Here's a ten part essay on cults, including how they recruit, how cult members are deprogrammed, and so forth. I think most Christianities are cults from the various descriptions I read there. What d'ya think?
The author makes an unavoidable distinction between a cult and a religion on the very first page of her essay: "...a "cult" operates outside of mainstream society".
Right away, we can see the problem with John's position, namely that Christianity operates within mainstream society. This is further complemented by noting the comment regarding schooling: "[children from cults] do not usually attend school, and the cult may or may not provide its children with an education" and the comment regarding day to day living: "[there] is very little freedom in daily life: The leader prescribes what a member can and cannot do for every minute of the day. This includes what food he can eat, what books he can read, whom he can talk to, what he can wear, where he can go and how long he can sleep."
On the contrary, mainstream Christians and the religion(s) they practice are deeply embedded within their respective societies in everything ranging from educational institutions to politics. This isn't the "behaviour" of a cult operating outside of mainstream society.
I also find it difficult to believe that the majority of the 'deconverted' have had difficulty adjusting to 'outside' life (a common, documented problem facing former cultists). Many of my closest friends have over time turned their backs on the respective religions they were raised in without any change in lifestyle or psychological well-being. This flies in the face of what former cultists should be experiencing, that is: "difficulty thinking clearly, making decisions, analyzing situations and performing everyday activities like picking out something to wear or going to the store to buy groceries"
Instead, Christianity should be viewed as a religion considering it "usually operates within mainstream culture, requires varying levels of commitment from its members and typically has a leadership hierarchy that, in practice, can serve as a series of checks and balances."
I think this is a bit too extreme. Cults are almost always small and isolated from society. Sometimes they explode and grow too big for their britches, but even then there are attempts made to constrain their size in some way. Christianity as a whole cannot be compared to this - it's huge. It's pervasive in society rather than removed from it.
Now, with that said, religion can certainly breed cults, and most cults are either off-shoots of a local church or else the local church becomes one. It all depends on whether it's the pastor or another influential leader in the church that is the charismatic cult figure. So in that sense, religions and cults are a difference of degree rather than of kind. Cults push isolation, groupthink, and charisma to the extreme, while religions may have these aspects, but are not nearly as forceful.
Although Christianity operates within society...the broad fringes....rather more fringe then main body...act and operate as a cult would...
All you have described occurs regularly within that framenwork.
'"[children from cults] do not usually attend school, and the cult may or may not provide its children with an education"';
Home schooling is very popular in the Southern states I believe...not because the schools are few or far between or provide bad service...but because Evolution in on the curriculum and not ID/Creationism... The bible is the text book of choice...supplemented with other non-threatening neutral learning.
'[there] is very little freedom in daily life'
Exactly what freedom do you have in main stream Christianity let alone the fringe binge so called minority bunnies. Either to question or examine the premise?
'The leader prescribes what a member can and cannot do for every minute of the day'
Certainly the leader prescribes what a member can and cannot do...maybe in some denominations that is more stringent...but it is there.
'This includes what food he can eat'
Judaism and the other Abrahamic belief Islam could be considered main stream faith and they do so quite readily... in fact it is mandatory.
' what books he can read'
I have come across forums on the ionternet where a 'believer' has admitted that his pastor would disapprove of scientific texts to the point of apoplexy and 'suggest' suitable books from the library...mainly spiritually based. This spills over in to what films are allowed...Harry Potter and The Golden Compass along with The Lord of the Rings were definitely off limits...but Narnia was fine! And that is main stream Roman Catholicism!
'whom he can talk to'
Roman Catholic and Protestant schools in Ulster were covered by that unwritten rule...and not so long ago!
'what he can wear'
Mormons...they all like the men in black look!
'where he can go'
Not pubs apparently.
'how long he can sleep'
To be fair society regulates that pattern!
'This isn't the "behaviour" of a cult operating outside of mainstream society.'
It does not have to it already has most of certain societies by the short and curlies...and it is mandated in law!
'I also find it difficult to believe that the majority of the 'deconverted' have had difficulty adjusting to 'outside' life'
Depending on the situation ostracism is the least of their problems when they decide enough clap trap is enough.
