Dealing With More Christian Heuristics.
In a recent comment a Christian Guest said the following.
You know why some of your friends can't see God. How do you know? Would they agree with you?
- generally it comes down to either not wanting to,
So if they don't want to, but they really believe they will be punished by experiencing the worst thing ever after they die, then they are crazy aren't they?
Its like they are headed into a burning building but don't believe they will get burned right? Are they crazy, or do they just not believe anything will happen?
In the case of the burning building, we can demonstrate that something will happen. We can demonstrate that they are crazy and should be restrained from harming themselves. In the case of God, we can't.
Can a person be blamed for not believing in something?
Where is the tipping point between a simple agreement to accept and a belief? A belief is an unconscious commitment to an idea. A belief is something that you can't change consciously. It is an unconscious decision. But it will be demonstrated by the action of the person.
- or insisting that if God doesn't follow their rules, he doesn't exist.
What are Gods Rules?
What are your friends Rules?
More importantly, what are YOUR rules?
What is the difference in those rules? How many of those rules match up with each other? What is the overlap? I'll bet a lot of the compassionate ones do and a lot of the barbaric ones do not.
Is it GODS rule to blame people for not believing?
Is it YOUR rule to blame people for not believing?
Is it GODS rule to blame people for not understanding?
Is it YOUR rule to blame people for not understanding?
What are GODS responsibilities to get people to believe?
What are YOUR responsibilities if you want someone to believe anything?
What are GODS responsibilities to get people to understand?
What are YOUR responsibilities to get someone to understand something?
Is it GODS rule that he will make defective products?
Is it YOUR rule that you will make defective products?
How do your Rules match up with Gods?
What are the differences? How does the percentage of how many of your rules match gods compare with how many of your friends rules match Gods?
If he has no responsibility, and he understands us better than anyone, what was the point in making us at all? What is the point of making defective products? So that they can NOT PERFORM the actions that they are NOT ABLE to perform because they are defective?
Ask yourself why is it that Microsoft outperforms Christianity in the adoption of its product,
or electric light bulbs or blood donation, or chemotherapy or vaccinations. Its because by way of experience, people make the commitment unconsciously that it is the right thing to do.
If god can't get better than 35% adoption rate over 2000 years for his product, its his own fault.
But thats what we would expect if the hype doesn't match the experience. If the experience matched the Hype, you'd see as many Christians as Automobiles.
- All I can do is testify that for me, it's obvious;
I can see the horse in the clouds. Can you?
I believe that it has all the characteristics of a real horse, but do you?
I will walk into that burning building (rhetorically speaking) because I don't believe anything will happen, will you?
Why would I do that?
Why do you believe and the other 65% of the world doesn't?
If its true, why are you in the minority worldwide in your belief in the product of Christianity? If it represents the real world, why do so many people disregard it?
Maybe they've cross-checked it with other data and discovered irreconcilable discrepancies?
Or maybe 65% of the world is Crazy and you aren't?
I do know why some of my friends can't see God;
- generally it comes down to either not wanting to,
- or insisting that if God doesn't follow their rules, he doesn't exist.
- All I can do is testify that for me, it's obvious...
You know why some of your friends can't see God. How do you know? Would they agree with you?
- generally it comes down to either not wanting to,
So if they don't want to, but they really believe they will be punished by experiencing the worst thing ever after they die, then they are crazy aren't they?
Its like they are headed into a burning building but don't believe they will get burned right? Are they crazy, or do they just not believe anything will happen?
In the case of the burning building, we can demonstrate that something will happen. We can demonstrate that they are crazy and should be restrained from harming themselves. In the case of God, we can't.
Can a person be blamed for not believing in something?
Where is the tipping point between a simple agreement to accept and a belief? A belief is an unconscious commitment to an idea. A belief is something that you can't change consciously. It is an unconscious decision. But it will be demonstrated by the action of the person.
- or insisting that if God doesn't follow their rules, he doesn't exist.
What are Gods Rules?
What are your friends Rules?
More importantly, what are YOUR rules?
What is the difference in those rules? How many of those rules match up with each other? What is the overlap? I'll bet a lot of the compassionate ones do and a lot of the barbaric ones do not.
Is it GODS rule to blame people for not believing?
Is it YOUR rule to blame people for not believing?
Is it GODS rule to blame people for not understanding?
Is it YOUR rule to blame people for not understanding?
What are GODS responsibilities to get people to believe?
What are YOUR responsibilities if you want someone to believe anything?
What are GODS responsibilities to get people to understand?
What are YOUR responsibilities to get someone to understand something?
Is it GODS rule that he will make defective products?
