Reality Check: What Must Be the Case if Christianity is True?
3) There must exist a perfectly good, omnipotent God, who created a perfectly good universe out of a desire/need to glorify himself by rewarding in heaven the few human beings who just got lucky to believe by being born at the right time and place, and who will condemn to hell those who do not believe.
54 comments:
Exactly!
What about the fact that the gospels weren't even written till 50-90 years after the fact>?
What about the fact that the gospel took centuries to get to all peoples....which....thousands and thousands died without even being able to hear of Christ?
The fact that the gospel didn't reach North America till roughly 1500 years after Jesus death....how many souls would have been lost in a 1500 year time span....?
The christian faith is bogus!....or...God is not omnibenevolent and fair!
"There must exist a perfectly good,"
There "is" a perfectly good God Who created all that is in the universe and sets the standard for perfection in His own universe by the fact that He created and sustains it.
"omnipotent God,"
The English word "omnipotent" is problematic because of what it is supposed to encompass. All-logically-powerful God takes away the nonsense of self-contradictory application as well as cosmological principles which can not be violated. (i.e. there is no reason to believe it is possible to create an omniscient being who doesn't need to learn).
"who created a perfectly good universe"
There is a problem with understanding "how can we have *evil* in a perfectly good universe?" God allowing the inevitable potential byproduct of 'choice' (which is bad choices until you have learned to always make good choices)complicates this - as well as His judgement on those who make such bad choices and taint His Perfect creation with their violation and such disobedience (regardless of whether it is out of ignorance).
You can not over simplify the "RELATIVE" use of English words such as "good" and "evil" without addressing both the dual reality of "evil" as well as the equivocation we will run into in an actual wise discussion. Imperfection in our usage of terms is everything.
"out of a desire/need to glorify himself"
"Desire" is anthropomorphic and "need" is completely ridiculous.
God's creation SHOULD logically glorify Him based on cosmic principle and it has nothing to do with God "needing" anything.
"by rewarding in heaven the few human beings who just got lucky"
This fails to address God's infinite quality of Self-Sacrificing Love for them as well as His election of them which was NOT whimsical. There is NO such thing as "luck" in God's universe - only the perception of it.
"to believe by being born at the right time and place,"
by God's Mercy, Grace and Infinite Decree as well as gift of spiritual regeneration so that they CAN finally see (to choose correctly).
"and who will condemn to hell those who do not believe."
For a logical set of reasons which are multi-faceted and can not be isolated from connected premises.
God's judgement will be PERFECT and you will know this.
**Please note that the above statements are imperfect in an imperfect language and need to be clarified.***
Concision is impossible when striving for precision.
Breckmin.
Prove that THERE IS A PERFECTLY GOOD GOD!
If you cant do this then dont bother asserting your points because your just full of s#@&%!
Unless you address God's omniscience and how "starting with heaven" where His children have no knowledge of good and evil and are an eternal danger to them..as well as how they will have NO knowledge of God's eternal protection or how much God loves them (self-sacrificing love)is clearly going to be problematic because there will not have existed the experience of "contrast" nor salvation from choices, etc....
until you begin to address some of these basic concepts this temporary creation that is dealing with the real problem of evil (making disobedient choices either deliberately or out of ignorance) will not make sense to you.
"Prove that THERE IS A PERFECTLY GOOD GOD!"
By what moral standard do you appeal to - to claim that the Creator and Owner of the universe is anything BUT Good or sets the standard for Good in His Own universe?
If you believe "good" exists above the Owner and Creator and Sustainer of the universe then your concept of a Creator is too small and you expect too little from Him.
Breckmin writes: "By what moral standard do you appeal to - to claim that the Creator and Owner of the universe is anything BUT Good or sets the standard for Good in His Own universe?"
If the Bible were inspired by a malevolent demon, how would YOU know?
You've deferred all judgment to this Higher Being who you insist must inform you of everything that's good and bad.
So if the Bible said it's "good" to torture infants, rape virgins and maim the elderly, you'd say "Well, it doesn't feel right, but God says it's 'good', so I guess I'm going out today to hack off a few limbs and rape some virgins"?
(Oh wait ... I think the Bible does say those things ...)
The earliest god ( El, Elohim, Yahweh) who struggles with the dragon and the sea in the primordial creation myths of the Hebrew Bible IS NOT the same God of the Christian apologists.
The earlier God, such as the one in the later creation accounts of Genesis 1 and 2, is a god with limited abilities, who lacks total knowledge, who fears what he created, who creates a talking serpent smarted then he is, who is really an embarrassment to modern twenty-first century apologetics which must live with this albatross around their theological necks. This god is only important (not so much for creation) but for Original Sin which embedded in Paul’s theology and be defended!
PS: Hey Breckmin, are you not going to respond to my reply comments to your theological apologetic assertion that God can not lie and that Satan is bad on John’s May 10 Post “God’s Wonderful World”?
"If the Bible were inspired by a malevolent demon, how would YOU know?"
FTR, this question is incongruous to "a standard of moral perfection to judge the Infinite Existence Who sets all perfection."
Your question is about a canon of various writings "about" the Perfect and Holy Creator and whether or not it was "inspired" by this Creator. What we mean by "inspired" here would be a different subject.
"You've deferred all judgment to this Higher Being who you insist must inform you of everything that's good and bad."
No. I am saying that philosophically, once you understand Who God is as Owner and Sustainer and Creator of the universe then you will begin to understand that His Very Will sets the logical standard for what is Good in His universe. His nature and Will determine cosmic good - NOT our perception of what is taking place.
"So if the Bible said it's "good" to torture infants,"
No where does the bible say it is good to torture infants. The order of the killing of the enemies of Israel is for a specific purpose of preserving an Elect Nation. It has nothing to do with torturing babies. David's reference in the Psalms is to the completion of war where the children of your enemies will not rise up against you. It is VERY important to realize that what David records does NOT mean that the Creator agrees with the soldiers perspective.
