Reality Check: What Must Be the Case if Christianity is True?
4) That the highest created being, known as Satan or the Devil, led an angelic rebellion against an omnipotent omniscient omnibenelovent omnipresent God, and expected to win--which makes Satan out to be pure evil and dumber than a box of rocks.
78 comments:
and the omnipotent omniscient omnibenelovent omnipresent god didn't see it coming.
oops.
Wasn't Satan supposed to be God's greatest angel before his fall? So God's best angel was actually ignorant enough to think that he could beat an all-powerful god? Especially hard to believe since Satan would have first-hand evidence of God's awesomeness.
The story strains credulity.
"The story strains credulity."
That is because it is all made up, of course, as I'm sure you're well aware.
:o)
Check the irony,Gods most perfect and holy creation (Lucifer) becomes the most evil of all His creations?
How does a holy being that was in the presence of God in the first place even become evil?
Its a contradiction say on one hand, that satan was the most pure and holy of Gods creations....and then on the other hand, say that satan became sinful and rebelled?....satan must not have been very holy to begin with if He could rebel against God, and therefore God most have made satan evil in the first place?....major contradiction here!
This is one of the core flaws in Christian theology. Its absurdity fairly screams at you, and yet the average Christian never gives it a second thought. They are far too caught up in the dramatic aspects of the story line to notice the hole in the plot. Once I noticed it, I was able to free myself once and for all from this absurd fairy tale.
I can hardly wait to hear the absurdities your Christian readers will come up with to defend this nonsense.
Jeez, I can actually hear the tornado of furious bible commentary page turning, as believers search for a credible defense of this War in Heaven nonsense.
John,
I did a similar series to yours. Mine was called "If Atheism is false, then..."
http://larrytanner.blogspot.com/2010/03/if-atheism-is-false-then.html
I like your formulations better.
As I've said, grappling with the flaw in the War in Heaven plot finally freed me from the absurd nightmare known as Christianity. I would imagine other former Christians must have encountered similar indigestible bits of theology that caused them to regurgitate the entire mess. I'd be interested in reading about them.
Isn't that whole "War in Heaven" story either apocryphal of in Milton's 'Paradise Lost'?
That furious page turning in the bible will probably continue unabated for some time...
I like to ask christians, "Why would anyone want to go to heaven, when satan saw it first hand and didn't like the way god ran it?"
Saying that satan rebelled because of his "pride" or whatever doesn't mean that non-prideful created beings couldn't also want to rebel; they just might other reasons for doing so.
And what keeps christians who wind up in heaven from drawing the short straw in the next stage of god's plan, so that one of them becomes the next satan? Calvinists created the doctrine "perseverance of the saints" out of wishful thinking; their own world view assumes that their god doesn't have to structure the universe for its creatures' convenience.
BTW,
toomanytribbles, I checked out your blog. I think I'm in love...
:o)
There is simply a lot of scriptural ignorance on many things that are discussed here and that is not a correct way how to debunk anything.
Angels have a will. Satan was the greatest Angel, is that not how pride comes? many who think they are great get the big head.
12 "You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.”
Ezekiel 28:12-14
"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.” Ezekiel 28:17
"you have set your heart as the heart of a god.” Ezekiel 28:6
"How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14
You can see that satan had a choice to walk in holiness or rebel and he chose the latter.
Also there was no oops in what God did, another ignorant statement. One who reads scripture can see that God had a perfect plan from day one. It may not make sense to you but then the bible says the ubeliever would call it foolishness.
1 Corinthians 1:18
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Anyay, to show you that this is no oops, her it goes from the beginning.
Genesis 3
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He (Christ)
shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”
"He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Christ shall crush satan (bruise head)but it will be done by Jesus being crucified (bruise heal). satan thought he was victorious when Jesus was hung on the cross but through it, was Christs greatest triumph as He died for the sins of man.
Colossians 1:20-23
20 and by Him (Christ) to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His CROSS.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight
Brilliant!
Well, we've heard from bible commentary checker number one.
Next!
Correct me if I'm wrong, gang, but the bible is not and cannot be evidence of itself.
Quote the bible all you want; it's still just a bunch of fairy tales written by men. Not inspired, not holy.
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
Saying that satan rebelled because of his "pride" or whatever doesn't mean that non-prideful created beings couldn't also want to rebel; they just might other reasons for doing so.
Thats doesnt say anything at all, you are grabbing at straws. Satan rebelled due to his pride, end of.
And what keeps christians who wind up in heaven from drawing the short straw in the next stage of god's plan, so that one of them becomes the next satan?
again, total biblical ignorance. Angels and humans are not the same. Angels cannot be saved and have no need to be saved from sin humans do. This human flesh (nature) is the problem.
Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
When Christ comes believers will be transformed and this body will be changed. we will not be able to sin.
I Corinthians 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[b]
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?[c]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[d]
1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be,but we know that when He (Christ) is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Bronxboy, ha ha ha!
GearEd, your statment goes against the whole point of the article for the article is written on the premise of sayint what the bible states doesnt make sense.
Accuracy should be the intended result of any discussion.
You guys have added nothihg of substance to your own unbelieving view of the article.
Who has an ear yo hear let him
hear!
@Paul:
Monumental fail. I asked for a credible defense, something a sane person can believe in, not a mere logic-free regurgitation of bible verses.
whoa! "Bronxboy ha ha ha"? Paul, why don't you just stick your tongue out at me and win the argument hands down?
Paul.
You miss the point!
How could Satan develop pride in his heart (which is considered a sin) if he was created as holy and pure being?