Is it YOUR rule that you will make defective products?
How do your Rules match up with Gods?
What are the differences? How does the percentage of how many of your rules match gods compare with how many of your friends rules match Gods?
If he has no responsibility, and he understands us better than anyone, what was the point in making us at all? What is the point of making defective products? So that they can NOT PERFORM the actions that they are NOT ABLE to perform because they are defective?
Ask yourself why is it that Microsoft outperforms Christianity in the adoption of its product,
or electric light bulbs or blood donation, or chemotherapy or vaccinations. Its because by way of experience, people make the commitment unconsciously that it is the right thing to do.
If god can't get better than 35% adoption rate over 2000 years for his product, its his own fault.
But thats what we would expect if the hype doesn't match the experience. If the experience matched the Hype, you'd see as many Christians as Automobiles.
- All I can do is testify that for me, it's obvious;
I can see the horse in the clouds. Can you?
I believe that it has all the characteristics of a real horse, but do you?
I will walk into that burning building (rhetorically speaking) because I don't believe anything will happen, will you?
Why would I do that?
Why do you believe and the other 65% of the world doesn't?
If its true, why are you in the minority worldwide in your belief in the product of Christianity? If it represents the real world, why do so many people disregard it?
Maybe they've cross-checked it with other data and discovered irreconcilable discrepancies?
Or maybe 65% of the world is Crazy and you aren't?
35 comments:
Good post, Lee. For God's sake, I'd have given you an extra mark had you included a few apostrophes.
Wow is refusing to believe without evidence -just because- wrong?
God doesn't have to follow rules like, being consistent with himself and with reality?
Like making unambiguous manifestations, making good of his promises of poison immunity and amputee's regenerations, etc?
If the religious leaders of Jesus' time did not believe in God when He was right before their eyes, then I can understand why someone hurt in or by the church would not believe in God either.
However, the unbeliever of the past and present will share the same fate.
for more information see my website at www.help-for-hurting-pastors.com.
God Bless you.
Lee,
It's my opinion that belief is a choice. Some beliefs may be more subconscious than others, but they are choices at some level. And, when confronted with the issue, there is a choice to either "hold 'em or fold 'em."
Where's your 65% figure come from?
About following rules: just poke around this blog for a few minutes, and you'll find posts that say something to the effect of, "If God existed, he'd do..." Some people set up artificial rules about what God must be like. When they can't find a God who fits those, they say that God doesn't exist. It's an old battle (Dawkins tries to avoid dealing with it in "The God Delusion"), but it's true for many people. But, perhaps not all. In one case, a friend decided that God couldn't exist because the man messed up his marriage. It didn't make sense, but that was his logic. I'm not about to presume that everyone has the same issues, I was just mentioning a couple.
"Can a person be blamed for not believing in something?"
Apparently so, according to the Bible. Romans 1 is a classic passage. Jesus pointed out that to those who don't want to believe, no amount of signs and wonders will change their mind.
"What are YOUR rules?" I try to use both logic and experience to evaluate things. I try hard not to impose my own preconceptions on either the Bible or on anything else. It's been my job for over 20 years to evaluate evidence, and I'm pretty good at it. If I come across new information that tips the scale the other way, I change my mind.
Ultimately, belief is a choice based upon your assessment of whatever information you have.
"If the religious leaders of Jesus' time did not believe in God when He was right before their eyes, then I can understand why someone hurt in or by the church would not believe in God either.
However, the unbeliever of the past and present will share the same fate.
for more information see my website at www.help-for-hurting-pastors.com.
God Bless you."
There it is, the essence of Christianity, threats. The "good news" is simply threats, psychological terrorism. What's really shameful is that its used:
1. by preachers to earn a living;
2. and its used on children, to scare them into "the faith".
Ashwan,
Could it be that you actually mean 'Faith' is a choice instead of belief?
Some people set up artificial rules about what God must be like. When they can't find a God who fits those, they say that God doesn't exist.
As a being who supposedly created reason, God should act in a reasonable fashion. When God, by his on definition, fails to act in a manner in which most everyone would consider reasonable in every other domain, it casts significant doubt on his existence.
In one case, a friend decided that God couldn't exist because the man messed up his marriage. It didn't make sense, but that was his logic.
This is because religions, such as Christianity, promote the idea that God is an active agent in the universe, despite the lack of any clear evidence to the support it. There is just as much 'evidence' that God healed a love one though prayer as there is that God messed up your friends marriage.
(God is depicted doing both in the Bible.)
As such, I'm not really surprised when Christians take this sort of position, as it's just as non-sensical as the idea that God answers prayer.
