"Seek And Ye Shall Find: The Atheist Doesn't Do It Right"

This is yet another Christian Heuristic that "blames the victim" in the same way as "if you don't understand it, its your fault". Some qualifiers are missing in that statement, mainly SCOPE and DEFINITION but also the ACTIONS of the AGENTS DOING THE SEARCH and AGENTS BEING SEARCHED FOR. What are the responsibilities of the Agents? What is the definition of "a comprehensive" search? And how will you know when you find it? There must be a description to go by or how will one know when they've found it?

Principles Of Searching.
Searching is a comparison of a description to something else. The more specific the search criteria are, the more likely a successful match will be found. Its Baysian in the sense that one has to make decisions about each clue such as "what is the likelihood that I am having success given such and such indication". But it gets even easier if a human is searching for a person, or a pet. When they are searching for each other they take actions to expedite the search and when they see each other, they make contact in an unambiguous way.

The Critical Question Generators: Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How.
John Searle, a philosopher of mind is quoted as saying that he has a maxim that is summed up as "if you can't say it clearly, you don't understand it yourself". I live by that and it has served me well since I first heard it.
So now, lets get a grip on the scope of the search.

- How do you know?
- How is the search carried out?
- How will we know when we find it?
- How long should we expect to look?
- What do you have to go on?
- What actions should the seeker take? What are the seekers responsibilities?
- What actions should the one being sought take? What are the responsibilities of the one being sought?
- What are we looking for? Does it exist? What does it look like, feel like, taste like, smell like, sound like?
- What are some false indictations that may fool us?
- Who says?
- Who are we searching for? Do they exist?
- Who made it? Who originated it? Who lost it? Who hid it?
- Why do you say that?
- Why isn't it obvious?
- Why are we looking? What is the benefit?
- When did it happen?
- When is it happening?
- When should the search take place? What is the best time? When was it lost? When did it originate?
- Where did it happen?
- Where will it happen?
- Where is it happening?
- Where is the search carried out?

Its always good to check the answers to these critical questions with another pass through the critical question generator to do a "reality check".

Searching For The Most Beautiful Work Of Art
I challenge anyone to go find the most beautiful art work in their nearest museum. I challenge anyone to do an experiment where peple are asked before they go in to find and report back which is the most beautiful art work in the museum. There will not be a consensus. A percentage of people will pick a particular work of art but not all will pick the same work of art. If they are given some criteria to look for and If the searchers report back that they've matched the criteria to a work of art, then its likely what they've identified is not what they think is the most beautiful work of art. Its someone else's idea of the most beautiful work of art.

If they should be told what the criteria are, then where did the criteria come from? Who derived them? Were they qualified to derive them? Do the criteria accurately reflect what the seeker holds as being characteristics of the most beautiful work of art?

Searching For Jesus
So if one must seek Jesus to find Jesus, and one was convinced that they found Jesus but had second thoughts, changed their mind and became an apostate, then what they found must have only matched the description superficially. They must have made a mistake.

Searching is a comparison of a description to something else.
So since its possible to mistake something else for Jesus, the description needs to be more specific as to what it is that should be used as criteria for the search. How will one know it? How long should one look before one can conclude that one is not looking in the right place and have to move on? How long should one have to look for a being that is waiting for another or maybe even looking for that other?

If two people, pets or combination want to find each other, they take some actions to expedite the search.
Why should one have to look for more than a minute for a supernatural being that can do anything to make its presence known to someone? Why would it let someone incorrectly identify something when it knows that the seeker will become discouraged and give up in some cases? Why is it easier for an owner to find their cat than Jesus? I'll bet more cats have been found across all categories of people than Jesus.

The Search for Jesus Violates Sound Principles Of Searching.
How can anyone be blamed for not recognizing what it is they are supposed to be looking for, or not finding something when they don't understand what it is they are looking for?

If the presumption is that God exists, then searching until he's found makes sense, but if he's waiting and looking for us, it doesn't make sense that he would hide or let himself be mistaken for something else. If God doesn't exist, then our poor results are what should be expected.

27 comments:

strangebrew said...

And how many blatantly lie when they claim revelation?

Atheism undermines the principle of mass delusion where all must sing from the same hymn sheet.

Otherwise the discordance disturbs the ambiance of self satisfied pronouncements on morality and which cult is better tuned to serve which aspect of divinity them whom.