A holy and pure being cannot sin, that is exactly what makes them holy and pure!
If satan can develop a prideful and rebellious nature, then God must have created satan with a character flaw right from the beginning........and this contradicts the whole thing, and it also makes God to blame for how satan turned out anyway.
Shane,
your point will probably be countered with some nonsense about God giving his angels free will, but that still doesn't take into account the towering stupidity necessary for Satan to think he could possibly prevail against an almighty God. Did God deliberately create a stupid angel?
Satan the Stupid. That has a certain catchy ring to it. It could catch on.
All right, Paul get ready for this...
The question was in general what must be the case if Christianity is true? and the specific case referring to problems associated with Satan.
Personally, I consider the question of Satan to be of lesser import than some other GLARING flaws in the bible as a whole, but I'll stick to the topic.
"Christianity interprets the fall in a number of ways. Traditional Christian theology accepts the teaching of St Paul in his letter to the Romans "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3: 23)" and of St John's Gospel that "God so loved the world that he sent his only son (Jesus Christ) that whoever believes on him should not perish, but have everlasting life".[John 3:16]
The doctrine of original sin, as articulated by Augustine of Hippo's interpretation of Paul of Tarsus, provides that the fall caused a fundamental change in human nature, so that all descendants of Adam are born in sin, and can only be redeemed by divine grace. Sacrifice was the only means by which humanity could be redeemed after the Fall. Jesus, who was without sin, died on the cross as the ultimate redemption for the sin of humankind.
The dominant view within Christianity is that the serpent of Genesis was an incarnation of Satan, based on the reference in the Book of Revelation: "He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."
The Fall of Man
Salient points:
1) Some guy named ADAM never existed. It's a story, written about 4.5 billion years after planet earth accreted out of the solar nebula.
2) For the sake of argument, let's assume Genesis Ch.s 1-3 are literal truth, and that God has all the traditional attributes (omipotence, omniscience, etc.).
2a) an OMNISCIENT god would have known before creating Adam that he would fall from grace, yet he created an innocent and naive Adam anyway, then set him, Eve and the serpent (not identified as Satan in Genesis) in the garden and told Adam and Eve not to eat from that tree. This was all done with forethought and malice upon the part of god
2b) An OMNIPRESENT god would have found it necessary to hide from Adam so that Adam could feel comfortable while participating it the Original Sin, and the Serpent (who we hear was an angel once upon a previous time) also could hardly have been unaware of this and even states explicitly that god has lied to Adam and Eve (whether or not god really lied is immaterial; we're talking about what Satan did here).
3) these things, when taken together show beyond a doubt that Adam and Eve were set up to fail before they were created; that they were unjustly smeared with this "Original Sin"; and finally...
4) without having done these things, there would have been NO NEED FOR REDEMPTION, and no need for Jesus.
The bible IMPOSES the disease upon us (humans), then sets itself up as being the only "cure".
Talk about a bunch of self-serving nonsense.
Bronxboy.
Your right satan would have free will, but intention must come before an act.
So satans intent to do evil must have preceded his act of evil.
Thats why ask christians, where did this evil intent come from?
How would a holy angel who stood in the presence of God have the intent to do evil?
The only conclusion would be that satan was already created with this capacity for evil by God Himself.
This would make God to blame for satans disposition!
I cant see how satan (holy angel) would just develop evil out of nowhere?
Sorry GearHedEd, but you've veered off topic somewhat. The focus here was not on the fall of Adam and Eve, but on Satan's apparent stupidity in thinking he could prevail against an almighty God.
Paul said,
"...Angels cannot be saved and have no need to be saved from sin humans do. This human flesh (nature) is the problem."
Angels are without sin...
And Paul said,
"...Angels have a will. Satan was the greatest Angel, is that not how pride comes?"
Satan suffered from Pride, because of his will. Is not "pride" listed as one of the seven deandly SINS???
Dude, you have directly uttered in YOUR own words a fatal contradiction in your conception of this matter, and you didn't even notice it.
Priceless...
Shane,
I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately, the average Christian sees free will as the end-all answer to Christianity's deepest theological problems. They are incapable of grasping any implications beyond that.
BTW, I must credit Alan Watts with helping me to see the absurdity of such nonsense.
I got one word for ya, Bronxboy:
JOB.
Satan placed a bet against God? And he didn't think he'd lose, even though God is omniscient an KNOWS how things will turn out?
But I wasn't going specifically after the fall; I was defining a problem for Christianity that involved Satan.
i.e, without the fall, Jesus was extraneous.
I can hear the objection to Job winding up, too:...
"Job is allegory, not intended to be read literally! You're not dividing the scripture correctly!"
GearHedEd,
Your point is well taken, but it is still slightly off topic.
According to the Gospels, Jesus used his free will to follow Satan (Even though he knew Satan was a liar and a murder: You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn't stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and its father. John 8:44), yet Jesus (knowing this) chose to followed Satan for a total of 3 temptations as (if Jesus was hoping for a great deal).
Now get this: Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”( Matt 4:8 - 9).
So, if we are to believe all the other crap in the Bible, then we MUST believe the world is flat and that Jesus could climb high enough up (without an oxygen mask) to be able to see “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory” because the all knowing Biblical writers knew the earth was FLAT!!
So if Jesus was dumb enough to believe the earth was flat, and dumb enough to follow Satan (who he knew was bad), then with Free Will, anything is possible with both God and the Bible!
Amen Brother!! Glory!
OK, but as I noted above, Satan's rebellion is for the most part extra-biblical.
I therefore resolved to find problems in the source material.
