Did Jesus Have a Functioning Set of Nuts (Testicles)?

What I find totally odd in the Gospels is that Jesus, who is held up by the evangelical community as the true example for the ideal man (one which all Christian males should pattern their own lives after) has no sexual drive; none at all. One would think that the part of Jesus that was totally 100% human would have been influenced by the male hormone testosterone.

Fact is, that not only Jesus, but all the males (and a few females) who followed him, be they as few as 12 or as many as 70 (Luke 10: 1), all seem to be asexual as well. If the Gospels wanted to portray the real facts, the reality of his very human nature must have at least given Jesus some type of sexual drive which had an emotional outlet. Moreover, Jesus’ disciples who Jesus often rebukes for not having faith (Matt. 6: 30, 8: 26, 16: 8) are portrayed as faithless men who, never-the-less, maintained an asexual life totally happy about preaching a coming Kingdom they never understood anyway.

To complicate matters, in Matthew 5:28 Jesus states in: “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” is very problematic for the heterosexual male, but easy to understand if one is indeed gay. As the late New Testament scholar John A. T. Robinson 1919 – 1983 (Lecture at Trinity College, Cambridge and author of “Honest to God” 1963) once told a student who had ask him about Jesus’ hard statement in the above verse on adultery said: “Committing adultery in your heart is not as much fun as actually doing it in life.”

Christian history tells us that Christian men did struggle with a New Testament which portrays the ideal man as asexual be it Paul (“it is better for a man never to touch a woman” 1 Corinthians 7: 1), to Jesus (For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake." Matt. 19: 12), or the Book of Revelation where the 144,000 were undefiled by women (Rev. 14:4).

However, unlike the sexual denial in the New Testament, the Hebrew Bible endorses not only polygamy, but considers concubines and prostitutes as normal sexual outlets for the male. Books like the Song of Solomon are so highly erotic to the point where Roland Murphy (who authored the commentary in Fortress’ Press Hermeneia Commentary series) felt that it had it’s origins in an ancient Israelite brothel.

We are told by Eusebius in Book IV of his Church History that Origen castrated himself (based on Jesus’ statement in Matt. 19:12) to keep himself pure. We are also told in personal works such as those of Saint Anthony (251-356) in Life of Anthony, written in Greek around 360 by Athanasius of Alexandria (as well as writings from other desert monks) that they struggled daily with their sexual desires which they often would label as Satanic. Even the great orthodox theologian Augustine (354 - 430) Bishop of Hippo, who, before his conversion, had fathered children with other women stated after his Christian conversion that “Sometimes I find myself reaching out to scratch the itching sore of sin.”

Paul boastfully states in I Corth. 10:13 “No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” Yet this is no more based on reality than Jesus’ own extreme views on sex and adultery.

The reality of Jesus in the Gospel tradition is, in fact, not reality. This asexual Jesus who is followed by asexual disciples (though Peter is said to have had a wife, he apparently had little use for her after he met a man named “Jesus”) has caused human sexuality to be one subject ministers and priests just don’t talk about. And when the frailties of "sinful human nature" are perched, churches almost always bury their wounded leaders who follow the natural command of God in Genesis to be “fruitful and multiply”.

On the other hand, the denial of human sexuality has damaged the lives of innocent children and their priest as in the case of the scandal in the Catholic Church in American.

So, does it matter if Jesus had a functioning set of nuts? It matters in the fact of reality; both the natural drives of life and fact of total forgiveness.

85 comments:

Harry McCall said...

I guess you could put it another way: Does anyone here think that Jesus ever gave himself "The Right hand of fellowship"?

bart willruth said...

Sexual drive may be hereditary. In the case of Jesus, his Father only did it once in all of eternity. Perhaps His son inherited the same infinite lack of libido.

Harry McCall said...

Thanks God for Viagra!

Is Viagra a sin?...that is the 100mg tablets?

WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) Would Jesus have taken a Viagra tablet?

I have never seen a miracle healing evangelist heal anyone with an "Erectile Dysfunction". I’m not sure as to why. Maybe it’s just something the evangelist just does NOT want to “lay hands” on! Look out! Glory!

Brother Crow said...

Fun post, Harry. Its interesting that throughout history Jesus has been portrayed artistically as a very effiminate, androgynous being. No bulge, limp wrist, very smooth features. I think that christianity has a very screwed up (pun intended) view of sex. Of course, if its seed bed is the harsh tribal culture of middle east, one can understand why. Women are bone bags, used for mating and pleasure...well, mating...prostitutes are used for pleasure. Many many comments and intelligent observations have been made on this site about christianity's abuse of women and perverse sexual worldview.

But Jesus has no nuts? He was godman. He can't be tainted with sexual urges. He, like angels, has no sexual nature. That is why he has no children. Except those who are born of the spirit. Who are like wise nutless. Balls are in short supply in the christian church.

By the way, I think Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was homosexuality. Seriously. Certainly you see the visual metaphor? And he was always traveling with some guy. And there was always so much drama around him. And he enjoyed the company of older women. And he had a thing for Timothy. Yep...gay.

Harry McCall said...

I remember the Hollywood reports about Rock Hudson. He was held up by the moral religious community in the 1960’s as the standard for the ideal Hollywood film star. One report stated that while Hollywood was full of debauchery, sex and drugs, the only thing you will find on “Rock Hudson’s wholesome breath is mother’s milk” (what ever that was…sperm?). Little did they know what was happening at Hudson’s Hollywood mansion!

I certainly feel the Historical Jesus was the same. A single male who lived his whole life with other single males who attacked anyone looking with “lust” upon women had to have a sexual outlet in some form.

Funny thing is, that while Jesus forgave women caught in adultery and told them to “go and sin no more”; he never once forgave a gay man even though the punishment for adultery and homosexuality was the same nor did he attack gays as Paul does in Romans (and yes, Paul may have been gay to as many commentaries state about his attack in Romans). I feel Jesus felt there was nothing wrong with the gay life style.

I would like to have asked Jesus about a man looking upon a man with lust in his heart and why he never felt the need to tell the homosexual to “go and sin no more” as he demand the women to do. Maybe it would have been the pot calling the kettle black!

Shygetz said...

I never understood Christianity's focus on celibacy. Studying religion comparatively, most celibacy cults tend to die out fairly quickly due to what John likes to call the Outsider Test; religions propogate themselves most efficiently from parent to child. It's really quite intriguing to think what might have happened if Paul had written 1 Corinthians 7 to be more in line with Matthew 5:28. In 1 Cor, Paul says "if his passions are stong...let him marry"; if Paul had instead been consistent with the later Gospel in telling his followers not to have strong passions, what would have happened to Christianity?

Harry McCall said...

Skygetz, I strongly believe the earliest traditions of the Gospels give us an end time prophet (Jesus) who expected world to end in their life time ( St. Paul toAlbert Schweitzer to Bart Ehrman & Dale Allison).

With the end of the age at hand, marriage and children would be useless. This was simply an extension to the sect that wrote the scrolls at Qumran. These Essenes who did have sex with women, but did not let women join the sect.

Does this negate the some 30 to 33 years Jesus lived and his real sexual life; No. If, as some scholars believe, Jesus was originally a member of the Qurman community; I think he may have been forced out over his sexual orientation.

The point of this post (as for as the homosexual issue goes) is that I strongly believe people are born with a genetic sexual orientation and to use the New Testament to attack such people is wrong especially when there is a huge chance that Jesus himself was gay.

Jamie Steele said...

This post proves Total Depravity.

Thanks Harry!

Tor Hershman said...

The best way to find the answer for that question is to watch moi's YouTube film/research

“The Origin of Jesus Christ” Parts I & II


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzY2bVsZK5s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sckuqPulRGk


.

the agnostic rationalist said...

When I was a teenager I had a tremendous amount of guilt because I was very Christian and used to wonder about things like this and if he ever had any other body functions.....

I'm glad I'm not the only one that ever had that thought.

Of course when I got older and deconverted I realized he was just like anyone else.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Jamie Steele ~ "This post proves Total Depravity."

[Echo...Echo...Echo!]

Steven Bently said...

No nuts Jesus?

Jesus 'supposedly' was whipped, spit on, flogged, ridiculed, cursed, teased, made to wear thorns, so he turned the other cheek, wasn't that the cowardice way out?

Does somehow being a nutless coward save souls? Isn't that the basis of religious teachings, to be a religious coward? Turn the other cheek!
Not standing up for yourself, when you feel that you're being screwed over for the sake of a religious body count?

Cowards can be easily controlled by threats and promises.

Cole said...

Good Point Bently.

If being humble and following Christ means loving my enemies by turning the other cheek while I'm being beaten, spat upon, and abused, then I want no part of it.

To hell with Christ.

Steven Bently said...

While in church, you must humble yourself in fear before the Lord, or we'll throw the Bible at you, BTW someone quickly pass the collection plate..wink..wink.

Harry McCall said...

To Jamie Steele and Harvey Burnett:

Please don't be so judgmental on Jesus. I do not think he was "Totally Depraved" as you two claim. He did do some good even if he had faults. Please give the man a break!

Trou said...