Something recorded in the bible does NOT mean that God condones it.
"rape virgins and maim the elderly,"
No where does the Tanakh say it is somehow "good" to do this.
"you'd say "Well, it doesn't feel right, but God says it's 'good', so I guess I'm going out today to hack off a few limbs and rape some virgins"?"
Your reductio ad absurdum fails to address the reality of why Christians are opposed to these things and how they are being obedient to God.
The recording of something in the O.T. does not mean that God condones it.
Breckmin.
I think Rob Zechman already put it well.
If you are going to claim something as a fact then there is oviously a burden of proof that comes with it.
If you are going to automatically just say "were does good come from" then take a look at John's videos he's been posting, does there look like there is any real good in this universe?
Good can just as easily be our own human concept of right and wrong.
If God is the definition of good, then why do people like us question Gods suppossed actions in the bible?
Why do we feel disgusted with the atrocities in the OT and the concept of hell in the NT?
Why do you suppose John posts these wonderful world videos?
"PS: Hey Breckmin, are you not going to respond to my reply comments to your theological apologetic assertion that God can not lie and that Satan is bad on John’s May 10 Post “God’s Wonderful World”?"
Will it change your mind, Harry?
Comparing the Infinite Creator to a finite created being who's intentions are to deceive you as well as failing to address the imperfect Hebrew perspective and its narrative will only lead you to deception.
Until you address the perspective from which things are written you will never identify a correct systematic theology. (or a biblical theology that employs 'scriptura scripturum interpretor')
Breckmin.
You said "recordings of some things in the OT does not mean God condoned it"?
So what about the expressed commands that come straight from God Himself?
Dont you realize most of the atrocities in the OT come from Gods own command????
"If God is the definition of good, then why do people like us question Gods suppossed actions in the bible?"
An angel of the Lord came in the middle of the night and killed a whole army. We don't know for certain if it was an elect holy angel (which we as Christians do believe) or if it was a fallen angel who volunteered for the job. There is so much that we do NOT know regarding what is going on behind the scenes spiritually. Ultimately, God is "in control" and He was the One Who brought salvation to Israel.
God determines everybody's death through an infinite set of circumstances, so talking about babies drowning in the flood is quite ridiculous (since every infant who dies today does so under God's control through various causes and effects).
Everyone questions how we perceive God's actions in the O.T. It is good to question. But when you question, try to look for the philosophically consistent answer rather than one which can somehow claim "God makes mistakes" (which is complete and utter foolishness).
What is recorded doesn't mean that God condoned all of it. This applies to divorce as it does slavery. There are reasons why God's people are against slavery as well as killing children and rape, etc. and we can go through them.
You need to have a practical and realistic interpretation of the record of the O.T.
Breckmin.
We are looking for a philosogically consistent answer to the POE and the three O's of God!
Also, we are asking obvious questions based on observation and rationality, you on other hand, are giving us answers that are based on your own presuppositions which you have no substantial backing for!
I dont think most people question petty things in the OT like divorce.
Its mostly the killing of women and innocent children, the genocides of nations, and Gods way of displaying His power!
And dont say God did not have anything to do with slavery, that is false!!!!
"So what about the expressed commands that come straight from God Himself?
Dont you realize most of the atrocities in the OT come from Gods own command????"
It is utter foolishness to believe that God somehow condones human sacrifice for instance. The ONLY Sacrifice that is acceptable was God becoming a Man and sacrificing Himself (giving of Himself or of His Own Life as The Perfect Son of God). All other sacrifices are easily explained with a proper hermeneutic.
God's judgement of the enemies of Israel are NOT atrocities. Do you think Armageddon will be an atrocity or a judgement forever in heaven? It is all about perspective - and cosmically it is about an eternal perspective.
No where does God condone rape. "Do with them what you wish" was still within the requirement of following the Law. They had to marry them. From your perspective, you will claim that they raped them after they married them..but what you fail to realize is that these virgins were actually "saved" from being slaughtered. They were given "grace" to still be alive and be married (where they could learn about the God of Abraham) instead of being killed and sent into eternity with all of their violations against this Holy Creator and all of their ignorance about Him.
We can go through each case individually in the O.T. and see which ones were from God and which ones were out of a sinful human hearts. Until you distinguish between God's Holy Judgment and the equivocation we have with the English word atrocity you are not going to see what God was doing with the Nation of Israel and what it models.
Breckmin Stated: Will it change your mind, Harry?
RE: Biblical facts will and I quoted you plenty!
Just where and how do you construct your prefect God? It sure is NOT form the Bible!
If you based any of you assertion about your perfect God on the Bible, then answer my Biblical facts that prove God is not your perfect darling deity.
Apparently, you get your salvation from the Bible and you love to condemn humanity from the Bible (Fallen / Original Sin), but when the Bible proves God has warts in his morals and ethics, you don’t need the Bible any longer, but now jump the Biblical ship and use Neo-Platonism to formulate a perfect ideal God.
As I sated yesterday: In light of God lying, murdering, and using genocide when he has a temper fit, Satan is by far the lesser evil, if he is evil at all!
"And dont say God did not have anything to do with slavery, that is false!!!!"
Neither would I say that "God didn't have anything to do with having more than one wife or divorce." God allowing something because of the dictates of the culture and the modus operandi of surrounding nations does NOT mean that this was optimal.
There is a reason why Christians are against slavery, divorce and polygamy.
"Its mostly the killing of women and innocent children, the genocides of nations, and Gods way of displaying His power!"
Everyone dies with an infinitely short lifespan in comparison to eternity. This is what you are not recognizing. Every child that dies of so called "natural causes" is not that much different than the child that dies during war. God is in control of everyone's lifespan and our heartbeats are numbered. This is a temporary creation. Salvation from the things we have done wrong is everything. There is no such thing as fairness or equal opportunity. This is because our choices affect each other.
When God pronounces judgement on a pagan nation - that is the end.
