. And I'm saying assuming that you ought to still be able to understand what it says without twisting it up the way you do. I wasn't comparing Quantum Mechanics to God at all."
"All I did was compare understanding quantum mechanics and understanding what the Bible says"
Exactly.And that's whats so stupid.One moment you try arguing the bible is easy to understand (as it should be) ,next you try arguing its like understanding quantum mechanics.
I was arguing about why you and some people here don't understand the Bible. MY point was that just because you don't understand something does not mean that it's wrong. See what I mean about your ability to be objective and not reading in offense when none is being offered?
We human dont need to understand quantum mechanics ,to receive eternal salvation Marcus .It dont matter to our hope of "eternal salvation" if priests and popes and familys split apart and divide, and some folks turn atheist out of total disgust and disrespect of the carry on with devision over quantum mechanics.
But it does matter with the holy bible Marcus.
You cannot compare the two.And you are a devoted deluded charisma ridden idiot! to not see there really is such a very big difference between the need of humans to be able to easily understand the holy bible compared to the need for them to easily understand quantum mechanics.
I in no way said that the two were equivalently important. You are saying I did but I didn't. I never once said that understanding quantum mechanics is as important as understanding the Bible. I'm glad you agree that people need to understand the Bible. But if you read it as badly as you read my comments it's no wonder you don't understand. I get it. You have been hurt. You have been disappointed. You are angry. Turning your back on God is not the solution. IT's just made things worse, hasn't it. Your wounds are not healing but festering and I'd like to know how atheism has helped you with it. I know what you need. You need to turn it over to JEsus. I say that not because I smarter or better than you but because Jesus has been all He has promised to be and I know he can heal you. You get more mean and argumentative with every post. Don't you wanna know why I don't react the same way you do? Jesus loves you and does not want you to be living wounded anymore. Let Him help you. You have been running away from God, now go back. This doesn't mean going back to the church you grew up in. IT's about embracing what God has for you. He'll show you more peace and love then you know is possible and even the church he wants you to be in. Set aside heaven for a moment, you need help now and Jesus can give that to you.
Like i said Marcus, you cant! even start to compare us needing to understand the bible with ease , with humans need for understanding quantum mechanics. I wanna know who said it should be easy? It's been my experience that nothing worthwhile is easy. When I say the Bible is easy to understand, I mean you can sit down and read it and get an understanding of what it says but it can take consulting commentaries, history, culture, lexicons, and concordances. No one person carries within himself or herself the sum total of knowledge to understand what the Bible is saying. I apologize to anyone who thought that I meant that I just pick up the Bible, reading an English translation, and the mysteries of the universe are suddenly open to me (choir music in the background). That's not what I'm saying at all. It can take a lot of work to understand a single verse. It's easy to me because I happen to have a personality that enjoys research and study. Not everyone is like that. For some people I know very well, it's a job for them to put in that kind of work but they do it because they look at scripture as worth it.
Marcus say..."You claim the Bible is not the Word of God."
If it is.He is a asshole.A prick that caused devision.A dick head that obviously couldnt even be trusted to help write a decent enough book that could actually honestly be properly used to try and help guide the fraaking girl guide movement ! without likely causing them to create a total devided fuck-up and a mess.And send many to heartbreak and even death and suicide.
Marcus you fool.I say this book isnt word of God ,precisely because you would really need to be a devoted deluded drip! to even dare think so.
Its obviously a utter mess Marcus.We cant have a book thats obviously caused the mess that it has,and then try ignorantly suggesting its a freaking masterpiece of God.Which is what you blindly try to argue
Gandalf...read what you have written about God. That is a lot of anger directed to someone who you say does not exist.
Marcus say.."And I'm saying assuming that you ought to still be able to understand what it says without twisting it up the way you do."
You arrogant ignorant thoughtless prick.Im far from being the only one who had trouble with this worthless confusing book.Open your deluded devoted eyes for once womble.You cant suggest everybody is so evil and bad that they purposely twist it up.
Do you realize, by your words, you try suggesting all Jim Jones followers were simply nasty evil people! who simply liked to twist Gods word.
