Plantinga Propounds Invalid Argument

In his review of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, Alvin Plantinga, the John A. O'Brien Professor of Philosophy at the University of Notre Dame, admitted that he has propounded some invalid arguments in his life. It's good to know that he is aware of this fact but he seems to have done it again with his most recent argument.

His recent article in Christianity Today manages to misunderstand probability, biological evolution, Bayesian analysis and neurophysiology all at once in the service of his presuppositions. To start with, it's important to realize that although Plantinga is not himself a young-earth Creationist, he is sympathetic to them. He said in an earlier formulation of this argument:

Nonetheless a sensible person might be convinced, after careful and prayerful study of the Scriptures, that what the Lord teaches there (the book of Genesis -- ev) implies that this evidence is misleading and that as a matter of fact the earth really is very young. So far as I can see, there is nothing to rule this out as automatically pathological or irrational or irresponsible or stupid.

Plantinga himself believes that the earth is old because multiple lines of evidence converge to show this to be the case. Yet he is willing to accept the sensiblity of someone who does not accept the evidence that he does, because they are using their faith in scriptures and praying about it. If this is an adequate epistemology for a philosopher one wonders if there will be much in the rest of his philosophy to dream of or wonder about.

This credulity (that scripture and prayer are valid sources of knowledge for the Christian theist) is the crux of Plantinga's fallacy. He seems to accept the validity of Christian theism first and then adjudicate all positions in the light of this position in standard "presuppositionalist" ways. However these presuppositions simply don't conform with the evidence we have available. Of course, in Plantinga's mind, that is the fault of human minds. If our reason and the evidence lead us to doubt God, it is likely that our reason and evidence are wrong.

Specifically he says this:

I said naturalism is in philosophical hot water; this is true on several counts, but here I want to concentrate on just one—one connected with the thought that evolution supports or endorses or is in some way evidence for naturalism. As I see it, this is a whopping error: evolution and naturalism are not merely uneasy bedfellows; they are more like belligerent combatants. One can't rationally accept both evolution and naturalism; one can't rationally be an evolutionary naturalist. The problem, as several thinkers (C. S. Lewis, for example) have seen, is that naturalism, or evolutionary naturalism, seems to lead to a deep and pervasive skepticism. It leads to the conclusion that our cognitive or belief-producing faculties—memory, perception, logical insight, etc.—are unreliable and cannot be trusted to produce a preponderance of true beliefs over false. Darwin himself had worries along these lines: "With me," says Darwin, "the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?"

Now I am certainly one to congratulate and reward someone who has a deep and pervasive skepticism. Skepticism is one of the very best tools to keep your wits, your money and your body safe. Yet skepticism is hardly a characteristic of naturalists alone. Christian theists are also skeptical, including Plantinga himself, who doubts that the Bible is correct on the age of the earth. One must wonder exactly what mechanism Plantinga imagines allows him to have the correct apprehension of this particular fact when so many of his "sensible" coreligionists and theists in general disagree with him on this point vehemently. Does he believe that his brain is working better than theirs? Yet this could not be for Plantinga, because he believes that brains don't detect true beliefs.

I know you think I'm kidding, but really, that is his position. He believes that brains by themselves are evolved organs and therefore can only be "adaptive" but that being adaptive does not entail the truth of a given conclusion arrived at by an adaptive organ.

Let's look again at his position about what he calls "neurophysiology":

Your beliefs may all be false, ridiculously false; if your behavior is adaptive, you will survive and reproduce. Consider a frog sitting on a lily pad. A fly passes by; the frog flicks out its tongue to capture it. Perhaps the neurophysiology that causes it to do so, also causes beliefs. As far as survival and reproduction is concerned, it won't matter at all what these beliefs are: if that adaptive neurophysiology causes true belief (e.g., those little black things are good to eat), fine. But if it causes false belief (e.g., if I catch the right one, I'll turn into a prince), that's fine too. Indeed, the neurophysiology in question might cause beliefs that have nothing to do with the creature's current circumstances (as in the case of our dreams); that's also fine, as long as the neurophysiology causes adaptive behavior. All that really matters, as far as survival and reproduction is concerned, is that the neurophysiology cause the right kind of behavior; whether it also causes true belief (rather than false belief) is irrelevant.

But this metaphor is absurd and wrong on the face of it. For a frog to catch a fly he first needs to adequately apprehend that there is a fly to be caught. This belief MUST be true for a frog to catch it. The frog's eye must accurately determine there is a fly in the field of vision. It must accurately gauge the speed and distance of the oncoming fly. It must accurately know the position of its tongue in its mouth and accurately direct its head and mouth at the correct angle to catch the fly. All of these things are things the frog's brain must believe first, before it can create an overarching belief that drives it to catch and eat the fly. Therefore Plantinga must admit that at least some of the beliefs the frog needs to have must correspond accurately to the external world. And of course, even in his example, the simplest belief is the one that is most correct, namely that the fly will feel better if it eats.

Plantinga's skepticism about neurophysiology assumes the accuracy of perception. Yet we all know that many perceptions themselves can be flawed. A few minutes with a magic-eyes book or even a glass of water and a pencil can show a child that. So if Plantinga's main point is that perception, memory, the brain's physics, working logic and apperception can be inherently flawed yet still adaptive, his point is one that neuroscientists have been making for several decades.

Yet Plantinga wants to take healthy skepticism and reduce it to a ridiculous solipsism that would be destructive to all knowledge. His way out is obvious:

Clearly this doubt arises for naturalists or atheists, but not for those who believe in God. That is because if God has created us in his image, then even if he fashioned us by some evolutionary means, he would presumably want us to resemble him in being able to know; but then most of what we believe might be true even if our minds have developed from those of the lower animals.

As a side point, the use of the term "lower animals" is simply another example of his lack of understanding of biology. A high-school level understanding of biology as it is taught in the 21st century would teach Plantinga that all life forms on earth are equally evolved. They have all derived from a common ancestor and have been adapting to changing environments and ecologies since then and all lineages extant have survived to this point. There are no "lower animals" unless you already accept creationism. But back to his main point.

According to Plantinga, while brains cannot evolve a method for detecting truth, God can give them that ability through his creation. Yet of course there is simply no logical connection between the existence of a theistic deity and the belief systems of organisms evolved under such a deity. I will give some alternatives that Plantinga fails to even consider, much less address, that show how limited his "supernaturalism" really is.