Cosmically speaking, God could pronounce such judgement against ALL of us because we are born "enemies" (imperfect English word, btw)of God as sons/daughters of disobedience.
IF you say "God made us that way" you are missing the choices that were made by ancestors that brought about such existence as well as the fact that God has JUDGED the human race with Perfection as well as the work of salvation which will be eternal (etc, etc).
You can NOT isolate on God giving a spiritual existence to physical body due to the choices of those who are created in His Image. You can not expect things that are impossible (such as choosing existence which requires learning before you can even choose).
As long as you isolate on specific existences which are connected to eternity you will never see the absolute perfection of God's Holy plan to redeem His children and show them His Love and teach them and reward them for all of eternity without the corruption (in heaven)that comes from working through the tough issues that would corrupt us - when the standard is logically Perfection for obedience. Salvation from the inevitable corruption (from potential choices) is NOT everything...but it IS one of many things (connected eternal premises) that is everything.
Question everything.
"We are looking for a philosogically consistent answer to the POE and the three O's of God!"
There are actually four:
omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence, and omnibenevolence.
The first and the last are imperfect in application and require clarification. God doesn't love demons nor satan...and there are something things that are self-contradictory that can not be done because of basic logic. It is utter foolishness to accuse the Infinite and Omniscient Creator of being impotent. Such application only displays that you would prefer an eternity of chaos rather than the coming order.
The reasons for suffering are several and apply individually to each person based on their circumstances. We can go through them, perhaps - if John allows.
There is NO problem in explaining the necessity of knowing not to commit an act of evil in heaven...or how corruption and redemption accomplishes the greater good. The real problem of evil is how choice without motive and knowledge is an eternal danger to God's children and needs to be dealt with with a temporary creaion.
breckmin
Do you have regular conference calls with god because you pedantically lecture us like you have privileged inside info.
"In light of God lying,"
A man in the O.T. claiming that God deceived him does NOT mean that God ever spoke a "lie" to him...this is what you don't understand. God allowing a person's interpretation of events to believe a lie is NOT the same thing as God "speaking" (clearly anthropomorphic) a lie.
"murdering,"
He is the Giver and Taker of all life...so in your assessment God would be guilty of murdering us all..BUT God sets the Law so "How can God be guilty of "unlawful killing?" The problem is that your concept of an Infinite Creator Who sustains all life and determines all lifespans is too small.
"and using genocide when he has a temper fit,"
Why would an omniscient Creator ever have a temper fit? Clearly your anthropomorphic interpretation of the holy scriptures fails to identify God's immutable character and what is "meant" by Righteous Indignation from a human perspective.
"Satan is by far the lesser evil, if he is evil at all!"
Yet he is the one who wants to destroy you and take you with him to eternal separation from God's glory. Where is his demonstration of love? and how can you compare his finite existence to God's Holy Infinite Existence.
non-sequitur
Breckmin.
It is foolishness to think a loving merciful creator would ever have commanded those things in the OT!
You said the virgins were actually spared from being slaughtered....yeppy!....what about the young male children that Moses commanded to destroy.
You said God allowed slavery out of the dictates of the people.
It was God who told the Israelites there were certian cities they were suppossed to utterly destroy. There were others that if they surrendered, God said they could be kept alive as slaves!
How were the people of Canaan enemies of God (as you say).
Use some logic, it was the Israelites that attacked Canaan under Gods command, and to take their land and wipe them out.
Anyway, it does not matter what I say.
People like you are so caught up in all your spiritual, otherworldy nonsense, every single one of you allow yourselves to be robed of your common sense, rationality, and COMPASSION for humanity!
breck
I just witnessed the birth of my son three hours ago and I have to say I am going to make it my life's mission to help him recognize your superstition as utter silliness dependent on fear, desire for power, and special pleading. Nothing you argue for helps people learn how to think or is useful to encouraging a sense of personal worth or liberty. Your ideas glorify the fearful illusions of pre-scientific primitives so you can claim a standard which only serves you to obtain power through obedience. You are a moral coward Breck and you lack intellect or imagination.
Question everything including your superstitious unfalsifiable delusions that keep you pretentious and useless.
LOL....well put Chuck!
The Bible / God is like an elderly senile citizen who is usually incoherent and out of touch with reality. However, because of the love of her children (the believers) who are driven on by the denial of reality along with some creative ingenuity (theology), she (the bible and God) are loving taken by the arm and apologetically helped to shuffle along.
Like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz, the curtain has been pulled back and we find Breckmin working feverishly at the controls of theology trying to keep his god functioning and up right.
But sadly, Breckmin, you apparently have better morals and ethics then the God you love and worship!
Part 1
Human Sacrifice in the Hebrew Bible
Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you. The Akedah Genesis 22:1-2
Now it came about at midnight that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle. The Passover Exodus 12:29
Jephthah made a vow to the LORD and said, “If You will indeed give the sons of Ammon into my hand, then it shall be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, it shall be the LORD’S, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering. ---- When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, behold, his daughter was coming out to meet him with tambourines and with dancing. Now she was his one and only child; besides her he had no son or daughter. Judges 11: 30 & 34
Of all the ancient Near Eastern texts which we have translated today, the Hebrew god Yahweh is the only deity that keeps a chosen race alive so he can lead them and slaughter them as his bi-polar mental state changes a from manic one of loving kindness (Hebrew: hesed) to one of depression and rage such a expressed in Numbers 11:1:
“Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of Yahweh; and when Yahweh heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of Yahweh burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp.”
This characterization of Yahweh is derived from the Hebrew etymology of the nose of a snorting and raging bull. Once Yahweh changes into this murderous deity, Moses attempt to reason with him and even offering himself to be consumed as an atonement for Israel’s sin:
“Now Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families, each man at the doorway of his tent; and the anger of Yahweh was kindled greatly, and Moses was displeased. …So if You are going to deal thus with me, please kill me at once, if I have found favor in Your sight, and do not let me see my wretchedness." (Numbers 11: 10 & 15).