"Can a person be blamed for not believing in something?"
Apparently so, according to the Bible. Romans 1 is a classic passage. Jesus pointed out that to those who don't want to believe, no amount of signs and wonders will change their mind.
We know what the Bible says. You seem to have missed the question, which appears to be, "Is it reasonable for people to be blamed for not believing in something?"
Apparently, as long as the Bible says people can be blamed, this is all the information you need.
I try hard not to impose my own preconceptions on either the Bible or on anything else. It's been my job for over 20 years to evaluate evidence, and I'm pretty good at it. If I come across new information that tips the scale the other way, I change my mind.
Precisely.
Our beliefs are based on interpretation of evidence, which is based on prior evidence and interpretation, etc. You change your mind based on new information, not by force of will.
That an all knowing and all powerful God would decide to punish someone due to misinterpretation of unclear or missing information doesn't seem very reasonable. Instead, it seems like an idea created by an ancient culture who was trying to make sense out of the world they lived in with little to no knowledge of how anything worked.
Ultimately, belief is a choice based upon your assessment of whatever information you have.
Again, I think your talking about 'faith' not belief.
ahswan >> It's my opinion that belief is a choice.
Sure, we can choose to believe anything we want, but we can't simply force any particular belief.
Google for “doxastic voluntarism”, and you'll find more about this. I've only started to research this, after doing quite a bit of personal reflection on the nature of beliefs.
Here's a few to get you started:
http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/pascals-wager/we-cannot-choose-our-beliefs/
http://www.iep.utm.edu/d/doxa-vol.htm
ahswan >> Jesus pointed out that to those who don't want to believe, no amount of signs and wonders will change their mind.
Does that really ring true with you? Are there really no signs or wonders that would change a person's mind?
Personally, I don't know. I've never seen a sign or wonder.
ahswan >> Ultimately, belief is a choice based upon your assessment of whatever information you have.
And when that information is suspect or not compelling, shouldn't we hold off on strong beliefs?
HI guys! I have been enjoying your conversation!
”We know what the Bible says. You seem to have missed the question, which appears to be, "Is it reasonable for people to be blamed for not believing in something?"”
If you do know your Bible (in particular Romans 1, as mentioned) then you will know that everybody knows in their hearts about God and what he seeks from them (Romans 1:32, c.f. Rom 2:14-16).
Of course you can say this is the essence of Christianity (threats etc), but it is not. The essence is that even though we knowingly turn away from God, he still loves us and wants a relationship with us. So much so that he became a part of creation and died for creation. That is the essence of Christianity.
”As a being who supposedly created reason, God should act in a reasonable fashion. When God, by his on definition, fails to act in a manner in which most everyone would consider reasonable in every other domain, it casts significant doubt on his existence.”
So God, who created us (and reason) has to act in a way that us (created man) consider reasonable? Sounds like you want the God who made us to follow our rules! It also sounds like we have become the judge as to what is or is not reasonable! Perhaps, just perhaps, the God who created us gave us less brains than he has and what we consider reasonable is not!
ahswan wrote: “Apparently so, according to the Bible. Romans 1 is a classic passage. Jesus pointed out that to those who don't want to believe, no amount of signs and wonders will change their mind.”
The Gospels make passing mention of a great number of signs and wonders the vast majority of which go undescribed in any detail whatsoever. Those who wished to believe believed and those who didn’t didn’t. So what was the logic in performing the magic in the first place? It all seems so meretricious a la Sai Baba.
Dave >> The essence is that even though we knowingly turn away from God, he still loves us and wants a relationship with us.
Awww, isn't that sweet.
Now, please remind us what happens if we're a little reluctant to enter into this relationship, due to the invisible nature of this Being? What if some people decline this relationship due to a lack of belief, stemming from the common occurrence in history of men fabricating religions?
I can't speak for you, but the common Christian answer is such people are sent to hell.
Now, I have three lovely daughters, and I have a great relationship with them. I know them, and they know me. Why is that? Because I show myself to them. I walk in their rooms and say "Good morning! How'd you sleep last night?" We talk, play, and laugh together. I nurture them by directly interacting in their lives.
I do not hide from them from birth, and then when they're older, hide in the bushes down the street and whisper, "My children, if you love me, come find me. If you don't, I will likewise reject you. Oh, and I'll also torture you." If I did, I hope someone would arrest me and put me on medication, because I would really need some help.
I terrifies me to look at the Christian concept of God and find guidelines for being a good father. I've honestly tried; it's not working.
Dave >> So God, who created us (and reason) has to act in a way that us (created man) consider reasonable? Sounds like you want the God who made us to follow our rules!