Example 1: There is a theistic deity. He does wish to make creatures in "his image" and intends to at some point in the future. We are "lower creatures" who can discern some of the deity's plans but remain ignorant about our role in them.

Example 2: There is a theistic deity who is evil and enjoys making a mockery of the creatures he watches evolving. They live and die with ridiculous beliefs about him and he chuckles about it like a pet owner chuckling at his dog when he puts peanut butter in his mouth.

Example 3: There is a deistic deity.

Example 4: The deity is panentheistic and is part of the entire process of creation and can only direct it from within matter, and thus is subject to the rules of matter.

Example 5: There are multiple supernatural beings who vie for control of the supernatural realm in a type of supernatural selection to propagate themselves and the supernatural substance they are created from.

There is simply no logical or philosophical reason to select Christian theism as the only rational alternative to methodological naturalism. Certainly there is no reason to assume the probability of one supernatural hypothesis over any other as there is simply no accepted supernatural data. Plantinga knows, however, that most of his readers are either Christian or former Christians and thus artificially limits his calculus to those two possibilities to make his outcome look superficially more plausible.

I specifically reject his use of Bayesian analysis in this article and the reason is the same one I give generically in all these situations. Bayes was discussing decisions made when there is a knowable a priori probability being discussed. The data that we have are then plugged in to that equation and an a posteriori calculation is then performed to determine the probabilities after the data is analyzed.

Yet our knowledge of universes is limited to an n of 1. Our universe, so far as we are able to talk with evidence about it, is sui generis. Therefore there cannot be a knowable a priori probability of a given type of universe existing from a pool of all possible universes. In fact, we can't even make a rational guess at how likely any given universe might be. This is like using a hammer to drive on the road. It's simply a ridiculous misuse of a tool.

When math is used improperly, it generates results that make no sense, and this is what happens when Plantinga uses it here. He is doing the equivalent of a sophomoric trick by dividing by zero unknowingly.

Even accepting his Bayesian analysis (which I do not) does not rescue his position however, because he is arguing that if most beliefs are false then all beliefs are false, which is unworthy of someone who has never taken a philosophy course, much less a professor. Certainly someone who has written three volumes on belief must know that there are techniques philosophers have devised over the centuries to separate true from false beliefs and that these techniques are far from universally employed -- even by philosophers, even by himself. While he does believe that he has had some true beliefs, he has admitted in his review of Dawkins that some of his arguments in the past have been invalid. How is it possible for his God-given truth detector to have allowed this?


After reviewing these facts and the gross misapprehension of how Bayes theorem works, it's fun to review another quote from his review of Dawkins:

You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins' main argument seriously.

In that spirit, I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take the rest of Plantinga's argument seriously.

So Plantinga goes on to argue that if evolution is true than naturalism is disproved, because some of our perceptions are apparently true and adaptive. He believes that this can only be explained by the presupposition of theism:

Returning to methodological naturalism, if indeed natural science is essentially restricted in this way, if such a restriction is a part of the very essence of science, then what we need here, of course, is not natural science, but a broader inquiry that can include all that we know, including the truths that God has created life on earth and could have done it in many different ways. "Unnatural Science," "Creation Science," "Theistic Science"-call it what you will: what we need when we want to know how to think about the origin and development of contemporary life is what is most plausible from a Christian point of view. What we need is a scientific account of life that isn't restricted by that methodological naturalism.

Note that Plantinga simply asserts the "truth" that God has created life on earth. He gives no evidence for this position and also suggests that the entire scientific enterprise itself is somehow suspect because of his argument about methodological naturalism. Yet is this the case?

No.

Here's why not: Most beliefs are worthy of skepticism. The fact that most beliefs may be wrong is simply not an argument. Of course many or most beliefs may be wrong. It is the job of philosophers to counteract wrong arguments and beliefs by coming up with ways to avoid them. Yet if we assume, as Plantinga does, that the only way we can have correct beliefs is because God is letting us have them, there is simply no job left for the philosopher. He may abdicate his job and let the workings of the deity do its business.

Yet of course, Plantinga must be aware of the proliferation of false beliefs on this earth and their ubiquity. In a day's conversation he must encounter multiple false beliefs. Yet he gives no explanation about how a God-given method for detecting truth would operate. He has certainly never demonstrated a technique that differs from that of methodological naturalism. Is there a way to show that true beliefs can only exist for those whom God is blessing with them?

Given the nearly universal presence of false beliefs, this is a strong acid that Plantinga is playing with, and from my point of view it dissolves the bottle that he is trying to carry it in.

To wit, if we accept his proposition, arguendo, that organisms that have evolved in a natural world may very well evolve to have adaptive but false beliefs that are widespread, does that not comport pretty well with the world we see? In fact, assuming naturalism, would we not expect to see hierarchies of beliefs that coexist and a mixture of some falsehood and some truth within those hierarchies of belief?

In fact what we see is nearly universal acceptance of directly perceived facts. Only the craziest among us will doubt there is a yellow lemon in the room when we are all staring at one. This is a directly perceived object which fits neatly in a perceptual category for which we have a concrete word. The same goes for our beliefs when driving a car. There is little room for skepticism about an oncoming car and false beliefs about such a thing will rapidly result in negative consequences for the individual that has them.

Our brains and perceptual systems of course are not evolved to create true beliefs, Plantinga is certainly correct about that, but they are evolved to create accurate perceptions. And each perception that we have insinuates itself into a rounded and whole set of beliefs, each of which is reinforced by the other.

However some beliefs have very few perceptions on which to base themselves on. For example, a sense of awe at seeing something greater than oneself is quite remarkable when it happens, but differing things awe different people. One person is awed by the Taj Mahal, another by Yosemite, and another by the starry sky at night. There simply is no general agreement on awe. And thus, when people discuss awe, there is more nuance, less agreement, and more difficulty at achieving a consensus of truth.

Even moreso when we get to beliefs based on no direct perceptions at all: Mohammed rode a winged horse to Jerusalem. The Buddha forewent nirvana to become a bodhisattva. The Great Spirit will protect the plains and their bison. Quetzalcoatl has appeared in Veracruz and is on his way to Tenochtitlan to usher in the next age.

The Christian theist must -- if he accepts Christianity as true, be skeptical about all these strongly held beliefs. Yet by what mechanism then does he trust his own beliefs about his own religion? According to Plantinga, God allows him to see the truth of them. Yet is it not possible, yea, even probable that God is allowing someone else to see a truth and not allowing the Christian?