Gandalf I said nothing of the kind. I was referring to how people twist things in the Bible to say things it does not say. I don't know if Jim Jones knew what he was doing or not...but he taught things the scriptures clearly do not say and he was able to trick people who thought they were doing the right thing. I'm not pronouncing any judgment of any kind. It could have been me just as easily as it was them. Jones could have been just as deceived as the people who followed him. You seem to think I'm suggesting that I'm not as nasty or evil as they were. I'm not. I follow Christ because of the recognition of my own depravity and issues, not because you have them and I don't. After all this time you don't understand me.
@Gandalf
You then gave 2 presuppositions...let me ask you to think about what you are assuming
1. Given that the Bible says God put us in the best possible place and best possible circumstances for us to find Him (See Acts 17), I'd have to say the Bible disagrees with you. Given that you don't know what the best possible circumstances are or the best time for you to be born to best and most easiest ways for you to find God, I find it ironic that you think you can think God failed to do that. I've looked at the lives of a few people who come to Christ and most of them are very different from mine in many details.
2. Are you saying that Quantum Mechanics is or is not a good scientific understanding about how our universe works? What about evolution? Was I even talking about what you are talking about? Many people, some on this blog regularly assert that evolution and the sciences are superior knowledge to understanding anything about God? Are you disagreeing?
You are pressing the analogy way farther than I did. Why? I never claimed the things you are saying. Again the only point was that just because you don't understand something doesn't make it false.
@Gandalf said
Now im angry because you take your blind ignorance out on me here Marcus,when i need to continually listen to you by reading the rubbish you write and promote.When i need to remember its ignorant faithful folks like you, that also helped promote and cause all what happened within my own family by suggesting this book is word of God.
Im much more forgiving towards faithful folks, who atleast show they are decent enough to care to be willing to think in some real depth! and dont come up with crap suggesting understanding God could never be made any easier by God, than us understanding quantum mechanics.Im a little forgiving of those who atleast admit, much within the bible is not infallible and not word of God.
But you Marcus.You are a thoughtless prick.You dont really care a damn if your type ignorance has even caused death and suicide.
Your suggestion of caring is dishonest and hollow.
When dealing with people like you Marcus.I get to come to better understanding of the action of people like Stalin.
You lot never ever think to admit you could ever be wrong.You dont even mind how many paid for such arrogant ignorance.
You cant compare quantum mechanics to a supreme being ,and yet you do so, plus you write a blog bleating and wrongfully acusing me of simply just being a meany who likes to twist things.
My family paid for your type of arrogant churchy ignorance Marcus.I have a right to be a little angry about it
So you are angry with me because I believe the Bible is true and it's your contention that believing the Bible is what has caused all the pain and heartache in your life and countless others. Right? It's my fault because I wrote the Bible and gave those peopel the interpretation that they acted upon causing all the problems in the world? Nope. And was it the Bible or what people said that the Bible says. People used to say that the Bible says that black people were supposed to be enslaved to white people. Does it? Nope. People say the Bible says "God helps those who help themselves." Does it? Nope. People say the Bible says "The race is not given to the swift but to him that endures to the end." Does it? Nope. I hope you get my point. People say the Bible says all kinds of things. The abuses your family has suffered at the hands of church people, have you ever really looked at what the Bible actually says juxtaposed with what they say the Bible says? If you did, I'm certain you would see you don't really know the God of the Bible. No one is saying such evil is not taking place in God's name, however you don't have to suffer. Do you think those people you are angry with are loosing any sleep over what they've done to you? They ain't. If you wanna be healed you need to go to the source of all healing.
I agree the problem is ignorance. Ignorace of not knowing what the Bible really says. I know you disagree...so how about taking a real example. the worse, damning passage you know of and explaining what it means and how it's caused "death and suicide".