Once angered, the rage of Israel’s god becomes so great that his consuming thirst for blood and death must be satisfied! Thus, in the Biblical text we find Yahweh raging like a bull with a flaming nose and demanding death:
“Yahweh said to Moses, ‘Take all the leaders of the people and execute them in broad daylight before the Yahweh, so that the fierce anger of the Yahweh may turn away from Israel.’" (Numbers 25: 4)
Part 2
Empirical Texts Telling of the Wars of Yahweh and the Slaughter of Men, Women and Children (as animals) to Satisfy Yahweh (God’s) Craving for Blood and Life
As we turn our attention to the Book of Joshua, sacrificial elements are brought together in the tale of the fall of Jericho where both the concepts of Holy War and Divine Warrior are incorporated with the ancient Near Eastern magical number seven:
“Also seven priests shall carry seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark; then on the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets. "It shall be that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city will fall down flat, and the people will go up every man straight ahead.” (Joshua 6: 4 - 5).
Now that the city wall destroyed, the sacrificial human slaughter of all the men, women, children, babies and the unborn (along with all their animals) can begin. Under the ancient concept of Holy War, Yahweh as the Warrior-King deity is leading the Israelite army, but he demands a price! God wants all the booty of the city. From the death of all living things as sacrifice to its gold, silver, bronze and iron. This is his portion called in Hebrew the “harem” or the BAN.
Part 3
“They utterly destroyed everything in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword…They burned the city with fire, and all that was in it. Only the silver and gold, and articles of bronze and iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD. (Joshua 6: 21 & 24) (12)
The cultic elements flow full and free in Joshua 6 - 7, but the victory is short lived due to hidden sin! Unknown to Joshua, Yahweh is denied his full booty! Not the precious lives of the non-combatants or all of the innocent women, children, babies, the unborn and animals, but Yahweh’s personal greed is for the material metal wealth of the city which is its gold, silver, bronze and iron that could be used in his own earthly house or tabernacle (see below).
Once the murder of all life in Jericho completed, everything is burnt to Yahweh so that he can enjoy the human sacrificial spoils of war. (Notice that the cultic proper killing of life of both humans and animal in Jericho means that their blood must be drained. Thus Joshua 6: 21 makes it a point to tell the Jewish reader of this epic that death was to be by “the edge of the sword” before any ritual or sacrificial burning could take place. (Joshua 6: 24 )
In order to seal the city to Yahweh forever, a divine curse is placed on anyone who tries to rebuild it:
“Then Joshua made them take an oath at that time, saying, "Cursed before the LORD is the man who rises up and builds this city Jericho; with the loss of his firstborn he shall lay its foundation, and with the loss of his youngest son he shall set up its gates." (Joshua 6:26).
(Here the curse is much like would fined in such major ancient Near Eastern Akkadian texts such as the epilogue to the Code of Hammurabi. Yahweh’s curse in verse 26 has now set the stage for the sacrificial slaughter of Achan and all that belongs to him.)
Part 4
The reason is now revealed to Joshua that “Israel has sinned” by taking Yahweh’s booty of Jericho’s precious metals:
"Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I commanded them. And they have even taken some of the things under the ban and have both stolen and deceived. Moreover, they have also put them among their own things.” (Joshua 7: 11) Thus, all of Israel must consecrate themselves to be made holy (as in a divine ritual for Holy Warriors and priests):
“It shall be that the one who is taken with the things under the ban (harem) shall be burned with fire, he and all that belongs to him, because he has transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he has committed a disgraceful thing in Israel.” (Joshua 7: 15).
Since Yahweh was cheated out of his material booty, slaughter must now sacrificially be fed to Yahweh to quench his hunger for human blood and life. Again, the sacrificial slaughter of all the men, women, children, babies along with the unborn in Achan’s clan are an atonement for the original booty of gold and silver, bronze and iron God (Yahweh) was denied. As such, Achan’s whole extended family is sacrificed by stoning (death caused by blunt force trauma associated with both external and internal bleeding) then, just like Jericho, the slaughtered families are feed to Yahweh by burning:
Part 5
“Joshua said, "Why have you troubled us? The LORD will trouble you this day." And all Israel stoned them with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them with stones.” (Joshua 7: 25)
To mark the spot as holy, an altar built of stones is set up to honor the Israelite warrior god king, Yahweh:
“They raised over him a great heap of stones that stands to this day, and the LORD turned from the fierceness of His anger. Therefore the name of that place has been called the valley of Achor to this day.” (Joshua 7: 26)
With Yahweh’s hunger for human blood and flesh satisfied, he again marches with the Israelites into Holy War; again against Ai. But, unlike before, this time Joshua cuts a deal with Yahweh to make up for their defeat the first time due to Achan’s hidden sin. The Israelites will get to keep all the “spoils and its cattle” (8: 2), but again, all the human life of 12,000 souls must be sacrificially killed and burnt to satisfy Yahweh:
“…then all Israel returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword. All who fell that day, both men and women, were 12,000-- all the people of Ai. For Joshua did not withdraw his hand with which he stretched out the javelin until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. … So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap forever, a desolation until this day.” (Joshua 8:24c - 26 and 28)
@Harry H.McCall,CET
Abraham doesn't sacrifice Isaac so there is no human sacrifice. The purpose of the journey was to demonstrate his faith and provide the foreshadowing of Messiah Who WOULD be someday sacrificed.
Jephthah's vow was seen as a mistake on his part. Orthodox Jews have always noted this and that human sacrifice is condemned. It is a lesson that you are not omniscient (only God is). The story symbolizes Christ and God giving His Virgin Son, but Jephthah was NOT God and didn't own his daughter.
"and when Yahweh heard it, His anger was kindled,"
Do you really think that this is anything but anthropocentric and anthropomorphic? God is omniscient and has always known what would take place. He doesn't need to "hear" anything as though He has ears to hear sound...or as though He somehow needs to learn of our behavior.