Plantinga simply fails to address this possibility.

His argument seems to fail in two directions then. In one direction it simply asserts a truism of philosophy that has been known since the presocratics, namely that some perceptions and some beliefs that are accepted as accurate by those who hold them are wrong. The proper response to this as far as I can tell is, "Duh."

The second way it fails though is the much more spectacular, for by expressing contempt for methodological naturalism, it eviscerates all but the most uncritical, fundamentalist theism, something Plantinga himself seems to think is "sensible" but that he does not yet wish to fully endorse.

His lack of a method for God's image to function as a truth-maker leaves his corrosive skepticism for naturalism eating away at the vessel he carries it in until they both lie on the ground at his feet, bubbling, oozing and evaporating away into the air.

26 comments:

Steven Carr said...

'If our reason and the evidence lead us to doubt God, it is likely that our reason and evidence are wrong.'

Strange, because Plantinga claims that theism is the bedrock for the claim that our cognitive faculties are reliable.

And now he says that people's cognitive faculties are sometimes unreliable.

So I guess theism is not true, as theism was supposed to make our cognitive faculties reliable.

Steven Carr said...

PLANTINGA
Your beliefs may all be false, ridiculously false;

CARR
So Plantinga thinks that we can look at green grass, and believe it is blue?

How would such a belief form?

And how does theism save beliefs from being possibly false?

If I see something that looks like a snake, perhaps I will form the false belief that it really is s snake, although it is really Satan in disguise?

Once you have the supernatural, all of your beliefs at once become questionable, because supernatural agents can change the laws of nature at will.

zilch said...

Great post, Evan. For the life of me, I don't understand why Plantinga is so highly regarded. He says:

The problem, as several thinkers (C. S. Lewis, for example) have seen, is that naturalism, or evolutionary naturalism, seems to lead to a deep and pervasive skepticism. It leads to the conclusion that our cognitive or belief-producing faculties—memory, perception, logical insight, etc.—are unreliable and cannot be trusted to produce a preponderance of true beliefs over false.

As you say, Evan, what's wrong with being skeptical? But there's something else going on here as well, which is revealing of the believers' (or perhaps the philosophers') mindset- the unspoken assumptions that:

1) "beliefs" are something that can be clearly defined, such that some entity either has beliefs or doesn't (people do, rocks don't), and

2) that beliefs can be simply categorized as either "true" or "false".

A little thought, and a little knowledge of history, shows that both these unspoken assumptions are unwarranted. "Beliefs", like emotions, cultures, and bodies, are evolved entities: before there was life, there were no beliefs, and now there are; and beliefs, like all other attributes of life, evolved gradually. Do rocks have beliefs? Do bacteria? Ants? Frogs? Chimps? Do chess-playing programs have beliefs? There's no point at which one can draw a hard and fast line, and say "this entity has beliefs, this one doesn't".

And looking at beliefs as being "true" or "false" is misleading: only in systems of formal logic, such as mathematics, can things be, by definition, absolutely true or false: 2+2=4 is absolutely true in arithmetic, for instance. A frog's "belief" about flying objects is a model which works to keep the frog well fed, but it is not absolutely "true" or "false". All of our science is the same: our models of the world are not "true" or "false", they are rather descriptions of the world which are more or less accurate: they are maps, with more or less detail, not absolute truths. Plantinga's example of a froggy "true" belief, those little black things are good to eat, can be fooled: frogs will happily snap up BB's that are tossed in their line of sight, until they are so heavy they cannot move.

But our models, and those of frogs, are pretty good (tricksy BB-tossing experimenters are rare in the wild), and we humans, and our frog cousins, can and do risk our lives on their fit with the real world. For Plantinga to say that naturalism implies that if that adaptive neurophysiology causes true belief (e.g., those little black things are good to eat), fine. But if it causes false belief (e.g., if I catch the right one, I'll turn into a prince), that's fine too is, well, just silly: frogs cannot have any concept of "princes", and it seems on the face of it, that wasting time and energy entertaining such useless thoughts is unlikely to be adaptive, and I suspect (although I cannot prove) that no frog has ever had such a thought.

kiwi said...

Surely believing that our cognitive faculties are reliable is properly basic?

I mean, all human beings under normal conditions assume that their cognitive faculties are reliable. There's no reason to doubt that.

If our congnitive faculties are not reliable... Then how the hell were we able to develop advanced technologies, go on the moon, develop scientific theories that make accurate predictions, etc

So, why should we reject naturalism already?

"I don't understand why Plantinga is so highly regarded."

Highly regarded by who?

zilch said...

Kiwi- well, Plantinga is regularly quoted by apologists with approval, for instance by the crew over at AtheismIsDead, and I've never yet heard an apologist criticize him, so he seems to be "highly regarded" by at least some apologists.

Unknown said...

Might be a bit OT, but what the hell was Plantinga thinking when he wrote this:

"Now in response to this kind of theistic argument, Dawkins, along with others, proposes that possibly there are very many (perhaps even infinitely many) universes, with very many different distributions of values over the physical constants. Given that there are so many, it is likely that some of them would display values that are life-friendly. So if there are an enormous number of universes displaying different sets of values of the fundamental constants, it's not at all improbable that some of them should be "fine-tuned." We might wonder how likely it is that there are all these other universes, and whether there is any real reason (apart from wanting to blunt the fine-tuning arguments) for supposing there are any such things.9 But concede for the moment that indeed there are many universes and that it is likely that some are fine-tuned and life-friendly. That still leaves Dawkins with the following problem: even if it's likely that some universes should be fine-tuned, it is still improbable that this universe should be fine-tuned. Name our universe alpha: the odds that alpha should be fine-tuned are exceedingly, astronomically low, even if it's likely that some universe or other is fine-tuned."

So if every lottery ticket is sold, then the winner -- and there _must_ of course be a winner -- is justified in thinking that someone tinkered with the lottery so that he would win? No, of course not.

Plantinga should've consulted his colleague Peter Van Inwagen before he published his review (Van Inwagen has a very good section on the multiverse argument in his book "Metaphysics").

Evan said...

Klas I have to say that until there is actual evidence for other locations besides our cosmos (and in the interest of linguistic purity I would argue that the universe must encompass everything that exists -- and that if there is a "multiverse" in concept that all possible cosmoses are included in the universe) it's the 21st century equivalent of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

It makes no real sense to discuss this hypothesis. The sui generis facts of what we can observe are simply that. Without knowing about any other similar events, we must simply accept that things in our cosmos are the way they are as a brute fact.