As for the blog post. You said you and others on the blog get angry when I post scripture so I explained why. People do. And I gave examples. I did not say you, Gandalf, does it because I only see you make generalizations with no example from the Bible to back up your claims, so I wasn't talking about you. As for you being mean...That last quote from you proves the point. Count the number of insults and personal attacks that you can't even substantiate. That was the reason for the blog post. If quoting what the Bible says is offensive, then you need to know that misquoting and misrepresenting it offend me even more than the profanity and personal attacks in your writing.
Marcus quotes:
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. - 2 Timothy 3:1-5
Let me ask you a few questions Marcus. Can you say that none of those things (signs) in 2 Timothy 3:1-5 was not going on in the "first days". (Here, first days can mean the period of time that the "last days" infers.) If so, doesn't this prove that the "last days" had actually started from the "first days"? How can you then use these verses to prove that the bible was correct in prophesying, inspired divinely, and true after all?
Andre
Andre, the fact is that most of these have been true of humanity ever since the fall. I think that there is a difference today. I mean look at current events. There are things people do today that 50 years ago people would never do let alone be proud of. Like fathering children and not taking care of them. But today people glory in that and think it's right. People are also more selfish today than they used to be, and have no shame about it. So, no, I would not say that these last days are exactly like the things that have gone on in the past. I'm not quoting the Bible to prove it was correct. I believe it's telling the truth. We can debate that and discuss that. But the scripture was there to put out there what it says. You don't have to believe it's true to recognize and understand what it is saying. Is it true that you want to discuss further if this passage is true or not?
Marcus, I responded to your bible quoting because you are using it to describe people of today (like Dan and Clamat). Do you really believe that the bible can make such clear and specific judgments, that you feel you have the right to use it against someone like me? This would be absurd given the results of biblical studies and criticism, and as I've hinted at in my previous comment, it would be a difficult task for you to make it seem so simple.
Think about it Marcus, do you not see the type of person the bible has turned you into? You have become a lover of yourself, boastful, proud, a slanderer, and conceited. (All from the bible verses you quoted.) When applied to you (and the author of 2 Timothy) do you see how easily it loses its authoritative pretence? When is it really the last days since people in every culture have had these traits from the time of "the fall" as you believe?
What makes you any different from a Muslim who quotes the Koran they believe describes you? How you'd feel would probably be similar to how I'd feel if you were addressing me the same way. (And keep in mind I'm talking about dogmatic beliefs.)
You've said on a few occasions that you're trying to help us, to save us from hell, and that God is giving us time. Listen to yourself. Stop looking down on us as if you’re in "heaven" with some sort of heavenly knowledge that non-believers aren't aware of. You are a human being on the same planet like the rest of us. No god has ever spoken to us so you don't know jack anymore than the next person. You may believe you have good reason for your beliefs, but everyone else will not share your beliefs that you believe. Telling or thinking that people will be going to hell is like telling a child "the boogieman is gonna get you!” it's both childish and baseless.
Marcus, you have a mind of your own, stop letting writings of ignorant and superstitious beliefs dictate who you are in how you view and treat people. We are far removed from that time where we have a better understanding of human behaviour and beliefs. And if we know better, we should do better.
Andre
@Marcusoooo! ooo! Can I play too? What movie character does clamat and Dan remind me of? hmmmm....Clamat reminds me of those poor people who were trapped in the Matrix living in a dream reality with no idea what the outside world really looks like. Or maybe the Gary Oldman character from the "Book of Eli" who had read the Bible but had no idea what it said. Actually two scriptures come to mind that are even better
Rather interesting that you've drawn from the Matrix as an illustration... kind of silly of you really but you know sometimes Marcus I DO ask myself... "Why or why couldn't I have taken the Blue Pill"
And the Book of Eli reference... man you're just on a role... What does this character represent in the Movie? His character specifically and clearly says his goal in obtaining that 'book' is in order to control people. Why? On what does Hollywood base this... reality (sorry that comes with the red pill so you might not get it)... but reality says Religion and the Bible Gives men the power to control other men, that's what he wanted... that's what you want.
As a Pentecostal Christian... could you honestly say you share fellowship with Mormons? JW's? Catholics? Anglicans? Episcopal? Presbyterians?... or if these denominational divisions are too modern for you, lets go back to the early days... how about the Ebionites, Gnostics or Marcion do you share fellowship with them?