'"difficulty thinking clearly, making decisions, analyzing situations and performing everyday activities like picking out something to wear or going to the store to buy groceries"
Certainly a problem where intensive brain washing is a daily regime...but even normal Christians leaving the safety of the community delusion have similar quandaries of decision. Not to the same degree probably but enough to confuse for a while! It depends on personal indoctrination they suffered when growing up..the tighter the stranglehold by the church on the community the more difficult the functioning as an independent bunny outside that group.
Let alone the family tensions that can be rather deaconian in reaction. Ask folks here...I am sure there are some real horror stories...some are already viewed on the various threads.
'Instead, Christianity should be viewed as a religion considering it "usually operates within mainstream culture, requires varying levels of commitment from its members and typically has a leadership hierarchy that, in practice, can serve as a series of checks and balances."'
And there the fallacy bites... In practice the checks and balances are not quite as balanced and checked as they really should be...simply because there is no standard and governing ombudsman to regulate...tis a free house...and it is indeed abused.
People that passionately believe in a sky daddy and fairy stories with the rest of the man created strictures rules and boundaries that to a greater or lesser extent comprise Christianity can not be left to self govern the faith...for a start they prefer by far Popes Arch Bishops and Cardinals above and beyond inquiry...
So they can blindly accept the latest bit of man created nonsense without a conscious thought...because that is what the representative of their god has said.
Indicates that as main stream Christian allegiance slips...evangelistic and fundamentalist disciplines are gaining....the church is literally splintering in to cults...the totally unregulated...the extreme...the enclave...the small group...the nutty kind...the REAL nutty kind...the Christian kind...at least in name!
Christianity is also a form of mental abuse, it beats down people's value, worth, and self-esteem.
It says that we are all born vile depraved sinners, worthy of every evil and harmful act that happens to us.
We are so evil and depraved that we should just be thankful to be allowed to breath air, because god could easily toss us into eternal hellfire without a 2nd thought.
But this god is just oh so gracious, he is just so holy and good that he overlooks the fact that we are born demonic sinners and sent his son, who happens to be a co-equal and co-eternal member of the trinity (don't ask how exactly they have a father/son relationship if they are both equal and eternal) to pay for our sins if we submit to him as slaves for the rest of our lives.
Christianity doctrine devalues human life, even looking upon infants as vile, rebellious, sinners under god's wrath (although their christian children are turned holy upon baptism).
This debasing of human worth, is their attempt to make the god of the bible look good and generous, for saving a few people, even though he on occasions massacres and slaughters other poor saps that weren't so fortunate.
This way god can slaughter anyone he chooses and still be "a wonderful merciful savior, precious redeemer and friend".
Christianity certainly has many cult like attributes today, and in it's early stages, was a bonafide cult.
Commands complete and total devotion Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Luk 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Alienates people from there family Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Controls what you wear, who you associate with and marry, how you behave.2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 1Ti 2:9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,
So John, how many Master degrees did you say you possess? And in what way do you compare these to a doctorate?
Amazing you claim to be a philosopher of religion and you don't even know the basics for classifying what is a cult and what isn't. Even in the article that you cite, your argument is made fruitless. Tell me John, what is the fundamental difference between a religion and a cult, if you can name of any. Or do you just consider these to be one in the same?
Maybe this will help:
Religion = doctrine
Cult = leader, psychological brainwashing
Spirituality = mix of religious doctrines; often personally held view
Those are the absolute, bare neccessities in order for each of the three to exist. Without that at the very core, you don't have any of those. You can't have a religion with a sacred text. You can't have a cult without a major authority figure telling people what to do all the time this can get blended in with religion but does not equate the two!
Arguing from a site that mine as well be Wikipedia in scholarly validity does not make for a good reference when it comes to this sort of thing. Furthermore, this particular article doesn't even agree with you! Are you sure you didn't get your "degrees" from the bottom of a Happy Meal or something?
The bible/religion was written by leaders and major authority figures,so what then is the difference you try to refer too.As it sure contains plenty of (psychological) brainwashing.
Yes mainstream churches etc (so far) have mostly been seen as non abusive etc.
But so have many other things in life in the past,in fact in some places it was once thought that rape could not exist in marriage either.
Sorry Hometown but if you had the same history with this guy as I've had you would probably just ban him and delete his comments. At least I'm giving him a chance here, but only one. He lives in the sewer and he is what I said he is. Only if he cleans up his act and enters the civilized world of discussion will I allow him to comment again. One slip up and he's gone. I expect him to do so the very next time he comments.