The search is not for god or jeebus it is for self comfort and tailored to fit the intellectual range of the recipient.
It is also a rabid intolerance to questions of either premise or reason.
Maybe because the fragility of the delusion is obvious under logic and for anyone to completely succumb to such a fairy story of such mega proportion makes it is difficult if not impossible to admit error.
The bruising to the ego...for believing foolish things...and the damage to self image specifically the IQ capacity that allowed the fundamental error do not allow it...better by far to continue to believe a nonsense then admit it a falsehood!

There is no...nor has there ever been a...one size fits all...spiritual enlightenment.

This is okay apparently cos all infected bunnies are hopping down the same dark alley.

Atheism on the other hand is not on the radar and they cannot understand the principle because they have been told it is either intellectually remiss or promoted by the devil so they refuse to believe it a valid choice.
It must have been a incident that turned the atheist from god...and the usual response is..'we will pray for you!'...totally ignoring the point!

when that has little to zero effect then out of sheer arrogance born mainly of fear they blame the atheist cos it is not the acolytes navigation that is suspect of course!

As they say...you can always tell a Christian...but ya can't tell them much...!

The 'Atheist doesn't do it right' ridiculousness is par for the course and as such it should receive all the contempt and the 'point and laugh' response owing, nothing else.

It is the mewling of folks attempting projection because deep down they are terrified that indeed they might well be wrong themselves, but that is best not admitted to because they would lose their standing in their own community,sad and desperate tactics really...but not unexpected!

It is a sound byte manufactured to to stroke the troops ruffled feathers and foster commonality of purpose...now all they need is a purpose!

mrsonic said...

james white debated a muslim college kid recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=kKjIKeE1CvE&feature=channel_page

who won the debate? i am unable to hear the debate because i don't have a sound card.

strangebrew said...

Christian compassion is a quality strained!

And the bitterness in their sinking delusion is sad to see, but such is life without a quantifiable god.

The pity being some folks require a invisible friend to tell them how to be compassionate and human, but they fail to remember when they leave a church or close the book. Cognitive dissonance leads eventually to impaired short term memory, and devastated long term come to that.

Maybe that is why so many boast the 'born again' tag.
Might be convenient to forget at times they have been and are an ugly breed of being!

They have problems relating to people...simple like so...that is what you get from trying to relate to a fairy story for any amount of time!

Harry H. McCall said...

Lee, another great post.

As the late Morton Smith once said: “If you don’t understand something; it must be religious.”

The reason religion is so easy to defend is because it is so subjective. Jesus to a Mormon; is not the Jesus to a Catholic; is not Jesus to a Christian Scientist; is not the same Jesus to a Calvinist; is not the same Jesus to a Moonie and so on.

Jesus is found when he is reconstructed to suit a religious need.

Now when this Jesus is orthodox for me then all the other Christian Jesus constructs are heretical.

FACT: I believe the Bible!

FACT: When you disagree with me, you are disagreeing with the Bible since the Bible SAID IT and I BELIEVE IT!

FACT: Hell will not be hot enough for heretics and false Christianities!

ahswan said...

"How can anyone be blamed for not recognizing what it is they are supposed to be looking for, or not finding something when they don't understand what it is they are looking for?"

That's a good question. It's kind of like looking at one of those "hidden pictures" posters. If you're the only one in the room who can't see the pirate ship, whose fault is it?

For me, it's very easy to find Jesus/God. It not only seems incredibly obvious, it's also very logical. So, why can't someone "see" God when they claim to be looking for him? I do know why some of my friends can't see God; generally it comes down to either not wanting to, or insisting that if God doesn't follow their rules, he doesn't exist. But, I can't answer that question for everyone. All I can do is testify that for me, it's obvious; I can "see the pirate ship."

Nightmare said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

HI Ahswan,
I responded to you in my recent article Dealing With More Christian Heuristics

strangebrew said...

'FACT: Hell will not be hot enough for heretics and false Christianities!'

Atheists will not have to do a dang thang.
Let the jeebus lovers smite each other and atheism will pick up the disillusioned after they have smoted seven shades of effluent out of each other then realize they have been conned!

And seeing as atheists are immune to hell, because it is a figment of religious stunted imagination we can just laugh at their antics, and mourn for the..

FACT... that if fellow Christians that rapture to the same delusion refuse to come to an arrangement, then there is absolutely no chance that globally different religions will ever practice in peace and goodwill!

Religion will be the Armageddon of civilization...not some anti-christ hysterical mewlings by the hard of thinking or indeed atheist intolerance...it will be good old christian values that will do for them.

