Our Efforts Here at DC Are Making a Difference
Here's an email I received from a man named Robert:
John,
Thank you for the time and effort you have put into your writing. I am a Christian of nearly 30 years; devout, church going, prayerful. I first found infidels.org about 2 years ago and it opened me up to the possibility that the Bible is false.
I then started listening to you and Ken Pulliam, Luke Muehlhauser and a few others. I've read The Christian Delusionand talked with some of the most scholarly Christians I know about how they would respond to what skeptics are saying.
I think about these issues every day:
-- Why does the Bible condone sex-slavery and genocide?
-- Why would a super-intelligent God seem unable to communicate his will without confusing millions of devout followers?
-- Why are the gospel accounts of Jesus death and resurrection in disagreement about what actually happened?
-- Why did Jesus tell people he would come again "in this generation" if it would be thousands of years later?
When I am honest - when I stop making stupid excuses for what the Bible says (and not what I want it to say) - the answers are obvious.
I might have never known that my Christian beliefs were wrong without people like you. Thank you. I don't know how I'm going to tell most of my friends and family about this, but even if they think I am delusional, I am happy to be free from the laws and mindset of ancient, superstitious people.
Sincerely, Robert
28 comments:
All the very best with your journey into the light, Robert. And thanks again, John, for your important work. History will remember you kindly.
One can only hope there are more people who will stop compartmentalizing their intellect so that the "truth" is asserted.
Good stuff.
All the very best in your journey away from the light ...although I am heartened by the fact that this 'Robert' character has created a fake story. Everything about it screams setup. Good try.
Double A: we all have fake stories then?
This is a fairly common story, Double_A. Happens every day. I have been approached quietly by many Christian friends who have said the same sort of thing, and who are at different stages in their "deconversion" (not a term I like, actually, because I still regard myself as a Christian Atheist). Some of them I had spotted "deconverting" a while back; for others, it was a bolt from the blue. Several of them still have prominent positions (lonely, they think) in their churches.
John, you and the DC chaps are indeed making a difference. You'll engage in fights with people who will never change their minds, but just write those people off - the real audience are the spectators, and they are realising the truth in their droves. Keep it up!
Yea...that sound like John ROBERT Loftus!
John,
I'm sure you allow DM to comment here because he/she is such an embarrassment to him/herself and the religious crowd all together. However, these insane posts *are* annoyingly long and sometimes repeated often on one post.
Sometimes that kind of drivel really takes away from a good post. All in all, I admire your patience and cannot see how you put up with all the stubborn idiocy, but I think it's great that somebody is doing it.
Robert has not told his family and friends yet so I don't want to out him. I'm sure people claiming this is fake would jump down my throat if I outted him before he was ready. But I get emails like this all of the time. Right now there is a guy in a master's program for a Christian college who would say the same things, as well as a guy who runs a pretty popular ministry. But no, these guys don't exist right? Okay, I guess.
Face it Harvey, even Jesus himself could not keep 10 of the 12 Apostles even though he taught them himself!
According to Acts, the Apostle John falls by the wayside before 25% of the Book of Acts is over and Peter (a Jesus favorite ) is drop shortly after the first half of Acts in favor of an Hellenistic Jew named Paul who neither saw nor heard the historical Jesus, yet his letters make up most of the New Testament and its theology of salvation!
I would have loved to sat down with the Apostle Andrew or the other Apostles after the crucifixion and had asked them: What the hell happened?
So, Harvey: Do you believe a man named Paul who never saw nor heard Jesus (but he, not Jesus, can tell you how to get saved) OR do you face the fact that 10 (Judas?) of the original 12 jumped ship never to be heard from again?!
The Apostles actions do speak louder than Paul’s words!
Good points shane!
John W. Loftus said... "Robert has not told his family and friends yet so I don't want to out him."
Really it would be wrong to do so without his permission.
John you just watch these faithful sneaks feeble atempts to suggest you should have need to prove Robert is real.
They would like to help "ruin anybodys trust" of emailing you.
------------------------
Who ever Robert is i wish him well in his journey.And i suggest he need not feel like being pressured into total atheism.There is agnostic/atheism in which people are still open to find good evidence for faith in supernatural matters, the difference is good evidence is first something that is needed!.
Whats extremly wrong and very callous and unthoughtful, in my opinion, is continued "promotion" of "blind faith" .It has been a killer and harmer and caused very much suffering for thousands of years now, happening with the suffering and spilled blood of far to many people who all payed the price of their lives on this earth, for peoples ideas hopes and dreams of salvation and some supposed eternal place called heaven.