Truthbetold, don't be an asshole if you expect me to answer you. We ban assholes here at DC, unlike the sewer forum out of which you crawled.
I'm willing to discuss matters in a civil fashion if I could get some clarity on what you consider to be an "asshole" John.
But just to let you know that I'm always up for burying the hatchet, I want an answer to this simple question I'm about to pose to you: If I crawled out of the sewer, why do you feel compelled to keep coming back on occassion?
The bible/religion was written by leaders and major authority figures,so what then is the difference you try to refer too.As it sure contains plenty of (psychological) brainwashing.
In all fairness, there are linguistic contexts for the usage of specific terms. You probably are already aware of Christians being called "atheists" by Romans and the like. Yet today, we would not call Christians under any circumstances an atheist. Well, some people do, but I think it's a rather stupid argument. Even polytheistic religions didn't believe in certain gods. In order for Christianity to be atheist, you would have to find a religion that encompasses every deity known to man. The closest you come up with is Hinduism, and even that doesn't encompass EVERYTHING.
Anyways, my point is that Christianity did start off as a cult, but it was a different cultural context at the time, and so contemporary cult organization doesn't apply in this case.
Zarove, every new religion is a cult in my understanding and every religion had a beginning.
Tell me this then, when does a cult cease to be a cult if it started as a cult? Does a religious group cease to be a cult because it has longevity in a particular culture? I just don't see why this is the case at all. It's like what Sam Harris has said: just because a majority of people in a particular culture agree doesn't mean anything other than that they agree. The beliefs of Christians today would be rejected outright without so much as a thought by ancient Jews, pagans, and even early Christianities, and it will be rejected by the Christianities of the future since the Christian faith is like a chameleon ever changing to adapt to its culture.
13 comments:
The author makes an unavoidable distinction between a cult and a religion on the very first page of her essay: "...a "cult" operates outside of mainstream society".
Right away, we can see the problem with John's position, namely that Christianity operates within mainstream society. This is further complemented by noting the comment regarding schooling: "[children from cults] do not usually attend school, and the cult may or may not provide its children with an education" and the comment regarding day to day living: "[there] is very little freedom in daily life: The leader prescribes what a member can and cannot do for every minute of the day. This includes what food he can eat, what books he can read, whom he can talk to, what he can wear, where he can go and how long he can sleep."
On the contrary, mainstream Christians and the religion(s) they practice are deeply embedded within their respective societies in everything ranging from educational institutions to politics. This isn't the "behaviour" of a cult operating outside of mainstream society.
I also find it difficult to believe that the majority of the 'deconverted' have had difficulty adjusting to 'outside' life (a common, documented problem facing former cultists). Many of my closest friends have over time turned their backs on the respective religions they were raised in without any change in lifestyle or psychological well-being. This flies in the face of what former cultists should be experiencing, that is: "difficulty thinking clearly, making decisions, analyzing situations and performing everyday activities like picking out something to wear or going to the store to buy groceries"
Instead, Christianity should be viewed as a religion considering it "usually operates within mainstream culture, requires varying levels of commitment from its members and typically has a leadership hierarchy that, in practice, can serve as a series of checks and balances."
I think this is a bit too extreme. Cults are almost always small and isolated from society. Sometimes they explode and grow too big for their britches, but even then there are attempts made to constrain their size in some way. Christianity as a whole cannot be compared to this - it's huge. It's pervasive in society rather than removed from it.
Now, with that said, religion can certainly breed cults, and most cults are either off-shoots of a local church or else the local church becomes one. It all depends on whether it's the pastor or another influential leader in the church that is the charismatic cult figure. So in that sense, religions and cults are a difference of degree rather than of kind. Cults push isolation, groupthink, and charisma to the extreme, while religions may have these aspects, but are not nearly as forceful.
Although Christianity operates within society...the broad fringes....rather more fringe then main body...act and operate as a cult would...
All you have described occurs regularly within that framenwork.
'"[children from cults] do not usually attend school, and the cult may or may not provide its children with an education"';
Home schooling is very popular in the Southern states I believe...not because the schools are few or far between or provide bad service...but because Evolution in on the curriculum and not ID/Creationism...