Some people are uncomfortable thinking about Jesus in a human way. Why? That's part of the theology that you choose to believe. Other sects didn't think that Jesus was human and so not prone to human tendencies. A decision was made nearly 350 years after Christ supposedly lived that Jesus was fully man and also fully God. That became the orthodox position.
Tough for believers who can't conceive of a fully human God. You bought into it now deal with it. Deal with the sickness, the growing pains the hormones and the throwing up. Deal with the morning boners and the wet dreams. That's what being a human male involves.
You can call it depraved but then that would make Jesus depraved because these things he must have experienced. If he didn't then he wasn't fully human and it is written by Paul that he experienced all the things that we have and so he can bear us up when we are tempted. So decide whether he was fully human and had raging male hormones and a nut sack or was he an androgynous, asexual creature that can't understand what we go through.
Tough choice. That's why I think this is a good exercise. It shows just how stupid the concept of god/man is. Any tinkering with this concept screws with the truth of the scriptures. If he was not fully man then you’re not saved and if he was fully man then he probably got boners and maybe even masturbated or at least washed his penis very thoroughly a few times.
Good luck sorting those thoughts out. LOL

Harry McCall said...

Thanks Trou. My points exactly!

This 100% God and 100% man is just the old “Shell Game” where the illogical theology tries to be quicker than the logical brain.

Even IF we allow Jesus to have the Trinity advantage, the fact that Peter and a number of other apostles were fisherman would have them thinking and cussing like sailors. I have never seen a group of secular men behave like monks and his disciples were no exception!

Then too, the funny thing is that the Gospels are more honest that Christians are today. Jesus was called a “wined bibber” by the religious Jews and he and his disciples always seem to find a prostitute or some wild woman that some how needed to be “forgiven”. (The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. Matt 11:19).


Fact is, whether the Christian community likes it or not, the 100% human Jesus picked his nose, produced stinking farts, jerked his gherkin and enjoyed some good sexual jokes.

Listen, if you Christians want to play the Trinity game; you can NOT have your cake and eat it too!

Jamie Steele said...

Harry,

Your post and response is like arguing or reasoning with a Middle School little boy.

"be not deceived God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows he shall also reap."

Good luck Harry!

Harry McCall said...

Christian apologist are great to use philosophy to defend the Trinity. Philosophy soon becomes theology and it isolates the 100% divine Jesus from the 100% human Jesus who has normal “sinful” functions and drives of the human body and brain.

I believe strongly if we non-Christians force these apologist to face and accept what they preach, that is, a REAL 100% human Jesus, the 100% divine part will run for its life!

Robert_B said...

If the immaculate conception were to be true rather than myth, then Jesus would be a haploid organism. Since organisms that reproduce sexually, acquire on half their complement of chromosomes from each of their parents, Jesus would have only had 23 chromosomes. If it were possible for a human pregnancy to come to term in the monoploid condition, then the resultant offspring would be genetically like the Mommy. Therefore, if the supernatural Jesus of the Gospels existed, she would not have had any testicles.

Harry McCall said...

Jamie Steele, exactly what bodily functions is a 100% human Jesus allowed to have or is it a sin to discussion Jesus’ 100% human bodily functions?

Get real here! You and your fellow righteous Christians have “pious-ed” a 100% human Jesus right out of existence.

So, lets start at a 100% human Jesus and for every 100% human bodily function he did not have like us mortals, lets deduct some percentage points. I’ll be generous, and only remove 3.8% for each body function you feel he did not have like us normal humans.

Here’s my list so please cross out any bodily function Jesus did not have as a 100% human man: (I know you don’t know the real Jesus, but let say he was mostly like the majority of us humans)

A. Wet Dreams; B. Colds and Flues every winter ; C. Sexual thoughts (either gay or straight);

D. Picking his nose; E. Bad breath; F. Bad teeth / a rotten tooth; G. Nightmares; H. Morning boner;

I. Indigestion; J. Needed vision correction; K. Gas; L. Over weight or under weight; M. Balding;

N. Constipation; O. Balding / hair loss; P. Diarrhea / food poisoning; Q. Nervousness; R. Depression;

S. Stinking rectum / hemorrhoids; T. High blood pressure; U. Acne as a teenager; V. Bucked teeth;

W. High / Low blood sugar; X. Alleges; Y. Warts; Z. Cold sores.

These are just 26 right off the top of my head. So even if you reject 13 (50%) of the ones you think keeps Jesus from being “God in the flesh”, you still have to reconstruct a fully 100% human Jesus who is now only 50% human.

Know what? I could, in a logical discussion, do more damage to any evangelical church in one hour that you could repair in 20 years of apologetic preaching.

Example: 10 years ago I challenged the pastor of Faith Free Presbyterian Church (Rev. Carnes) right here in Greenville to put his money where his big mouth was. I told him on the phone I would debate not only him, but his whole board of Elders and they could have a month in prayer to God for divine help. Plus, if they thought it would help them win the debate, I would claim Satan since the Bible clearly teaches that Christ will help the righteous defeat Satan. His response: “You’ll not get in this church and make those statements.” At least he knew when to avoid defeat.

The last time I heard of him on the radio, he was still claiming “All things are possible with Jesus.”…including defeat in a debate!

Trou said...

robert,
Maybe Jesus, being God himself, boned Mary before he was ever born. So he was father to himself. However, he would only be half god because Mary would contribute half of the necessary genetic material.
Jeez, the more I think about it the sillier the whole thing gets.
Maybe I can accept it on faith but how do you believe something that you aren't sure even makes any sense at all. Is it called faith if you just try not to think about confusing theological intricacies?

DingoDave said...

"No nuts Jesus?"
LOL :D Now that's a keeper!

But seriously, maybe he had them chopped them off, just like he told his followers to do if they found that they couldn't control themselves.
After all, isn't Jesus supposed to have said, "there are some men who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven", and that "those who can accept it, should accept it"?

I must confess that I find it hard to picture the gospel Jesus with a raging boner, so self castration might have been an obvious way for him to prevent such a distressing thing from ever happening.

Anyway, if he really was as great a leader as many people like to make him out to have been, then surely he would have led by example wouldn't he? Surely he wouldn't have been a "do as I say, not as I do" type of leader would he?
I wonder whether he had a squeaky voice? Perhaps that was one of the reasons why the authorities didn't take him quite as seriously as he probably would have liked.

God I love theology, it's so much fun! If it weren't for theology, we might never get an opportunity to ponder these kinds of manifestly batshit insane ideas. :D

Jamie Steele said...

"Know what? I could, in a logical discussion, do more damage to any evangelical church in one hour that you could repair in 20 years of apologetic preaching."

Wow Harry you are my Hero.


5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is Lord! Bow the knee

Martin Gamble said...

Amen to Jamie Steele's comment!

Manifesting Mini Me (MMM) said...

Harry, I don't know what it is about you that inspires a sense of protection within me but because of these feelings of protection for you, I don't take offense at your post - I recognize it to be symptomatic of your not knowing how well loved and valued you are by God. I sincerely hope your focus and curiosity for all things natural is allowed to be gratified so that you can progress and mature towards a different Way.

Harry McCall said...

Takes for your kind comment mmm. If I had to define a true Christian believer, you would be my example.

Now to Jamie Steele and the rest of the clergy in the professional “Religion Business”. Your use of the pericope of Philippians’ 2: 6 - 11 is the exact reason the religious Jews rejected Jesus and why Paul was beaten and driven out of the synagogue.

It has been 2,000 years and not one single person has yet to "bow the knee" to Jesus.

As to your use of the New Testament and theology; as the old saying goes: I’ve heard the wind blow before!

DingoDave said...

All this 'knee bowing' business was supposed to have taken place nearly 2000 years ago.
Isn't it time to wake up and smell the coffee?
Face the facts gentlemen. Jesus is NOT coming back. Deal with it.

Jamie Steele said...

not one single person has yet to "bow the knee" to Jesus.


I HAVE!

Steven Bently said...

"10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, "

I thought it was "will bow, not should"

and every tongue "will confess"

Now I'm confused, if every tongue will confess, and every knee will bow, then that's 100% cooperation, then all people that ever lived will be saved.

But now you come along and say should which is it, should or will?

Can't you xtains make up your minds?

You xtians are poor stewards of gods divine holy words.

Harry McCall said...

“ἵνα ἐν ὁ ὄνομα Ἰησοῦς πᾶς γόνυ κάμπτω ἐπουράνιος καί ἐπίγειος καί καταχθόνιος” Phillippians 2: 10.

Jamie Steele, this is used by Paul in reference to Jesus’ return and not to an individual in prayer.

You maybe an eager Christian, but your interpretation has jumped the gun on this verse!

Drow Ranger said...

Isn't it time to wake up and smell the coffee?
Face the facts gentlemen. Jesus is NOT coming back. Deal with it.

Whence cometh your Revelation From On High™ there, Dingo Dan...err Dave? You'd have to be OMNISCIENT to be sure of that. ;)

Dan Marvin said...

Speaking of sexual drive. How does a living being (male) evolve from NON-LIFE when his evolution is DEPENDANT upon sexually reproducing with another of his kind (female). He wants to evolve, but needs her to do it, but hey, she's not around anywhere YET ! She hasn’t evolved yet herself. So anyway, he's a male, but hey, Why did he become a male ? Did he have some kind of cosmic foreknowledge that Female would be arriving in the future ??? But hey, as soon as she evolves he'll be ready for her. But her evolution is dependent upon reproducing with him, H-m-m-m ? ? So these male and female living organisms had to have evolved from a MALE/FEMALE combined organism. That's right, they had to have evolved from non-life into a two in one, male/female, living creature, and then this creature had to divide into two individual beings, and then continue to evolve sexually dependent upon each other. Ya right, so anyway, they continue to do their little evolving thing, as they then pass through monkeyville, on into cavemantown, and they finally arrive in New York city where they've been known to commit suicide. All without any ultimate purpose. Does that make any sense to you ?