No? Probably because you feel that your "interpretation" and "understanding" of the SAME FREAKING BOOK (the Bible) is superior to theirs... thus giving you the illusion of more power... so sure, thanks for chiming in the movie analogy game here too Marcus... you do fit the Matrix and the Gary Oldman character as well.
Oh.. in case you feel the exchange you receive here is a bit harsh...(well first off you came here obviously looking for a fight which is probably not very smart) but in case you do feel persecuted for your "faith" here's a bible verse for you that you SHOULD probably heed in your conversation with Gandolf too...
Romans 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
Or how about Luke 6:28, 1 Cor 4:12, and since you're supposedly Charismatic and Spirit filled... The fruit of Love mentioned in Gal 5:22
The only Fruit I see from you Marcus comes out of your ass... Your response to Gandolf's sharing about the abuse his family has experienced at the hands of the faithful was without Grace and class and pretty much shows you ARE the Carnegie character in the Book of Eli...Congratulations.
That is the point, Andre. I'm not better than you. I'm just as much a sinner. It describes every single one of us without Christ. I'm not looking down on you or anyone else. Imean come'on/ It's one thing to label me s condescending or arrogant, but can't you see the other comments. I'm just stating what the book says. It's supposed to prick your heart. It should cut right thought your self-deception. It does for me. I didn't use it to offend Dan or clamat, just to show the fact that the Bible really is saying something relevant about the here and now. I mean it;s not like they weren't intending to disparage or insult me, right?
Dan, you did take the blue pill.
You said:
As a Pentecostal Christian... could you honestly say you share fellowship with Mormons? JW's? Catholics? Anglicans? Episcopal? Presbyterians?... or if these denominational divisions are too modern for you, lets go back to the early days... how about the Ebionites, Gnostics or Marcion do you share fellowship with them?
As regards to the Anglicans,Presbetyrians, and episcopalians - yup (with those who have not compromised scripture). As for the bionites, Gnostics or Marcion - nope.
Oh.. in case you feel the exchange you receive here is a bit harsh...(well first off you came here obviously looking for a fight which is probably not very smart) but in case you do feel persecuted for your "faith" here's a bible verse for you that you SHOULD probably heed in your conversation with Gandolf too...
Romans 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
Or how about Luke 6:28, 1 Cor 4:12, and since you're supposedly Charismatic and Spirit filled... The fruit of Love mentioned in Gal 5:22
The only Fruit I see from you Marcus comes out of your ass... Your response to Gandolf's sharing about the abuse his family has experienced at the hands of the faithful was without Grace and class and pretty much shows you ARE the Carnegie character in the Book of Eli...Congratulations.
ooo...anger. No surprise. I haven;t cursed anyone. Sure a lot of cursing at me, however. This isn't a fight. You have nothing to fight with. I haven't broken any of those scriptures and I totally agree with them. All I've done is told the truth. Agree or disagree...fine. But you can't say that I've mistreated anyone. If anyone think they have been mistreated then I apologize. If anyone knows they has mistreated me and lied on me...I'm waiting on apology. I'm not even complaining about the treatment. I expect it. I just point it out so you can look at yourselves versus how I talk to you. Maybe that's a mistake.
Okay on the cahnce you are right about how I've been treating people on here why don't you tell me the threads and the timestamp of any time I have disrepected, mistreated, or cursed anyone.
Dan, you did take the blue pill.
You are so laughable... the blue pill keeps you connected to the matrix there Marcus...I don't care if it's Pentecostal, Catholic, Mormonism etc it's the system of Religion..."FAITH"... and you're still in it... you're absolutely hilarious to try and switch that cultural analogy around in "favor of" Religion... LMAO.
Cypher: "I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss."
Marcus : "I know the stories in the Bible are fanciful and sound a lot like other stories you can find in other cultures and religions and yeah I know those are all myth. But I believe GOD is telling my brain that he loves me and has a plan for my life if I just believe he sent himself to kill himself to pay a debt that he created himself in order to appease himself, which proves that he loves me... sigh,ignorance is bliss."