The bible is the text book of choice...supplemented with other non-threatening neutral learning.
'[there] is very little freedom in daily life'
Exactly what freedom do you have in main stream Christianity let alone the fringe binge so called minority bunnies.
Either to question or examine the premise?
'The leader prescribes what a member can and cannot do for every minute of the day'
Certainly the leader prescribes what a member can and cannot do...maybe in some denominations that is more stringent...but it is there.
'This includes what food he can eat'
Judaism and the other Abrahamic belief Islam could be considered main stream faith and they do so quite readily... in fact it is mandatory.
' what books he can read'
I have come across forums on the ionternet where a 'believer' has admitted that his pastor would disapprove of scientific texts to the point of apoplexy and 'suggest' suitable books from the library...mainly spiritually based.
This spills over in to what films are allowed...Harry Potter and The Golden Compass along with The Lord of the Rings were definitely off limits...but Narnia was fine!
And that is main stream Roman Catholicism!
'whom he can talk to'
Roman Catholic and Protestant schools in Ulster were covered by that unwritten rule...and not so long ago!
'what he can wear'
Mormons...they all like the men in black look!
'where he can go'
Not pubs apparently.
'how long he can sleep'
To be fair society regulates that pattern!
'This isn't the "behaviour" of a cult operating outside of mainstream society.'
It does not have to it already has most of certain societies by the short and curlies...and it is mandated in law!
'I also find it difficult to believe that the majority of the 'deconverted' have had difficulty adjusting to 'outside' life'
Depending on the situation ostracism is the least of their problems when they decide enough clap trap is enough.
'"difficulty thinking clearly, making decisions, analyzing situations and performing everyday activities like picking out something to wear or going to the store to buy groceries"
Certainly a problem where intensive brain washing is a daily regime...but even normal Christians leaving the safety of the community delusion have similar quandaries of decision.
Not to the same degree probably but enough to confuse for a while!
It depends on personal indoctrination they suffered when growing up..the tighter the stranglehold by the church on the community the more difficult the functioning as an independent bunny outside that group.
Let alone the family tensions that can be rather deaconian in reaction.
Ask folks here...I am sure there are some real horror stories...some are already viewed on the various threads.
'Instead, Christianity should be viewed as a religion considering it "usually operates within mainstream culture, requires varying levels of commitment from its members and typically has a leadership hierarchy that, in practice, can serve as a series of checks and balances."'
And there the fallacy bites...
In practice the checks and balances are not quite as balanced and checked as they really should be...simply because there is no standard and governing ombudsman to regulate...tis a free house...and it is indeed abused.
People that passionately believe in a sky daddy and fairy stories with the rest of the man created strictures rules and boundaries that to a greater or lesser extent comprise Christianity can not be left to self govern the faith...for a start they prefer by far Popes Arch Bishops and Cardinals above and beyond inquiry...
So they can blindly accept the latest bit of man created nonsense without a conscious thought...because that is what the representative of their god has said.
It is unhealthy to say the least...
Recent polling information published
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506849,00.html
Indicates that as main stream Christian allegiance slips...evangelistic and fundamentalist disciplines are gaining....the church is literally splintering in to cults...the totally unregulated...the extreme...the enclave...the small group...the nutty kind...the REAL nutty kind...the Christian kind...at least in name!
Christianity is also a form of mental abuse, it beats down people's value, worth, and self-esteem.
It says that we are all born vile depraved sinners, worthy of every evil and harmful act that happens to us.
We are so evil and depraved that we should just be thankful to be allowed to breath air, because god could easily toss us into eternal hellfire without a 2nd thought.
But this god is just oh so gracious, he is just so holy and good that he overlooks the fact that we are born demonic sinners and sent his son, who happens to be a co-equal and co-eternal member of the trinity (don't ask how exactly they have a father/son relationship if they are both equal and eternal) to pay for our sins if we submit to him as slaves for the rest of our lives.
Christianity doctrine devalues human life, even looking upon infants as vile, rebellious, sinners under god's wrath (although their christian children are turned holy upon baptism).
This debasing of human worth, is their attempt to make the god of the bible look good and generous, for saving a few people, even though he on occasions massacres and slaughters other poor saps that weren't so fortunate.