Here’s one that defies all atheistic logic,

If someone where to kill the child of an atheist right before her eyes, she would feel a multitude of tormenting emotions. Yet in a world apart from God there is no such thing as MORALS, there is no such thing as Right and Wrong. And that’s a fact. Therefore this murder could not be considered as something WRONG. Because apart from God, there is no such thing as something being “WRONG”. WHY then, if her existence is merely a product of evolution, LIFE coming from non-life, (no connection to any God). Why then would she be subject to any of these emotions that she now has to suffer ? Why should she be subject to hating the person who killed her child, when that murderer did not do anything wrong. Does the earth have a right to get angry at a meteorite when it smashes into the earth ? Duh. Then without question, and an atheist CANNOT argue against this, when two humans evolve out of nothing, apart from a moral God, they have absolutely NO RIGHT to get angry at anything that that other person might do to them. Will any atheist agree to this PERFECTLY true and logical reasoning ? Never.

Hey, here's an interesting one,

It's a proven fact that with ALL people, across all genders and races, the consequences / telltales of when a person lies, are that;

They experience sweaty palms.

They experience induced swallowing.

Their heart rate increases.

Their faces turn red.

They avoid eye contact.

They speak more quickly, etc. etc. (The same old, same old with everyone human being on the planet. Except of course for sociopaths and those who have perfected evil deception.

O.k., ... so these are physical reactions (that cross all humanity), that occur when people lie, keeping in mind that none of them are at all based upon comfort, self esteem, or integrity,

So, ... If man just evolved, apart from God, in a world where lying cannot be considered as something wrong, ... What on earth are these characteristics that are connected to lying, all about ? HUH ? ... Is evolution really your friend or what ? Did evolution curse you with characteristics that POINT to you as being a LIAR ? ? ?

(Here's a hint, Lying is a spiritual event. It's not merely a physical action. Lying is an offense against God. When His creations lie, He is ashamed of His creation and simply separates Himself. Therefore He has constructed us with built in sensors that perhaps we just might someday, in our blind little, self seeking minds, finally get the big picture.)

No really, think about this,

A person is suddenly taken from earth and is placed upon another planet, similar to the earth, but the one big difference is that they do not know anyone there, and they have no relatives there. This whole thing happens to them but they're not quite sure why. So without doubt, now, the next thing they would do would be to begin spending the rest of their life trying to figure out; 1. How they got there and; 2. Why they are there. For a FACT this would be the exact actions of EVERY person that this might ever happen to. You cannot deny this. So now ask yourself, Why is it that just because people are born on earth and slowly grow up here, that so many of them just really don't need those 2 questions answered with concrete and logical, answers ? Let me tell you why. Because you don’t want people to hate you. You want people to Love You. And God is exactly the same. He wants people to choose to love Him. And if people are more interested in the TEMPORARY – FUTILE created little trinkets of this world, always living for themselves, and paying more attention to stuffing the chocolate cake into their mouths rather than thanking the One who gave them the cake. Then those two questions actually become a hindrance to their life. Because their life belongs only to them. They become the ultimate ruler. And those 2 questions are only roadblocks to what they want, rather than stepping stones to a Paradise that will make every atheist cry with despair as to how they could have possibly been so blind. If you’re an atheist, don’t continue to cheat yourself. Because all atheists are like a small child who honestly believes that their holding onto to their baby doll, will always be best. Even better than holding a boyfriends hand on a beach in Hawaii.

Don’t continue to follow Darwin, because you can rest assured, that right now, Darwin is begging to be able to return to earth and be a preacher.

These were taken from STRANGE HUMAN LOGIC

Brother Crow said...

jamie steele, you have no more bowed the knee to Jesus than you have participated in the earth-shaking, sky-rolling eschaton. First, Jesus has not been revealed as Lord yet...all you can bow the knee to is a f---ed up religion and religious system and an androgynous male caricature that is meaningless - thank God! - to more and more people.

Here are some questions:
- have you given all that you have to the poor, completely divesting yourself of all material possessions?
- do you live in or own a home?
- do you belong to a church or other religious organization (hmmmm?)?
- have you cut off your right hand, or plucked out your eye?
- have you rejected your father and mother and sisters and brothers?

Those are just a few of the questions that must be answered by anyone who claims to have "bowed the knee" to Jesus as Lord...because those are just a few of the criteria he alledgedly set in the NT. Of course, IMHO, he never really existed anyway, so no big. Bow away to the god who isn't there. Have fun with it. He/she/it will never give you what you want or need. Already has? Yeh, do good with that one too.

DingoDave said...

Drow Ranger wrote:
"Isn't it time to wake up and smell the coffee?
Face the facts gentlemen. Jesus is NOT coming back. Deal with it.
Whence cometh your Revelation From On High™ there, Dingo Dan...err Dave? You'd have to be OMNISCIENT to be sure of that. ;)"

Every prophecy made about Jesus' 'second coming' by the authors of the New Testament predicted his speedy return within the lifetime of those then living. Not one predicted anything like a 2000 year delay. But don't take my word for it, look them up for yourself.

Here are some for starters.

Matt.16
[28] Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Mark.9
[1] And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."

Luke.9
[27] But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

Luke 18
[7] And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
[8] I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily...

Matt.23
[36] Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation.

Matt.24
[34] Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

Luke.21
[32] Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all has taken place.

James 5
[8] You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
[9] Do not grumble, brethren, against one another, that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the doors.

Rev.22
[7] And behold, I am coming soon." Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.
[12] "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.

If terms such as 'speedily', 'at hand', 'coming soon', 'standing at the doors', really means over 2000 years, then these words are rendered meaningless.
In fact it's only by sucking the true meaning out of the words in the Bible, that modern Christians can hold onto any pretence that it's predictions have been fullfilled.

I don't claim to be omniscient. But how long do you keep backing a losing horse before you finally have to admit to yourself that it's never going to be anything more than a broken down old nag, which should finally be set out to pasture for everyone's sake?

Harry McCall said...

Dan Marvin: “Yet in a world apart from God there is no such thing as MORALS, there is no such thing as Right and Wrong. And that’s a fact.”

Have you ever watched a National Geographic show or Animal Planet? Wolves have a set order they follow, so do Elephants, Lions and the higher orders of primates.

Question for you Dan Marvin: As an atheists, I totally reject the morals and ethic of the Bible! Yet, I have never been drunk in my life (not that it’s morally wrong …Jesus drank more wine in a month than I have in 57 years), I have never been arrested, I have had sex with ONLY ONE WOMAN; my wife in 57 years, I have been voted best radio shop employee in the state of S.C. twice, I don’t smoke, and my wife and I have been married 26 years. I have been a “closet atheist” since 1978 and an open atheist since 1988 / 20 years open or better put, 30 years both as a closet atheist and an open atheist.

I will put my moral and ethical life up against at least 98 % of the full time Christian clergy and come out ahead. Just look at the big evangelical Ted Haggard! Now there’s a great evangelical Christian leader for you! And, lets see, Jimmy Swagger (Sexual escapades), Rev. AA. Allen (died as a drunk), Charles Stanley (Divorced), Jim and Tammy Bakker (PTL), Paul Crouch (Trinity Broadcasting Network) accused of being gay (settled a law suit for approaching a male staff member for sex) while attacking the homosexuals community, Oral Roberts claiming God would kill him if he did not get 7 million dollars form his supporters, plus at least once every several months a local minister will face jail time for either a sexual or a criminal conviction.

Dan Marvin, I bet I could put my 57 years on this earth up against your life and come out ahead and you are a Christian! Fact: Have you ever donated an organ to someone who was dying to save their life? This old Godless atheist (who you claim as a fact that has no morals or ethics) did!

In light of your “off the cuff” remark as listed in the opening statement, exactly where is:
“And that’s a fact.”??? Prove it!

Jamie Steele said...

Brother Crow,
Thanks for the Bible study lesson.

But, with all do respect to you, I have bowed the knee to Jesus.

I am not saved by what I have done or will do but by His Grace.

I am sorry you haven't been. You can be.


Harry,

I am an organ donor. Haven't given one yet so you, as a self professed Godless atheist, have one up on me.
You sound like a pretty cool dude even though i think your worldview is jacked up.

Will see who is right in the end.

Dan Marvin said...

DingoDave,

What about John 2:19 " Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Was He talking about an actual Temple made of stone? They all mocked Him until He proved it to be true.

So my question to you is do you know what kingdom is He talking about in those verses like Matthew 16:28. He is talking about Christ's New Covenant Church Kingdom

There are different kingdoms such as Matthew 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. He is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven

Which Kingdom is this? Mark 13:8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains. Thats right, Kingdom of Men

Luke 12:31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. = Old Covenant Messianic Kingdom of David

So Jesus did in fact see the NEW kingdom of God come before they tasted death. It was Christ's New Covenant Church Kingdom

BTW Revelation 22:12 is talking about Jesus on that Day of Judgement.

Harry,

You see very proud and almost arrogant about your moral achievements. Let's take a test then to see if you have Broken God's Moral Laws. Have you broken any of the Commandments? Have you every lied? Have you always honored your mother and father? Have you always kept the first Commandment? If you break just one Commandment you are guilty of all of them.