Religion is showing its petticoats...all that hatred and bile... and stomachs are just turning in revulsion, they are doing a fine job all on their lonesome, but no doubt they will start whining that it was those nasty atheists that did for them...so be it!
Just so long as another invisible friend joins the pantheon of all the other failed delusions then all is right with the world!

feeno said...

'Brew

Tell me something the Bible hasn't already told me. Matt. 10:34-36. He knew there wouldn't be "world peace."

And please, get over your Atheist self. I don't think the end of the world is gonna be because of Atheists. You might be duped in those times but rest assured those trying to defeat God's plan know full well who he is.

I can't help the fact there are so many people who call themselves Christians that are so full of hate
and bile ( I don't know what bile is, but I'm sure it's not good) and I've even gone to church with a few people like that. But I'm not gonna give them any credit either, when that day comes.

Not all Christians have the same old "Christian values" whatever they are. If I say I believe being gay is a sin, then all of a sudden I'm an intolerable, bigot that hates people simply because of their sexual preference. Or if I say I'm against abortion then I'm a far right Christian conservative right wing nut. ( I hope I'm not getting to far off topic?)

Brew, just remember Jebus lubs you.

Peace out, feeno

Unknown said...

Simon Greenleaf proposed the following in his essay "Testimony of the Evangelists":

§ 1. In examining the evidences of the Christian religion, it is essential to the discovery of truth that we bring to the investigation a mind freed, as far as possible, from existing prejudice, and open to conviction. There should be a readiness, on our part, to investigate with candor, to follow the truth wherever it may lead us, and to submit, without reserve or objection, to all the teachings of this religion, if it be found to be of divine origin. “There is no other entrance,” says Lord Bacon, “to the kingdom of man, which is founded in the sciences, than to the kingdom of heaven, into which no one can enter but in the character of a little child.”1 The docility which true philosophy requires of her disciples is not a spirit of servility, or the surrender of the reason and judgment to whatsoever the teacher may inculcate; but it is a mind free from all pride of opinion, not hostile to the truth sought for, willing to pursue the inquiry, and impartially to weigh the arguments and evidence, and to acquiesce in the judgment of right reason. The investigation, moreover, should be pursued with the serious earnestness which becomes the greatness of the subject—a subject fraught with such momentous consequences to man. It should be pursued as in the presence of God, and under the solemn sanctions created by a lively sense of his omniscience, and of our accountability to him for the right use of the faculties which he has bestowed.

§ 2. In requiring this candor and simplicity of mind in those who would investigate the truth of our religion, Christianity demands nothing more than is readily conceded to every branch of human science. All these have their data, and their axioms; and Christianity, too, has her first principles, the admission of which is essential to any real progress in knowledge. “Christianity,” says Bishop Wilson, “inscribes on the portal of her dominion ‘Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall in nowise enter therein.’ Christianity does not profess to convince the perverse and head-strong, to bring irresistible evidence to the daring and profane, to vanquish the proud scorner, and afford evidences from which the careless and perverse cannot possibly escape. This might go to destroy man’s responsibility. All that Christianity professes, is to propose such evidences as may satisfy the meek, the tractable, the candid, the serious inquirer.”

Unknown said...

Forgot the link:

http://www.classicapologetics.com/g/GreenTes1.html

strangebrew said...

'Tell me something the Bible hasn't already told me. Matt. 10:34-36. He knew there wouldn't be "world peace." '

Seems Christians have a handy self fulfilling prophecy then!

Means they can do what they want because it has already been ordained by a book full of old wives tales and goat herder wishful thinking!

And so pompous are those that smugly quote a feeble bit of scripture out of a compendium of stories baked and half baked and mostly lifted from earlier stories of myths and gods and seriously expect the rest of the world to agree...you really are deluded my friend!

' I don't think the end of the world is gonna be because of Atheists..'

Well you might not but plenty of your persuasion believe it so....ask them!

' rest assured those trying to defeat God's plan know full well who he is'

Who is he...maybe a little cohesive rambling will help...who is your anti- christ kidda...?

And what is god's plan?...he obviously has never had one..that is why evolution had to step it....mouthing sludge like that impresses no one with a little discernment...try and be coherent...it helps!

No! it is not your fault that seemingly many Christians have more hate and ignorance then they have a right to...but the religion encourages it and they encourage one and other...simple like so!