MosesZD said...

"and he chuckles about it like a pet owner chuckling at his dog when he puts peanut butter in his mouth."

For the record, my wife said the dog liked it. And sticky toffee, too. And there was no amount of humiliation the dog wouldn't go through to get more.

Having seen this with other dogs... I tend to believe her.

Evan said...

If there is no humiliation the dog won't go through to get more, that sounds like a pretty apt analogy then.

kiwi said...

Klas_klazon: I think Plantinga point is valid.

Dawkins argument for atheism in "The God Delusion" is basically in one sentence: a God (capable of creating and sustaining a universe) would be so astronomically complex that the probability he exists is negligible to a point we can conclude he almost certainly does not exist.

Keeping that in mind, how is the multiverse any better as an explanation than God is, if it's probably infinitely unlikely that our universe would just happen to be the one to be finely tuned? If Dawkins rejects the God hypothesis because 1) the odds such a Person as God would exist is astronomically small 2) there is no evidence such a God exists, then he would have to reject the multiverse hypothesis for the same 2 reasons!

Unknown said...

kiwi,

I think you misunderstand what Plantinga is arguing. Plantinga is, for the sake of argument, conceding that there are "many universes, and that it is likely that some are fine-tuned and life-friendly." Now, think of each universe as a lottery ticket (life-friendly universe = winning ticket), that there are a lot of people buying a ticket, and that therefore it's likely that someone will win.

Saying, as Plantinga does, that

"That still leaves Dawkins with the following problem: even if it's likely that some universes should be fine-tuned, it is still improbable that this universe should be fine-tuned. Name our universe alpha: the odds that alpha should be fine-tuned are exceedingly, astronomically low, even if it's likely that some universe or other is fine-tuned."

is analogous to saying "Even if it's likely that someone will win the lottery, it is still improbable that _Peter_ will win." But if Peter wins, should we suspect that someone has tinkered with the lottery in his favor? As I said, no. (For an in-depth discussion of why, see chapter 9 in "Metaphysics" by Van Inwagen). So why then, if there indeed is a multiverse, should we be surprised about being here discussing the matter?

kiwi said...

Klas: thinking about it, I'm not sure if what I've said made any sense at all.

Rayndeon said...

Nice article, Evan. I think you should emphasize more, IMO, that since cognitive faculties do not select for particular beliefs, any particular mutations to a species is going to affect any potential beliefs they might form viz. a mutation to the area of the brain dealing with sight will affect visual perception and hence any interpretation of that visual data. Hence, beliefs are, contra Plantinga, highly interdependent and interlocking. I think you also should have emphasized that the probability of a cognitive faculty capable of forming adaptive false beliefs is inordinately low, since it would require a different false belief for each particular situation, whereas a cognitive faculty capable of forming adaptive true beliefs is far more likely, as a singular set of true beliefs will yield future reliability and what not. You did mention this, but you left a little wiggle room for misinterpretation on the part of the Christian.

But, these are very minor notices and I agree with pretty much everything you said. Top notch job!

@Klas:

Plantinga should've consulted his colleague Peter Van Inwagen before he published his review (Van Inwagen has a very good section on the multiverse argument in his book "Metaphysics").

Well, you don't really even need the multiverse argument to defeat the FTA. There are about three different fatal problems to the FTA: (1) life is not a special phenomenon a priori (2) there is no probability data available (3) theism is not a good explanation. By (1), I mean that life is not a royal flush - there's nothing particularly special in advance. S.J. Gould rightly said that any particular complex set of events after they happen, calculate the probability of their happening in the future, and conclude that their happening is miraculous. Every single analogy the theist brings up for the FTA betrays this misunderstanding - for instance, Niobium is also rather improbable under these constants presumably - hence, shall one conclude that there is a Designer concerned entirely with Niobium? It's these type of concerns that so entirely invalidate the FTA. Life is just another contingent phenomenon of the universe - there is nothing special in advance. The argument requires a thorough-going anthropocentricism, in the same way that the special nature of royal flushes are (rightly) based on anthropocentricism, there is nothing about life to suggest such a transfer in intuitions. Peter van Inwagen makes the same mistake as John Leslie in this regard, by using an inappropriate analogy in this regard. Clearly, there is nothing special about life anymore than black holes or Niobium or any other particular phenomenon. Check out Neil Manson in this regard.

(2) is probably the biggest problem for the FTA. Although there are some considerations as to whether or not the constants are fine-tuned in the first place, several immediate problems result. First, presumably, a constant is fine-tuned if and only if the life-permitting range of constants is inordinately small compared to the range of non-life-permitting constants. But, this tells us nothing about phase space, modality, or probability distribution. Simply pointing out the vast range of non-life-permitting constants does not somehow show that they are among the phase space of other possible universes - anymore than pointing out a value of 1 is of the phase space of two six-sided dies thrown together (1 is not a member of the phase space). Moreover, even a phase space doesn't provide probability distribution. To take the example of a discrete phase space, such as integer values of 2 - 12, such a phase space describes the phase space of the theoretical probabilities of two six-sided dies thrown together. However, the values are not equiprobable or any of that. A value of seven, for example, is more probable than two. The former has a probability of 1/6 whereas the latter has a probability of 1/36 - the former is six times as likely. Moreover, there is difficulty in understanding the claim that the constants could have been different and then interpreting the probabilities from there. Nomic possibility is defined by virtue of the laws of physics, which are related by the actual constants. Hence, these constants must obtain across all nomically possible worlds. Even if there is a universe-generator such as an inflation field, then the constants concerning that are the basis of nomic possibility. Moreover, if the laws of physics could be different, then, surely the very (unknown) phase space and probability distribution may well have been different as well - different laws of physics and different initial conditions lend themselves to different phase spaces and probability distributions. Suppose however that the proponent of the FTA relies on a logical modality and insists that the phase space of possible constants ranges over the positive real numbers and there is a uniform probability distribution, well, that results in the fact that the probability of zero; but, likewise, the probability of the non-life permitting region must also be zero, no matter its size, since the range of possible values is infinite. This means that the life-permitting region is just as probable as the non-life-permitting region (making a mockery of even the naive claim that life is somehow more special) and undermines the Bayesian reasoning, since the probability of any hypothesis conditionalized to the fine-tuning is undefined, and under the inverse probabilities, no hypothesis can raise a probability of zero, hence, no hypothesis can confirm a probability of zero. So, what to do? Perhaps reject logical possibility? But, they can't use physical possibility since these values are the only one's physically possible. So, there's going to be some non-standard modality invoked here and in restricting the range of possible values, there's going to have to be some fine-tuning in picking out a non-arbitrary range! So, under any probabilistic analysis of the problem, the argument just doesn't work. The problem is, as D.H. Mellor noted, we have to consider the physical probabilities in question - but those are defined with respect to the actual physical constants and so on and so forth - hence, we need some background context by which to understand the probabilities but there is no background context to the initial conditions of the universe. Hence, probabilities are widely misused by the theist in this regard. For more reading, check out Mark Colyvan, Jay Garfield, and Graham Priest's excellent paper "Problems with the Fine-Tuning Argument." Synthese 145:3 (July 2005): pp. 325–38.