Not at all! God can do whatever He wants, just by sheer might.
It's the stories that are being judged here. It's the stories that must be reasonable.
We truly know so precious little about this world and our place in it. But we know beyond a shadow of a doubt just how easy it is for men to create stories about their gods, and create scriptures, and tell of miracles and fantastic stories, and claim revelation, and all the proper ingredients for creating a following and a religion. It's still going on today, before our very eyes.
Now, sure, maybe the Christian religion is the one true religion. But it sure has a lot in common with all the made-up ones.
If you do know your Bible (in particular Romans 1, as mentioned) then you will know that everybody knows in their hearts about God and what he seeks from them
Which, naturally, is why most of the world's population does not believe in Christianity.
I'm sorry, but Romans 1 is nonsense. Non-Christians simply do not think Christianity is true. If they did, they wouldn't be non-Christians.
Non-A is NEVER A.
Hey Jim! I have three kids (but only two are daughters!) so I appreciate your example. Just a few things I wanted to say about your comments, if I may.
Yes, man does appear to make up religions, and the religion of Christianity has fallen into many traps, just like every other religion. But my faith is not a religion, rather a relationship with my heavenly Father through Jesus. I believe that God has made it abundantly clear to all of us that he is here (Romans 1:20) and wants to know us. No, he does not force us to come to him, but he has revealed himself to everyone. Research suggests that children naturally believe there is a God. Our inner moral compass, the world wide desire to reach God (through religion), the way people turn to God in despair, anger, grief... the fact that God enters history as a man, dies, rises again (witnessed by more than 500 people at one time)...I do not think God has hidden himself. I believe if you truly seek him you will find him!
With regards to what happens to those who do not enter into this relationship with God, what would you have God do? Force people to be his sons and daughters? I know that with my kids that as they grow older then more and more of our relationship is on their terms as well as mine. They are growing to independence, and perhaps one day (I hope they won’t), they might choose to have nothing to do with me. This may or may not be my fault. With God and our relationship with him, if we choose to turn away then it is our error, not his. Now I do not know what hell looks like, but it seems to me that those who choose (through the freedom God has lovingly given them) to not have a relationship with God, will indeed have no relationship with God.
Phillip, Romans 1 is not saying that Christianity has been revealed to all people, but rather that a simple knowledge of God has. I believe there was a request earlier as to where the figure 65% came from. There was no answer. Another figure that is interesting is that it is believed that Atheists make up somewhere between 5-10% of people. Perhaps you might apply your logic to that figure? :-)
If you do know your Bible (in particular Romans 1, as mentioned) then you will know that everybody knows in their hearts about God and what he seeks from them (Romans 1:32, c.f. Rom 2:14-16).
To clarify, I do not automatically consider a statement true because it can be found in the Bible.
So God, who created us (and reason) has to act in a way that [we] (created man) consider reasonable? Sounds like you want the God who made us to follow our rules!
Good question! Despite being a perfect, all knowing, all powerful being, why does God act so much like us? Why does he want what we want? Why does he value what we value?
The only true God is jealous of other Gods that do not exist. Despite being omniscient, God makes a series of decisions which are ineffective, such as wiping out nearly all human life with a flood as an answer to the problem of human evil. God only decides to treat people people equally 400 years after having a chosen people' for who he demand and helps to genocide as a tribal protector.
It also sounds like we have become the judge as to what is or is not reasonable!
When did we stop being the judge of what is or is not reasonable? I guess I didn't get the memo.
If we are to make choices, we must make decide what is reasonable and what is not reasonable. Otherwise, how do you propose we decide if anything exists or not?
Perhaps, just perhaps, the God who created us gave us less brains than he has and what we consider reasonable is not!
And you'd consider this a reasonable course of action for a God who wants us to believe he is rational and has a plan for our lives?
Then all bets are off. God could just as well be evil instead of good or we could be living in a matrix like existence, as claimed by Islam. You'd have know way of knowing.
Hi Scott! I never assumed that you would believe any statement in the Bible. My comment came from the context of the conversation where people claimed to know what the Bible said. I was simply giving a more complete picture of what the Bible says.
”Good question! Despite being a perfect, all knowing, all powerful being, why does God act so much like us? Why does he want what we want? Why does he value what we value?”
Who said God acts like us, wants what we want and values what we value? I am saying WE do these things because we are made in HIS image. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of religions, including elements of the church that simply project ourselves onto who we understand God to be, but this only results in distortions of who God is. This is because although we are in his image we are also very lost and confused.
”When did we stop being the judge of what is or is not reasonable? I guess I didn't get the memo.”