Satan's rebellion may be extra-biblical, but there are certainly reams and reams of pretzel-twisting Christian commentary (starting with the Catholics) explaining and defending it.
I do appreciate you keeping me honest and on-track, Bronxboy.
About the commentary and speculations from the Christians:
those writings, while very detailed and often regarded as authoritative, aren't scripture.
Christians thrust the sword of scripture at me, I snatch it out of their hands and run 'em through with it.
If I had my way, I would eradicate all religion from the planet. It's the ultimate source of most of the conflicts we see today in the world.
I always thought that the theology of angels was that they had no free will. All they can do is secutfollow/implement God's will. In this line of thinking, Satan is not the evil one but the prosecutor of humanity. This is the Jewish interpretation, so far as I know.
Theology is malleable stuff. One tradition frames character x one way; another tradition reads the same character as representing something else entirely.
Paul's pleading for his special reading of "scripture" is based on one textual tradition. But others see his proof texts as mis-interpretations of mis-translations.
Paul's presentation of Ezekiel is a bit misleading in that it is given as if the text refers to the devil. But look again:
"(11) Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: (12) "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, So said the Lord God: You are the one who engraves images, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. (13) In Eden, the garden of God you were; every precious stone was [set in] your covering; ruby, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and crystal and gold; the work of your drums and your orifices is in you; on the day of your creation they were established. (14) You were a cherub of great measure, that covers, and I gave that to you; you were on the mount of the sanctuary of God: you walked among stones of fire."
Thus, the two big points are: (1) Scripture is the enemy of theology, and (2) Arguing about theology has as much pragmatic value as learning Klingon.
GearHedEd,
Your absolutely right, but most Christian doctrine is a result of totally unjustified extrapolation from scripture.
If God is truly omnipotent and omniscient then he would have created Satan to do exactly what he did.
Every good story needs a protagonist and an antagonist.
God needs the Devil, or he wouldn't have made him.
Or it is all just bullshit.
I agree with that 100%, Bronxboy.
Come on folks, I'm still waiting to hear from other bible believing Christians on this topic. Surely you must have found some credible defense of this nonsense by now. The silence deafening.
Some of this discussion is quite surprising because the arguments are weak.
Shane
No where in scripture states that satan was holy, the only reference I see to holy angels is in then new testament.
Again where there is a will, evil can take place. Its as with Adam and Eve. They lived in a perfection but because they had a choice, according to scripture sinned againts God.
Bronxboy, really? at the very least we must behave like adults. I laughed because I though your response was pretty funny. You say you want truth, nah! You seem to know it all.
Larry Tanner - here is a read.
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/21170/eVerseID/21172
Jude 1:6
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day
II Peter 2:4
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Luke 10:18
18 And He (Jesus) said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
GearHeEd, I commented incorrectly. Satan having free will, had the ability to sin. Scripture says he got proud.
satan's rebellion is not extra biblical at all, you can read the others things I have posted.
Anyway, I have witnessed things that would make you guys blood curdle. Whether one thinks it sensible that an al powerful all knowing God would create an satan is irrelevant as we can have victory over evil regardless so there is no issue but to the infinite proud minds of man.
1 Corinthians 1:25
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Peace out!
finite .... minds, that would be
Paul,
You can quote scripture until the cows come home. The fact is, you haven't addressed the question of how Satan, God's covering angel, standing in the direct presence of God, could have been stupid enough to think he could challenge the Almighty. Pride is one thing (though even that is hard to imagine in the light of Satan's direct knowledge of his dependency on God for his very existence), stupidity is something else entirely. You are raising stupidity to the level of an uncaused cause.
Paul,
We are all of us familiar with what scripture asserts. There's no need to keep quoting it back to us. What we are dealing with here is whether those assertions make sense or not. Quite obviously, the mere fact that the bible makes these assertions is enough for you, whether there is even a scintilla of logic in them apparently doesn't concern you. If you had been born a Muslim, you would clearly be a candidate for a suicide bombing mission.
A couple of things here.
1) God is omniscient, Yes or No?
If you're a good Christian, you MUST say yes.
2) God is Omnipresent, Yes or No? (Realize that Omnipresent implies everywhere and everyWHEN)
If you're a good Christian, you MUST say yes.
Now let's look at prophecy for a moment. God communicates His will through the Prophets and scripture. Now remembering that God knows everything, he can cause a prophet to prophesy accurately because GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE (if you deny this, then Revelation is just another trippy story written under the influence of bread mold).
If God knows the future, then the future is set.
If the future is set, then we HAVE NO FREE WILL, only the illusion of free will. We're just puppets playing our set part.
Omniscience negates free will.
You Christians are left with the choice:
Either Prophecy is a valid concept, and we have no free will (You can't choose this-it deprives God of Omniscience),
or
Prophecy is NOT valid and we have free will. (Christians please note that you have again deprived God of his Omniscience again here, so you can't choose this either).
A paradox?
NO!!!
There's a third option:
The bible is not true.
Oops.
The chioice should read:
"Either Prophecy is a valid concept, and we have no free will (You can't choose this-it deprives humanity of choice and responsibility. Also, if we are not free agents, then God reduces to an evil dungeon master, playing with his toy people),
or
Prophecy is NOT valid and we have free will. (Christians please note that you have again deprived God of his Omniscience again here, so you can't choose this either).
Paul,
your fellow Christians should be ashamed of themselves for allowing you to be their sole champion in this matter.
As I said, Paul not withstanding, the silence is deafening.
crickets are kinda loud, though.
Toomanytribbles:
Wow! just checked out your site. Fantastic photos! After seeing your photos, I hesitate to even characterize myself as an amateur photographer. (In case you're curious, you can find my pix under Bronxboy47 on Flickr.)