Those who atleast are willing to stop and give these matters some more serrious in depth thought ,atleast show they are more honest and caring.And i have more respect for them.
Its the Double A types of this world that are a real worry.They are not even willing to considder they might be a little wrong.These people are the same type people who in days off old would have also found it just as easy to push on forward regardless of other who questioned matters..Pushed blindly forward to sacrifice live children in flames of fires,dreaming and hoping for better fertility etc
All the best wishes to Robert
Damn! Reading Robert's email to John sent warm tingly feelings up and down my spine! Just like I used to feel when someone gave their life to Jesus.
Robert will encounter difficult struggles and decisions ahead, such as the one I endure now, which is not revealing to my dear believing 87-yr-old mother that her son is a ex-believer. Except for that one person, I would shout my de-conversion from the rooftops.
And at 62 years old, I find myself having far fewer "friends" once I left the church (the christian friends don't really want to maintain an on-going relationship with an infidel), so I'm in the arduous process of building new social networks.
But I could never betray my rational self and go back to that life.
It's good to see some positive impact.
Making Robert up?!?!
How desperate has Christianity become?
If you want to see daily deconversion stories, in essay length, go to ExChristian.net and find a way to blame that on John. And there are other sites dealing with the same phenomenon.
See what you are leaving, Robert, and hopefully it gives you added courage.
Wesley said.."And at 62 years old, I find myself having far fewer "friends" once I left the church (the christian friends don't really want to maintain an on-going relationship with an infidel), so I'm in the arduous process of building new social networks."
Hi Wesley i had to write and say sorry to hear that and say i kind of understand your situation a bit.It is my "opinion" that along with all the divisions between the differing faith dominations ,also came another terrible effect on all our communities of imposing upon us a lot lessor ability for people in the communities to keep up with continuing the community or tribal spirit.
Faithful folks will often be quick to simply rubbish this opinion of mine.
But how do they suppose?, the blatant snobbery that existed within all the schisms and seperation issues with people moving off into differing church dominations, often feeling such a need to stay seperate and apart from each other , could likely never? have also had a real detrimental effect on our communities/tribes ability at large, to keep up with keeping the original traditional community spirit ?.
I cant see how it couldnt have had a large effect on our societies.
Faith have long been role models within all our communities, i doubt faithful folks can be so honest, and still try to deny that.
And role models do tend to have effects on many people around them,and if the role models have been, lots of people who tended to be self righteous snobs who liked to split and divided into lots of little groups.
I ask why should we really wonder why we have lots of societies today, where it seems we have seperate little groups and lots of people who are snobs. Who all to often dont seem to really care enough about any others not already known in their own special group.
When abusive fundy churches have often been so willing and fully prepared, to even totally disown their own family members!, should i really be so surprised in our society today there are even many people who will steal, bash,rape or kill, often without seeming to even give it much thought?.
Wesley its become a rather harsh society sadly in many ways.But anyway i hope there is some way you can find a new group of friends somewhere near you for more company.
I know how faithful folk often drop you like a rock once you dont agree with their beliefs.
Hi Robert
I live in a little hamlet just south of Canberra in the Australian Capital Territory, (your equivalent of Washington D.C.) and even at this distance your journey to reason and responsibility for your own actions is a cause for celebration. Congratulations! The realisation that something you had held so closely could be simply a house of cards can be quite a shock to the system. And yes it probably will be difficult in your timing for telling others about your discovery. Dan Dennett, philosopher, is currently researching through detailed interviews many pastors, priests, and clergy in general, and his preliminary findings seem to indicate there are many who have become agnostic/atheist but are unable to tell anyone, and are in quite an untenable situation. This is a testament to how corrosive such belief can be. As you can expect commenters such as Double A is ready to consign you to burn for eternity. Ask yourself, how juvenile is that?
Also to help out, Robert, a couple of other books I suggest you read are:
'A Letter to a Christian Nation' by Sam Harris
'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins
'God is Not Great - How Religion Poisons everything' by Christopher Hitchens, and John Loftus' own book, which I bought quite some years ago now, 'Why I Became an Atheist - a Former Preacher Rejects Christianity'
I think you'll find them incredibly enlightening.
Cheers and good fortune.
John,
I'm sure this DM commenter is a troll. I seem to recognise his formatting from a variety of other sites. A little unhinged I think.
Cheers
Hey Robert,
After many years of discovering that religion is all facade; it has no back and sides, I've gone on to understand that: if one has belief, knowledge is lacking. If one has knowledge, belief is unnecessary.