I wouldn't be surprised if when we get to heaven there will be a 'scientfic explanation' for that fire...the miracle may have been the incredible timing of the so called "natural" occurence. I believe it is this way with many different miracles and the is the beauty of God's Infinite Ordination.
"Yahweh said to Moses, ‘Take all the leaders of the people and execute them in broad daylight before the Yahweh, so that the fierce anger of the Yahweh may turn away from Israel.’" (Numbers 25: 4)"
God was 'purifying' (imperfect word) Israel. His judgement was upon those who would corrupt Israel. Our perception and thinking process is that God is angry with our sin because it is NOT optimal for us. It is much more than this. Clearly, we say in the English language "God hates sin." For the Christian, this is an accurate statement because we know that our sin is a violation/transgression against what is optimal/Perfect and therefore a violation God's Nature which knows that cosmically - obedience is always optimal, always right, always best for us.
When God chastises Israel and individual members get the axe (they are judged by the Owner of the universe) we call this "anger" from our human perception. God is NOT surprised by anything we do so His "emotional state" (anthropomorphic) is clearly different from a finite being's who is constantly changing.
This is very important to understand when interpreting the holy scriptures.
"Women and Children (as animals) to Satisfy Yahweh (God’s) Craving for Blood and Life."
Craving is a human desire and completely ridiculous to apply to a Holy Transcendent Infinite Atemporal Creator. Jericho foreshadow's Armageddon and the seven trumpets in the Book of Revelation. Everyone dies...and when they do "then comes judgement." Hebrews 9:27. Executing them out in the open is for a deterrent to the rest of the nation. His quote unquote "anger" against them is His "judgement" against them/chastisement (as a nation) being lessoned because of their finally corrected obedience.
Can something be good but not perfect because it is corruptible in its beginning? I'm not asserting a process theology...I am proposing a necessity of growth toward perfection. Here we will have equivocation on the English word perfection because clearly perfection will include inevitable corruption... if the end result was going to be a perfect finale.
(judgement which included punishment and grace). The point is - in order to have perfection you have to be able to contrast it with imperfection. In order to have salvation you have to contrast it with not being saved from something real. In order to have obedience you have to contrast it with disobedience. In order to have pleasure you have to contrast it with pain and suffering. In order to have success you have to contrast it with failure. In order to have grace/mercy - no mercy needs to be observed. The list goes on and on. In order to have Love we must contrast it with indifference or hate. Does God really "hate" like a finite being would hate (like satan hates?).
The need for a temporary creation to teach us these contrasts and show us God's Love while we work through the tough issues of "learning" and compliance is very important. Clearly we could say that this is NOT a perfect temporary creation because of all of the corruption we see....BUT will the believer feel this way in heaven? Or will they see that this temporary creation was exactly what it needed to be to deal with how the inevitable potential byproduct of choice without knowledge/motive in order to have a perfect obedience/love/fellowship/logical worship in heaven?
One thing will always be for certain... there is no such thing as equal opportunity in a universe with absolute choices that affect one another.
I hope I have made you think a second time.
Congratulations to you Chuck, on the birth of your son.
I'd pass you a blue cigar and wish you the best, always.
Breckmin said,
"...The order of the killing of the enemies of Israel is for a specific purpose of preserving an Elect Nation."
So god plays favorites, or is he just a jealous gopd who can't abide sharing heaven with the likes of Baal?
You're a flippin' idiot.
Breckmin said,
"...There are actually four:
omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence, and omnibenevolence.
The first and the last are imperfect in application and require clarification. God doesn't love demons nor satan...and there are something things that are self-contradictory that can not be done because of basic logic. It is utter foolishness to accuse the Infinite and Omniscient Creator of being impotent. Such application only displays that you would prefer an eternity of chaos rather than the coming order."
important part!:
"...and there are something [sic] things that are self-contradictory that can not be done because of basic logic."
You have just limited god and declared that he's subject to logic.
Your words, not mine...
"It is utter foolishness to accuse the Infinite and Omniscient Creator of being impotent..."
Question:
Can Omniscient God
Who knows the furture find
The Omnipotence to
Cahnge His future mind?
He's bound in a contradiction.
Breckmin said,
"Abraham doesn't sacrifice Isaac so there is no human sacrifice. The purpose of the journey was to demonstrate his faith and provide the foreshadowing of Messiah Who WOULD be someday sacrificed."
If you buy into the idea that Jesus is/was God Incarnate, then
HOW IN THE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS DOES GOD SACRIFICING HIMSELF TO HIMSELF SOLVE ANYTHING???
And...
"Our perception and thinking process is that God is angry with our sin because it is NOT optimal for us. It is much more than this. Clearly, we say in the English language "God hates sin." For the Christian, this is an accurate statement because we know that our sin is a violation/transgression against what is optimal/Perfect and therefore a violation God's Nature which knows that cosmically - obedience is always optimal, always right, always best for us."
God's grace, in your conception is a slave's collar and chain. How is this equivalent to "love"?
I should qualify this further...
"HOW IN THE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS DOES GOD SACRIFICING HIMSELF TO HIMSELF SOLVE ANYTHING???"
should read:
HOW IN THE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS DOES GOD SACRIFICING HIMSELF TO HIMSELF TO SOLVE A PROBLEM HE HIMSELF IMPOSED UPON HUMANITY SOLVE ANYTHING???
Without the fall of man, the Bible would have been a very short book, indeed.
Reply 1 (God as a Liar)
Breckmin Stated: A man in the O.T. claiming that God deceived him does NOT mean that God ever spoke a "lie" to him...this is what you don't understand. God allowing a person's interpretation of events to believe a lie is NOT the same thing as God "speaking" (clearly anthropomorphic) a lie.
Your “A man in the O.T. claiming that God deceived…” is none other than the major prophet Jeremiah!