I do apologize for this off topic post. It just couldn't be helped. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Paul.
You said "nowhere in scripture does it say satan was holy"?
You cant be serious....lol.....
How do you think satan could have been in the presence of God for any length of time if satan was never a holy being?
I thought the scripture said no sin can enter into heaven Paul?
Also, you walked right into my other point.
If satan was never holy, then God obviously made him the way he is, and therefore it is actually Gods own fault!
To everyone, mostly Paul!
If anyone wants to know how much of a hypocrite christians can be here's an example.
Paul quoted Ezekial 28:12 in regards to satan in a previous post which says-"You were the seal of perfection full of wisdom and perfect in beauty".
Then in argument against one of my posts to him he said-" Shane, nowhere in scripture does it say satan was holy"???????????????
Well paul, if the bible says satan was created perfect, and was ion the presence of God, then I guess that would mean he was pretty holy! (according to the bible).
Arrogance.
John.
Thats the answer.
Arrogance is dumb.
John.
Shane,
You're batting a thousand. Give Paul time to chew on this for a while. As I said, this was the thorny problem that finally convinced me every other assertion found in scripture was totally irrelevant unless some sense could be made of its assertions about God's relationship with Satan.
Winston Smith,
We've had all afternoon to contemplate your cryptic utterances about arrogance, but I can't seem to make heads or tails of them. Could you possibly favor us with something a bit more lucid? Something less "drive by"?
Otherwise we'll just have to continue to enjoy the cricket serenade.
Winston Smith said...
Arrogance.
John.
Thats the answer.
Arrogance is dumb.
John.
May 17, 2010 6:51 PM
----------------------------
Oh look its that twat Winston Smith, that lil sock puppet from over at http://debunkingloftus.blogspot.com/ ....A blog run by bitter christians and tosssa`s with some sort of mental issue (personal hate) syndrome .Winstone Smith aka Frank Walton, the poor fellow who once often posted here and seemed to have a hat smelling fetish,possibly some christian closet undie sniffer, with guilt issues.
They all get to feeling so lonely over at that blog....Waaaa ...boo hoo ...The christian jesus following J P Holding and co gets all sorry about matters when nobody much seems that keen on commenting on their blog, created entirely out of (personal hate) for somebody.Waaaa waaaaaa, it gets horribly lonely when there is only a few like District Supt. Harvey Burnett http://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111 having a bitch and a personal gripe about atheists they must surely hold personal hate for.Boo Hooo ...Why wont folks bother buying J P Holdings books ?? ...Why o why dont people enjoy reading the babblings of faithful gits with an obvious inferority complex, which makes them feel personal hatered and a need to post on worthless blogs designed only to slag somebody personally ...Waaaa Waaaaa o woe is us at http://debunkingloftus.blogspot.com/ ..We are but bitter and twisted lost souls, feeling sorry for ourselves, who instead of doing something POSITIVE like writing a blog thats arguing our own position of belief, are instead far to busy having a personal type bitch and a cry at John Loftus.
---------------------------
To all the decent christians who visit this blog Debunking Christianity.What do you think of these spoil sports who`s only option seems to be (personal blog) attacks on people?.Im talking about blogs designed entirely to personally attack one person...What does it make you feel to know that some jesus followers like J.P.Holding and Harvey Burnett seem to be keen on helping promote sock puppets like Winston Smith to come post worthless crap on this blog that (only serves to annoy and ruin it for everyone else) when moderation then needs to be put back into effect?.All it achieves is makes more work for John.
Sure i admit, it must be pretty tough and a real kick in the ego for Winstone Smith and Harvey Burnett and J.P.Holding And Truth be Told etc etc ... to swallow,that Debunking Christianity has shown it can run without need of moderation !,until sockpuppets from these bitter christians blogs arrive
Oh woe is me Jesus ...Why has thou forsaken me and my poor little debunking John Luftus blog, where hardly anyone bothers to post but which still needs moderation.
If there is any decent Christians reading this, who dont believe personal attacks by way of personal blogs so obviously designed entirely only to personally attack someone,is such a decent attitude to take.
How about going over to both these blogs and reminding these Christians what you think of it.
Im interested because.
Harvey Burnett over on his blog waffles on often about, reminding his own followers how certain COGIC (Church of God In Christ) priests need to be seen to display a better image for the church.And he runs down all sorts of other christians who he feels dont make the grade as christians.etc
Yet Harvey is happily involved in a personal hate blog,a blog purposly created to attack one person and one person only.... John Loftus
Christians..is this really the path your Jesus would choose?
Can you say you are honestly proud of these bitter twisted (personal hate) type christian bible following people?
If not ...I suggest maybe its about time some of you started telling these sad arse nasty people what you think about it.
Winston Smith ..like blogger DM ...Actually has little worthwhile to say ...So like a little child reverts to blog bombing ..trys tactics of ruining things for any others....ohhhh what a hero ..hmmm
Gandolf,
On the upside, if the xians went to the trouble of creating a blog just to attack John Loftus, then he must be getting under their skin.
I don't go to xian blogs myself because as Frank Zappa said,
"...those Jesus freaks,
Well, they're friendly but
The shit they believe
Has got their minds all shut."
It's a futile effort.
@ John W. Luftus
Day 2
Well, John, it seems your Christian readers aren't exactly falling over themselves to defend this core piece of Christian mythology. I think you've struck a serious nerve with this one. Let's see what today brings.
"If God knows the future, then the future is set.