Finally, it's quite clear that theism is not a good hypothesis. It is entirely ad hoc and "explains" the matter in the same way that gremlins bowling the attic explains noises in the attic. Both raise the probability of the evidence to 1, but are nonetheless useless as hypotheses. They predict no further facts, have no explanatory scope, etc - they explain by taking the same fact, attaching a tautologous "God did it" (or "Gremlin did it by bowling") - and hence concluding that God, or Gremlin, did it. I hope I don't have to stress how deficient this procedure is. Clearly, we're going to end up with *some* brute fact at the end of it - a universe allowing for life, or there being a God such that it wants to make a universe allowing for life, a brute fact just as well, one just as "fine-tuned" as this universe. We have actual evidence of the former. We just have an ad hoc inference for the latter. Which should we prefer? I trust the choice is clear.

(For anyone bringing up the necessity of God, I trust they understand how useless the FTA becomes. Because then, the FTA is just superfluous - you might well say that since God is necessary, He is actual - why bring up the FTA. But, more importantly, the fine-tuning evidence becomes irrelevant since the evidence conditionalized to the hypothesis of God's existence cannot confirm God's existence since it cannot raise anything with a probability of 1, since necessary propositions are maximally probable.)

For more discussion of the same, you might want to check out the posts of SophistiCat over at the Internet Infidels forum, along with mirage, on the same topic.

Anonymous said...

Nice Job Evan,
I hate wading through their rhetoric.
School boy grasp of biology, bayes theorem and .....Research.

In my opinion all these "hoity toity" [;-)] arguments can reduced to slippery slopes because they haven't verified their source. its all confirmation bias.

And putting so much value on belief is going to come crumbling down on them. The reason why is that unconscious decision making (aka a form of intuition, "gut feelings" ) and emotional signaling are being revealed to do what I think it does, which is CAUSE US TO BELIEVE WITHOUT THE USE OF FREE WILL.

Anonymous said...

Very nice job Evan!

Plantinga wrote, The problem, as several thinkers (C. S. Lewis, for example) have seen, is that naturalism, or evolutionary naturalism, seems to lead to a deep and pervasive skepticism.

To see why C.S. Lewis's argument does not suceed read chapter six in John Beversluis's book C.S. Lewis and the Search for Rational Religion (2007).

Jaceppe said...

Evan,

I have some thoughts on your thread even though I won’t be able to include my full commentary at this time… I read all 3 of Plantiga’s articles plus your post (although I need to reread the last 1/3 more closely to ascertain your closing argumentation and conclusions better…)…

1) You state in your comments:
This credulity (that scripture and prayer are valid sources of knowledge for the Christian theist) is the crux of Plantinga's fallacy. He seems to accept the validity of Christian theism first and then adjudicate all positions in the light of this position in standard "presuppositionalist" ways. However these presuppositions simply don't conform with the evidence we have available.

A couple of comments here:
It is not a fallacy… it is simply that there is scriptural and prayer evidence that either you do not accept or you interpret it differently. Also, Plantinga is as much within his rights in beginning with theism as you would be in beginning with naturalism. Finally, it is more the case that his presuppositions don’t conform to your interpretation of the evidence… that’s hardly the same thing as the evidence

2) …and you state in the same paragraph:
Of course, in Plantinga's mind, that is the fault of human minds. If our reason and the evidence lead us to doubt God, it is likely that our reason and evidence are wrong.

I couldn’t find in his 3 articles any reference point for your comment that he stated the above… could you please provide the article reference, especially in light of the fact that he makes all of the following statements in a single paragraph in 1 of the articles:

No doubt what reason, taken broadly, teaches is by and large reliable…but the sensible view here, overall, is that the deliverances of reason are for the most part reliable. … By and large, however, and over enormous swatches of cognitive territory, reason is reliable.

3) You also state:
Christian theists are also skeptical, including Plantinga himself, who doubts that the Bible is correct on the age of the earth.

This is not a correct view of his belief in reading these 3 articles. Rather, regarding the age of the earth, he thinks the evidence that the Bible actually teaches a young earth view is not as strong as the natural evidences that it is old and, as such, it is compatible to believe in both the Scriptural record and an old earth. I.E. He believes there is no contradiction in holding both of these views… That is a radically different statement than saying he thinks the Bible is incorrect on the age of the earth.

4) And then you state this:
Yet this could not be for Plantinga, because he believes that brains don't detect true beliefs.

Well, this is an incorrect understanding of his argument but I will have more to say on this further below… … you continue…

I know you think I'm kidding, but really, that is his position. He believes that brains by themselves are evolved organs and therefore can only be "adaptive" but that being adaptive does not entail the truth of a given conclusion arrived at by an adaptive organ.


You then gave a lengthy Plantinga quote about a frog… however, what you completely neglected is the context in which he made this analogy… What you omitted is 2 quotes he cites in that article just before the quote you extract. I will cite them for you…
As Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of the genetic code, writes in The Astonishing Hypothesis, "Our highly developed brains, after all, were not evolved under the pressure of discovering scientific truth, but only to enable us to be clever enough to survive and leave descendents." Taking up this theme, naturalist philosopher Patricia Churchland declares that the most important thing about the human brain is that it has evolved; hence, she says, its principal function is to enable the organism to move appropriately:
“Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succed in the four F's: feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing. The principal chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive … . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism's way of life and enhances the organism's chances of survival [Churchland's emphasis]. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.”


