I'm Editing Another Book
There are a few unnamed Christian wannabe apologists out there who viciously attacked me when I first came online before starting this Blog. I was repeatedly told I was stupid, ignorant, and even brain-dead in so many ways it took me by surprise. I was lied about and verbally maligned with everything I said. The treatment I received from them was absolutely appalling. In fact, they still do that to me. But all I just wanted to do originally was to reasonably discuss the issues that separate us. I did not set out to debunk Christianity. I merely wanted to find a place to discuss the issues in a respectful atmosphere. Had they done this I'm almost certain I would not have started this Blog and I would not have become so passionate about debunking the very faith they use to justify their treatment of me. If you want to motivate me call me stupid. I told them that doing so was like pouring gas on the fires of my passion but they laughed some more. Even now they still laugh. I dare say that they would've lit the fires that burned me at the stake in a previous generation. So I got to thinking about the people who died so that I have the freedom to speak out, and I dedicated my life to making sure I did not trample on their blood by not doing so. I also realized that since I had the means to effectively argue against the Christian faith I could not simply walk away from what I've learned without also sharing it with others who can benefit from it. So there is no turning back.
I'm not done yet. I'm editing another book.
While I'm just now in the beginning stages of this project and even though some things might change, several authors have agreed to write chapters for it, for which I am honored and excited, including: Richard Carrier, David Eller, Taner Edis, Ken Pulliam, Keith Parsons, Matt McCormick, Valerie Tarico, Jim Linville, and still others. It'll be good, I promise.
I'm not done yet. I'm editing another book.
While I'm just now in the beginning stages of this project and even though some things might change, several authors have agreed to write chapters for it, for which I am honored and excited, including: Richard Carrier, David Eller, Taner Edis, Ken Pulliam, Keith Parsons, Matt McCormick, Valerie Tarico, Jim Linville, and still others. It'll be good, I promise.
26 comments:
I'm glad I'm not the only one out there feeling personally attacked by Christians. Currently, I am greatly struggling with Christians on my blog who are demeaning and arrogant. I refuse to respond in an antagonistic way, but I'm just about done engaging with them because of their dogmatic and arrogant demeanor. While I can grant that no one is perfect, however, one would think that if they truly had Christ in their hearts, that they would at least treat those who disagree with love and respect.
I know challenging core beliefs often cause much apprehension, which can give away to closed-minded defensiveness. Since many solid reasons remain for disbelieving Christianity, believers scramble for their various interpretive tricks to avoid this truth.
Hi ET,
one would think that if they truly had Christ in their hearts, that they would at least treat those who disagree with love and respect.
I know how you feel, but I use that "indwelling" crap and "peace that passes" understanding non-sense against them and it seems pretty effective in shutting them down. Ask them "is that what jesus would say?"
or "can you rephrase that like Jesus might say it?"
You guys are just soft.
Love ya tho, feeno
John, as you know, Christians - a small and vocal subculture int heir midst notwithstanding - agree with your assessment of the kind of behaviour you're talking about. I certainly do.
You'll also know that who treats who in an appalling way depends very much on which side of the fence you're on. Most atheists won't be anywhere near as familiar with the awful online behaviour of other vocal atheists as, say, a Christian will be, just because atheists vocal atheists aren't motivated to attack the atheist view of their peers. But - given your frequent references to places like Theologyweb and tekton - I know that you've seen your fair share of vitriol substituted for arguments that spews from the angry keyboards of your fellow unbelievers.
The phenomenon is so common among combatants in online forums that it would be obviously pointless and misleading for me to say "I'm glad I'm not the only one out there feeling personally attacked by atheists." I'd be amazed if I was! (I'd also be amazed if anyone here really did think that she was the only one being attacked by Christians.)
The lesson to be learned on both sides of the fence is that you never know who you might piss off. They pissed off the wrong guy.
We should be thankful for the time in which we live...