If the future is set, then we HAVE NO FREE WILL, only the illusion of free will. We're just puppets playing our set part.
Omniscience negates free will."
This is one of the biggest misconceptions about making choices and observing them. If you film a group of humans making choices..and then sit in a room with people watching the film and tell people what is about to happen (what choices they are about to make) - this does NOT mean that no choice was made...just because you KNEW what the choice was going to be because you had already seen the film or filmed it yourself.
The point is that an observation of a "choice" does NOT mean that no choice takes place.
Look around. We make choices every day. If there was no choice then there could be no love. Love requires choice.
God's atemporal existence allows God to not only observe our choices but actually infinitely interact with them (imperfect statement which defames the incredible process by which God works and can not fullly be defined with temporal language).
In the "bible" the apostle Paul Iin Romans 8 uses the same word that James uses which means "together act with."
God together acts with (sunergei)our choices. This is very important and theology there is also what used to be called the doctrine of "concurrence." It is where our choice occurs simultaneously with God's choice (Pharoh hardened his own heart it says..while it also says that God hardened Pharoh's heart)
God knowing "what we will absolutely choose" does NOT mean we don't have choice. Knowing what someone will choose because you observed it (and recorded it into a medium like a record or a film/home movie) doesn't take away the choice...
it only shows that you are falsely looking at God as though He is stuck on some linear progressive consecutive timeline which is complete foolishness because one aspect of His omniscience is based on the fact that He is atemporal/transcendent/omni-time.
Our absolute choices are real and so is God's knowledge of them All of them. Claiming you can't choose differently than what God knows is evasive to self-impulsion
(with respect to volition - NOT self-sustaining). Each person possesses limited sovereignty based on their abilities (assuming healthy and learning)and circumstances.
Choice is real..so is God's knowledge of what we will CHOOSE.
Point # 4 is clearly incomplete.
It fails to deal with Satan's jealousy of Adam and how he became prideful and how this pride blinded him and what his circumstances were. It fails to address the circumstances of 1/3 of the angels who agreed with him and followed him and why. It fails to address the difference between being perfect and being blameless "in your ways" (as in haven't committed evil yet).
Paul hit the nail on the head when it comes to the reality of "free will" (imperfect description)or volition and how Lucifer had this innate ability because of choice itself.
Lucifer may have temporarily "loved" God at the time he was still a good angel. His problem was that he didn't know how incredibly beautiful God was and how God works through humility and weakness and rewards logical humility and faithfulness.
Clearly, it is more complicated than this. The highest created being became proudful and jealousy of Adam contributed as well as other circumstances.
It was a potential byproduct of volition and Paul here was writing words of wisdom.
"How would a holy angel who stood in the presence of God have the intent to do evil?"
Lack of knowledge that needed to be learned...but this can not be over simplified. Knowing you should always be content with what God is doing and where God has placed you, as an angel, for one.
Man was going to be glorified in a way that Lucifer could not experience. Jealousy from the discontent of losing his position, for one. His volition created the potential byproduct for disobedience.
It has everything to do with how choice is a danger to a finite created being. Question everything.
GearHedEd said... "Gandolf,
On the upside, if the xians went to the trouble of creating a blog just to attack John Loftus, then he must be getting under their skin.
I don't go to xian blogs myself because as Frank Zappa said,
"...those Jesus freaks,
Well, they're friendly but
The shit they believe
Has got their minds all shut."
It's a futile effort."
Hey GearHedEd,i kind of agree with you.Except it is not just christians involved,seems to be it must just mostly be some real bitter and twisted folk.
I mean seems fine creating a blog about atheism or the catholic church or Islam or political fraud or whatever other group or problem you want to discuss.
But a blog with a group of people all bitter and twisted and forever unforgiving of any imperfection ,and only based on personally attacking one person ??@#%?? ...Sad ...Real lowly
Specially when there is a number of so called christian involved ..Some supposedly resonably prominant in the christian community like J.P,Holding ...And the practicing church pastor Harvey Burnett.
They all enjoy getting kicks from having some personal hate session on John for what ever imperfections they know of his past which they hold onto like some trophys to try and prove he really must be the son of satan or some dribble ,inflaming walleys like Winston Smith from their tribe of twisted sisters to come over here and just be annoying,along with that wanker DM just making more work with moderation and spoiling it for everyone else.
(What is it these christians dont get about humans not being perfect? )...Hell even most of us atheists realize most folks make mistakes and boo boo`s and have to learn and try and change old bad habits .But we learn to forgive and forget just as we hope others will of our own mistakes also.
Sad when prominant christians (even after reading their bible) and supposedly (following their Jesus),cant seem to grasp this simple piece of the golden rule.Do unto others as you would have them do to you....So whats the problem?..Why the need for such personal hate? ...Why the need for a personal hate blog aimed intirly at one peson?..Is that what they would have others do unto them?
I mean GearHedEd i really dont get on so very well with Harvey i even feel he`s a bit of a fraud as far as honest christians traits go ...But im not about to get all bent and twisted and start up some blog purposly designed to only personally attack and slang Harvey off forever more.
How boring ..How sad...And if you take a look at their sad arse blog where hardly anyone ever ventures unless they are actually bent and twisted and vengeful for personal attacks against John ..Thats how it honestly looks ..All sad and twisted and lonely childish bully tactics.
I mostly just feel sorry for these people .Cant see what they hope to prove ..That somebodies not perfect ?? ..What really ??? ..Well Duh!
GearHedEd i do go to quite a few xian blogs and sure i might speak my mind and maybe some of my posts even get heated .But i still have some respect that its their blog and if they ever ask me to leave well i would ...I can say this ..Nobody will find any xian blog on the net where i go to cause problems and hassle the blog owner and make work and a need for moderation....in effect ruining it for everyone .