Also, did you forget in Plantinga’s review of Dawkins “God Delusion” that Plantinga made this remark:
Toward the end of the book, Dawkins endorses a certain limited skepticism. Since we have been cobbled together by (unguided) evolution, it is unlikely, he thinks, that our view of the world is overall accurate; natural selection is interested in adaptive behavior, not in true belief. But Dawkins fails to plumb the real depths of the skeptical implications of the view that we have come to be by way of unguided evolution…

Now, he doesn’t actually quote Dawkins there. I am planning to read “The God Delusion” so when I do I will pay close attention to see what is being referred to here. However, the other citations apply specifically to the argument he is making. And your counter analysis of his fly example misses the point. The frog in catching the fly is reacting to sensory stimuli: hunger pangs, sight, etc; electrochemical reactions occur; muscles react; tongue shoots out and fly is caught and consumed. The frog is required to “believe” nothing in this. Beliefs are thoughts about things; they are not adaptive behavior… Are you suggesting that the frog must 1st, have types of thoughts about the fly and then, 2nd, in these thoughts the frog must consider, ponder, believe things “correctly” about the fly in order for the adaptive behavioral responses of catching it to actually occur? Maybe Patricia Churchland doesn’t know her stuff, however, if you have evidence which demonstrates that “correct beliefs” are a 1st order affect of unguided evolutionary processes rather than what Churchland states: Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost by all means please point the way to the evidence…

Additionally, Plantinga’s arguments along these lines of “correct/incorrect beliefs” are not beliefs he holds. Rather, they are an argument he is making of what happens if one posits the premise of naturalism and unguided evolution. He believes in neither of these; He is a Christian Philosopher and I’ve already cited above he believes “reason” to be largely reliable; but remember, when he makes that statement it is from within his theistic framework, not the one he is arguing against. I hope you can see the difference.

And then you state further on:

As a side point, the use of the term "lower animals" is simply another example of his lack of understanding of biology.

Well, to provide another quote you neglect…
Darwin himself had worries along these lines: "With me," says Darwin, "the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?”

I guess you think Plantinga shouldn’t quote the Father of Your Faith and use language that Darwin used… But, to the point at hand he is trying to lay groundwork that naturalists have also been confronted with the difficulty of unreliable beliefs if unguided evolution is true. This is hardly something Plantinga himself thinks about his own beliefs.

Whether he has a good argument here or not I don’t know… He mentions a book, Naturalism Defeated? by James Beilby which detail some objections to his line of reasoning here and his responses… I haven’t read that. However, I don’t think anything you have put forth up to this point in your thread refutes his argument; maybe your closing is meatier.

5) And again you state:
Yet of course there is simply no logical connection between the existence of a theistic deity and the belief systems of organisms evolved under such a deity.

Well, I haven’t considered whether or not there is a “natural” logical connection. However, since Plantinga is a Christian he has access to Scriptural evidence that you do not. From the Christian theistic standpoint there is a direct connection between God, (i.e. the “Mind” behind the universe) and “mind” as it is found in us (or any living thing). The precise details of how God put “mind” in us and other living things is a topic for scientific discovery, philosophy, Christian doctrine, whatever… but, the Christian position is that “Man”, specifically, is in God’s “image” and one of those attributes is “mind”. It is a logical connection derived from Scriptural evidence.

6) Then you had a section on other theistic possibilities.

I understand that other religious systems may have different initial premises and explanations, but Plantinga is a Christian Philosopher… and, these 3 articles are written specifically in relation to unguided evolution and naturalism and not relating Christian theism to other theistic explanations.

7) You then state this:
I specifically reject his use of Bayesian analysis in this article and the reason is the same one I give generically in all these situations.

Which article are you referring to in your above comment? I want to reread the section you are responding to here.

8) You then state this:
Even accepting his Bayesian analysis (which I do not) does not rescue his position however, because he is arguing that if most beliefs are false then all beliefs are false, which is unworthy of someone who has never taken a philosophy course, much less a professor.

I found no evidence that he ever stated the above in any of his 3 articles… please supply the reference…

I may have more to write later when I re-analyze the latter part of your post… that’s all for now…

Evan said...

Jaceppe, thanks for taking the time to try to respond. I appreciate your effort and I'll try to elucidate my points better for you in order.

1. You say:

Finally, it is more the case that his presuppositions don’t conform to your interpretation of the evidence… that’s hardly the same thing as the evidence.

Sorry but that's not going to fly with me. Earlier in my life, my presuppositions were that Plantinga was right. Many of the other ex-believers on this site are the same. I wnet to schools that only taught the Bible as a source of truth. I was a believer and a Christian and a young-earth Creationist. If the evidence pointed to those facts, I'd still be a believer. I presupposed his belief and still found it wanting when it had to interact with the evidence of the world we live in.

Plantinga wants to have it both ways by claiming that he has some method to determine when the Bible is accurate and when it's not so accurate, but he sure is stingy with what this method is, so I simply don't accept that his presupposition is somehow ironclad against all evidence. It's not and the evidence to support such a presupposition fails.

2. You say:

I couldn’t find in his 3 articles any reference point for your comment that he stated the above… could you please provide the article reference

Here you go:

One can't rationally accept both evolution and naturalism; one can't rationally be an evolutionary naturalist.

Reason and evidence show that evolution is true. According to Plantinga, this proves that evolution is not true. Your brain is lying to you when it shows you that evolution is true therefore and your brain is just an adapted organ that can't show you the truth.

Again he says:

It really doesn't matter what kind of beliefs the neurophysiology produces; what matters is that it cause adaptive behavior; and this it clearly does, no matter what sort of beliefs it also produces. Therefore there is no reason to think that if their behavior is adaptive, then it is likely that their cognitive faculties are reliable.

Hope that sorts it out for you. Plantinga believes that a brain unaided by God cannot get to true beliefs.

3. You say:

This is not a correct view of his belief in reading these 3 articles. Rather, regarding the age of the earth, he thinks the evidence that the Bible actually teaches a young earth view is not as strong as the natural evidences that it is old and, as such, it is compatible to believe in both the Scriptural record and an old earth. I.E. He believes there is no contradiction in holding both of these views… That is a radically different statement than saying he thinks the Bible is incorrect on the age of the earth.

Let Plantinga prove his point to the young-earth creationists who account for the majority of his own co-religionists and about 40% of the US population. Answers in Genesis has the same God-given truth detector Plantinga does. Why do they come to such a radically different conclusion. Beyond that, why won't Plantinga even call their beliefs stupid or misguided. They differ radically about a clearly obvious set of facts (the age of the earth) yet Plantinga thinks it's a minor quibble. Triablogue and AiG and many other YEC's would beg to differ. And Plantinga says that is fine because they prayed about it. They believe they are teaching what the Bible says. So does Plantinga. How does God let them decide who's right, since he's the only source of truth?