This whole issue of God lying was drawn from an article by Princeton Professor J.J.M. Roberts: Does God Lie? Divine Deceit as a Theological problem in Israelite Prophetic Literature in Supplements to Vetus Testamentum, Congress Volume: Jerusalem, 1986, edited by J.A. Emerton (EJ Brill, 1988) pp. 211 - 220.
So Breckmin, just why would you trust Paul (who never claims to have talked to God (nor ever met the earthly Jesus))and not Jeremaih, yet you depend on his letters big time for his Theology of the Cross in order to formulate a soteriology for Christianity?
I noticed you completely skipped over the Prophet Micaiah’s vision in 1 Kings where God demands and then protects a “lying spirit” in his divine council to go forth and trick Ahab. When you don’t have an explanation to vindicate God, you ignore Biblical facts!
Yet even the New Testament gives us a God who is the father of lies: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 Thus, God lies to be certain people are damned.
Finally, please quote me chapter and verse where Satan ever lied or killed somebody: Please? (If you want to try Job 1 - 2, be my guest.)
Reply 2 (God Accepts Human Sacrifice)
Breckmin: Abraham doesn't sacrifice Isaac so there is no human sacrifice. The purpose of the journey was to demonstrate his faith and provide the foreshadowing of Messiah Who WOULD be someday sacrificed.
RE: The fact that Abraham would have ever bound Isaac (The Akedah) was proof that Yahweh was a God of human sacrifice and Abraham accepted this fact or he would have protested the act!
As Francesca Stavrakopoulou notes in her 2002 doctoral dissertation at Oxford University:
The blessing of descendants is brought about only because Abraham is willing to sacrifice the son destined to beget them: Abraham is not commanded to sacrifice the ram, but he is commanded to sacrifice his son; Abraham does not receive YHWH’s blessing of descendants because he slays the animal, rather, he is blessed precisely because he is willing to sacrifice Isaac to YHWH. King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice: Biblical Distortions of Historical Realities (Walter de Gruyter, 2002) p 193.
I noticed you avoid the murderous God of the Passover since the facts of the story about the first born sacrificed / killed are very clear hear.
Breckmin: Jephthah's vow was seen as a mistake on his part. Orthodox Jews have always noted this and that human sacrifice is condemned. It is a lesson that you are not omniscient (only God is). The story symbolizes Christ and God giving His Virgin Son, but Jephthah was NOT God and didn't own his daughter.
RE: Jephthah did not have the option to opt out. He did not say: Hey wait! Since God does not accept human sacrifice, I can, (like Abraham) substitute an animal here!
But like Joshua at Jericho, he knew only human sacrifice could appease God and his daughter fully accepted this vow and by this acceptance, reinforced her father’s view of God demanding human sacrifice.
As Francesca Stavrakopoulou comments here: Given that Jephthah and Abraham are consistently depicted as heroic figures faithful to YHWH, it is highly significant that in neither story is the practice of child sacrifice condemned, nor even remarked upon, by the narrator. Rather, it is the function of the sacrifice that appears to receive the narrator’s attention. Both the Aqedah and the story of Jephthah’s daughter present the sacrifice of a child to YHWH as an action bringing divine blessing. King Manasseh and Child Sacrificep 195.
Finally, just how in the universe can you deny that God never wanted nor accepted human sacrifice only to turn right around and contradict yourself 180 degrees by saying Jesus was a perfect human sacrifice now accepted by God to forgive all humanity of their sins!
Thus, according to you, Breckmin, God hates human sacrifice in the Old Testament, but must have it in the New Testament or he will burn humanity eternally in Hell because there is no forgiveness for sin!
Please! It’s time for a reality check!
Reply 3 (Breckmin and the Bible)
Breckmin: Do you really think that this is anything but anthropocentric and anthropomorphic? God is omniscient and has always known what would take place. He doesn't need to "hear" anything as though He has ears to hear sound...or as though He somehow needs to learn of our behavior.
RE: I would expect such an allegorical explanation from Philo of Alexandria, the Gnostics or the Christian Origen, but not from any main line Christian today!
You seem to hate Process Theology and claim it’s all wrong, and yet you approach the Bible much like a Process Theologian.
One thing is for sure. You are highly inconsistent and contradictory in your use of the Biblical text!
"So god plays favorites,"
Elect angels often called Holy angels have a different relationship with those who have been judged already. This does NOT mean I believe in the clearly imperfect and over-simplified and debated "Limited Atonement" point of Calvinism.
Calvism over-simplifies (just as you are over simplifying all of these alleged/apparent contradictions because of inexactisms, hyper-techincalities, minor error in the details and imperfection of terminology).
There is no contradiction when you understand what is being ineffectively communicated due to human language...and what the Perfect Holy Spirit of God convicts of...and how God's Spirit convicts of the specific truth(s) of scripture.
We can easily go through each of these and explain the differences. Abraham's command from God verses Jephthah's coming up with his own vow, etc.
"it is highly significant that in neither story is the practice of child sacrifice condemned,"
It was expected in biblical times that we would actually use "common sense" to know that human sacrifice was an abomination against God. God becoming a Man and giving of His Own Life is not to be compared to sacrificing a sinner.
It is also expected that we would use logic and common sense when interpreting the writings of prophets to know what they are referring to when they were speaking/writing imperfectly (with inexactism, minor errors, anthropomorphic descriptions, etc).
The Christian faith is in no danger of being debunked by ridiculous accusations of contradictions because of practical interpretation and the understanding of Sitz im Leben.
"You have just limited god and declared that he's subject to logic."
Logic is actually infinite when you begin to realize it...just like mathematics.
God's order is consistent with Infinite Mathematics just as He is a Logical God and Creator (imperfect statement,btw, which will need to be clarified since it its current phrase actually defames God).
Because God is a Logical God - it is NOT that He is somehow "bound" by Logic...but rather that Logic is an order like a language that flows from Him. (still imperfect statement - but I can't write a book here to explain).