Sorry, but shouldn’t we first get a memo telling us we ARE the judges of what is reasonable before we would expect one that says we are not? Nonetheless, because God is reasonable, the memo is called the Bible. I think it makes it very clear that God’s ways are beyond our ways (though I accept the fact that you do not accept every memo you receive as being true or accurate!).
”Otherwise, how do you propose we decide if anything exists or not?”
Not sure what this has to do with anything. I never suggested that we could not decide for ourselves whether or not God exists. This in fact has been my whole point. What I think is reasonable is that God has revealed himself to us, but has not forced us to follow him, or believe in him. You can choose not to believe in him. I think you already have?
HI Ahswan,
the other comments cover most of what I wanted to say.
Real world states can survive cross-checking by evidence in other areas. If what the bible says reflects real world states, then it should survive cross-checking from other areas. This dependence that christians have on pulling everything out of the bible should give you some insight as to how much the real world is reflected by the bible. If the bible reflected real world states, there would be no need to depend on the bible so much. As christians are fond of saying, creation is evidence of God, then why can't Christians use real world examples to support what they say.
Here is where I got that 65% figure, and I was being generous, www.adherents.com
It's my opinion that belief is a choice....
Ultimately, belief is a choice based upon your assessment of whatever information you have.
Oh I see, its your opinion that people can effectively form a belief by making a conscious decision. Try this, consciously decide to believe that I'm a six foot rabbit named Harvey. What you are doing is imposing your opinion as an accurate reflection of the real world. Thats self-centered. The evidence disconfirms it. How certain of your opinion are you? Want to put money on it?
If your opinion accurately reflected real world events, then bayes inference shouldn't work reliably. That certainty you feel is a product of emotional signaling going on in your brain. When it doesn't work right, people believe things that they can't help. That it is not in their interest to believe, things that are not supported by evidence, such as
Being Dead
Its called Cotard Delusion, and is thought to be related to Capgras's Syndrome. Here is a link to some more information and two podcasts with the author of "on Being Certain" from Sharpbrains.com. Look at these in addition to the Doxastic link referenced in a previous comment.
About following rules: just poke around this blog for a few minutes, and you'll find posts that say something to the effect of, "If God existed, he'd do..."
You are avoiding the issue. How well do your values match up with the behavior of God as documented in the Bible. You all are so keen to pull the "feel good" rhetoric out of it but never try to compare your values to how god behaves. You purposefully avoid it because it makes you uncomfortable.
Why don't you list some of those "if god existed, he'd do..." and see if they are reasonable or not or if they reflect your values or not. I'll go so far as to say that "if god existed he'd do....." is wishful thinking, but I will also go so far as to say, if you think you are made in gods image,thats wishful thinking too. If your values aren't reflected by God, then one of you has a jacked up value system, and I'll bet its not you.
Who said God acts like us, wants what we want and values what we value? I am saying WE do these things because we are made in HIS image.
I'm not sure how flipping the association improves your position.
Despite being defined as infinite, all knowing and all seeing being, God seems to act as if he was a human being who is merely a bit smarter and more powerful than we are. I guess, in our case, the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.
For example. God is only omniscient and omnipotent when it suits your purpose, such as fine tuning the constants of the universe. It's unclear why a being who could orchestrate the eventual forming of our planet, 13 billion years later, from the cosmic soup from the big bang, would decide to cause a global flood to kill off nearly all of humanity as a response to our evil behavior, or why he would enjoy the "sweet smell" of animal sacrifice.
Out of all the living creatures God has designed, over 95% of them have gone extinct.
When we prayed to other Gods to give us a bountiful harvest and prosperity, the Christian God told us our prayers were in vain because he is the one, true God. But then he turned right around and claimed, in reality, he himself was responsible - then threatened to cause drought, plagues and misfortune if we did not believe in him. In doing so, God essentially created his own divine protection racket by exploiting our superstitions and lack of knowledge.
I simply cannot reconcile these actions with God's supposed properties. To do so would be wishful thinking.
Sorry, but shouldn’t we first get a memo telling us we ARE the judges of what is reasonable before we would expect one that says we are not?
It appears that you're presuming we lack reason until you receive notice othewise. But, without reason, on what basis can we recognize the memo when it arrives?
What I think is reasonable is that God has revealed himself to us, but has not forced us to follow him, or believe in him. You can choose not to believe in him.
In making this statement, YOU'VE judged God's actions as reasonable. Most likely, because you presuppose the existence of God. But the question we're asking (or at least I'm asking), is why does God's existence seem reasonable? How can you tell if you can't decide what is reasonable?