It's just a bizarre proposition to try to defend.

4. I state specifically in the text of my blog post that I don't believe that our nervous systems evolved to create true beliefs. However, unlike Plantinga, I do not think that this rules out the possibility that with critical thinking skills and philosophical rigor they are incapable of true beliefs, which he believes. If it is possible that human brains can arrive at ANY true beliefs assuming naturalism, then it is possible that some beliefs can be shown to be more true than others, and using those beliefs as a foundation -- knowledge about truth can be created.

For Plantinga's critique to be valid, it must be not just unlikely but nearly impossible for naturalistically evolved brains to have true beliefs, which I think is absurd.

As for lower animals, Darwin is simply wrong about this and is a prisoner of the ideas of his time.

Darwin got some things wrong. This is one of them. It's telling that the rest of biology has acknowledged this but you and Plantinga think somehow that Darwin was some sort of deity. He wasn't, and he was quite capable of error.

21st century biology has corrected this error, but Plantinga reveals his ignorance by using this formulation.

5. You say:

Well, I haven’t considered whether or not there is a “natural” logical connection. However, since Plantinga is a Christian he has access to Scriptural evidence that you do not.

Nope. He has no scriptures that I don't have access to. I have read his scriptures. They have nothing compelling in them. After reviewing them carefully for 2 decades of my life, I conclude they are texts written by men. This is also something, if pushed, I would imagine Plantinga also believes. But he also must believe that through the magic of prayer and God they can be more than that. It's the magic part you and he can't explain. And that's the problem. There is no magic.

6. You say:

I understand that other religious systems may have different initial premises and explanations, but Plantinga is a Christian Philosopher… and, these 3 articles are written specifically in relation to unguided evolution and naturalism and not relating Christian theism to other theistic explanations.

But Plantinga is simply acting as if those systems don't exist and aren't worthy of inclusion in his probability calculus. Thus he has only two possibilities to consider which is artificially low. He does this so that the probability that his ideas will look likely is artificially high. Probability should not care what you believe. If you go to the roulette wheel and believe you will get a 00, it will not make the 00 more likely. Therefore, although he is a Christian, he is also a philosopher. To make this kind of basic mistake as a philosopher makes him either a bad philosopher or a non-philosophizing apologist like Dr. Wm. Lane Craig.

7. You say:

Which article are you referring to in your above comment? I want to reread the section you are responding to here.

This one:

But as we've seen, that gives us no reason to think the belief true (and none to think it false). We must suppose, therefore, that the belief in question is about as likely to be false as to be true; the probability of any particular belief's being true is in the neighborhood of 1/2. But then it is massively unlikely that the cognitive faculties of these creatures produce the preponderance of true beliefs over false required by reliability. If I have 1,000 independent beliefs, for example, and the probability of any particular belief's being true is 1/2, then the probability that 3/4 or more of these beliefs are true (certainly a modest enough requirement for reliability) will be less than 10-58. And even if I am running a modest epistemic establishment of only 100 beliefs, the probability that 3/4 of them are true, given that the probability of any one's being true is 1/2, is very low, something like .000001.7

He spends more time on this calculus at this place.

8. You say:

I found no evidence that he ever stated the above in any of his 3 articles… please supply the reference…

He does not explicitly say it and I suppose I should admit that. But it is certainly the implication of the following section of text:

For example, we assume that our cognitive faculties are reliable. We can't sensibly assume that about this population; after all, the whole point of the argument is to show that if evolutionary naturalism is true, then very likely we and our cognitive faculties are not reliable. So reflect once more on what we know about these creatures. They live in a world in which evolutionary naturalism is true. Therefore, since they have survived and reproduced, their behavior has been adaptive. This means that the neurophysiology that caused or produced that behavior has also been adaptive: it has enabled them to survive and reproduce. But what about their beliefs? These beliefs have been produced or caused by that adaptive neurophysiology; fair enough. But that gives us no reason for supposing those beliefs true. So far as adaptiveness of their behavior goes, it doesn't matter whether those beliefs are true or false.

I would argue that if he does not believe the beliefs are true, he must, using his dichotomous probability calculus above, decide they are false, but he does not state this explicitly. Do you see a third possibility? Is there some way for an adapted organ to have non-true beliefs that are also not false?

Jaceppe said...

Evan,

Thanks for your quick response...I shall read it in more detail as well as continue further consideration on the latter part of your first post when I can..

I'll give more comments after I can do both of those...

Thanks again...

zilch said...

Jaceppe- Evan has already answered well. I'd just like to ride my hobby horse on a couple of points, if the two of you don't mind. You say:

Rather, regarding the age of the earth, he thinks the evidence that the Bible actually teaches a young earth view is not as strong as the natural evidences that it is old and, as such, it is compatible to believe in both the Scriptural record and an old earth. I.E. He believes there is no contradiction in holding both of these views… That is a radically different statement than saying he thinks the Bible is incorrect on the age of the earth.

No disrespect intended, but huh? At least the way I parse that statement, Plantinga (according to you) is saying that the natural evidence points to the Earth being old, but Scripture teaches a young Earth: how can this not be a contradiction? That is, unless one subscribes to the White Queen's philosophy, and believes nine impossible things before breakfast. This may constitute a "leap of faith", but in the context of rational discussion, it fails miserably.

You say:

The frog in catching the fly is reacting to sensory stimuli: hunger pangs, sight, etc; electrochemical reactions occur; muscles react; tongue shoots out and fly is caught and consumed. The frog is required to “believe” nothing in this. Beliefs are thoughts about things; they are not adaptive behavior.

So frogs are incapable of ratiocination? How do you know this? And what makes you think that beliefs are not a part of adaptive behavior? The fact is, as I already said, "beliefs" are evolved entities, and there's no place one can draw a hard and fast line around what constitutes a "belief", and what does not. The more so, as we do not have much insight into the brains of other animals, and cannot say what form their thoughts take.