'Not all Christians have the same old "Christian values" whatever they are'

No indeed not...maybe that is why there is so much grief and bitterness in the world...no one wants to turn the other cheek anymore...and when they do they bleat intolerance to anyone in earshot!

'If I say I believe being gay is a sin, then all of a sudden I'm an intolerable, bigot that hates people simply because of their sexual preference.'

Everyone has a right to their own sexual orientation...but Christians tend to persecute them for it...that is what is intolerable.

'Or if I say I'm against abortion then I'm a far right Christian conservative right wing nut.'

Only women have the right to decide ...without interference and guilt trips from pompous male zombies spouting hatred with religious threats and violence...

Maybe someone should get over their religious delusion!

'Brew, just remember Jebus lubs you.'

Tell him thanx but no thanx...I have seen what his so called lub can achieve amongst the infected...hatred...bitterness...whining ...ignorance...pride...pompousness...and brutality...in short a mental meltdown!
With a very inhuman twist in the tail!

I am sure there are good Christians...maybe you are one...unfortunately the religion does not support them or you in their goodness!

feeno said...

Brew,

I think we interpret the Bible ("book full of wives tales and goat herder wishful thinking"0 a little different. I've never felt like I had carte blanche just because I'm a believer.

I'm holding a dictionary right now, looking up words like bile, compendium and bleat, and you call me pompus and smug?

I hope I didn't hurt your feelings by leaving you out of the end times prophecy. I just didn't see how you (Atheists) were relevant.

Who is he? And who is my anti-christ kidda? Well my dictionary goes from kid to kidnap so I don't know what kidda is. But God is good and the one who wants to thwart his plans is Satan, not the anti-christ, he's just a puppet.

His plan is that all would come to him through his Son.

I'd respond to your evolution comment but I don't understand that whole paragraph. Sorry.

"No-one wants to turn the other cheek anymore" Do you like that concept?

Do you believe Mother Theresa would've supported religious idiots out in front of clinics screaming obscenities at gays or women planning on having abortions? What is delusional is not realizing that normal Christians find those kind of people as useless as hopefully Atheists find them.

Infected, hatred, bitterness, whining, ignorence and brutality. How did whining make that list?

Your right, there are some good Christians, I'm not sure I'm one, but thanks for that small vote of confidence. But that was my point in my initial post.

I didn't mean to bring the wrath of strangebrew down on me.

P.S. "Goat herder wishful thinking" That was pretty good.

Peace out, feeno

strangebrew said...

Hi feeno,

'I think we interpret the Bible... a little different.'

Not only between atheist & believer but also between believer & believer!

In fact the differences between believer & believer is taken to extremes...ostracism...suspicion...hatred...each declaring their version perfect and each defending it unto death!

For a delusion claiming the basic same nonsense it really is quite pathetic!

If god actually existed then
he must be one extremely embarrassed deity, a dozen cults all purportedly worshiping his scrawny ass, and fighting each other over the privilege.

'I've never felt like I had carte blanche just because I'm a believer'

Glad to hear it, there are plenty in the jeebus ignorant that do!

'I'm holding a dictionary right now, looking up words like bile, compendium and bleat, and you call me pompus and smug?'

I am not responsible for your lack of education in the English language!
Glad to hear you have a dictionary though...it has far better use then a bible...and it at least shows you are willing to learn, now if you just take a little care in spelling, things will improve kidda!

'I hope I didn't hurt your feelings by leaving you out of the end times prophecy.'

Not at all, that should be a party exclusively for the challenged in society, besides I am busy that night and can't make it!

'I just didn't see how you (Atheists) were relevant.'

No indeed we are used to being irreverent in theists eyes :-)

But I am sure the barking have other plans for folks they cannot frighten threaten or conjole...they can for example preach them to death!

'Well my dictionary goes from kid to kidnap so I don't know what kidda is.'

Colloquial English, street slang from the North of England!
It means friend, brother, close acquaintance, no offense intended!

'But God is good and the one who wants to thwart his plans is Satan'

But god is omnipotent is he not, all powerful, all singing, all dancing, all glorious, and he gets grief from a ex-employee, useless jerk should wake up a tad...!
Actually have you seen the Epicurus verse...?
For your boredom I shall transfer to print here...

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Say's it all really!
But I suspect you might disagree!

Hope the christians are justly proud of themselves seeing as they invented Satan to start with...

Well actually they didn't...they stole the concept from a much earlier religion from the middle east...Babylonian, Assyrian, Sumarian, Mesopotamian even Canaanite..all had versions of a evil spirit or bad omen bringer.