This way god can slaughter anyone he chooses and still be "a wonderful merciful savior, precious redeemer and friend".
Christianity certainly has many cult like attributes today, and in it's early stages, was a bonafide cult.
Commands complete and total devotion Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Alienates people from there family Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Controls what you wear, who you associate with and marry, how you behave.2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 1Ti 2:9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,
So John, how many Master degrees did you say you possess? And in what way do you compare these to a doctorate?
Amazing you claim to be a philosopher of religion and you don't even know the basics for classifying what is a cult and what isn't. Even in the article that you cite, your argument is made fruitless. Tell me John, what is the fundamental difference between a religion and a cult, if you can name of any. Or do you just consider these to be one in the same?
Maybe this will help:
Religion = doctrine
Cult = leader, psychological brainwashing
Spirituality = mix of religious doctrines; often personally held view
Those are the absolute, bare neccessities in order for each of the three to exist. Without that at the very core, you don't have any of those. You can't have a religion with a sacred text. You can't have a cult without a major authority figure telling people what to do all the time this can get blended in with religion but does not equate the two!
Arguing from a site that mine as well be Wikipedia in scholarly validity does not make for a good reference when it comes to this sort of thing. Furthermore, this particular article doesn't even agree with you! Are you sure you didn't get your "degrees" from the bottom of a Happy Meal or something?
Truth Be Told said..."Religion = doctrine
Cult = leader, psychological brainwashing"
The bible/religion was written by leaders and major authority figures,so what then is the difference you try to refer too.As it sure contains plenty of (psychological) brainwashing.
Yes mainstream churches etc (so far) have mostly been seen as non abusive etc.
But so have many other things in life in the past,in fact in some places it was once thought that rape could not exist in marriage either.
Truthbetold, don't be an asshole if you expect me to answer you. We ban assholes here at DC, unlike the sewer forum out of which you crawled.
John: That kind of language is completely unnecessary. Clean up the act.
Sorry Hometown but if you had the same history with this guy as I've had you would probably just ban him and delete his comments. At least I'm giving him a chance here, but only one. He lives in the sewer and he is what I said he is. Only if he cleans up his act and enters the civilized world of discussion will I allow him to comment again. One slip up and he's gone. I expect him to do so the very next time he comments.
Truthbetold, don't be an asshole if you expect me to answer you. We ban assholes here at DC, unlike the sewer forum out of which you crawled.
I'm willing to discuss matters in a civil fashion if I could get some clarity on what you consider to be an "asshole" John.
But just to let you know that I'm always up for burying the hatchet, I want an answer to this simple question I'm about to pose to you: If I crawled out of the sewer, why do you feel compelled to keep coming back on occassion?
The bible/religion was written by leaders and major authority figures,so what then is the difference you try to refer too.As it sure contains plenty of (psychological) brainwashing.
In all fairness, there are linguistic contexts for the usage of specific terms. You probably are already aware of Christians being called "atheists" by Romans and the like. Yet today, we would not call Christians under any circumstances an atheist. Well, some people do, but I think it's a rather stupid argument. Even polytheistic religions didn't believe in certain gods. In order for Christianity to be atheist, you would have to find a religion that encompasses every deity known to man. The closest you come up with is Hinduism, and even that doesn't encompass EVERYTHING.
Anyways, my point is that Christianity did start off as a cult, but it was a different cultural context at the time, and so contemporary cult organization doesn't apply in this case.
Calling something a cult is just an easy way to demonise it.
Nothign more.
This is an old Insult, John. You should know better than just to depict it as bad because you don't like it.
Zarove, every new religion is a cult in my understanding and every religion had a beginning.
Tell me this then, when does a cult cease to be a cult if it started as a cult? Does a religious group cease to be a cult because it has longevity in a particular culture? I just don't see why this is the case at all. It's like what Sam Harris has said: just because a majority of people in a particular culture agree doesn't mean anything other than that they agree. The beliefs of Christians today would be rejected outright without so much as a thought by ancient Jews, pagans, and even early Christianities, and it will be rejected by the Christianities of the future since the Christian faith is like a chameleon ever changing to adapt to its culture.
And don't put words into my mouth. I don't believe in demons to demonize anything. I strongly affirm the separation of church and state. Do you?
Post a Comment