This strikes me as a typical kind of category error made by people, such as Plantinga, who are well versed in philosophy and its ways of dealing with words and concepts, but have little idea about what is going on in real animals and their brains. In short, it's a case of defining words based on some sort of philosophical or religious ideals, derived from texts and introspection, and applying logical
transformations to them. The problem with this approach is that one is not guaranteed to come up with results that have anything to do with the real world, which is not constrained by ideal principles, but rather by what actually happens. Imho, this is precisely what is wrong with a great deal of philosophy, and religion: they take the word as their starting point, not the world.

This is well illustrated by the quote from Plantinga that Evan provided. Evan has already given his reasons for rejecting Plantinga's reasoning- I'd just like to amplify upon them. Here's Plantinga:

But as we've seen, that gives us no reason to think the belief true (and none to think it false). We must suppose, therefore, that the belief in question is about as likely to be false as to be true; the probability of any particular belief's being true is in the neighborhood of 1/2. But then it is massively unlikely that the cognitive faculties of these creatures produce the preponderance of true beliefs over false required by reliability. If I have 1,000 independent beliefs, for example, and the probability of any particular belief's being true is 1/2, then the probability that 3/4 or more of these beliefs are true (certainly a modest enough requirement for reliability) will be less than 10-58. And even if I am running a modest epistemic establishment of only 100 beliefs, the probability that 3/4 of them are true, given that the probability of any one's being true is 1/2, is very low, something like .000001.7

This is what happens when one decouples reason from the real world. Plantinga's mathematics may be correct (although I'm not sure what that last fraction is supposed to be), but as they say, "garbage in, garbage out", no matter how accurately calculated. In the first place, Plantinga ignores the fact that there is no hard and fast line that separates "beliefs" from "instincts" or "reactions". In the second place: where does he get the idea that "the probability of any particular belief's being true is in the neighborhood of 1/2"? This is just a number pulled out of a hat; and although mutation is indeed "pulling numbers from a hat" in a restricted sense (the hierarchic structure of our embryology, as elucidated by Evo-Devo, ensures that mutations have structured effects), natural selection is anything but a chance process, and assigning a value of "1/2" to the likelihood that a particular "belief" is true is not only ill-defined, but most unlikely on the face of it. Like the Bayesian calculations I've often seen for the likelihood that God exists, it is not based on evidence from the real world, but simply conjured up out of nowhere.

One last point, Jaceppe. Again, Evan already dealt with this, but it is so stereotypical of believers, it deserves to be emphasized. You say:

I guess you think Plantinga shouldn’t quote the Father of Your Faith and use language that Darwin used...

Darwin been superseded in much of what he said, as Evan pointed out. I find it a bit touching, and revealing of the mindset of believers, that they often argue thusly: Darwin is the Father of Our (atheists, evilutionists) Faith, or at least a saint, and thus anything he said or did that is wrong or bad means that we are also wrong or bad. This is indeed the way religion works: something is true or not, depending not upon reasoning about evidence, but upon who said it: what God said is true. But science doesn't work that way, or at least ideally shouldn't work that way: something is true (provisionally, of course!) or not depending not upon who said it, but upon its fit with the real world.

So although Darwin is greatly admired (and even revered) by many, that does not mean that his word is Gospel. That only happens in religion, where authority trumps evidence. Evolutionary theory is not a religion: it is subject to revision, like all sciences, when the evidence demands it.

Anonymous said...

Small note: To attribute Bayesian Probability to Bayes is in error. My memory fails me, but I believe that Bayes' theorem was used for epistemological purposes by Laplace, not by Bayes. The theorem was adopted, subtly changed, and the name kept.

Anonymous said...

I would argue that if he does not believe the beliefs are true, he must, using his dichotomous probability calculus above, decide they are false, but he does not state this explicitly. Do you see a third possibility? Is there some way for an adapted organ to have non-true beliefs that are also not false?

Yes. The third option is to suspend judgment: to neither believe nor disbelieve. This is what's involved in Plantinga's claim that the probability that our cognitive faculties are reliable on the conjunction of naturalism and evolution is low *or inscrutable*.

zilch said...

anon- you say:

This is what's involved in Plantinga's claim that the probability that our cognitive faculties are reliable on the conjunction of naturalism and evolution is low *or inscrutable*.

Where does Plantinga say this? I looked at all the links Evan posted, and was unable to find it. In any case, there is a fourth option: to realize that "beliefs" cannot be cleanly separated from "instincts", and that categorizing beliefs as being either "true" or "false" is misleading: all beliefs about the real world (not beliefs within systems of formal logic) are models which are more or less accurate, not "true" or "false".

The ability to form increasingly accurate beliefs about the world is of obvious survival value, since we, and other animals, act on our beliefs, and put time and effort into them. So while we also can be misled, and our beliefs are not entirely trustworthy in lots of well-mapped ways, there is no reason to suppose that they are completely arbitrary.

And this is precisely where Plantinga goes wrong in his analysis. He assumes, with no evidence whatsoever, that there is a line that can be drawn between "adaptive behaviors" and "beliefs", and assumes further that "beliefs" can be uncoupled from "adaptive behavior", and thus take on any form whatsoever without affecting survival value- for instance, he claims that a frog might well imagine that if it catches the right fly, it could turn into a prince, as long as that doesn't affect what the frog actually does. This is tantamount to claiming that we do not act on our beliefs, so they are invisible to natural selection: that they are just some sort of random background noise (in Plantinga's caricature of naturalistic thought).

Nonsense. Anybody with any knowledge of animal behavior, and evolution, knows that the ability to reason, to form beliefs (those leaves are bad, if I hide I can catch more prey, etc.) has fitness value, and it only has fitness value if it works: and that means no "if I catch that fly I will become a Prince" beliefs, but rather ones that model the real world well enough to give an edge for survival. This makes his claim for beliefs (in lack of a rational God) having a "1/2" chance of being "true" absurd.

Anonymous said...

The appeal to C.S. Lewis as a great thinker all by itself should cause Dr Plantinga to lose tenure.

IrishFarmer said...

As a courtesy, Evan, I'd like to point out that I wrote a response to your post over at Atheism is Dead. I'm not going to link to it, because I don't want it to appear that I'm using your site to advertise. I'm sure you know how to find it.

zilch said...

Hey, IrishFarmer, I'll link your post.

I already sent a reply to AiD last night, but it hasn't shown up yet. Anyone interested in following the discussion there will have to be very patient- it sometimes takes days for them to get around to moderating the posts, and sometimes a week goes by without a single post or reply.

zilch said...

If anyone's still interested in this topic, there is a discussion going on now at the like I posted above. Maybe they are all back from vacation.