I issue this statement ive make here as a challenge to all xians ...find one blog on the net where im continually annoying like DM and Winston Smith, where i have been asked to leave even once without respecting the wish.
They wont be able to.Because even though im a non believer i still happen to have some decency and respect left for other humans.And im just not into "personal hatered" of anyone.
GearHedEd im sorry, i just cannot really understand these type people.
By the way,also happen to really enjoy Frank Zappa
"...those Jesus freaks,
Well, they're friendly but
The shit they believe
Has got their minds all shut."
I would answer all the rest of the stuff but this takes the care right here.
You cannot argue with a transformed life, talk all the crap you want to, I did the same thing, I was not born in a Christian family and was not influenced such.
I will noy put anyone down because I was also blind and had my mouth full of bull crap about Christ but when I needed God and turned to Him he proved Himself to me.
Some people think this is purely a phylisophical debate but when one has felt the power and presence of God, whether one deems scripture to make sense it totally irrelvant.
God has already said that the preaching of the cross is foolishnes (to those who perish), He said it please him to use the foolishness of preaching to save someone so when some says it foolishness you are actually agreeing with what God said.
He knew smart people like us would despise it and be proud.
Humans are a trip, we dont even know our own mind and then we try to discount God. How funny.
This individual says Christians have a closed mind! well a man who finds truth stops searching? And open to what? Give up Christ and the hope of eternity and then take up the mindset that you are worth as much as a flea and have no hope at all but for this wicked earth. Have no absolute morals.
Athiesm, offers absolutely nothing to society, its only there trying to tear down God and for what reason I dont know as real Christians make this world a better place to live in. I said in a prior article, this is not a a belief that can stand on its own merit. You must always mention God to have a discussion.
Mi vex to blow wow!!!
Shane no one was being a hypocrite. I never saw a verse of scripture that has the words satan is holy.
Look up the definition of Holy, only God is holy in its truest sense, there is no evil in Him at all. When you say someone or something is holy, it refers to actions and obedience not that they are the very nature of holiness as God is.
Perfect means the same thing, satan was perfect towards God in his service and was perfect in beauty. It doesnt mean he didnt have a will. Go it.
Paul said..."This individual says Christians have a closed mind! well a man who finds truth stops searching? And open to what? Give up Christ and the hope of eternity and then take up the mindset that you are worth as much as a flea and have no hope at all but for this wicked earth. Have no absolute morals."
Have no absolute morals? ..What the??? are you on about Paul.Any morals we considder absolute are realted to our social humanity,not related to any gods.Take murder for instance most every human realize murders not great,even including those humans in tribes in jungles who had absolutely no faith in any god-/s .All humans agree not because of gods,but because human beings are social beings who need others around,and murder would be self defeating and even lead to extinction because if murder was thought great,sooner or later only one human would be left to survive.
It really is that simple Paul.Its really no biggy most all humans dont feel blatant murder is really so great.
Its only when we get into other areas of ending life that any ideas of absolutes start to disappear,but still we see it happens with both believers and non believers alike.
We murder some folks in wars Right Paul? ..Even death of those accused as witches or in faithful crusades .And then there is abortion or euthanasia etc,these things including war and witch killing involve thought about matters of whats considdered best outcome overall and has not so much to do with blatant murder which most all human happen to see as wrong.
No morals ..How arrogant and ignorant of you to try suggest those without god-/s are immoral.Holy hecta Paul we only need to look at history and read the bible to see god-s dont create morals ...Humans do
As to the rest you wrote what are you saying? ..Are you saying when you find god you should close your mind and stop looking?.
If so.What if you happen to be (mistaken) and it wasnt god you found .You might have found a god you thought was Islamic,when god might be christian and Islamic faith be some devil..And vice versa.
Tell me Paul would you likely suggest some Muslim closes his/her mind?.
And taking this matter further if you dont suggest closing your mind when deciding between faiths,why then any differnce when conssidering further if infact any god or god-s actually exist?.
If it was you were trying to suggest non believers have closed minds ...Let me suggest thats a load of codswallop if ever i heard some...What evidence do you see on forums like this that honestly suggests non faithful are not still open to any evidence for a need for faith in god-/s ?.
Sure non believers wont simply accept somebodies own personal experiences as evidence.But there is really good "reason" for that.
If humans were to willy nilly simply accept personal experiences,Paul you`d have us all simply believing in ghosts, goblins,witches,fairys,pink elephants,aliens,need of human sacrifice and all manner of faiths.
Its just far to dangerous! for starters Paul ...Before even considdering the utter stupidity of such arrogant ignorance.
Im still! open to faith in god-/s,can you please provide any good proof?.
Sure i cannot provide proof to disprove God-/s,but still the fact remains history is full of deaths caused by all manner of faith guess work,proving how very wrong it is to simply guess they do exist .And think about it Paul, you cannot provide me evidence to prove pink elephants dont exist either!,so maybe lack of proof to disprove god-/s ammounts to little more, than its just far to hard to find hard evidence to disprove something that doesnt actually even exist.
You said.."Give up Christ and the hope of eternity and then take up the mindset that you are worth as much as a flea and have no hope at all but for this wicked earth. Have no absolute morals."
While banking so much on "your"! eternity, like some thoughtful kind husband willing to gamble the wage thats supposed to provide life and put food on the table each week in considderation of other people in your life.