"Heresy is a sin which merits not only excommunication but also death, for it is worse to corrupt the faith which is the life of the soul than to issue counterfeit coins which minister to the secular life. Since counterfeiters are justly killed by princes as enemies to the common good, so heretics also deserve the same punishment." - Thomas Aquinas
Hello Dan
I guess, too bad Christians aren't afforded the same luxuries. Today in 2009 we have Christians being killed for their faith around our globe. India, China, Pakistan, Nigeria, Iraq etc. I think we can handle a little "name calling"?
Peace out, feeno
Feeno,
How does that affect you?
All types of religious adherents are being killed all over the place.
Try telling people you're an athiest sometime, just for kicks. People don't know what to think about you, and they think twice before trusting you. You won't be like them......
you enjoy a level of societal comfort that we don't.
T.Z.
Yeah, your right. But I wanted to say something different then just say, UH, I agree with Glenn.
I'm out the door, on my way to Circleville OH. for my annual "Pumkin Show" trip. Check in with all you poor saps when I get back.
Dueces, feeno
freeno... I don't believe anyone here is justifying the killing of Christians. I know Christians love the martyr card, Tertullian is famous for saying that, “the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.”
I myself loved this card when I was "attacked" while preaching the "truth" (in love of course) that people were going to burn in Hell.
So sure, I guess being called names is better than being burned at the stake... but it doesn't make it right.
Feeno you said.."Today in 2009 we have Christians being killed for their faith around our globe. India, China, Pakistan, Nigeria, Iraq etc. I think we can handle a little "name calling"?"
You had also said.."You guys are just soft. Love ya tho, feeno"
So does this mean Christians just love folks who are just to soft to be loved ...That they dislike being loved so much they simply start to feel a need to kill the simple Christian lovers
Sounds good...Sounds like a wonderful sermon.
Is it just me? ...Or do others feel sermons quite often seem to lack a bit in some real honest truth of matters.
Sure i understand there is people like murderers who do kill for absolutely no reason.
But its strange to me sometimes that a certain special group is seeming to get targeted quite a bit more than others.
And hell i even happen to notice myself how as soon as folks say stuff against the christian belief they get all pissed off about it.Why in the eyes of some christians it seems its even shocking and horribly terrible if somebody celebrates even a little if somebody happens to come out of the closet and finally openly declare their disbelief.
Im wondering how long will christians continue play the violin when ever feeling their long held domination of rights to beliefs and celebrations are feeling a little threatened with regards to always needing to hold the UPPER HAND?
Will they always look to others as to why certain things are happening almost EVERYWHERE it seems, like they often remind us it is.
I know .. I know ...We are just simply to soft! ...We dont seem to enjoy folks of faith splitting our families and continually causing division and unrest year after year for thousands of years,for some silly strange reason.
It seems a number of us have finally gotten a bit sick of this "Love ya tho" ,we have had enough of being loved in this way.
I certainly dont like hearing christians are getting killed,but find it a little hard to see them as the simple martyrs they would try to have us all believe that they are.
However im sure there must be good reasons why the christians have faith in their supposed martyrdom,and i suggest it because the intelligent calculative folks who wrote their bible also added it in to the indoctrinations they read.Simply so folks would be fooled into keeping on thinking it was complete truth.
Dan
Christians don't use the "martyr" card any more than any other group. And Christians can be just as soft anyone else. My point was simply that in the grand schemes of things a little name calling should be the least of our problems. But sure in a perfect world and I had my way we wouldn't resort to such immature tactics as name calling. Do you honestly think that Christians monopolize the immature name calling behavior?
P.S. Harry McCall used nto call me freeno, I miss him. Thanks for the response, I'm sure we'll be seeing each other around the block.
Peace be with you, freeno
G
You sure read a lot into my simple and I thought harmless staements.
I'll try to respond to what I can.
Love shouldn't be reserved just for those who "deserve" it or a certain kind. Otherwise it looses something?
I hope you don't think I'm lacking honesty somehow? But I feel we can disagree about very important issues and not have malice for one another. And yes even "love" those who don't see the world as we do?
What group do you feel is being "targeted" more than others? And You didn't suggest that these martyrs somehow share a small responsibility because of what they teach/believe did you?