A better lesson for you Marcus...
Neo (the first time he returned to the Matrix): "I used to eat there. Really good noodles. I have these memories from my life. None of them happened. What does that mean?"
Trinity: "That the Matrix cannot tell you who you are."
You are your own person Marcus... you belong to no one, and GOD cannot tell you who you are... your life is yours to live...the version of 'God' (even if I granted you the deistic argument) is all in your head, and if you choose to devote your life to your version of "GOD" that's your choice, but when you try to force your "faith" down other peoples throats... you are simply being an "AGENT" do you see the Analogy now Mr.Smith?
"Dan you did take the blue pill"... LMAO.
Exactly my point, Dan, You are still in the Matrix, If you want to extend the analogy. You are not Neo. Neo is like Christ - the one. Look at the messianic terms and characteristics of who New is. I think you are the one who flipped the metaphor. Not I. Even the name of the human city "Zion". Do you know what Zion" is in the Bible? And funny you would quote Cypher who represents an apostate as best and Judas the traitor at worse.
Dan, further the Matrix is not religion. It is sin. And yes Sin cannot tell you who you are.
Okay on the cahnce you are right about how I've been treating people on here why don't you tell me the threads and the timestamp of any time I have disrepected, mistreated, or cursed anyone.
Not a Jab at you Marcus... but if this is a sincere request... let me share with you for a minute.
I know you don't know me, but I was an Ordained Minister... I was a Christian for over twenty years (actually became a Christian in the AoG so I even understand where you're coming from with the Charismatic angle) I served in church leadership for over ten years including as a lead teaching pastor for three and half years... so I'm not just an A-hole trying to tear you down... think about this.
How do you think you (and your message) is really being perceived? Do you really think you're reputation here is any better than say the guys at Westboro Baptist Church who hold up signs saying "God Hates Fags" (which you may agree with) but is that how you want to be perceived?
Gandolf gave you an opportunity to show the Grace of God that you so adamantly proclaim you believe in... he shared with you a personal side of his life in saying that his family was hurt by an abusive faith system... and you're answer was what? Was there any compassion? Do you really think you were "Christ Like" in your response to him? Would Jesus have quoted back to the crowds something along the lines that it's not HIS fault that they were ignorant and believed in the interpretations of the Torah as given to them by the Pharisees and Sadducees? And then go on and justify why he posted equally offensive remarks on his personal blog? Your arrogance is clear...
I don't really care to argue you you're really not here for a conversation, you're here because you feel "you're on a mission from God"... but if you respond like an asshole, don't be surprised that people think of you as just that... but of course you do it all in Jesus name so that makes it okay.
@Dan
How do you think you (and your message) is really being perceived? Do you really think you're reputation here is any better than say the guys at Westboro Baptist Church who hold up signs saying "God Hates Fags" (which you may agree with) but is that how you want to be perceived?
Gandolf gave you an opportunity to show the Grace of God that you so adamantly proclaim you believe in... he shared with you a personal side of his life in saying that his family was hurt by an abusive faith system... and you're answer was what? Was there any compassion? Do you really think you were "Christ Like" in your response to him? Would Jesus have quoted back to the crowds something along the lines that it's not HIS fault that they were ignorant and believed in the interpretations of the Torah as given to them by the Pharisees and Sadducees? And then go on and justify why he posted equally offensive remarks on his personal blog? Your arrogance is clear...
Um...equally offensive remarks? Wow...that's amazing. You certainly haven't looked at things like I do. Yes, I do think Jesus would have responded the same way. Because it's not Jesus' fault. Jesus encountered violent opposition much worse than anything dissed out here. That blog post was about why I use scripture in my posts and how you can't discuss if the Bible is true if you can't agree on what the Bible says. I find that there is much attempt to discredit what Christianity is based on a understanding of scripture that I don't think can be supported.