James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

The law was made as a mirror for us. In the same way, we don't realize what a bad state we are in until we look into the "mirror" of the Ten Commandments.(Romans 7:7) So you see you are just as wicked as the rest of us and deserving of the penalty of breaking His Law. All Laws have a penalty right. What is the penalty? I talk about it here

You don't need to be 'holier then thou' my friend we are all sinners and are in need of a Savior. We are all born into a sinful nature. You don't have to teach a child to be selfish, it's just in his nature.

Take care,
Dan

DingoDave said...

There is so much wrong with Dan Marvin's last post,and at nearly every level, that I hardly know where to begin. But here goes anyway.

"Speaking of sexual drive. How does a living being (male) evolve from NON-LIFE when his evolution is DEPENDANT upon sexually reproducing with another of his kind (female)."

The first living creatures reproduced a-sexually, as do the vast majority of living creatures even today. Only a small fraction of current living species reproduce through sexual reproduction. Back to 'Biology 101' for you Dan!

"He wants to evolve, but needs her to do it, but hey, she's not around anywhere YET !"

Creatures do not 'want to evolve'. The process of changing environmental conditions, coupled with random mutation and natural selection, causes the most well adapted organisms to reproduce faster than their less well adapted bretheren, and in many instances cause the extinction of their less well adapted cousins.

"they had to have evolved from non-life into a two in one, male/female, living creature, and then this creature had to divide into two individual beings, and then continue to evolve sexually dependent upon each other."

This statement is virtually
incoherant, and says nothing about our current understanding of how sexual reproduction might have originally evolved. It is nothing more than a ridiculous caricature. The origins of sexual reproduction haven't yet been fully explained by science, but scientists are working on it, and have discovered significant clues as to how it might have originally come about. I suggest that Dan reads some of the latest research on the subject before he arrogantly asserts that scientists have no clue about how it might have occurred.

"Here’s one that defies all atheistic logic. If someone were to kill the child of an atheist right before her eyes, she would feel a multitude of tormenting emotions. Yet in a world apart from God there is no such thing as MORALS, there is no such thing as Right and Wrong. And that’s a fact. Therefore this murder could not be considered as something WRONG. Because apart from God, there is no such thing as something being “WRONG”."

What an absurd thing to say. You have a disturbing habit of making up your own facts as you go along Dan. I take it to be a sign of arrogance and hubris, rather than any actual knowlege on your part about the subjects in question. Mothers of many species feel a natural desire to nurture their young, as is evidenced all over the animal kingdom. Careless mothers don't tend to produce as many offspring which survive to breeding age, so it's a natural outcome of the evolutionary process that mothers will feel a deep sense of sorrow and loss when one of their children are killed or injured. You are also conveniently ignoring the fact the many species of animals feel no such remorse over the death of their young ones.

People generally view murder as wrong because the vast majority of us object to having either ourselves or our loved ones murdered. It's as simple as that. There's no mystery about it. Morals are are social construct put in place by the people, for the people, in order to protect the people. Anyone who does not respect the behavioral boundaries set by their particular community soon finds themself being ostracised by their community, or incarcerated for the protection of their community. It's called law enforcement. This also is observed all over the animal kingdom, and in all human cultures. Of course there will always be anomalous, mentally unstable individuals who disagree with the boundries set down by their local societies, and attempt to intentionally harm those around them, but they are generally swiftly dealt with by their local community.
Morals also vary between different cultures and time periods. Morals evolve to suit their local environments and cultures. For example, Is slavery always wrong? The Bible doesn't think so, because it endorses the institution, and issues rules governing the slave trade among it's target audience.

" Does the earth have a right to get angry at a meteorite when it smashes into the earth ? Duh."

Duh indeed! What a stupid question to ask in the first place! The Earth, being a bunch of inanimate metal and rock, is in no position to object to any injury it might sustain. However we humans, as sentient beings, who possess the ability to experience pain and suffering would have every right to get angry. In fact if we possessed the technology to blow the meteor into tiny pieces and thus avoid such a calamity, we would do so within the blink of an eye. It would be a 'no brainer'. Speaking of no brainers, I'm beginning to wonder what's between your ears Dan.In fact, I'm beginning to suspect that it's a near perfect vacuum.

"If man just evolved, apart from God, in a world where lying cannot be considered as something wrong, ... What on earth are these characteristics that are connected to lying, all about ? HUH ?...Is evolution really your friend or what ? Did evolution curse you with characteristics that POINT to you as being a LIAR ? ? ?"

That's the first sensible question you've asked so far in your entire posting.
The answer is Yes. Absolutely.
The animal who cannot detect when another animal might be deceiving it will quickly wind up dead, injured, or disposessed.
We humans originally evolved in very small family and tribal communities. The act of being caught lying to our family or close neighbours, carried with it dire penalties for the individual caught lying. We see the same thing in chimpanzee communities when an individual is caught deceiving the group in an inconsiderate attempt to further it's own selfish interests.
Do you know what generally happens to such an individual? Take a wild guess. What happens, is that the rest of group generally beats the living crap out of that individual in order to teach it a lesson. No wonder we have evolved to feel a certain sense of panic when lying to another person. Historically, not only might we have had the shit beaten out of us, but we would lose the trust, respect and esteem of our local community. Getting caught lying can be a vey risky business in a close-knit community. It can devastate an individual's reputation and ruin his entire life.

I think I've had enough for now, my brain feels like it is melting, dealing with all of this nonsense. I'll probably attempt to answer some more of the points asserted in this idiotic post in a future posting of my own.
I apologise if I'm coming across as being overly harsh or critical, but such a concentrated combination of ignorance and arrogance, tends to bring out the worst in me.

DingoDave said...

Harry McCall wrote: "As an atheists, I totally reject the morals and ethic of the Bible! Yet, I have never been drunk in my life (not that it’s morally wrong …Jesus drank more wine in a month than I have in 57 years), I have never been arrested, I have had sex with ONLY ONE WOMAN; my wife in 57 years, I have been voted best radio shop employee in the state of S.C. twice, I don’t smoke, and my wife and I have been married 26 years."

Bloody Hell Harry, you could just about nominate yourself for a sainthood!
I must confess that my life has not been quite as unblemished as yours appears to have been. None the less, to accuse us atheists of having no moral foundation for our lives strikes me as being the height of both ignorance and arrogance.
Unfortunately, ignorance and unswerving certainty often go hand in hand.

DingoDave said...

Dan Marvin wrote:
"So my question to you is do you know what kingdom is He talking about in those verses like Matthew 16:28. He is talking about Christ's New Covenant Church Kingdom"

Dan, are you suggesting that the medieval Catholic Church, with it's accompanying 'Dark Age' was the 'Kingdom of God' on Earth?

If that's your idea of Heaven, then give me Hell, any day!

tigg13 said...

Dan Marvin: "No really, think about this,"

Oh goody!

DM: "A person is suddenly taken from earth and is placed upon another planet, similar to the earth, but the one big difference is that they do not know anyone there, and they have no relatives there."

Ok how similar to Earth? Is there a North America and a South America? Are there blue skies and fruit trees? Is Gordon Ramsey still running Hell's Kitchen? (I like the part about no relatives tho.)

DM: "This whole thing happens to them but they're not quite sure why."

Do they have any clues to go on? Is Rod Serling in any way involved?

DM: "So without doubt, now, the next thing they would do would be to begin spending the rest of their life trying to figure out; 1. How they got there and; 2. Why they are there."

What if they are mentally ill? What if they are autistic? What if they were leading really crappy lives before and now on this new world they are treated like royalty?

DM: "For a FACT this would be the exact actions of EVERY person that this might ever happen to."

Sinse the odds of this ever happening to anyone is a little less than zero, I think its hard to call this a FACT.

DM: "You cannot deny this."

I deny it. (see above)

DM: "So now ask yourself, Why is it that just because people are born on earth and slowly grow up here, that so many of them just really don't need those 2 questions answered with concrete and logical, answers ?"

Ok, how does this have anything to do with your previous meanderings?

You want to know why people who are whisked away to some other planet want to have concrete answers as to how and why they were transported, while people who were born on this world and would have no reason to question why they are here wouldn't need concrete answers.

Do you really need someone to explain this to you?

DM: "Let me tell you why."

Oooo, this ought to be good!

DM: "Because you don’t want people to hate you. You want people to Love You."

???!

How, in the name of Lenard Nimoy, did you make THIS leap in logic?

People don't want concrete answers as to how and why we exist because they are socially insecure?

I think you're speaking for yourself, Dan.

DM: "And God is exactly the same."

Socially insecure?

DM: "He wants people to choose to love Him."

How does this relate to your imaginary alternate world again?

DM: "And if people are more interested in the TEMPORARY – FUTILE created little trinkets of this world, always living for themselves, and paying more attention to stuffing the chocolate cake into their mouths rather than thanking the One who gave them the cake."

Stop it Dan, you're making me hungry.

DM: "Then those two questions actually become a hindrance to their life."

So, what you're saying is, the people who get taken to this false earth want to have concrete answers about how and why they got there because they want people to love them but the people who are born here don't want to deal with these questions because it interfers with their eating habits.

Is this going to start making sense soon?

DM: "Because their life belongs only to them. They become the ultimate ruler."

The people on the other Earth can't become ultimate rulers? You never said that.

DM: "And those 2 questions are only roadblocks to what they want, rather than stepping stones to a Paradise that will make every atheist cry with despair as to how they could have possibly been so blind."

You know, it just occurred to me that atheists (Whom, I am fairly certain, were all born and raised on this planet) constantly search for concrete answers as to how and why we exist.