I would like to ask one more question, but it doesn't seem right unless I ask Eternal Truth, then you may respond if you wish?
Then G, if I have time later tonight I will respond to you and JD's stuff.
Tu Amigo, El Freeno
Hello lovely Eternal
See what you started? This post takes me all the way back to my first day in the blog world. After finding John's site I talked to several people who had nothing good to say about Christians, this was confusing because many of these same people were at one time Christians themselves.
In your short but sweet comment you refered to Christians as demeaning, arrogant, antagonistic, dogmatic, closeminded, defensive and those who scramble for various interpretive tricks to avoid this truth, (I'd just call them Shysters).
So I asked several bloggers if they thought this was the exception or the rule? I have a computer, I see what your talking about,I'm not proud of certtain actions. So your telling the truth, but there are many people who'd never condone such behaviour. I don't have a problem with Christians being held accountable for their actions. But the Christians you mentioned "those that truly had Christ in their hearts, that they would at least treat those who disagree with love and respect. Well I'd say that they're out there as well. And I will say just one last thing, that sometimes a few of those "mean" Christians really do love you and only want the best for you, but they just don't know how to show you?
Whew, I feel like I can go watch some football now and relax.
Thanks everyone for your courteousness.
Good night ET, feeno
John,
I'm hearing what you're saying.
"The lesson to be learned on both sides of the fence is that you never know who you might piss off. They pissed off the wrong guy."
But, I wonder if it is wisdom to allow our reactions, and choices to be shaped, and defined by others in this way?
Why should the reaction of these unloving fundamentalist apologists be allowed to determine your response to all Christians, and to the whole faith of the church?
In a sense, do they have a control over you?
Hey Feeno my friend, yeah your thought didnt harm me at all.Though most likely i never explained it so well,i was more trying to point out that while christian folks say things with such ease like "Love ya tho" .
It usually comes along with heaps of other stuff.Like telling us we cant be moral without having their god.Or telling us we are not charatable as faithful folk.Or its for sure we will go to hell if we dont also believe what they do,because their old ancient bible writers happened to say so.Or gay people shouldnt be allowed this or that because we christians dont think they should be even if there is nobody trying to make laws that christians need to be gay... ...But ..."Love ya tho"
And what ive written above thats only the tip of the iceberg..They have much more they try controling us with.Their beliefs happen to effect all our lives in so many ways.
And then when christians start getting killed somewhere in places in the world,christians feel woe is me and start wailing like they must be martyrs
And they hold it up high infront of us like its some strange phenomenon that we need to be made aware of, because they just cant understand or see any reason at all why it might likely be happening.
The fact that you said you didnt think anything much of what you said would likely have hurt anyone, to me seems to suggest a little bit of how folks of faith are sometimes so used to being amongst groups of their faithful folk who dont think they could ever be doing and saying any stuff to be pissing any folks off at all.They really do honestly believe everything they say and do is just have to be all about,..."Love ya tho"
They mix so much mostly with their own personal clan of worshipers and hear it said so much only from the one angle that they only ever doing the ....."Love ya tho" thing.
It could never ever likely ever be anything else it starts to seem in their own minds.
Feeno now even though ive said all of the above i still feel if i had to choose having some type of christians around,i can honestly say you certainly would be somebody id think of making my (first pick) as that choice.So hope you dont think i just simply dont like you by what ive said.Because i really do like you,i know you really do mean well i know you really mean to care about folks.And what you said didnt hurt me personaly at all,im just trying to explain why folks dont enjoy it
Im sorry if what i had said before seemed unfair i was only just trying to explain somehow, that yes i do happen to think some folks of faith tend to bring much of it on themselves.Its often kind of like..An analogy: you might be swimming enjoying yourself,i come along with a religious faithful belief folks shouldnt swim because my non swimming bible tells me its evil and bad.So i try draging you out of the water...You strangely for some reason dont like me draging you out of the water...You say oh sorry but you will go to hell for swimming ......."Love ya tho"
Dont know if this explains any of it any better Feeno.