Jesus asked the lame man "Do you want to be whole?". This is the tactic I took. The pointing to the answer to the problem. Do you really think that was unloving? How? And no I disagree with Fred, God does not hate homosexuals! If he did he'd hate all of us because we are all sinners trapped in sins we can't escape alone.
Can you honestly say that I've been arrogant because I'm saying that the Bible is understandable? Think about what you are saying.
@Marcus... not to keep beating on this issue (because it's starting to lose it's humor )
But you're stretching out on a limb to paint the Matrix movie as Christian... I'll give you spiritual maybe even gnostic but at the same time I'd be willing to bet that some of your Pentecostal friends would say you're in danger of Hell Fire for even having watched the damn movie (there was sex in there ya know)...
Do you know Carman? (I'm dating myself) He's pentecostal out of Tulsa OK... that's where I grew up... he has a song in which he condemns things like drinking smoking and guess what MOVIES... it was believed as part of the church I attended that Movies were sinful, my youth pastor could not give me the "okay" to go to the Prom... So I don't know how old you are, but your Pentecostal brothers before you I'm sure would NOT have approved of the Matrix... let alone your connections of Neo to Christ.
Wake Up Marcus... any connections in the movie is simply because Christianity IS part of the culture in America so just because there are words in there like "trinity" and "Zion" doesn't make the theology / philosophy of the film Christian... the matrix is not a Christian movie, get over it.
@Dan
@Marcus... not to keep beating on this issue (because it's starting to lose it's humor )
Actually I thought that his wasa pleasent conversation.
But you're stretching out on a limb to paint the Matrix movie as Christian... I'll give you spiritual maybe even gnostic but at the same time I'd be willing to bet that some of your Pentecostal friends would say you're in danger of Hell Fire for even having watched the damn movie (there was sex in there ya know)...
There is sex in the "Song of Solomon" and throught out the Bible. so? I read a paper at about the time that the Matrix came out that pointed out how gnostic the Matrix Movie really is. I agree.You can't poress the analogy all that farther than i took it but it os a viable interpretation. No where in the Bible does it say it is wrong to watch movies...play sports...or a myriad of other things. Again people, who thoioguht that they were helpoing drove people out.
Do you know Carman? (I'm dating myself) He's pentecostal out of Tulsa OK... that's where I grew up... he has a song in which he condemns things like drinking smoking and guess what MOVIES... it was believed as part of the church I attended that Movies were sinful, my youth pastor could not give me the "okay" to go to the Prom... So I don't know how old you are, but your Pentecostal brothers before you I'm sure would NOT have approved of the Matrix... let alone your connections of Neo to Christ.
Yeah,m i thought that you were my parents' age range. When they were children a lof people looked at movies and television the way you did. there is no scripture for it., but they they were trying to lay aside anything that could become a stumbling block for them. I agree if movies keep you from Jesus, then just stop watching them. But it's not going to send you to hell. all technology is tool not an evil to be combatted. When my dad was a child in th 30's some of the adults were saying the car and electic light were a fad. Things change. the Bioble doesn't.
Wake Up Marcus... any connections in the movie is simply because Christianity IS part of the culture in America so just because there are words in there like "trinity" and "Zion" doesn't make the theology / philosophy of the film Christian... the matrix is not a Christian movie, get over it.
When did I say that the connection the Matrix has to Christianity is any more than that? Some people today try to say that the way Jesus is depicted in Mark was influenced by Odysseus (Ulysses) in the Odyssey. I disagree, but why is it okay to say that Jesus is like Ulysses but not see any connection between Jesus and Neo. The Matrix is not a Christian movie but it was influenced by Christianity.
Marcus (part 1 of 2),
Have you noticed that, unlike many non-believers who engage you, I do not quarrel over certain aspects of Biblical interpretation? Specifically, I have not promoted a particular edition or version of the Bible, or a “proper” translation of ancient Hebrew or Greek. When you have proffered a specific definition (e.g., “prophecy”) or claimed I misquoted I have responded “fine,” and proceeded to argue from the “correct” language you provided.