Oh, wait a minute! It's the atheists who are the people on the other world trying in vain to understand why, while the non-atheists are the ones growing up on this world who are too socially insecure to really give a damn.

(Man, this is tougher than "I'm smarter than a fifth grader".)

DM: "If you’re an atheist, don’t continue to cheat yourself. Because all atheists are like a small child who honestly believes that their holding onto to their baby doll, will always be best."

Wait a minute, I thought the non-atheists were the ones who were socially insecure.

DM: "Even better than holding a boyfriends hand on a beach in Hawaii"

Is this our Hawaii or the alternate Hawaii?

DM: "Don’t continue to follow Darwin, because you can rest assured, that right now, Darwin is begging to be able to return to earth and be a preacher."

Maybe Darwin is on your alternate earth holding his boyfriend's hand in Hawaii?

Ok I've thought about this and I've come the conclusion that if I were beamed to some alternate Earth I probably wouldn't spend more than a month or two trying to figure out why unless I started finding some kind of clues (like Samuel L. Jackson offering me red and blue pills). I would be much more interested in where I could find some good chocolate cake and where to get the cheapest tickets to Hawaii.

I still don't see what this has to do with god being socially insecure, but perhaps if he spent a little less time being invisible he wouldn't find it so hard to make friends.

zilch said...

Yet, I have never been drunk in my life (not that it’s morally wrong …Jesus drank more wine in a month than I have in 57 years), I have never been arrested, I have had sex with ONLY ONE WOMAN; my wife in 57 years, I have been voted best radio shop employee in the state of S.C. twice, I don’t smoke, and my wife and I have been married 26 years."

Jeeze Luise! I'll have to second dingodave's nomination for sainthood, Harry. The only virtue in your list I can lay claim to is not smoking, if by that you mean tobacco. But I'm kind to widows and small children- is that a redeeming factor?

zilch said...

Maybe Darwin is on your alternate earth holding his boyfriend's hand in Hawaii?

tigg 13, if there were a prize here for the most bizarre image, you'd get it for this month. Maybe Darwin secretly vacationed on Maui with Thomas Huxley? I can just see them, hand in hand on the Na Pali coast, admiring the sunset, and marveling at the tameness of the nene.

Harry McCall said...

Dan Marvin wrote: “You see very proud and almost arrogant about your moral achievements. Let's take a test then to see if you have Broken God's Moral Laws. Have you broken any of the Commandments? Have you every lied? Have you always honored your mother and father? Have you always kept the first Commandment? If you break just one Commandment you are guilty of all of them.”

“James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

As the old saying goes Dan, “If you do not toot your own horn, no one else will toot it for you!” So I thought it was time to sound off an atheistic moral and ethical horn.

The only reason I boasting here is that I’m get so tired of the baseless statements that atheist had not morals or ethics (or at least nothing to base them on). And, hell yes, at good is my life if I don’t stand for something? I content to be “proud and almost arrogant about (my) moral achievements” when I can further the atheistic cause.

Jamie steele, there are Mormon and Church of Christ, Jehovah Witnesses and so on within the Christian camp who feel the same about you; or “we will see whose right in the end.” I can not live my life based on religious hope which even the Christian sects can not agree on.

I was raised in a Christian (Lutheran home) where my dad drank 7 nights a week (he would not touch a drop until 7:00 pm and then drank until 10:00 pm and staggered off to bed). My mother also drank with him and had lovers on the side and yet, my dad was on the Lutheran Church council and my mother taught Sunday school for 17 years. I’ve only seen my dad go to bed sober 3 days in my life! Of course, both my parents have been dead many years, but their use and attacks of Christianity on me to justify their life style, plus the same old hypocrisy I saw in seminary, at Bob Jones University and with Christian co-workers convinced me to become a Secular Humanist atheist.

Back in 1972, a co worker posted a sign above his desk which read:

“As I walk by myself,
As I talk to myself;
Myself said unto me:
Look to thyself!
Take care of thyself!
For NO BODY care for thee.”

(Problem is, the man that posted this was fired for stealing from the company.)

DingoDave and Zilch: Yes, you may pray and give your monies to me as the first atheistic saint. (LOL)

No wait. I plan to re-enter Christianity as an atheist who had a vision of Jesus who revealed to me the truths of his Kingdom. I will then go on lecture tours at Christian conferences and retire a multimillionaire.

Hey, lying in is not wrong if it helps promote Christianity. Just look at Ed’s post on the Egyptian Chariot wheel!

Wait, I think I see Jesus outside wanting to give me my new commission as a modern apostle!

Sorry, got to run. Jesus is calling!

Harry McCall said...

Dan Marvin state: “Let's take a test then to see if you have Broken God's Moral Laws. Have you broken any of the Commandments? Have you every lied? Have you always honored your mother and father? Have you always kept the first Commandment? If you break just one Commandment you are guilty of all of them.
James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Dan, Jesus broke God’s Moral Laws and was thus executed as demanded by the Law (the Romans carried out God’s will).

He did not respect his father and mother. (Luke 2:49)

He stole that which was not his. (Matt. 12:1)

He did not honor the Seventh day. (Matt. 12:10)

He bore false witness. (Matt 26: 64 , Mark 13:25)

Interestingly enough, James is the only New Testament book totally Jewish in its view of God and a book that condemns Jesus!

tigg13 said...

Correction:

It was Laurence Fishburne who offers the red and blue pills, not Samuel L. Jackson.

At least on this planet Earth. (Man, I am still so confused)

Please accept my profound apologies for this gross mistake.

DingoDave said...

Tigg 13 wrote:
"Maybe Darwin is on your alternate earth holding his boyfriend's hand in Hawaii?"

I second Zilch's nomination for bizzaro image of the month. The mind boggles!

By the way Tigg 13, thank's for responding to the second half of Dan's post. I was going to make an attempt, but I honestly didn't know how to even begin. I appreciate you making everything so clear for me.
Who would have guessed that if we followed Dan's reasoning to it's logical conclusion, we would discover that at this very moment, Darwin is holding Thomas Huxley's hand on the beach of an alternate Hawaii. Remarkable! :-D

That whole excercise reminded me of the 'witch scene' in the movie, Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
BEDEVERE:
What also floats in water?
ARTHUR:
A duck!
BEDEVERE:
Exactly. So, logically...
VILLAGER #1:
If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood.
BEDEVERE:
And therefore?
VILLAGER #2:
A witch!
BEDEVERE:
Very good. We shall use my largest scales.
BEDEVERE:
Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?
ARTHUR:
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
BEDEVERE:
My liege!
LOL!

Harry:
"Wait, I think I see Jesus outside wanting to give me my new commission as a modern apostle!
Sorry, got to run. Jesus is calling!"

Don't run Harry. It's probably just more of those pesky Jehovah's Witnesses again.

DingoDave said...

Harry wrote:
"Dan, Jesus broke God’s Moral Laws and was thus executed as demanded by the Law (the Romans carried out God’s will)....He bore false witness. (Matt 26: 64 , Mark 13:25)"

Harry, don't forget about him lying to the high priest during his trial.
Here's what he said to the high priest.

John 18
[19] The high priest then questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching.
[20] Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together; I have said nothing secretly.

What about all the teaching he did in the wilderness and on the mountains, and in people's private houses etc.?
And what about all those parables which he secretly explained to his disciples, because they couldn't understand them?

Mark 4
[10] And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables.
[11] And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;
[34] he did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.

Matt.13
[34] All this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable.
[36] Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field."
[11] And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Luke 8
[9] And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant,
[10] he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.

And how about him lying to his brothers about going to the feast of Tabernacles?

John.7
[1] After this Jesus went about in Galilee; he would not go about in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him.
[2] Now the Jews' feast of Tabernacles was at hand.
[3] So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples may see the works you are doing.
[4] For no man works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world."
[6] Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.
[8] Go to the feast yourselves; I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come."
[10] But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.

Sure was some role model, wasn't he?

Jamie Steele said...

I think the reasons you guys "walked away" for Christianity is because you never knew Jesus to begin with.

Your views of the Bible and Christianity are very flawed.

I really feel sorry for you. Don't take this as a hit. Just my opinion based on your very flawed view of Jesus.

Harry the view Mormons and JW's have of Jesus are vastly diff. they wrote another book to explain Him on there terms. Sounds like you are doing the same.

Harry McCall said...

DingoDave, Both God and Jesus are good simply because humans make them good…they want and need them to be good.

To the righteous Jews who kept and believed the Torah of Yahweh, Jesus was the biggest blasphemer that ever lived. To the Christians, he is the sinless son of God. It’s just perspectives.

Hey, it was not Jesus himself, but an angle of light in the form of a Jehovah Witness.

Evan said...

Jamie said:

I think the reasons you guys "walked away" for Christianity is because you never knew Jesus to begin with.

But you do.

So if you know him so well, please allow me to query your friendship.

1. What is Jesus' favorite color?

2. What does he like to eat?

3. How often does he make jokes or chuckle at things that are said?

4. Is he stern or happy?

5. Does he dress flamboyantly or is he more conservative?

6. Is he chatty or taciturn?

These are all questions you can ask me about any friends I have that I can answer, in some cases quite easily.

If you think about it, your "knowledge" of Jesus is indistinguishable from a fantasy imaginary friend in your mind Jamie.

Therefore it's true that we never knew him, cuz he is either a legend or dead.

The odd thing is that you claim to.

Jamie Steele said...

Evan,
Thanks for proving my point!