While having eyes set on this supposed salvation for "you",please tell Paul,how often do you actually bother to stop to considder in any great depth!? all those other people suffering IN THIS LIFE HERE ON EARTH...Through continued (promotion) of superstitious faith .The women abused.The kids still accused as witches and killed in places like Africa.Those stuck in abusive religious faiths and cults often through birth and no choice of their own.Families split and devided over faith.Those who are driven to commit suicide through heartbreak cased by faith belief.
While be so willing to gamble for salvation for "YOU"....Do you ever stop very often to think of others effected by your faith gambling instinct Paul?
Pffftt....PLEASE ....PLEASE Paul....Dont try handing me this bulls**t that lack of faith supposedly = lack of morals
God people right down throughout all history have proved time and time again, honesty of morals are not so much connected to faith.
Faith needs to have humanity Paul,as without all you have is dogma and bulls**t
Faith or no faith ,surely we should atleast wish to try to use some honest judgement.Do you honestly feel so great with your injust jugement of those without god supposedly lacking morals?.
I think you need to start to look at yourself more Paul,before being so judgmentle and condemning of others
Paul,
You said: You cannot argue with a transformed life.
Oh really? What do you think you're doing when you discount the testimony of millions of Hindu's, Muslims, Jainists, Scientologists, Baha'is, Jews, Shintoists, etc., who honestly believe their live to be sustained and transformed by their religion? You appear to be perfectly capable of not only arguing with them but of dismissing their views with a mere wave of your hand.
You also said: He knew smart people like us would despise it.
Like "us" did you say? So God deliberately designed a salvation plan exclusively for the simple-minded and the credulous? Is that what you're saying? How did you wind up in both camps at once? Or are you admitting to deliberately making yourself stupid for the sake of the gospel?
You also said: There is no evil in him (God) at all...
If there is no evil in God, then where did evil come from? Nothing can exist without God creating and--just as importantly--sustaining it. Otherwise, evil would be an uncaused caused, capable of creating, sustaining and perpetuating itself as an entity independent of God,or at the very least, it would be a flaw in something created by the first uncaused caused, i.e. God.
If God is incapable of evil, then he doesn't even have the free will he grants to his angels and to humanity. He is perfectly immune to temptation, ignorance, and fear, things he allows us to be constantly harassed by, while reserving the right to judge and condemn us when we succumb to forces he himself has released upon us, and to which he, and he alone, is immune. Sounds like he's playing with loaded dice.
God's immunity to evil is yet another instance in Christianity's grand cosmic soap opera that makes no sense. We are expected to believe that the outcome of the Christ saga was preordained and not preordained at the same time. We are expected to seriously believe that God, immune to sin and error, put his entire creation in jeopardy, by becoming a man and allowing himself to be tempted by Satan. It makes for exciting drama, but it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. God cannot be tempted, no matter what guise he might find himself in. So the whole temptation business was an empty exercise. The outcome was never in doubt.
Paul, I'm afraid your theology is full of black holes.
There are men (smart men) caught in the act of cheating whose first words out of their mouths are: ``it's NOT what it looks like!" and "honey, I can explain!".
There are men (smart men) who know that the end of sin is everlasting hell, yet who still sin and can't help it.
What do all these smart men (and angels) have in common? Passions. Sinful weaknesses which cloud the intellect. Satan couldn't stand the existence of a Being superior to him: period. Pride & envy were his passions.
So if your point was that some people (and some angels) are weak & stupid, your point is granted. -- and if your revolt is against weakness and stupidity, I can understand it: but if it's against REALITY ITSELF, then I'm afraid I have to say that I don't follow your reasoning.
@Lvka
"...then I'm afraid I have to say that I don't follow your reasoning."
That doesn't surprise me.
"What do you think you're doing when you discount the testimony of millions of Hindu's, Muslims, Jainists, Scientologists, Baha'is, Jews, Shintoists, etc., who honestly believe their live to be sustained and transformed by their religion?"
Watching them NOT worship the infinite Creator and sing praise songs to Him all over the world in the peace and love that God intended to be optimal "for us" (not for Him...God doesn't need our worship).
A transformed life of a Christian is a life that is marked not only with "faith" (like you can claim with other religions) but also with "grace." God's grace in FORGIVING them of their objective guilt of the law. Find an Atonement for sin/consequences for sin and this aspect of grace in any other religion.
A response of novelty fallacy is incongruous to the points, btw.
"Or are you admitting to deliberately making yourself stupid for the sake of the gospel?"
We are all logically ignorant of an infinite degree of mathematics and logic. We are all fools who know very little...who will deliver us from a world of ridiculous alleged possibilites, invalid inductions and circular reasonings?
We need to be saved from our own potential for deception...that is why prayer for protection is so logical. Question everything.
"If there is no evil in God, then where did evil come from?"
These are very good questions and VERY important to understand the answer.
Paul and Lvka are correct..God did not create sin/disobedience and their is no moral evil within Him..God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. God is Holy and this is why evil is opposed to His nature. That doesn't mean that God doesn't judge, however...and often ill circumstances which are NOT blessings are referred to as evil or calamity. These, God has no trouble claiming responsibility for.
Moral evil, however is different. It is the result of "choice." It is a potential byproduct of choice and there have been many systematic theologians like Peter Kreeft who have made logical arguments as to how God did not create moral evil...but allowed for its existence by creating "choice" (so that love could exist).
"Nothing can exist without God creating and--just as importantly--sustaining it."
God's infinite power and order sustains the being of "choice" - but God does not remove their ability to choose or their self-impulsion as far a volition goes.
Here is the complexity. God creates little creators. He created us in His Image and therefore we too have the ability to create thoughts, be imaginative, be artistic, etc.