The Xians took that aspect and imposed the image of Western Pagan god Hern, Cernunnos, The green man, The horned one, depending on tribal title preference, complete with horns, which represented a wonderful full pointed stag originally but which the church changed into representing a smelly randy goat, go figure! and hoped that would make it an evil bogey critter!

Simply because they had to try and replace a popular god of the people...Cernunnos... with an unpopular one from somewhere across the sea and far away!
Jeebus was an import...and not that popular!

Best way was character assassination after all tis what xians do best!

Only the very hard of thinking or the naive accept it as a real devil.
If you hate the concept of evil fine, but when you hate the image then that is exactly what the early church hoped, well done, they suckered you!

Cernunnos is the god of spring and rebirth...of crops and fertility...he is a benevolent god..and a lot more loving then the xian sad excuse for one!

'not the anti-christ, he's just a puppet'

This is what I mean about interpretation, other xians prefer to cast him actually as the devil, the antithesis of Christ.

Before xians start trying to evangelize to atheists, if they are really that deluded, maybe it would be fair comment for them to get their collective story synchronized, incoherency is the devils tool ;-)
No one can take all the different versions seriously, because xians don't.

'His plan is that all would come to him through his Son.'

User...that is not a plan that is a cop out!

'I'd respond to your evolution comment but I don't understand that whole paragraph. Sorry.'

(And what is god's plan?)
Because it seems he obviously has never had one for planet Earth..that is why evolution had to step in and develop life as we know it, obviously god could not be bothered, good job Evolution was around to do the serious business, otherwise you would be not here to 'praise de lawd!'

'"No-one wants to turn the other cheek anymore" Do you like that concept?'

It was a metaphor for an older wiser value of Christianity...before clones got all holier then thou and started to make up more inane crap about morals and thou shalt not do this and thou shalt not do that and thou shalt not do the other, then took scripture and twisted it to fit their own particular prejudice.

I am not complaining about obvious antisocial nonsense like rape or murder or stealing or coveting thy neighbors arse etc, but the vile and bigoted trash for brains condemnation of folks for their sexual preference, and the implicit threat of violence if things do not go the xian way!

And no... I am sure Mother Theresa would not have supported religious idiots out in front of clinics that scream obscenities at gays or women planning on having abortions!

At least we agree on something tangible!

'What is delusional is not realizing that normal Christians find those kind of people as useless as hopefully Atheists find them'

Yes but the only people that these brain dead moronic thugs might listen to are other folks that believe the same fairy story as they purport to do!
One thing is for sure they will not listen to secular law authorities so it is extremely unlikely that they would take notice of a supposedly hell bound atheist!

'Infected, hatred, bitterness, whining, ignorence and brutality. How did whining make that list?'

Xians whine when they cannot get their delusion accepted as fact.
Xians whine when Atheists wish to state a point on a bus advertisement for example.
Xians whine when Atheistic signs are in a public place.
Xians whine when ID nonsense is refused entry to a science class.
Xians whine when Creationism is rejected for reality.
Xians whine that they are suffering intolerance in society.
Xians whine..it is their default setting...and one reason the Romans got peeved at them and threw them to the lions....

Which actually did not happen quite the way as the xians would like everyone to believe!

There is no tangible evidence to support the xian claims of poor down trodden little soldiers for jeebus being discriminated against in Rome.
There was no hatred of their god or jeebus from the Roman authorities, because to them one god more or less was not an issue, they were liberal that way, what the Romans did not dig was Xians whining about intolerance when it was they that did not tolerate anyone else.
I quite understand the Roman sentiment!

'I didn't mean to bring the wrath of strangebrew down on me.'

You ain't seen nothing yet :-)

'P.S. "Goat herder wishful thinking" That was pretty good.'

Pretty damn accurate actually! ;-)

feeno said...

'Brew

W'sup kidda?
Yes, believers unfortunately interpret the Bible differently and yes to the point of ostracism, suspicion and hate. But God is not embarrassed by that, saddened probably.

To all the nuns, priests and teachers from Sacred Heart Jr. High and Stephen T. Badin H.S. (A Catholic H.S.) I apologize for my lack of spelling and knowledge of the English language. I know you taught me better.

And last night when I wrote you I didn't have spell check, now I do. Hope this is better.

Is God able to permit evil.......... Believe it or not God respects your right to chose so much, he let's us make up our own minds about things. And if evil is what we want to practice, he allows it. We call that free will.