Nonsense is nonsense, even when you apply it to God...that is why your "Can Omniscient God
Who knows the furture find
The Omnipotence to
Cahnge His future mind?" question is still more of an appeal to non-sequitur logic. You are trying to pivot God's own omniscience against His Logical Infinite Power and claim that He is not "powerful enough" to change His "mind" (an English word which is clearly anthropomorphic).
First of all, God has no "future mind." That would mean it was impossible for Him to be omniscient. Second, saying that God can't destroy Himself or that God can't make Himself infinitely weak..etc. doesn't mean that God is not logically Infinitely Powerful. It just means that you can't take self contradictory nonsense and apply it to a Perfect and Holy Creator Who is a Creator of Order. (Infinite Order).
Saying God can't violate His Own Nature and Character and therefore He is not omnipotent is just as foolish as pivoting God's creative power against His power to move an object.
Nonsense is nonsense...even when you try and apply it to God.
"HOW IN THE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS DOES GOD SACRIFICING HIMSELF TO HIMSELF SOLVE ANYTHING???"
should read:
HOW IN THE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS DOES GOD SACRIFICING HIMSELF TO HIMSELF TO SOLVE A PROBLEM HE HIMSELF IMPOSED UPON HUMANITY SOLVE ANYTHING???"
Presentation is everything... and when you present things incorrectly they no longer make sense.
This is NOT just God Sacrificing Himself to Himself. This is God becoming a "Man" and Giving of His Innocent Life (that He became) to PAY for the sins of those who could NOT pay for them (because they were corrupted and imperfect and could never reach perfection without perfection in their place).
God "imposed" a just punishment on humankind...but clearly this sentence is imperfect starting with the English word "imposed."
The problem is that you are failing to deal with the inevitable.
You are failing to deal with how choice is a danger to all of us (without knowledge that needs to be learned and motive that needs to be obtained - and - there is more). Heaven will be quite different from this temporary creation because we will have learned and observed (and been spiritually regenerated to be God's Holy Children in heaven).
Salvation belongs to God and there is no Savior except Him (Isaiah 43). Yes, God became a Man and gave up His Life and was whipped and beated at the hands of Roman Soldiers. The Infinite Creator of the universe did not need to do this for us - but saw the greater glory of Love and endured for us as a Servant. He Who would be King will have served all of us. We will be eternally LOYAL to Jesus Christ of Nazareth...
because He "gave up" His Life. Over simplfiying and isolating on this English word "sacrifice" fails to identify God's part in "giving."
"You seem to hate Process Theology and claim it’s all wrong, and yet you approach the Bible much like a Process Theologian."
God is All Logically Powerful. I don't have a problem with a proper understanding of all powerful and omnipotence that does not encompass self-contradiction or is in and of itself "illogical."
You can't pivot God's omnipotence against His creative power or against His Order or Logic that flows from Him. Process theology fails to deal with God's omni-logical-potence correctly.
Also, panentheism is in gross error (possibly due to over defining alleged relationships between God and the universe).
God's atemporal existence would transcend all worlds..the idea God being infinitely spatial is a completely different concept than theocosmocentrism which focuses on the universe's relationship to God.
There is just too much error in process theology to compare it to what I know to be true. Some of the concepts may sound similar - but they are infinitely far apart when dissected and explained properly.
God's children being in process and God creating a temporary creation does NOT mean that God is somehow changing or in process.
God does not "need" anything. This is important to understand.
Breckmin,
Your mental contortionisms are more and more desperate with each post.
Example:
You say,
"God "imposed" a just punishment on humankind...but clearly this sentence is imperfect starting with the English word "imposed.""
This is an appeal to the imperfection of language, agreed.
But the flip side of that coin is that the Bible is composed of
dare I say it?
IMPERFECT LANGUAGE!
Yet every claim made in support of God that comes from and is composed of more of this "imperfect language" is literally ALWAYS held up by the bible-thumpers as being utterly authoritative (with the support of apologetics, of course).
Question your certainty, Breckmin!
And furthermore, you as much as admitted that God is indeed BOUND by logic.
"God's order is consistent with Infinite Mathematics just as He is a Logical God and Creator (imperfect statement,btw, which will need to be clarified since it its current phrase actually defames God)."
Contort on, amigo...
"Salvation belongs to God and there is no Savior except Him (Isaiah 43). "
Salvation presumes that there is indeed something standing in need of being saved.
Like I said at the top of Reality Check 5, humanity had no real choice in the story of the fall, and without the fall there isn't a need for Jesus to redeem us.
But my real objection to the concept of salvation is that I truly believe that all of the claims of religion are utterly false, including the existence of God, Satan, Heaven, Hell, immortal souls, angels, etc...
The only reason I refer to the Bible and Christian concepts is to deconstruct them.
Yet every claim made in support of God that comes from and is composed of more of this "imperfect language"
------------------------------
This is a historical position and is far more reasonable to defend.
The "concepts" themselves are independent of the mediums (languages of the flesh)they are translated into. Clearly the last sentence fails with "independent of" since these mediums communicate and contain the message.
It is the logic of the message, however, that accompanies each (attempted) dynamically equivalent translation.
We are all "learning." The languages we have developed do not always have the ability to perfectly communicate atemporal concepts and the things of God.
The words we use facilitate the contradictions - then we over-analyze.
Let's look at an example:
1. God has no enemies.
2. The children of disobedience and satan and all of his demons are enemies of God.
Someone will say "God can't have enemies (2) and also "no enemies"(1) at the same time. This violates the law of contradiction...
What we have here is equivocation on the word "enemy" and we *can* clarify what we are referring to.
1. God owns all existence in the universe and has no enemies which can stand against Him. He is infinitely above all powers and existences and therefore as no equal that could stand against Him as a legitimate opposing enemy.
2. Those who are enemies of God's children are enemies of God. Those whom God will someday eternally disown are His enemies, etc (more explanation could easily be given).
The fact is this type of thing happens a hundred times in the scriptures. That is why the animated cartoon or Quiz on biblical contractions is so meaningless.