Grace im not answering for John but for me there comes a time when you just get sick to death of it.Ignoring it just doesnt work.Infact ignoring it even makes it seem like you dont mind it.Ignoring it makes it just keep happening more and more.
Gandolf,
You can't reach these type of people by "fighting fire with fire," though. It just leads to an increased polarization, a vicious cycle that goes on and on.
Eternal Truth is right, "to not repay evil for evil."
These folks have deeper problems, and issues in their lives than questions of faith.
(As a follower of Jesus, I'm not particularly worried if people want to advocate for atheism all day long. Well, except that I feel grieved for the advocate.)
People who know the love of Christ in a deep sense, and are secure in God, as well as within themselves, are not going to feel threatened because folks out there hold to other opinions.
They are not going to automatically assume that everyone who differs with them has deliberately malevolent motives, or is an enemy
to be conquered.
Grace, what you're saying is that if I respond with passion to someone, anyone, that he has control over me, right? I don't see how that follows at all, otherwise we're all controlled by people we disagree with.
Nonetheless, what I'm responding to is a delusional faith. This faith justified the Inquisition, along with other hateful acts and verbal abuse coming from people who embrace that faith. It's that faith I'm am passionate about debunking. So what if there is collateral damage? Why should I care? Police your own ranks. What? You cannot do this? Of course not, because your faith rests on the same foundations as theirs does. Faith can justify about anything and it means nothing to me that it can justify kind actions coming from good people as well as unkind actions coming from spiteful people. It's still unjustified faith.
Well, John, I think it depends on the object of faith. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can justify killing in the name of Jesus Christ. Definitely takes some mental gymnastics, to put it mildly.
I'm not at all certain that I share the same faith with these folks who are hateful, and despising toward you. If they are followers of Jesus, why aren't they loving, and concerned for you, instead.
We should all be caring about
"collateral damage," to my mind. Does the end justify the means?
It really seems to me that Eternal
Truth has hit the nail on the head,
"If they truly had Christ in their hearts, that they would at least treat those who disagree with love and respect."
Amen to that, Eternal!!
Know from my own experience that people can become caught up in religion, and simply enculturated into the institutional church without actually having their lives deeply hidden in Christ with God.
Realize I'm speaking Christianize, but as a former pastor, I"m sure you know what I"m saying.
At any rate, I certainly can't police anyone, judge, or answer for another person. Only am able to speak for myself here.
My own experience is that it's generally better to attempt to find common ground with folks, and work from there, rather than to set off on the warpath, and paint everyone who disagrees with the same tarbrush.
Once people feel attacked, and disrespected, their defenses are triggered... They are apt to shut down, and reject any new info.
The only folks who are convinced are those who really wanted to be anyway, and are already pretty much there in their thinking. It's kinda like preachin to the choir. :)
Realize I"m not the one to convince you here, John. We'll have to agree to disagree, then.
Pax.
Yes John the cult i was born into that i left at an early age,only manages to keep going unchecked and undaunted because mostly absolutely nobody bothers that much about it.Even other christians have simply turned a blind eye some even patting them on the back in godly brotherly love type manner simply because they happen to read the same bible,while getting closer and closer to 80 years now.Many many families have been ripped apart and so much sadness and abuse has happend in the name of the god/s some folks even having suicided along the way ending their lives and leaving loved ones behind.
Grace whether you are right or wrong that fire cannot be fought with fire ...I would rather atleast try something than sit back for the next few thousand years while deluded folks of faith get to simply carry on doing as they please
You say.."Eternal Truth is right, "to not repay evil for evil."
Why are you so sure what we do is actually evil? ...because it doesnt sit well with your faith beliefs of old ancient times?
Sorry i wont just simply agree to follow old books and wise men said by some to be those we should all follow.
I will listen to others folk for sure, but use my own common sense and experiences as well.
Gandolf,
Perhaps you could share more with me concerning this cult to help me understand better.
Why have people committed suicide? And, what sort of things are the other Christians condoning? Are you speaking of Christians from other faith traditions?