Jesus was mentioned long before Christians were around. (Gen 3:15)

And as far as other god's, yeah, I've read about a lot of different ones in the story of Moses,
Pharaoh and the plagues. Those are very interesting studies.

Jesus wasn't that popular. He probably wasn't, he only had 12 followers. But they've come along way.

Satan is the dragon and the anti-christ and false prophet will be raised up by him. One will be a political power and the other a religious power. Kinda like a satanic trinity?

His plan that all would come to him through his Son is a "cop out" I'm having a hard time responding to this, but it is what it is.

Evolution: Feb 12 was Darwin's B-Day. And I was reading some "fundie literature" that Darwin said as we find more fossil records the gaps will fill themselves in. But as we find more fossils the gaps are getting bigger and bigger. You do know there are Atheists out there that do believe in some kind of an intelligent designer. Christians aren't the only ones who don't agree on certain issues.

I wish I could go back to that older, wiser value of Christianity.

Are there mobs of rough Christians running around the streets of England threatening anyone who dares to be gay? Where is this coming from?

I feel pretty good about ourselves being able to agree about Mother Theresa. Good job Kidda.

I don't have a problem with obeying my Govt. (Rom. 13:1-7)

You, have never whined about the 10 commandments being displayed or a manger scene? We ain't the only whiners.

I don't think you would really want to throw anyone to the Lions, even if they were a bit "whiney"

Hope you have a great day. Talk to you soon. Peace out, feeno

strangebrew said...

Hi feeno,

'W'sup kidda?'

Yep ya getting the hang of it kidda!

'believers unfortunately interpret the Bible differently...
But God is not embarrassed by that, saddened probably.'

Nope don't buy it...deities don't get saddened they get even...
The only reason it happens is because god is absent...he is not in the detail he is only the myth that encourages the nonsense.

I know that certainly in England a Catholic education is usually the best in the public school result tables...just they tend to require a modicum of jeebus worship before during and after school time!

'Hope this is better'

Yes of course it is...ignore me...everyone makes mistakes...especially on a forum where you cannot edit the post after clicking the send button!

'Believe it or not God respects your right to chose so much, he let's us make up our own minds about things. And if evil is what we want to practice, he allows it. We call that free will.'

No that is not free will that is a wriggle feature of the Christian religion...

It allows for evil people to do evil things and christian blushes are spared by the 'free will' catchism.

According to the literature...God cares for his flock...so why does he allow evil....he has all the tools apparently just chooses to exercise a free will himself and allow evil to directly affect the folks he supposedly loves...weird way to go about caring if you allow a tragedy which takes an innocent child and breaks the hearts of the parents for many years afterward...who might themselves be the best examples a christian philosophy can deliver...it is not a logic that sits well in a logical Universe!
Unless of course there is no such thing as god...then all the pieces resolve themselves and a sense can be made of the situation.

'Jesus was mentioned long before Christians were around. (Gen 3:15)'

"Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy: These first five books of the Bible are known as the "Pentateuch", and tradition ascribes these books to have been written by Moses. This is highly unlikely, since these books tell of the death of Moses (Deuteronomy 34:5)! In reality, these books are actually anonymous and composite works. In these books are two and different accounts of Creation, of the "flood", and of the plagues of Egypt. Scholars have overwhelming evidence that Genesis was compiled from several different sources. They also feel that Exodus and Leviticus were written by members of the priesthood in the 5th or 6th century BC."

So Genesis is of uncertain heritage...and if...as the text mentions...that actually the bulk of the "Pentateuch" was a post publication it is not surprising a certain ambiguity can creep in...

The research points to a tomb inscription naming Jesus as a verifiable possibility...but even that is dubious...earlier references are only typically vague predictions, prophecies and fore casts so beloved of the time...most that Russel Grant would not lose any sleep over...(Russel Grant...Brit popular media Astrologer)

There is no verifiable proof of a named Jesus before the first century unfortunately!...

'And as far as other god's, yeah, I've read about a lot of different ones in the story of Moses,
Pharaoh and the plagues. Those are very interesting studies.'

Yes they are...you see the roots and branches of Christianity there...and the basis of a vast majority of the bible..written well before Moses got his biro out!...the crucifixion, the flood, the garden of eden all are there in different forms from different religions...Christianity just plagiarized the format and several important events...fascinating really...but holy...nope 'fraid not just religious make believe!