Dan Marvin said...

Harry: "I was raised in a Christian (Lutheran home) where my dad drank..."

First, I want to thank you for sharing your story with me, I'm honored that you have done so and I feel I know you better because of it. I did notice something that I want to humbly show you with no offense to you or your family. Do you think that your boasting of sainthood that zilch and others are talking about is a deep need to show dad how to be as a person? To take ownership of your life and morals you have tried to become the polar opposite of your dad. Sub-conscientiously you are countering the hypocrisy of your dad who was under that shroud of a Christian.

It makes sense that if that was Christianity then you would want to become the opposite because something deep inside of you (conscience) knew it was wrong. But something askew happened when you were older you found even more "hypocrisy" in more Christians. That had to be so very frustrating and painful and I feel for you. That had to be very hard. I can totally understand why you are where you are, thank you for sharing.

See my dad also drank and smoked pot but he was an atheist, he taught me how to lie to get gain in life. He was a great salesman and a very successful business owner. Then when I was 22 I finally read the Bible and saw I was right about all those things that I knew in my heart was wrong, that my dad was doing, like lying for gain. I ran to get baptized because I knew deep down my dad was wrong like you knew your dad was wrong.

I believe the point you turned in the wrong direction though is that you connected the false converts as true Christianity. The Bible says to evaluate everything to see if it is of God by its fruit, good tree = good fruit; a bad tree can never bear good fruit. We don’t even have to address the Catholic Church and the mass pedophiles, and the crusades to determine the fruit, it is obvious. The New covenant doesn't instruct us to divide into denominations either. As with our dads we knew right from wrong and your dad was just wrong and clouded up the bathwater but please understand that you indeed threw that precious baby (Jesus) with that cloudy bathwater. Yes men fail. Yes we sin. You also failed to recognize that very important part. THIS is the entire reason why we ALL need a Savior. Even you have failed in God's eyes and that was the point I was making earlier (have you ever lied? then you have broken the 9th Commandment) to you. We ALL fall short of God's standard of perfection. We need a mediator named Jesus. That is our only hope to see salvation. We all know right from wrong and we all chose wrong. We remain in darkness until our eyes and hearts are opened to understand His plan. Yes your dad was wrong and clouded Christianity, but that doesn't mean to throw Christianity (baby) out also.

I have prayed for you to understand my point . You are smart enough to understand right from wrong please, so don't allow the king of wrong (satan) take you as his. You are indeed following your dads footsteps and you are just as wrong as he is. If he is alive he still has a chance to become a Christian since he isn't now. Your dad is a drunkard and it says in 1 Corinthians 5:11 not to even keep company with him. Why would the Bible say that if it were OK and being in line with Christianity.

Ephesians 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"

Don't judge him until you get the log out of your own eye. Maybe you should read the characteristics of a false and true convert

With respect,
Dan

goprairie said...

"Will see who is right in the end."
no we won't. in the end, at the end of life, all senses will cease and all mental processing will cease and each of us will be dead. we will not know anything. i as an atheist will be right that there is no god, no soul, no afterlife, but i will NOT have the satisfaction of knowing that after i die. i will be dead and cease to sense or know. same for you. so neither of us will have that smug moment. but that is not what matters in the here and now. for every hour you spend in church, i spend one outdoors learning about and experiencing nature. for every minute you spend praying to a nonexistant god, i am talking to a friend or one of my sons. for every hour you spend in study of a flawed document of myths (your bible in case you didn't recognize it) i read about science or brain functioning or psychology or news online or in a book or magazine. i happen to think you are wasting time and energy here and now. but that IS your choice, isn't it.

Jamie Steele said...

goprarie
THanks for your opinion.

i am glad that is not my worldview but I will not put you down for what you think is right.

You speak about death as though you had some kind of authority on it.

i will take the words of Jesus and the Holy Bible over yours, with all due respect.

There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
Proverbs
Our God is a God who saves; from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.
Psalms

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. Jesus

But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
Dr. Luke

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Paul

And every time you soak up and enjoy the creation you bring honor and Glory to God.

The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the peoples see his glory. Psalms

Evan said...

Jamie,

Your comments once again show me how deeply flawed Christian belief is. You couldn't convince a cat to use a litter box with the arguments you use.

It's nice that you are there to constantly prove that point.

Don said...

From "Declarations of A Powerful Ministry", on the web page of the "New Bethel / Bethel Epiphany COGIC", District Supt. Pastor Harvey Burnett: We proclaim the liberty of our men from absentee fatherism, Adultery, Homosexuality, crime, prison, and impoverishment. We proclaim the liberty of our women from drugs, prostitution, lesbianism, bisexuality, loneliness and poverty."

Harvey, why are the women freed from bisexuality but the men are not? What did Jesus say about bisexuality?

And why are Adultery and Homosexuality capitalized? Don't you normally reserve that for your God?

zilch said...

Dan, you say (to Harry):

Do you think that your boasting of sainthood that zilch and others are talking about is a deep need to show dad how to be as a person?

Of course, only Harry can answer that for himself. But I will say this. Harry said nothing about being a saint: dingodave and I are responsible for his election to sainthood, jocularly to be sure. And I suspect (subject to correction from Harry, of course) that Harry was not "boasting" to show up his dad, but to make a point about hypocrisy in the church. I don't know Harry well, but from what he's written so far, he doesn't come across as a boaster. So keep your pop psychology downwind, partner.

tigg13- I did notice your mistake about Laurence Fishbourne, being a Matrix freak, but forebore mentioning it. You've shamed me into admitting a mistake of my own: of course, the Na Pali coast is on Kauai, not Maui. Now I'm not sure which island Darwin and Huxley were holding hands on... it's all so confusing!

Don- as a man, if I'm not freed from bisexuality, or drugs, or lesbianism, I guess I could have a pretty interesting life...

Bloviator said...

I know I said this before, perhaps a year ago, but Dan Marvin is in DANGER of losing his SALVATION!!!!! We all remember Calvin, don't we? Note any similarities? Note also that Calvin (now Cole) has fallen away? Dan thinks too much, and therefore is a candidate for apostasy. All who think too much are likewise candidates. Damnable brain!! Who asked you to think? ;}

Dan Marvin said...

Bloviator,

Thanks for the concern but I am in very good hands. I believe "losing salvation" is an oxymoron. Besides you will not hear me say the word apostasy, aww french toast I just did, darn you Bloviatorrrrrr

Harry McCall said...

Thanks for your concern Dan Marvin, but any boosting I did was to prove that without God and the Bible, an atheist will not go wild and steal, rape, murder, lie and live a debauched life style.

I now realize I realized that I never knew a human that lived a Christian life of holiness and piousness. One pastor at our Lutheran church cussed and had the youth crying at interchurch sports; he even swung a fist at a 14 year old boy and came within inches of hitting him while he cussed him. The next pastor had to leave because of alcoholism.

I left and join a independent fundamental Baptist church where one pastor ran off with the church secretary (only to return a month latter broke and asking God and his wife for forgiveness). The next pastor’s wife left him and their 6 children and moved in with a boy friend.

I was licensed to preach by the above Baptist church, but was asked to leave when I told the Sunday school class that Peter and Paul did not use the King James Bible (I pointed out the date 1611 AD and the fact it’s in English)…big mistake at a church that worships God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and God the King James Bible.

I am convinced that, unless one attends a liberal church, the Christian pious life style as preached by conservative churches is an illusion.

When I attended Columbia Theological Seminary in Atlanta, Ga., one professor committed suicide in his office; the head of the Atlanta Clinical Pastoral Education Association had to go out on Sabbatical due to alcoholism. My professor (PhD Princeton University) for Pastoral Counseling would come to our small group seminar reeking with alcohol and told the class that “Some of the best counseling I have ever had is when my wife hauls off and slaps my face.” And here I was from an alcoholic home where my parents often beat the hell out of each other several times monthly.

As for as the Fundamentalist school, Bob Jones University goes, pull up B.J.U. under You-tube and watch what these Christian students are doing…wild!

As I look back and to where I am now, I have always simply been a good secular person.

As for as Christianity goes, when I was in it, we would witness the Gospel every week at Clemson University until my group caused the student body to have the University to ban any Christian room to room witnessing.

In the end and looking back (when I truly believed Christianity was true and had all the answers) I felt like I had married the most beautiful, kind and loving wife a man could EVER hope to have and, in preaching the Gospel, I wanted every “sinner” to have the loving relationship I had. But, in light of the above, plus even more I have not told you, I felt like I had come home early one day from work carrying roses for my wonderful loving wife only to find her in my bed with the plumber engage in wild sex!

You may claim I never knew Jesus and I was never really saved, but I went though a very dark time of my life where I was totally depressed and wondered for a year in sock not really wanting to live anymore.

Dan, look at my blog profile (click on my name). I spent 6 years in and thousands of dollars at Christian colleges, universities and seminaries. I was licensed to preach and preached several revivals at different churches and now you tell me I never knew Christ!!!

Dan, I will leave you with this, your theology of salvation is not, nor was not my life; it’s your theology based only on your experiences in your life and your sectarian reading of the Bible. You can only speak for yourself.

Regards,
Harry

Bloviator said...

Dan:

You're a funny guy. I really, truly do wish you and yours the best, and should it give you the solace and peace you desire (as it apparently does), I wish you the best with your faith. Can't conscience it myself, of course. We all must live within the life we have created.