Thanks, Gandolf.
Hi Grace the brand of christians i was born to are called a cult by a number of people now these days.Mostly because of having a high leader.And yet many brands of christian churches all have these leaders who dominate and dictate what goes and is acceptable or not etc.
And yes sucide happened quite a lot. Not like how and why it happened in the johnstown massacre, but because of the separation from evil thing and most often through prolonged sadness and distress and unhappiness through families being split and divided and total excommunication etc.
And it happens a lot more than many folks actually realize within a number of other different brands of christianity churches as well,not just the one i came from even though im sure maybe the one im talking about is most likely quite extreme.
Sometimes there doesnt even need to be the total excommunication bit involved,sometime enough shunning and nastiness etc will be enough to finally get to folks and create such a feeling of great sadness and worthlessness and a total disheartning feeling that folks just dont feel life is worth struggling through anymore.And thats how religion is also a cause of suicide,and i think if proper studies and statistics were actually compiled folks would be very very surprised.
Sadly i know for sure sometimes even suicide letters that are left by the victims, are perposly kept under wraps by faithful folk,thus stifling these problems becoming public knowledge.Thus stopping study and statistics from telling the truth.
This can legally happen because its not at all illegal to cause sadness that causes suicide,because of the laws of rights to religious freedoms etc.Police involved in these cases might even be very appalled at what they read in the victims letters about treatment received from christian family,but its not illegal to treat family even very very nasty if your religious beliefs happen to say you should do.Religious shunning and excommunication etc is quite legal.
Grace if you really need me to i could even go on the net and soon find a number of cases from a quite large number of (differing brands of christian church faiths),where suicide has been the end product of shunnings and sadness and all manner of nastinesses people have sadly been subjected to because their church and family etc are unhappy with who they are or how they live their life.And according to scripture have used psychological warfare so as to dish out some punishment in hope of bringing them back into line of how they believe they should be.Jesus supposedly said i come like a sword etc to divided is enough to confirm to folks of faith it must be ok.
There is seperated and even divorced parents split from their own children where one parent with custody of the child and the church will do what ever they can, to keep the child separate from a parent who might have left the church gathering and no longer come up to their christian belief standard as far as they are concerned.This really happens Grace!.Manipulation and mind control and pure psychological warfare which sadly is often made legal due to citing of certain faith beliefs.
And yes very sadly many of you christians do condone it,often without even really meaning to.Often just by patting the backs of some other brand of christians simply because they happen to be reading a bible like you do too.Because you think faith has to almost always be seen as such a very wonderful thing,not often do folks of faith tend so much to even bother to contemplate all the sadness it causes.No they are just to faithful and caught up in only all the fluffy bits of faith,like a drunked high on wine all day all night.
And sadly all to often that sadness even involves some deaths.There is also folks suffering from psychological problems,often throughout their whole lives if not totally for reasons of church nastiness often atleast still made worse because of it.
Grace just the fact that ive had to try to explain this more,is in my opinion proof of just how christians only see what they really want to see.
Gace says..." And, what sort of things are the other Christians condoning? Are you speaking of Christians from other faith traditions?"
Not sure where you actually live Gace but if say for instance you live in the U.S.A ... In a area close to the johnstown massacre ..And you voted for people for parliment etc keeping mind that they were the type who would likely uphold faithful folks rights and total freedoms of religious beliefs etc.
Would you agree your vote in effect helped the chances of the johnstown massacre being able to still happen? ...Would your vote also in this way infact be also condoning religious abuse that included the johnstown massacre?
I suggest even through the voting and retention of these religious freedom laws ...Most christian condone abuse within faiths that is infact only able to actually continue to happen mostly because these religious freedoms rights still actually exist.
Gandolf,
In my area, I have heard of some of the old order Amish, and Mennonite churches who practice "shunning."
I don't know alot about it, but it seems to me a real misapplication, and wrong understanding, probably, of the teaching of Paul.
I can only tell you from the bottom of my heart that I would be personally opposed to spiritual abuse in any shape or form.