In other words, if God's definition of what is reasonable is the measuring stick from which you determine the reasonableness of God, isn't your claim that God's actions are reasonable merely a tautology?
>>>Of course you can say this is the essence of Christianity (threats etc), but it is not.
Actually, it is.
>>>>>The essence is that even though we knowingly turn away from God, he still loves us and wants a relationship with us.
Sorry, love and eternal torment do not mix, now matter how much you try to spin it.
>>>>>So God, who created us (and reason) has to act in a way that us (created man) consider reasonable?
You would think so, after all he (as you said) created our reason. Did he screw up?
>>>>>It also sounds like we have become the judge as to what is or is not reasonable!
Its always "us" who is the judge, its only a matter of which "us" you listen to. You choose to listen to clergymen.
>>>>>Perhaps, just perhaps, the God who created us gave us less brains than he has and what we consider reasonable is not!
So why then should we believe anything you say? After all, you too have "less brains".
Davey, no matter how you try to make excuses for Dog the creator, the bible still shows it to be a petty, confused, psychotic monster.
If I wanted to worship that I'd worship Cthulhu. At least I know what he looks like.
Dave, you say, "I believe that God has made it abundantly clear to all of us that he is here (Romans 1:20)"
Then you said, "the fact that God enters history as a man, dies, rises again (witnessed by more than 500 people at one time)...I do not think God has hidden himself."
Do you think that maybe Jesus's death and resurrection was needed to prove God's existence because his creation (Rom. 1:20) wasn't enough for us to believe?
Why would Paul not use the resurrection as the clearest proof of God's existence if it literally happened?
You also said, "Research suggests that children naturally believe there is a God. Our inner moral compass, the world wide desire to reach God (through religion), the way people turn to God in despair, anger, grief".
I don't know what research suggests about a child's natural tendency to believe in ghosts, or on beliefs in general, but just from observation, I don't see much of a difference in the psychological tendency to believe in God or ghosts.
Fact is, we have a tendency to be superstitious. As Stevie Wonder sung, "Superstition ain't the way".
I believe there was a request earlier as to where the figure 65% came from. There was no answer.
The "65%" comes from the estimate that, since there are about 2 billion Christians in the world (~ 33%), the remaining percentage of the world's population, non-Christians, is about 65%.
What they're talking about is that after 2,000 years, God has never had more than 33% of the world convinced that Christianity is true.
your questions don't apply to my perception of God. for example, the answer to "What are God's rules?" is that God doesn't have rules, because if he did, there would be certain things that It can't do, and God can do anything... even impossible things. if It couldn't do impossible things, It wouldn't be God.
i don't believe in God, i know God exists. i "believe" in God the same way i "believe" in oxygen.
What they're talking about is that after 2,000 years, God has never had more than 33% of the world convinced that Christianity is true.
And out of that 30% of bible-believing, Christians, there are thousands of separate sects and denominations that have differing and vast interpretations of scripture and doctrine and how one is supposedly saved, that diminishes it size greatly.
Christians aren't saved -- presumably, only a minuscule percentage, that supposedly interpreted scripture, the right way, is saved from hellfire. Only problem is what christian group has the one true interpretation of scripture?
You would think, an all-knowing, all-powerful god, could do a better job at delivering the crucial laws, commandments, messages and supposed Good News, to everyone, equally and clearly, but most certainly this is not the case.
God’s plan for salvation is tragically flawed, wholly inadequate and morbidly negligent. The number of lost souls, throughout history, is monumentally, mind-blowing.
Kind of makes you think an omniscient, omnipotent god had nothing to do with it -- hmmmmmmm?
--S.
Hi Philip,
I replied earlier than your comment, if you scroll up you can it and some other links related to unintentional belief.
You would think, an all-knowing, all-powerful god, could do a better job at delivering the crucial laws, commandments, messages and supposed Good News, to everyone, equally and clearly...
And the typical Christian answer is that God has indeed clearly revealed himself - and it's through "their" interpretation. I used to argue in that manner and we both have seen Christians on this and other blogs do the same thing.
but most certainly this is not the case.
Most definitely.
"relationship . . . through Jesus"
I have always been curious what this means. A relationship is a two way thing. How does Jesus interact with you? You might 'love' and 'talk to' thru prayer, but really, how does anything come back? Anything that cannot be attributed to nature or other people? No one has ever answered this for me. Yet they keep making claims like this. And why can't one have a relationship with God directly instead of thru Jesus, a person who lived and died 2000 years ago? I don't understand this.