Harry:

I can relate to the alcoholism in the family, even to my own (also mom and pop, probably brother and older sister as well). We are all in the soup in one way or another, it's what we do with it in the end that matters (to my way of thinking). Seems like you have done very well indeed. Peace to you and your family and thanks for all of your interesting and engaging posts.

Dan Marvin said...

Harry: "I realized that I never knew a human that lived a Christian life of holiness"

...there is none good but one, that is, God.

"I have always simply been a good secular person."

...there is none good but one, that is, God.

The Bible is chalk full of hypocrisy examples you are in good company because God hates it also.

"we would witness the Gospel every week" and to think all those people that you assisted in getting saved will be thanking you from heaven, but will they be able to meet you?

"You may claim I never knew Jesus and I was never really saved, but I went though a very dark time of my life where I was totally depressed and wondered for a year in sock not really wanting to live anymore." Now that doesn't sound like fruit of the spirit, something is askew.

Fruit of the Spirit - An ever-growing capacity of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and self control in the life of the believer.

1Peter 1:8 "Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:"

"I spent 6 years in and thousands of dollars at Christian colleges, universities and seminaries. I was licensed to preach and preached several revivals at different churches and now you tell me I never knew Christ!!!"

Yea but have you put Jesus on like a parachute?

"Two men are seated in a plane. The first is given a parachute and told to put is on as it would improve his flight. He's a little skeptical at first because he can't see how wearing a parachute in a plane could possibly improve the flight. After a time he decides to experiment and see if the claim is true. As he puts it on he notices the weight of it upon his shoulders and he finds that he has difficulty in sitting upright. However, he consoles himself with the fact that he was told the parachute would improve the flight. So, he decides to give the thing a little time. As he waits he notices that some of the other passengers are laughing at him, because he's wearing a parachute in a plane. He begins to feel somewhat humiliated. As they begin to point and laugh at him and he can stand it no longer, he slinks in his seat, unstraps the parachute, and throws it to the floor. Disillusionment and bitterness fill his heart, because, as far as he was concerned, he was told an outright lie.

The second man is given a parachute, but listen to what he's told. He's told to put it on because at any moment he'd be jumping 25,000 feet out of the plane. He gratefully puts the parachute on; he doesn't notice the weight of it upon his shoulders, nor that he can't sit upright. His mind is consumed with the thought of what would happen to him if he jumped without that parachute.

Let's analyze the motive and the result of each passenger's experience. The first man's motive for putting the parachute on was solely to improve his flight. The result of his experience was that he was humiliated by the passengers; he was disillusioned and somewhat embittered against those who gave him the parachute. As far as he's concerned it'll be a long time before anyone gets one of those things on his back again. The second man put the parachute on solely to escape the jump to come, and because of his knowledge of what would happen to him without it, he has a deep-rooted joy and peace in his heart knowing that he's saved from sure death. This knowledge gives him the ability to withstand the mockery of the other passengers. His attitude towards those who gave him the parachute is one of heart-felt gratitude.

Now listen to what the modern gospel says. It says, "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ. He'll give you love, joy, peace, fulfillment, and lasting happiness." In other words, "Jesus will improve your flight." So the sinner responds, and in an experimental fashion, puts on the Savior to see if the claims are true. And what does he get? The promised temptation, tribulation, and persecution. The other passengers mock him. So what does he do? He takes off the Lord Jesus Christ, he's offended for the word's sake (Mark 4:17), he's disillusioned and somewhat embittered, and quite rightly so. He was promised peace, joy, love, fulfillment, and lasting happiness, and all he got were trials and humiliation. His bitterness is directed toward those who gave him the so-called "good news". His latter end becomes worse than the first: another inoculated and bitter backslider."(Hell's Best Kept Secret)

I am just sad when I read your responses. I want to reach out and give you a hug telling you everything is going to be alright. But I can't, it's not going to be alright for you. You allowed the devil to talk to you like Eve did and Satan got into your ear. There is absolutely nothing I can say or do that will change your mind. God is the only one that can help you at this point. OK you are set in your ways now, I get it! I am the die hard optimist though. Please for your sake just one last time for your life's sake. Tonight get down on your knees (like proposing) humble yourself and ask God to help you with your struggles. Give God just one more chance to save your soul. Beg him to manifest himself to you, to cure that disease of doubt. I said that doubt was the opposite of faith but I was wrong.

I saw something the other day that shook me hard. It said: The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. I am not sure who the quote was from but the movie was beyond the gates a must see!

On this side of the fence the is an offer of hope and salvation just for the asking. Come over for a barbecue, you are always welcome. What do you have to lose that you haven't lost already. Give God a chance to save you as he saved me.

I should have been dead at 17 and four more times after that. Why did He save me? In August I will be 40 with my 4th child in my arms and I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why I was spared, but I am so grateful. I am sure glad He is in charge.

Take care of yourself,
Dan

lee said...

Dan "The Bible is chalk full of hypocrisy examples you are in good company because God hates it also."

I can understand the hypocrisy, I may not like it either....but I understand it. What I cannot understand is if God's wants everyone to be saved, and His existence cannot definitively be proven through classical apologetics or through empirical observation and experimentation and the only viable method given unto man whereby he can understand who God is and what He demands of us is the revelation of "Holy scripture" why would He allow it to contain so many inconsistencies and contradictions.
What exactly separates it from any other "revelation" given to all the other religions on the planet.

I had someone not long ago attempt to explain why he believed in inerrancy. In the final analysis his definition wasn't that the bible did not contain errors, it was that even with the errors it was "sufficient" for salvation. It must be nice to be able to change the meaning and definition of a word just so it will fit into your worldview.

If scripture is the final authority of faith and practice for the believer, the errors and inconsistencies found therein does not bode well for God's ability to superintend the revelation of His word and will.

Harry McCall said...

Dan, I appreciate your concern, but for me, but the Christian faith is equal to what theology labels “sin”; it “misses the mark”.

The only way Christianity can function is by passing ALL the blame on to the “sinner”, and claiming he just did not / needs to try a little harder to reap God’s rewards.

We humans live in a society in the United States where we are governed by “Limon Laws”, “Warranties”, and “Contracts” because verbal agreements and faith are not worth much in a court of law. Dan, even ancient Israel had a contract with God / Yahweh called a “Covenant” where Yahweh up held his end of the deal if Israel up held theirs. In Christianity, it’s totally trust now for a hopeful one day reward…Heaven.

If I told you I had 3 million dollars in a saving account at a local bank and all this would be yours one day if you simply love me and did what I asked you to do. Now, I won’t ask much, just work around my house, buy me some groceries and drive me places.

Now, Dan, please understand this is not you working to EARN my 3 million dollars, but simply you showing your love for me and me for your by my wonderful 3 million dollars I have laid up for you.

However, while you are doing all the things I asked of you to prove your love for me, you and your family fall on hard times. You can not pay your bills. What few items you have are reprocessed to pay some bills. Your power is cut off. Your family falls apart from finical pressure. Even though I have 3 million dollars in the bank, I never once pay any of your bills nor help you in anyway because, Dan, I'm there for you and your family but I’m simply “testing you and your faith”. Just hang in there buddy! The 3 million is yours as soon as I’m gone.

If you took all this on “faith” and waited on “salvation” / 3 million dollars after I was dead and NEVER ONCE went to the bank, NEVER ONCE requested a legal contract be drawn up / will; you would be flat out stupid! But this is exactly how you Christians think.

My life is as rich as your's, but I know there is no 3 million dollars waiting on me (Heaven). I went to the bank and, friend, it just an’t there! Plus, faith will never stand up in court.

Based on my experiences in Christianity, I would trust a used car salesman more than the promises of the Bible.

Another point that you have stated on faith which is in error: “The second man is given a parachute, but listen to what he's told. He's told to put it on because at any moment he'd be jumping 25,000 feet out of the plane.”

Do you remember D.B. Cooper (the man who jumped out of a plane back in the 70’s with millions of dollars at about the same altitude hoping, that is, having faith that his parachute would save his life with the money)? His faith was wrong and it cost him his life. No, they never found his body, but at the height he jumped from, the lack of oxygen, and the extreme cold, the facts showed he could not have lived. Parts of money still washed up in the lakes and rivers in the northern part of the country a decade after the event.

Dan, you are walking an endless tight rope called “The Christian faith” without a net. Good Luck!

Regards, Harry

Jamie Steele said...

Based on my experiences in Christianity, I would trust a used car salesman more than the promises of the Bible.

Harry i have a car for sale.

Also Harry the true test of authentic faith is not learning theology at a seminary or witnessing.
The true test of authehtic faith is perseverance.

Jesus said "Those who endure to the end will be saved."

also
Peter said this "10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if
you do these things, you will never fall,

Jude 24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence
without fault and with great joy--

Paul said "23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit,
soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has
caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the
dead,


4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in
heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the
last time.

See Harry, what God starts He finishes.
It may be that God didn't start your salvation.
And by your own admition He didn't

He did mine. I am praying for you.

Dan Marvin said...

Harry,

I guess the difference between us is that I don't care about the 3 million dollars and will love you no matter what.

In real life: I told my own dad that I didn't want his money ever, just so he doesn't think that I love him FOR his money. I told him I would donate everything he gives me. He was using the will as a weapon to my brother and it disgusted me.