To me, this doesn't show the love of Christ at all.
I know you're feeling that religion in general is the root of all these ills. But, I'm not so sure.
It seems to me that faith can also be very life-giving, and healing for people, depending on it's object.
I think that they we are all in some real measure broken, and fallen. We're alienated from God, and from each other. Sometimes this can be manifest through toxic religious practices.
Other times there can be abuse happening in a totally secular, atheistic state. I'm thinking of some of the horrendous abuse, and practices in the former Soviet Union, and communist China.
There are higher suicide rates in some countries that appear more secular than the U.S.
Where are from, Gandolf? I sense that you've had a very hurtful experience at the hands of the church, and from so-called Christians.
I'm very sorry for this, but hope that you will not paint all people of faith, and the entire Christian church with the same tarbrush.
Is there anyway I can personally be of any help to you, and your family?
Hi Grace ...Very kind of you to wish to help, and thanks the thought is very much appreciated.
But thats actually also partly why this type of thing is so very important to discuss,because even you yourself really cannot help me or my family that much.What can you actually do to change matters so much?,can you give us another chance at life without religious abuse?.
And even if you managed to help our family, there is still so very many other families suffering as well because of faithful religious beliefs.Even in your area im sure there will be religious abuse thats not so public knowledge.Hey why would many folks mention it much?....Not so many seem to really care ...Most folk seem to think its just luck of the draw...you received faithful parents, faithful parents have rights of total freedom of faith..Why should we care ..Its your problem Jack .
If you honestly wish to help me and my family, i would ask that you discuss this matter more with many other faith believers and friends.Talk with them all about whether kind christians like yourself who happen to also be involved from time to time in voting for retention of total freedoms of rights to religious faith laws,might not be inadvertently helping in sealing the fate of many others in faiths whos abusers use the (very same rights you all vote for) to be able to carry out the abuse.
I have nothing against faithful folk personally if you visited my home im the type who would absolutely insist you have the best bed in the house!,but i find it hard to swallow that faith can be voted to be able to become like a separate law unto itself,where soceity has no rights left for many checks and balances.
So no i do not simply paint all folks of faith with the same brush.And in actual fact its the faith beliefs i feel are often the cause of the problem,not really the faithful followers.I dont even tell folks the name of my families belief,simply because i feel its not really about getting folks to war against certain faiths picked out as "the" abusers.This i feel would be wrong when often it more only about a simple fact, these folk honestly feel they are only doing what god wishes.
Grace i understand why you might not hear that much about abuse happening in faith circles around you.Its not really something anyone is so likely to feel proud to talk so freely about is it?, And faithful folk who really believe what they do is right, dont want folks hearing about it who might then try to stop them having the said "faith freedoms".
And then to TOP this all off Grace is the fear of lose of family connections etc if you DARE SPEAK publicly about it...Grace think about those we do see on the news who happen to try leaving some abusive faiths,think about how we often then see them being kinda shunned and disliked from family they naturally love etc.Even if its done only in certain very subtle ways to try to hopefully cover the dislike up a little,so no more public outrage happens.
Does this type of nasty action tell you it seems that likely that even if abuse actually exist in faith around you,that you would actually be so very likely to actually hear so much openly spoken publicly about it??.
No you wont hear much Grace...you wont...Believe me there is often just far to much at stake ... In my situation for instance it cost me in many ways ...Im fine!! ive survived ..Im reasonably happy!! and done quite ok as far as living goes and ive been lucky and humans have been very kind .... But ive only been ALLOWED to see my (own mother once in 32years) ...And my children have (never) ever been allowed to see their grand mother ..Or uncles or aunts or cousins etc
If you honestly wish to help me Grace i ask you to join with me even as yourself being a believer,to help change laws a little that in actual effect do enchain many folks in abuse of faith.That even though not so much can be done about helping me and my families life anymore, but more about that hopefully something can still be done so that many other folks in future might not need to experience the same.
Thanks for sharing, and talking with me, Gandolf.
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