Cooking the Books To Avoid IDQ Principles

A straw man (aka misrepresentation) and a moving goal post (aka sliding window).
Over at Sophies LadderJeff has misunderstood my position.

I do not think the Bible should be used as a history book or a science book, and I know the Bible, in its current form, was not intended to be either. I know there is no warrant to take the bible as a science or history "treatise". I agree we delineate our concepts such as biology and (as he says) Philosophy (but I wouldn't have used philosophy because its not data driven) based on its intent and its purpose. Jeffs asks rhetorically
What is the proper IDQ criteria to be applied to poetry and mythology? Or better yet, what is the proper IDQ criteria to be applied to information dealing with the transcendent?

At this point he as compared the Bible to Poetry and Mythology and he used the term "Transcendent" in relation to Poetry and Mythology but I haven't seen him define what he thinks transcendent is. He seems to suggest that poetry and mythology are transcendent. has the definition of "Transcendent" as follows.

1. Surpassing others; preeminent or supreme.
2. Lying beyond the ordinary range of perception: “fails to achieve a transcendent significance in suffering and squalor” (National Review).
3. Philosophy.
1. Transcending the Aristotelian categories.
2. In Kant's theory of knowledge, being beyond the limits of experience and hence unknowable.
4. Being above and independent of the material universe. Used of the Deity.

Cooking the Books: Shifting the relative value of the Bible to make a point
While I assume he's using transcendent with regard to the bible as option four, I can only guess at how he applies it to poetry and mythology. And I can only guess at what the relationship is between The Bible, Poetry and Mythology. I know The Bible has Hebrew Poetry in it, and I presume that it has mythology in it, but I don't understand how Jeff views it. Usually we don't presume Poetry or Mythology as having the same importance as the Bible and tradition holds that the originating source for the bible is not the mind of humans as is the case with poetry and mythology. If Jeff wants to say that Divine inspiration originates in the mind of humans and is of the same type as any other inspiration I will go along with that, but I doubt he's willing to agree to that.

One persons Relgion is another persons Mythology
IDQ is meant to assess information that is intended for use in decision making.
It is not meant to assess poetry and mythology, but it can, and it will produce metrics. But there is no reason to apply IDQ principles to poetry and mythology because they are not intended to be accurate with respect to the real world. The writer is at liberty to record whatever she pleases with no presumption or expectation of accuracy. However, in the case of Tom Clancy, the accuracy of the information in his books adds to the appeal. Poetry's purpose is not to create text to be used for decision making but to express whatever the writer has in her head. On the other hand, generally speaking, one persons mythology is or was another persons religion. An old worn out religion becomes a mythology. We have plenty of examples of it: Egyptian, Vedic, Sumerian, Greek, Roman, and all the millions of subcultures scattered around the world. African Bushmen had a religion, Australian Aboriginees had a religion, American indians had a Religion etc.

Generally, novels and short stories are not intended as data for decision making, either, but IDQ can be applied and metrics can be derived, but its not clear why one would want to do that. However The Bible supposedly does represent real world states, some history of the Jewish people and the only record of Jesus. The question is what is the quality of that information?


Reverend Phillip Brown said...

Hi Lee,

I have liked your posts thought really have not spent the time going through all of them and honestly do not understand IDQ fully if at all.

However, as I am aware I think the Bible only describes itself as a Holy book for God's people for the use of God's people about God's son.

How would you apply IDQ to that? Can it be assessed in the same manner? If so does it hold up?

Regards, Rev Phil.

Toby said...


The methods Lee employs are easy to understand, but you have to take the time to read his posts in full. The concepts are fairly straight forward. The answer to your questions is found within his prior posts.

Lee Randolph said...

Hi toby,
your check is in the mail! ;-)

Hi Phil, Toby's right,
but here is a recap,
is the bible error free? were there any mistakes in its creation and/or its transmission? How accurate is it? Are the terms and concepts adequately defined? Does it have any ambiguity? Is the information complete with regards to the things it talks about? Did the first guy have a better copy of the information than the rest of us? How credible is the source? Do we know who the source is?

even if
the Bible only describes itself as a Holy book for God's people for the use of God's people about God's son
it should still be accurate about the things it talks about shouldn't it?

so far I have only handled IDQ design flaws. I'm working towards the 18 or so IDQ dimensions and an assessment of part of the bible using IDQ criteria.

Later I'll post some info about how to find the core research articles and book I am using. It will be the same stuff I keep linking to, but this time it will be all in one place.

Lee Randolph said...

HI Phil,
Can it be assessed in the same manner?
I'm still waiting for a coherent reason why it can't. Otherwise, the answer is yes.

Lee Randolph said...

Hi Phil,
as promised, here are the links to the core research that I am using for my arguments, and a link to the book on amazon.

Anchoring Data Quality Dimensions in Ontological Foundations

Beyond Accuracy: What Data Quality Means To Consumers

Data Quality Assessment

Journey to Data Quality, from Amazon

Gandolf said...

Reverend Phillip Brown said.."However, as I am aware I think the Bible only describes itself as a Holy book for God's people for the use of God's people about God's son."

Dang and here i was thinkin it was more a book of god for saving simple sinners .

Is it only then passed on by the transcended humans?

But hold on isnt that how we came up with so many differing translations and dominations already.

All of them making claims to have been led by the holy spirit etc having received the right teaching.

This god when supplying this divine inspirational literature ,sure must have had a lot of faith in us knowing just what transcended translations of gods people we should choose to follow.His book has sure led many people to all believe many different ideas

Isnt it a bit like Russian Roulette ?