Proverbs 26: 4,5 is another example and it could have been on that bible quiz video. Question: "You should answer a fool" Answer Yes/No - Both are true. But if you were to employ such ridiculous hyper technicality to Solomon - he would have looked at you like you lack an incredible amount of practical wisdom. It is clearly situational.
Everything in that quiz on biblical contradictions can be easily explained. Claiming contradictions in the details is easy...seeking to understand instead of looking for contradictions is eternally priceless.
Question everything. But when you question, seek to understand instead of handicapping yourself with unpractical hyper technicality.
Breckmin said,
"(Me, quoted):"So god plays favorites,"
Elect angels often called Holy angels have a different relationship with those who have been judged already. This does NOT mean I believe in the clearly imperfect and over-simplified and debated "Limited Atonement" point of Calvinism.
Calvinism over-simplifies (just as you are over simplifying all of these alleged/apparent contradictions because of inexactisms, hyper-techincalities, minor error in the details and imperfection of terminology)."
WTF??
When I said God plays favorites, I was referring to His selection of the ancient Hebrews to be the "Chosen People".
Here's a tip:
Every religion that has a holy book written by a segment of the population claims that their tribe is the "Chosen People".
The only special thing about this story is that it survives (but not without modification and embellishment) today.
Seems you're counting on "imperfect language" to obfuscate and sidestep points you don't want to address.
Every religion that has a holy book written by a segment of the population claims that their tribe is the "Chosen People".
And only one of these religions has a God of grace Who Himself provides salvation by sacrificing Himself, and this just happens to be the one religion where they sing praise songs to Jesus throughout the world instead of lame dirges or meaningless chants and monotones or dry songs from memory. Christians use music the way it is supposed to be used...throughout the world...and you are not to "seeing" this.
"Seems you're counting on "imperfect language" to obfuscate"
Name one thing I have obfuscated
"and sidestep points you don't want to address."
I want to address every point. There is nothing to run from. The truth itself is far too powerful not to address everything.
Let's start with "I was referring to His selection of the ancient Hebrews to be the "Chosen People"."
Yes. The Infinite Creator of the universe chose Israel because of Abraham's faith for a specific purpose. Israel is absolutely God's chosen nation here on earth with a specific plan. By what observation of fairness and equal opportunity in this universe are you going to appeal to? to somehow claim that God can't choose Israel? Please be specific.
If you say "all others claim to be chosen" - this is evasive to "by what observation of fairness you appeal to" as well as evasive to the fact that "just because others are wrong" doesn't mean that Israel is. Question everything.
Some Major Reasons to Reject Jesus as a Sacrifice:
A. The Roman method of crucifixion, which included the beating Jesus received before he was nailed to the cross was done by non-consecrated pagan gentile men who were not set apart as holy in God’s sight. Plus the fact that Jesus’ beating and crucifixion generally not any different from the thousands of other rebels and criminals the Romans made examples out of.
B. There is no recorded sacrificial animal in the Hebrew Bible that was ever tortured or made to suffer as an atonement to God. The animal was ritualistically sacrificed with a knife, and bled to death quickly. Afterwards, its whole body was brunt (or only its fat and organs burnt) with the sweet smell in the form of smoke of the burning flesh rising up to God.
By contrast, Jesus was purposely made to suffer under pagan gentile Roman law (not under God’s law as found in Leviticus 1-18). Jesus was neither quickly killed by proper bleeding, nor was his body burnt as recorded in the Gospels.
By contrast, even the innocent women, children and babies who were slain with the sword at Jericho and Ai died quickly and then their bodies were burnt so Yahweh could enjoy the sweet aroma of cooking flesh.
Counter to this fact, Jesus’ death failed to qualify as a consecrated sacrifice under any of the Priestly laws of the Hebrew Bible. Again, Jesus’ body was not burnt as a human sacrifice as set by the examples in the in the Hebrew Bible (the Book of Joshua), and thus Yahweh (God ) could not feast upon the smell of its smoke.
C. No sacrificial animal, be it human or beast, could still be alive (that is resurrected) after the act of sacrifice was completed and still be a true offering to God. Its life (as carried in its blood) was drained and the victim was sealed in death to God forever in the heavens by the rising smoke from the burning sacrificial flesh.
F. No one single one time offering ever atoned once for every sin of the Jewish people, much less all those of the entire future gentile world (contra Paul’s theology in Romans).
Plus the fact that Jesus is said to be sinless is only a relevant truth: To the educated religious Jews, he was a Godless blasphemer. To the Christians, he was the perfect sinless lamb of God.
G. There are also two other major factors that would reject the death of Jesus as a sacrifice:
1. Jesus’ blood was shed away from the Temple’s altar on non-consecrated ground.
2. The theology of the late Priestly school that compiled the Levitical Law and controlled the Torah would have never allowed, nor accepted a human sacrifice.
Plus another problem for the early Christians who were seeking to validate the life of Jesus with proof texts from the LXX (and Hebrew Bible) was the fact that the Jewish scriptures (Deut. 21:22 - 23) condemns a person who is hung on a tree as a sinner rejected by God. This problem gives us an insight into just how Paul’s hermeneutics (Gal. 3: 13) reworked the plain meaning of this text when dealing with Jesus.
Finally, the problem of Jesus bleeding to death as he was crucified between two criminals (who were also executed in the same exact same manner) caused a major theological problem. To counter this, medieval artists painted the two other criminals as being simply tied to their crosses (in contrast to Jesus who was the only one the artist depicted as nailed to his cross). This church art work was often commissioned to leave no doubt that it was and could only have been Jesus who shed his blood as a sacrificial atonement for the sin of the world.
"I want to address every point. There is nothing to run from. The truth itself is far too powerful not to address everything."
Take away the Bible and the adjunct arguments known collectively as 'apologetics' and there's not a damn thing in existence that points to any of the Christian religion being in any stretch of the imagination TRUTH.
Question the Bible!
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