Children are not born with a natural tendency to be religious nor are we naturally superstitious. We are born CURIOUS and with a desparate NEED for answers. We seek answers we can and fill in the gaps with guesses and suppositions until we have the facts to fill those gaps. Religions are things that were made up to explain things that science could not yet explain and we ought to understand that now and be able to be content with leaving the gaps alone as 'we just don't know yet' instead of 'there must be some great master force or entity'.
Goprairie: ...And why can't one have a relationship with God directly instead of thru Jesus, a person who lived and died 2000 years ago? I don't understand this.
N: Even worse, Catholics (the largest group of Christians) often can't even get through to Jesus; they need Mary. And sometimes not even to Mary; for that they need various saints.
Being as they are all dead, It's hard to think any reasonable person would even try.
Lee, I would not believe in Harvey, because that is illogical. As I said, we choose to believe based on information - some information is more reliable than other information, but that's another issue. No matter what we believe, we constantly make choices when we encounter new information. We choose to believe the sun "rises" both because we've learned about the solar system, but also because it's reaffirmed each morning. If one day the sun never appeared, we'd quickly reevaluate our belief.
Christianity is not illogical; that being said, many people - including some Christians - have beliefs that are indeed illogical, because of bad information. But again, Christianity is not illogical. Try reading Simon Greenleaf's "The Testimony of the Evangelists."
Whatever you believe, you've made a choice to do so, and only you are responsible for those decisions.
@ dave
"Yes, man does appear to make up religions, and the religion of Christianity has fallen into many traps, just like every other religion. But my faith is not a religion, rather a relationship with my heavenly Father through Jesus."
mark: Dave I think the point that was bieng made by Jim Turner was if your god truly wants man to find him and understand his word then exactly why is your god hiding from the people he wants to know them? Please answer the question if you will.
Also Dave bieng that your christian god created man with limited intelligence why does an all knowing and power bieng allow other religions to exist when he only wants his children to follow 1 specific religion?
" I believe that God has made it abundantly clear to all of us that he is here (Romans 1:20) and wants to know us. No, he does not force us to come to him, but he has revealed himself to everyone. Research suggests that children naturally believe there is a God."
mark: Dave exactly why do you believe that god has made his presence abundantly clear?
Does the research that suggest children naturally believe in a god suggest that children naturally believe in a christian god?
Do you think your christian god has made things abundantly clear to non christian believers?
N: I read the comments here and want to address a serious and elusive point that is seldom raised in discussions of "God."
By the way, I am not new to the atheism field as I (age 71) have been debating on various forums for a good 20 years, and have been thinking long and hard about religious issues nearly all my life.
The point is the utter lack of a referent for the term "God." Theists and atheists alike employ the noun and talk about "it" as if it actually represented something to assess. It doesn't. Using terms like "creator," "being," "agent," Heavenly Father," "image of God" and a whole lot more are temporary placeholders based on sloppy thinking and unwarranted assumptions.
I will bet that most theists, if not all, started out and still do think of "God" as some sort of human being floating in the sky "up there." It's a PROJECTION of the human personality onto a "heavenly being." See the Sistine Chapel for details.
But clearly there is no such being in the sky. Humans evolved into existence some 100,000 years to, say 1-5 million years ago, depending on what you define as "human." The evidence for this is massive and irrefutable. Biblical claims of "God" are, in comparison, merely ancient superstition, internally contradictory, culturally derived and conflicting, and frankly childish, carried over to modern times by tradition and political correctness. This "God" is not, and cannot have been a creator of anything in, or the entirety of, the Universe, which is vastly older than any man, some 13.7 BILLION years old. The thought that a human or humanoid created its own environment, and itself, is quite absurd.
Other than the conceit that "God" is a man, theists absolutely have no idea, nor any evidence, that such a being has any properties they can discuss, or believe in or have faith in. This goes for atheists too. They can't formulate any possible construct of "God" -- what it IS -- to reject it. My position is thus non-cognitivism. The idea of "God" is irrational; it's just a meaningless string of three letters.
Christianity is not illogical;
Ashwan,
It's unclear as to why the existence of a 6 foot tall rabbit, which would be a difference of degree a life form that we're quite sure exists, is more 'illogical' than a single, immaterial God that consists of three persons, or an infinite being who is not infinitely tolerant and has boundaries. You've merely asserted that Christianity is logical.
that being said, many people - including some Christians - have beliefs that are indeed illogical, because of bad information. But again, Christianity is not illogical. Try reading Simon Greenleaf's "The Testimony of the Evangelists."
Again, we have just as much 'evidence' that God decides to heal some people, but not others, through prayer as we do that God 'messed' up your friends marriage. The effect of prayer is statistically equal to random variation.