'Jesus wasn't that popular. He probably wasn't, he only had 12 followers. But they've come along way.'

The growth of Christianity is another fascinating study...but it grew not out of truth of the premise...more out of political expediency amongst other pressures in ancient history...

'Satan is the dragon and the anti-christ and false prophet will be raised up by him. One will be a political power and the other a religious power. Kinda like a satanic trinity?'

Cool!

'His plan that all would come to him through his Son is a "cop out" I'm having a hard time responding to this, but it is what it is.'

Yep a cop out...if god is so powerful he does not require a go between!

" that Darwin said as we find more fossil records the gaps will fill themselves in.'

They are...do not listen to fundamentalist dingbats they are certifiable rogues hustlers and liars!

'But as we find more fossils the gaps are getting bigger and bigger.'

Read any good Paleontology book not written by a creationist or ID purveyor and you will find the truth...check any University Paleontology site the story is the same...but do not trust Creationists or IDiots...I say that not as an atheist but as a blog 'friend'...
Evolution is not the enemy of religion...fundamentalist fools are...but even so Evolution is the truth...simple like so!

'You do know there are Atheists out there that do believe in some kind of an intelligent designer. Christians aren't the only ones who don't agree on certain issues.'

Nope these guys are not Atheists they are Creationists trading under the ID banner.
Atheists do not believe in any god...these charlatans call god an Intelligend Designer...this is to try and fool secular institutions to allow their 'science' in to the science classroom...it is a con it is creationism...not science... they practice!

'I wish I could go back to that older, wiser value of Christianity.'

Might save a few lives!

'Are there mobs of rough Christians running around the streets of England threatening anyone who dares to be gay? Where is this coming from?'

Yes and fundamentalism!...and bigotry above and beyond!

'I feel pretty good about ourselves being able to agree about Mother Theresa. Good job Kidda.'

Why not?at least she practiced that older, wiser value of Christianity

'I don't have a problem with obeying my Govt. (Rom. 13:1-7)'

Maybe not but right wing jeebus lovers believe in very different things!

'You, have never whined about the 10 commandments being displayed or a manger scene?'

Nope never...if I do not agree with such a nonsense I do not have to look at it...simple

'We ain't the only whiners.'

But are by far the loudest ;-)

'I don't think you would really want to throw anyone to the Lions, even if they were a bit "whiney"'

Not me...but some folk are different that way!


Blessed be feeno!

Anthony said...

Evolution is not the enemy of religion...fundamentalist fools are...but even so Evolution is the truth...simple like so!

True dat!

Feeno, take it from one who was a young-earther until about a year and a half ago, creationists do not have any evidence, but evolution on the other hand, it's simply overwhelming.

feeno said...

'Brew

Your awesome, thanks for the dialogue. If this was a MMA/UFC fight it would be time for me to tap out.

I'm gonna go train for our next encounter. Will be looking forward to your zeal and wit.

Peace out, feeno


Anthony,

Thanks for the comments. I notice your from N. KY. I live in the 'burbs of the 'Nati

late, feeno

DrMark said...

Anthony,

What do you think is the most "simply overwhelming" evidence for evolution?

Anthony said...

What do you think is the most "simply overwhelming" evidence for evolution?

DrMark, what are your thoughts on the subject? I am 42 and was a young earth creationist most of my life and was a big advocate of intelligent design since the 90s. Since I am pressed for time and would rather you do the homework let me point you to 4 resources, two are by evangelicals and all by professing Christians:

Coming to Peace with Science: Bridging the Worlds Between Faith and Biology by Darrel Falk. This was the book that convinced me that the evidence really did support biological evolution.

Paradigms on Pilgrimage: Creationism, Paleontology and Biblical Interpretation by J. Godfrey Stephen and R. Smith Christopher. Very good book that confirmed in the area of paleontology what Falk showed in biology.

Evolution Controversy, The: A Survey of Competing Theories by Thomas B. Fowler and Daniel Kuebler. Very good survey of the different views. The authors are pretty objective and fairly present the different views. As far as I could tell the authors do not necessarily assume that evolution is correct but they do give it credence as the viewpoint of the scientific community and they do hold the different creationists views to the fire.

Finding Darwin's God: A Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution by Kenneth Miller. When I first became an evolutionist I was open to find a way to wed it with intelligent design, Miller just blew that out of the water.

DrMark, if you are some type of creationist I would challenge you to read these four books, none of them are atheists or agnostics, all profess Christianity. I would be wiling to bet that if you are objective and open minded you will say the same thing that I did - that the evidence for evolution is "simply overwhelming."