You know why? Because if I simply stick with whatever text you offer, even text that doesn't actually appear in the Bible, it emphasizes your need to invent language, sputter on about semantic arguments and abstract philosophies, and promote interpretations of ancient languages and cultural contexts, to try to explain away the inconsistencies and absurdities that appear on the face of the Bible.
So it is with your new reference to the “moral argument for the existence of God.” This is the first time you’ve hinted at this premise, so how facile of you just to assume my ignorance so you don’t actually have to articulate an argument. (That’s not an invitation. Please, for Zeus’ sake don’t bother.)
To the extent it is articulated, it’s ridiculous: If Isaiah is intended to mean “governments will claim to be based on his teaching” why doesn’t it just say that, for cripes sake?
You can flail about all you want, but it would be much easier and more honest to admit, as most reasonable people can, that a phrase in your favorite book is a little vague. But no, you are straight out of Yeats, full of passionate intensity, completely unflappable in your convictions, impervious to doubt. In some measure, I respect that. But I can think of no other word than “delusional” for your defense of the “prophecy” of Isaiah 7:14.
This will be my last post on this subject (though not for the reasons I suspect you’d like to believe, read on!) so addressing a few last specific points:
-- How exactly did I miss the phrase “setting aside whether the Bible is true…”? I quoted it back to you directly! Do you even bother to read posts before you type “wrong!”? And you “haven’t tried to prove the Bible is correct”? Excuse me, but that’s the only thing you’ve been doing.
-- I didn’t say “making future predictions is unimpressive.” This is another example of careless reading on your part. You said “prophecy” is a “description of (usually future) events.” This implies that prophecy can sometimes be a description of past events. Describing past events is unimpressive.
-- Manny. Existing figure. Born of a virgin. We and his other followers live on a compound that harbors a functioning society with a government based on his teachings. What a prophecy-fulfilling guy!
-- Even accepting arguendo that Jesus is the only one who fulfills the prophecy of the Bible. Wow, the Bible, written and collected and collated and revised and refined for centuries after the fact, is internally consistent. Big whoop. So is Moby Dick.
O.K. If you’re now saying “well, there’s a lot of other stuff, too!,” I think we’ve shown that Jesus fulfilling Isaiah 7:14 doesn’t mean a whole heck of a lot.
Marcus.
Any reason why you re-posted my original remarks?
Since you refuse to address them in all I thought I'd ask.
Dan said.."Do you really think you're reputation here is any better than say the guys at Westboro Baptist Church who hold up signs saying "God Hates Fags" (which you may agree with) but is that how you want to be perceived? "
Dan obviously its a waste of time even talking to the twit.
If Marcus discussed matters with family of somebody killed as a witch.Marcus excuse would simply be,look somebody should have just studied the bible better and not taken it out of context.
Marcus is so charasmatically deluded and ignorant.He cant even start to imagine ,"true word" of God would very likely be made so simple and easy to understand by anyone,it would not ever be able to be so easily used to lead anyone astray.Specially would not leave so many cult followers also blindly wallowing and fumbling around in the dark ,like so often it has done!.
Word of God would far more likely be simple,meaning these cult followers wouldnt exist ,because their followers would see what wrong! and know the truth easier,and so snap out of it.Meaning all these abusive cults would have had far less chance of even forming in the first place.
Marcus thoughtlessness and uncaring atitude is a good reminder of just why Stalin might have got to start feeling the way he did towards Christians.
Today i came to fully realize, im actually very glad for all the new atheists evolving around us.And instead of less ,i now suggest there is actually a great need for many many more of these types.
People like Marcus are here to inspire us.
Its really no use discussing these matters with people like Marcus.They dont "honestly" even care about others.Hollow words is all they have to offer.
New atheists have the best idea how to best deal with them.
Im fast leaning more and more towards becoming more of a new atheist myself.
Im inspired by the devoted thoughtlessness and uncaring nature, of the many ignorant theist people like Marcus.
Marcus le ignorant say .." I find that there is much attempt to discredit what Christianity is based on a understanding of scripture that I don't think can be supported."
If the holy bible was honestly any true word of God.Why then would God even allow it to be written in such a way, so it was made so very easy for so very very many to even start trying to discredit it.