We also can choose freely (with limited options based on circumstances).
"Otherwise, evil would be an uncaused caused,"
Moral evil is clearly caused by the person/entity which chooses it.
It is a potential byproduct of the ability to choose but NOT a direct creation or choice from God.
If it was from God, then it would be illogical for God to ever judge anyone for their decisions.
"capable of creating,
moral evil is a result..NOT a consciousness or an entity that creates. God creates and we because we are created in His Image have limited sovereignty.
"sustaining and perpetuating itself as an entity independent of God,"
It is the "result" of a decision/action.
"or at the very least, it would be a flaw in something created by the first uncaused caused, i.e. God."
It is NOT a flaw to have true love. In true love you can't say yes if you can't say no. You can't agree with God if you can't disagree.
To disagree with God is a moral evil.
These are good questions that need to be answered.
"If God is incapable of evil, then he doesn't even have the free will he grants to his angels and to humanity."
I laughed when I first read this..
It is sort of like the objection "God is not omnipotent because He can't become satan..."
What you don't realize is that you are looking at good and evil as though they are independent from God or above God. Such a view not only has a God concept that is too small, but it also fails to understand how good and evil are NOT exact opposites. Good is the standard of being consistent with God's Nature and the Owner of the Universe's very "will." Evil is not a standard...Good judges evil -evil does NOT judge good. But let's look at "he doesn't even have the free will" statement you made earlier.
God is NOT a man (although He became a Man through Jesus)that He should have to "wait" to come to a specific point in time..and then make a decision like we do. IF He did, then He wouldn't be omniscient. What you are doing is saying "God can't be good because He is infinite/atemporal/trascendent" and doesn't make decisions like we do.
"He is perfectly immune to temptation, ignorance, and fear, things he allows us to be constantly harassed by,"
We are not infinite...we are not omniscient..and there is no reason to believe that God should (or that it is even logical)create us to be omniscient (which would logically require being infinite).
We have to learn.
"while reserving the right to judge and condemn us when we succumb to forces he himself has released upon us,"
He Owns the universe. He created us. He is infinite and we are finite. Special pleading is logically justifiable with such relationship.
"and to which he, and he alone, is immune."
Only He is infinite.
"Sounds like he's playing with loaded dice."
Or it sounds like your concept of God is far too small and you expect way too little from Him.
He is omniscient.
"God's immunity to evil is yet another instance in Christianity's grand cosmic soap opera that makes no sense."
Can God the Father somehow disobey Himself? I know this is in reference to Christ (the Man that God became)..but look that this with respect to your prior objection.
"We are expected to believe that the outcome of the Christ saga was preordained and not preordained at the same time."
The English word "preordained" here is clearly imperfect and we would need to spend hours looking at the difference between caused and ordained..and what is meant by ordained (or the state of ordination) and how we need to remove the past tenses from the words lest we fall into the trap of plotting God on a linear consecutive timeline.
"We are expected to seriously believe that God, immune to sin and error, put his entire creation in jeopardy,"
It is a good thing that Jesus didn't call 10,000 angels. Salvation came to us through Jesus' love. It was the Power of Love, both for God the Father and for us that conquered sin and death through Jesus.
"by becoming a man and allowing himself to be tempted by Satan. It makes for exciting drama, but it doesn't make a damn bit of sense."
Don't look at it like a "test" to find out the answer. Look at it like a prove...to prove how much He loved. We as Christians are cut to the heart because of the love of Christ. When we think about how He had us in mind...as well as how He set the Example to us in how to love the Father and be obedient..we are drawn to tears.
"God cannot be tempted, no matter what guise he might find himself in. So the whole temptation business was an empty exercise. The outcome was never in doubt."
Jesus was the Man God became. Jesus WAS tempted as a Man. He did NOT have a sin nature *and* because of His LOVE for us..and His Love for the Father..He endured even to the Cross.
Don't you see that this is all about love?
"Grace" is imaginary, just like everything else about your God, Breckmin.
"Prayer" for anything is just organized noise without force or effect.
Example:
A man gets some form of cancer, and is in the hospital for treatment. There are two possible outcomes: either he gets well again, or he dies.
Naturally, his family prays for him.
If he lives, they say, "Praise the lord, our prayers have been answered!"
If he dies, They say stupid things like "God works in mysterious ways" and "The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away".
The point is that prayer had zero effect on the random flip of a coin outcome.
"Breckmin said,
The English word "preordained" here is clearly imperfect and we would need to spend hours looking at the difference between caused and ordained..and what is meant by ordained (or the state of ordination) and how we need to remove the past tenses from the words lest we fall into the trap of plotting God on a linear consecutive timeline."
How is the claimed three hundred or so prophecies in the Old Testament concerning Jesus' birth, parentage, life, actions, death, and resurrection not DIRECT EVIDENCE that your previous statement is utter Bullshit?
Breckmin:
You have replied to the points I've raised from the most bafflingly oblique angles, and in language that is practically incoherent. You'll forgive me if I decline to respond to your non-responses.
Paul said,
"...I was also blind and had my mouth full of bull crap about Christ but when I needed God and turned to Him he proved Himself to me."
Which PROVES you were NEVER an atheist, you were just pissed at your God for not answering your prayers or whatever.
If you were ever REALLY an atheist, you'd still BE one.
Breckmin said,
"...Find an Atonement for sin/consequences for sin and this aspect of grace in any other religion."
Show me another religion that has the cosmic huevos to claim that we are all scum that don't deserve to be saved (or even NEED to be saved) unless we kiss ass for all eternity.
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