Cheers
Harry,
You said:"So, Harvey: Do you believe a man named Paul who never saw nor heard Jesus (but he, not Jesus, can tell you how to get saved) OR do you face the fact that 10 (Judas?)"
Well Harry I don't know what kind of question that that is, the Paul recorded in scripture met Jesus, heard Jesus even if he didn't see him. Obviously knew who he was.
Besides the apostles didn't jump ship as you suppose. Only one was lost by his own will and the foundation aof the church as recorded by Papias and other early church writers both apathetic and sympathetic to Christianity plce them all in place and doing their thing...so i have no idea what type of new novel speculation you're working on now.
Harvey,
First off, in Paul’s letters he nowhere states he saw or met Jesus. If you or any Christian thinks he did, then the burden of proof is on you Christians to prove your case!
Secondary, the Book of Acts is full of non-historical speeches such has Peter’s Pentecost Discourse and Stephens defense. Acts records of Paul’s travels and Paul’s own account cant not be harmonized and contradict one another (A Chronology of Paul's Life by Robert Jewett, 1979).
Thirdly, “Papias and other early church writers both apathetic and sympathetic to Christianity plce them all in place and doing their thing…” is again based on a person (Papias) who did NOT personally know nor lived in Jesus' life time either. Papais was likely “Saved” himself via Paul’s Theology of Grace!
The problem remains and remains outstandingly: Just what happened to the 10 original apostles after the crucifixion?
Give me one sermon (other than Peter's in Acts) they preached! Give me one Gospel they wrote (other than 1 Peter or the highly questionable 2 Peter)!
Why did the Beloved Apostle fall by the wayside?
Why does Peter and the Jesus Judaizers attack Paul and he attacks them.
Why does Paul tell the Galatians that Cephas (Peter, a personal favorite of Jesus and part of the special Jesus threesome inter circle) to quit playing Jesus the Jew with the Torah!
Plus, if Peter and James insist on circumcision, then let them castrate (ἀποκόψονται) themselves! (Gal. 5:12). True Christian love and fellowship here!
Is this the way to address 11 Original Jesus People.?
Harvey, you have yet to explain just how Paul (who neither saw nor met the earthly Jesus); who was NEVER taught by the earthly Jesus; ends up knowing more about Jesus to the point where he not only knows more soteriology than all the Original Apostles combined, but considers most of the Apostles (who ate, slept and spent months, if not years being taught directly by Jesus himself) his opponents and attacks them as Judaizers!
Admit it Harvey, salvation comes from Paul!! If not, please give me a Salvation Plan from the Synoptic Gospels! (Hell, I’ll even throw in John too.)
It is he - (Paul) - who gives Jesus’ life and death meaning via his invented anti-Torah theology.
It is also Paul who attacks any of the Original Apostles (who have no theology of salvation; what few remained after the crucifixion).
Apostles who left us no soteriology and almost, if not, anything!
Great posting, and with minor differences this could be my story as well. 58 years old, actively involved in the church since teenage years, Bible teacher, ministry leader, church camp, Christian college . . . all until last year when the whole house of cards fell apart for me as a result of carefully reading the Old Testament. I rapidly went through the loss of faith process, and in all honesty am fully an atheist at this point.
But my wife is a believer, my elderly father and his wife are believers, my whole identify has been rooted in the church for so many years . . . all extremely difficult to deal with.
I think it's strange anyone would think the letter is "made up." It rings of complete authenticity. And I appreciate its honesty and directness.
Lee
Lee, thanks for sharing. Robert emailed me and would like to write you. Just click on my blogger profile and send me your email. I'll send it on to him.
Cheers.
Bad John, stop making Lee up !!!
The reality is that born-again Christianity is in a transitional period (actually it has always been in some sort of transitional period for centuries)due to a reaction to biblical inerrancy any hyper-technicality and alleged critical thinking. Mainstream Christian apologists have not yet responded to much of the neo-objections to the Christian faith so many Christians are falling into agnosticism and atheism.
I don't believe that this is going to last. I am hoping and praying for some sort of intellectual reformation within evangelical conservativism which will accurately present what is really going on with biblical objection.
Guys like Robert and many others (including someone like Bart Ehrman) are often on a journey. Until they realize that their salvation is completely a miracle of God and His faithfulness to them they will never know their Heavenly Father's Love nor incredible GRACE in their lives.
It may take dying in a hospital with a group of born-again Christians praying around them before they finally come back to God.... but God will be glorified in the end...often in their greatest moment of weakness.
Question everything.
If I find myself dying in a hospital with a group of born-again Christians praying around me, before I die, with my last breath I will tell them to go to Hell...
...buy get out of my room first!
Post a Comment