Its supposedly word of almighty God , a God who could supposedly even "create a whole universe".
Why then would this almighty God likely even allow this type of thing to even happen with such ease.Like it has.
It dont make any good sense.
Marcus would like to have us all here believe , this "almighty God" would even allow his holy word to be connected to a book that could obviously be so very easily used by so very many! to try to discreit him ?.
In effect he is saying, his almighty God is also as utterly thick and ignorant as Marcus is.
What you think can or cant be supported in this holy book ...Is totally beside the point here Marcus !.
We dont really give a danm whether Marcus le ignorant thinks "he`s" the worlds most amazing guru bible translator, that got it all down-pat and totally correct.
We just dont give a damn about that "small matter".
We got far "bigger matters" to considder.Far more important matters to worry about.
Cause having one magical Marcus wonderful guru bible translator, wont do much at all! to help any of the "very many folks" born into all these very many abusive cults !around the world.It wont change the plight of those killed as witches etc.
I know Marcus a ignorant theist, who`s caring is obviously nothing more than surface offerings of hollow words.
But why dont your devoted deluded brain understand that simple fact Marcus, that you being a bible translating guru.Changes sweet bugger all! of the far bigger picture.
We couldnt care less how you reckon you "personally" do manage to make this abortion of a book seem to all fit together right.
Because,the fact you "personally" manage to make it all seem to work out great.Do absolutely nothing! at ALL to help change the plight of all the other pain and suffering it caused over time, and still causes to so very many others around this world! even to this very day.
The only thing that would have ever honestly helped those bigger matters...Would have been that God (if he existed) made damn sure a bullshite abortion of a holy book guide like the confusing bible obviously is ,didnt even get to press.
Why?
Because being the omni God that he supposedly were.Then he should surely have also "foreseen" what great damage was actually about going to happen with it.
Meaning if he actually existed .Then it seems he obviously didnt even care less if his holy bible was gonna be used "by many" to lead theist freaks to burn people at stakes, wrongfully accused as being witches.Or split and divide folks etc
Or care that people even use it to try to discredit himself the Almighty God ,like you yourself suggest you know happens.
If this book really honestly be word of God.Then it shows he is also as devotedly deluded as you are Marcus.
Why?
Because look, he go and allowed! a confusing worthless book to be written in his name, and so then also even allowed it to be used by people to discredit him.Leading many toward hell in the process.
That just aint so very smart.Certainly by a supposed, Almighty God.
Specially if this God is supposedly someone who really want more and more humans to love and want to know him.
The God you have "faith" in .Is a right dim-wit.A complete dunce!, Marcus.
An idiot who think he can somehow freely "allow" a confusing book to be written and then promoted in his name ,that then leads so very many astray causing harm.And many to start to discredit him etc
Marcus idea of almighty God.Is a Almighty God who likely gonna allowing a divisive confusing book to be written and promoted in the name of Almighty God .That then unwittingly gonna be used by so very very many to lead many astray, cause much suffering, harm and and death.And then even make many also start to even discredit Almighty God.
And then the Almighty God likely gonna punish the humans for it.
Almighty God is a almighty God that "allow" traps set in his name.
Marcus (part 2 of 2),
I expected my post about movies to generate a response from you, and was amused by the reference to the Matrix, and was prepared to argue why the comparison is inapposite.
But the remainder of your response shows your true stripes, and they are profoundly ugly.
Without knowing a single thing about me beyond the fact that I am loudly atheist, you condemn me as: Narcissistic, greedy, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to my parents, without love (what a horrible thing to say of a stranger), unforgiving, slanderous, brutal, treacherous, etc…
Such bile. For someone who has never done you any wrong, and about whom you know absolutely nothing. I didn’t think you a bad person, Marcus, and have never said anything negative about you other than that you are kidding yourself and rely on poor reasoning. I have certainly never cast aspersions on your moral character.
And yet I’m the one who’s going to hell.
Goodbye, Marcus. You and yours deserve each other.
Post a Comment