Since the Christian God is depicted as both disputing peoples relationships and healing the sick, on what basis have you decided that one belief is illogical, while another is not?
In other words, how do you know which information is in fact 'bad', instead of just being beyond your comprehension or part of God's mysterious ways?
hybridelephant
i don't believe in God, i know God exists. i "believe" in God the same way i "believe" in oxygen.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Air has real physical properties that can be measured, tested, and seen.
Oxygen is nothing like your christian god concept.
Consider that depriving oxygen to any living thing, on this earth, is a universal knowledge, where as your supposed knowledge of god is only limited to people who believe the way you do. You do NOT know god exists you believe he exists.
All you have is a human construct, built from your idiosyncratic interpretation of scripture and flights of fancy -- ALL of which you can NOT substantiate, with ANY objective evidence, leaving you to, ridiculously, flounder about, only, to offer us pathetic, subjective rationalizations, as to the existence of your god.
--S.
Hi Ahswan,
would you mind giving me some data to go with that assertion please?
- show me how my data that people have beliefs they don't benefit from and don't want does not support my assertion
- show me some data to back up your assertion that people can form a belief consciously, and I assume instantaneously
We choose to believe the sun "rises" both because we've learned about the solar system, but also because it's reaffirmed each morning.
That is an unconscious process. You could test your hypothesis if you really tried. You could not make yourself believe the sun will not rise tomorrow because no matter how you tried, all that knowledge you have locked away in your brain that you don't have conscious access too is going to prevent your "emotional signaller" (whatever it is) from making you feel like its right.
We don't have access to everything that goes on in our brains. If you did, you'd have to make conscious choices about so many things you'd be cirppled. You don't have to think about breathing, walking, driving, reading, speaking, grabbing your cup, all kinds of things, and your beliefs are the same way. They are handled by unconscious processes that you don't have access to.
there is only a "spotlight" of consciousness that illuminates only a small percentage of all the processes that are going on in your brain.
I can show you tons of data.
Go look up your endocrine system and see how much your hormones secreted from the rest of the organs in your body affect your brain, therefore affect your thinking, therefore affect your decisions. Go look up agressiveness associated with the maoa gene.
Your brain is a ship that rides on an ocean of biological processes and you are just along for the ride. Sure, turn that wheel, let out that sail, but your efforts are only a small percentage of how that ship behaves. You have to cooperate with the environment to go anywhere.
Here is a link to all my articles on Biological bases for behavior full of data for you to look at.
Hi Dave ! you said "So God, who created us (and reason) has to act in a way that us (created man) consider reasonable? Sounds like you want the God who made us to follow our rules! It also sounds like we have become the judge as to what is or is not reasonable! Perhaps, just perhaps, the God who created us gave us less brains than he has and what we consider reasonable is not!"
Well Dave do you think we should follow Gods rules then that might sound unreasonable to many of us?.Seeing you suggest it might be wrong for us to expect it likely god would follow our reasoning.If he possesses more brains then lets look how it will be with us following his examples.
Like maybe we should be able to (not) give our children good instructions that are easily translated or are non conflicting,and then quite rightly be able to punish our children for not ending up doing what we wish?.
And even if our beliefs lack good evidence and proof,maybe we should still be able to punish our children for not having any faith in our beliefs.A kind of parent dictatorship would soon follow.
Dave we really need reasoning!,as without it this world would be total chaos.Very little would make good sense.
Dave, greetings in the construct we know as the lovely name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Peace be unto you!
You stated: So God, who created us (and reason) has to act in a way that us (created man) consider reasonable? Sounds like you want the God who made us to follow our rules! It also sounds like we have become the judge as to what is or is not reasonable! Perhaps, just perhaps, the God who created us gave us less brains than he has and what we consider reasonable is not!
Dave, you might be making some sense above if God did not give Moses the Torah and then sent His son (Jesus) to object as to how it was applied.
Jesus’ accusation that the Jews or supporters of God’s law code (Torah) the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes were wrong cost Jesus his life (Final score: Jews 1; Jesus 0).
Secondly, Paul’s conflict with Peter and the wondering Judaizers who held to the teaching of Jesus show that at no time was the early Jesus movement (later known as Christianity) ever unified.
Fact is, Paul bitterly attacks his opponents (such as Peter) in his letters and the fact that all his letters (except Romans) are addressed only to the churches he himself founded...the one Paul consider true.
Plus, the very fact we have Christian groups subjectively labeled heretics and orthodox proves that the Christian group that dominates (via “might makes right”) with created orthodox dogmas (along with their orthodox God) are purely a human intellectual constructs!
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