DrMark said...

Anthony,

I was not asking what others thought. Since you had reached a conclusion that the evidence is "simply overwhelming, I was simply asking what YOU think is the single most "simply overwhelming" evidence. Simple and overwhelming.

DrMark said...

Anthony,

Also, you might enjoy Species of Origins: America's Search for a Creation Story. It is generally pro-evolution in its conclusions. It is an interesting read about the various threads of the search. I have had a chance to communicate via his university with oneof the authors. I don't agree with the majrity of the book; but I think someone like you might enjoy it, so I am just passing that along to you.

Anthony said...

DrMark,

Thanks for the recommendation of the "Species of Origins" book, actually I do have it and Giberson's other work "Saving Darwin" in my library. I haven't gotten around to reading them yet, but will eventually.

On the issue of the evidence for evolution I do not think there is a "single" piece of evidence that makes it overwhelming, it is the accumulated effect of the shear amount of it that makes it overwhelming. I will get back with you in a day or so on what specific lines of evidence that convinced me personally that evolution was correct.

That being said, please answer my question to you: what are you thoughts on the subject (and secondly) why do you hold them?

DrMark said...

As a biochemist, molecular biology began to play a significant role in my view on diversity and unity in life forms. I can easily state the simply overwhelming: the numerous observations of codependence in function and machination - such as complex enzyme systems necessary for DNA continuance which are dependent upon DNA for their continuance. Even Darwin stated that such occurences on a macro-level would seriously assault his theories and now we see tham not only on a macro-level but intra- and sub-cellular. I have read the efforts to come up with explanations and frankly, they are embarrasing in assumptive approach - not too pretty for science. So, I had to be honest and move from my original default scientist stance to an ID position due to those observations along with many others; but as a scientist, that became my most "simply overwhelming." I cannot accept that one computer said to another, "Don't be ridiculous. We weren't made by humans."

Origin of Species is good. I thought Saving Darwin was pretty stale stuff.

Anthony said...

DrMark,

You say you are a biochemist by profession. That is fine, I am not a scientist but I can think and reason through things. Duane Gish was a biochemist and a young earth creationist so having some type of scientific credential doesn't guarantee anything.

From what I read of your post I would say that you sound a lot like Michael Behe and to be honest what you appear to be saying is that since you cannot find a naturalistic explanation for a certain structure then God most have done it. Is this not the God of the gaps problem?

As a side note my rejection of Christianity wasn't based solely on evolution, the major problems with the historicity of the Bible and associated issues left me in a crisis of faith that resulted in a rejection of that faith. So, if you are wanting to reject biological evolution because of the Bible or Christianity there are more to the issues than just trying to explain the evolution of a specific biological structure or interactions between structures.

Anthony said...

I notice your from N. KY. I live in the 'burbs of the 'Nati

Hey Feeno that's cool that you live in my neighborhood. I was born and raised in Cincinnati and work downtown but live in Crescent Springs. Shoot me an email sometime (it's on my profile) and maybe we (you, me and our hot spouses) can do a happy hour.

Anonymous said...

DrMark,
if you really are a biochemist, do you believe in a literal adam?
Remember Jesus did because he referenced him, remember paul did because he referenced him and even founded his theology of Jesus sacrifice as a redemption for the sin of one man.

If there was no adam, both God and Paul were wrong. If there was an adam, show how geneological evidence demonstrating that our common female ancestor goes back as far as 200,000 years and our common male ancestor only goes back 60,000 does not DISCONFIRM a literal adam and eve, then reconcile where the other hominids came from, then reconcile where cro magnon "religion" came from and why its not similar at all with anything in the bible, and then reconcile where the first city came from in the bible by comparing it to archeology and paleontology.

and then after you are finished saying that the bible can't be taken literally but is all metaphor, then draw the line for me between metaphor and reality and explain to me why and how much I should trust metaphor, and then explain to me why Jesus or Paul didn't mention anything about metaphor regarding Adam.

I don't believe you are a real doctor or much of a biochemist either. Your analytical skills, at least in this case, are extremely poor, and I assume you use the same reasoning schemes in the rest of your life as well.

it is irrelevant what anyone thinks is the most compelling evidence for evolution. What is relevant is that your source of information is of demonstrably poor quality.

Stay tuned and you'll see what I mean as I continue my adventures in IDQ marching on to knock down romans 5.