Harry whether you promise me 3 million or not, I will love you always because you were there for me as a friend and you have taken that bullet for me already in Hanoi. You saved my life and I am so very grateful. You are my brother that loved me enough to try to save me and that is all I needed for you to get my undying loyalty until the bitter end. In fact you didn't even have to do that to get my loyalty because you are just a great person. Spit on me, call me names, punch me but I still love you. (thought's of Job just popped into my head) I don't EXPECT anything from you no matter what is promised to me. I forgive you. I love you, thank you. You are the representation of what true friendship is. {and scene}

Harry if a friend named Dan that gave you a huge gift out of his kindness (lets say a car) and then, because he gave you that gift, feels entitled to get something from you. He wants something you have and feels like you should give it to him, after all he gave you something. He feels you owe him now. Dan calls you daily nagging you about the thing he wants. Over time he starts to get bitter because you should treat him the same as he treated you. Dan starts talking bad about you at work and is relentless in complaining about what kind of friend you are to everyone and is bitter until he dies. That car he gave you really starts to lose value quickly doesn't it? My question to you is did Dan really love you? Was Dan a good friend?

In that situation Harry, you are Dan and God is Harry. One would wonder if Dan give you a gift only to 'get' something from you. The car could represent anything you have done such as Columbia Theological Seminary in Atlanta, Ga or Bob Jones University.

I hope you understand something Harry. I love you, bro. I got your back don't worry about my friendship. I am always here for you anytime you need me. Abuse my kindness if you wish, it will not change how I feel about you. I will always remember the moment when I was in that trench in Hanoi, scared out of my mind, and you ran in and grabbed me from death. You were so very brave to take on the enemy without fear. You made me want to be a better man by being you and for that I am grateful and consider it an honor to know you. Harry you can always lean on me if you need a friend. Thank you Harry...Jesus.

With love,
Dan

Harry McCall said...

“Based on my experiences in Christianity, I would trust a used car salesman more than the promises of the Bible.”

Jamie Steele: “Harry i have a car for sale.”

Lets see; on a scale of 1 – 10 with 10 being excellent: Biblical promises 2, used car salesman 4.
Sorry, just being honest.

Jamie, my feeling is this and this is why I post here at DC. If, after death, Jesus Christ will show me nor any non-Christian NO piety, but cast all other religions, along with agnostics and atheists into hell and, later the Lake of Fire at the Great White Throne Judgment, then why should I show either the Bible, God, or Christ piety now.

No Quarters Requested. No Quarters Granted!

Here is an earlier post:

Subject: Thinking About Theology Again.
(Posted at DC. Sept. 7, 2006)

As a Christian I heard John 3:16 run into the ground about how God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son to die for us. Even Jesus said we should call him "Father" ...a father who lovingly lives in heaven (but who also has a sinister method of watching us). A loving father who (like the Gospel story of the loving Sheppard) will leave the 99 sheep and hunt for the single lost one. Of course, this only lasts with God while we are alive. After our death, our loving Heavenly Father soon morphs, form a kind Dr. Jekyll, into a sadistic Mr. Hide (or maybe more like the psychotic cruel mother who would go from a very loving mother to a evil parent which attacked her own child in the movie of the multi-personality character: Sybil ).

Thus, the old question posed by young Christians and non believer: If God is a God of love, than why does He send a person to Hell? Well, this question is understood about a soul after death and also about the "Mr. Hide" character of God: "You're dead and now your ass is mine!" But the preacher replies: God does not send anyone to Hell. We send ourselves. Yea, right! Just like Sybil made her psychotic mother beat and torture her.

Often, confused parents ask their minister: Where was God when to my child died? Preacher: The same place He was when His son died. Fact: God was in the comforts of heaven enjoying every second of it! This is the same defense used by many parents who beat and torture their children (often to death) is that this is simply a loving form of discipline of which the child asked for. Remember, most all the Ten Commandments had a death penalty if broken to be enforced by the religious leaders who were God's own mouth on earth.

If the statement is true that God hates the sin, but loves the sinner, than we truly have an example of the "Pot calling the kettle black", but in this case the pot is even blacker. A god who loves mass slaughter of whole families in the Hebrew Bible is truly a sick psychotic god who blames the victims as a way to justify the horrific gore He puts them though. And this in the light that He did it braking most all His very own Ten Commandments!

From what St. Paul writes in the New Testament, I would be lead to think that after death the Christian comes into the presents of a God who quickly begins His morphing into a sadistic Mr. Hide character. Like the living person in movies who is confronted by the vampire, but who stops the attack by holding out a cross or uses Holy Water to ward off the attack, Christians must stand before a morphed God and use the blood of Jesus to compel God to draw back from his evil judgment and torture (remember at judgment the victim is blamed for “sin” and that God thinks we deserve eternal punishment) and we “sinners” must use the blood of Jesus to drive Him into submission...to get to some heaven where we will have to live with the this psychotic nut forever. Hey, it's like in the movie The Exorcist, as the once loving, but now psychotic God tries to attack the saved individual form His Great White Throne Judgment Seat, the Christian states: The blood of Christ compel thee! In horror, God cursing and screaming must draw back.

Conclusion:
I'm sitting here at my keyboard thinking about my past life as a Christian: "How did I ever believe this crap for 45 years!" However, (and remember) from a psychotic God's prospective: I was the victim; I asked for it!

-----------------------------------

Jamie and Dan, as individuals, you two seem like great people and thank you for you kind comments.

But as for as Jesusv is concerned, if he and you two were hanging by your hands before dropping to your deaths at the bottom of a 200 foot cliff, I would pull you to safety the step on Jesus’ fingers to cause him to fall to his death (a work of atonement).

Since Christ (by Christian theology) will (in the future) sentence me to eternity to burn in the Lake of Fire, I have sentenced him in the here and now (in the present tense) to a theological life of logical Hell.

Regards,
Harry

Dan Marvin said...

Harry,

That sure is a strange way of looking at things. I am forced to concede and admit you are completely right, I fully admit now that there is no God in your life. I can in good conscience say that your blood is NOT on my hands and I will stop helping you understand. I still feel a somewhat connection and believe that this conversation happened for a good purpose. Who knows maybe in twenty years you will be convincing me to stay the course and God still loves me. If you look back at everything said I am sure with logical reasoning you will see that there was truth to what was said to you. I just hope you understand that I gave every effort to help you out of that fire and that you conscientiously chose to burn. Please don't hold anything against me for trying hard and am reluctantly giving up. This conversation was very edifying and hope our souls touched each other in some way. I must admit this is not the first time after a truly enlightening conversation and I opened myself up in a real connection with an atheist and they resort to illogical reasoning and just falls back to badmouthing God. You are not rare or unique; I meet your type everywhere. My actual good friend from the military just the other day said to me "If you don't like my views and beliefs than I think maybe we should end our friendship right here right now. " Now this was one of the close ones who 15 years ago wanted me to be his first child's god parent. I must say Harry McCall your words are burned into my memories and I will one day have answers for reasons why these situations and conversations took place. There is a price to pay in being a Christian this is true. It means I have to watch people I meet, like you, turn from God and chose to burn in hell forever, please at least say hi to my mom for me. I am living proof that man cannot convert people and that it takes a true miracle from God to change the hearts of the wicked. Who's next?

Sigh,
Dan

DingoDave said...

Harry wrote:
"If I told you I had 3 million dollars in a saving account at a local bank and all this would be yours one day if you simply love me and did what I asked you to do. Now, I won’t ask much, just work around my house, buy me some groceries and drive me places."

That reminds me of the parable

"Kissing Hank's Ass"

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss his ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, he'll kick the shit out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do what ever he wants, and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and he kicks the shit out of you."

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise; maybe you'll win a small lotto; maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street."

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?

John: "Hank has certain
connections.'"

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the shit of you."

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me: "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on "From the desk of Karl" letterhead. There were eleven items listed:

1-Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2-Use alcohol in moderation.
3-Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
4-Eat right.
5-Hank dictated this list himself.
6-The moon is made of green cheese.
7-Everything Hank says is right.
8-Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9-Don't drink.
10-Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11-Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the shit out of you.

Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me: "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me: "But #9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with #2. And #6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2; 9 just clarifies 2. As to 6, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from outer space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me: "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."

Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because he says he's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary blushes. John says: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary faints. John catches her: "Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

-AUTHOR Jim Huber.

Harry McCall said...

Thanks for your final comment and honest views on theology.

However, there is another Christian that has been posting here for about a year who post under the name “Jason”. Jason is a VERY dedicated Christian who, as a Christadelphian


Jason: “Harry, you’re an atheist. You’ve lost the right to legitimately instruct Christians on Bible doctrine. The lake of fire is nothing more then the “second death”. Scripture never says everyone has eternal life – in fact, Scripture says people die and when they’re dead, they know nothing (Ecc 9:5). If you’d like to start up a topic discussing what the Bible teaches about the death state, I’d be more then happy to continue this discussion.”…

“Again, if you’d like to start up a topic discussing what the Bible teaches about the death state, I’d be more then happy to continue this discussion.”

“Hi Harry, perhaps you missed it but as I said in my last post, start up a new topic on Enoch and Elijah and I’ll be happy to walk you through the reasons why they’re both dead and buried.”

Dan and Jamie, here is how Jason (as a Christadelphian) fells about your doctrine of eternal punishment:
“Apostate Christendom often associates 'hell' with the idea of fire and torment. This is in sharp contrast to Bible teaching about hell (the grave). "Like sheep they are laid in the grave (hell); death shall feed on them" (Ps. 49:14) implies that the grave is a place of peaceful oblivion. Despite Christ's soul, or body, being in hell for three days, it did not suffer corruption (Acts 2:31). This would have been impossible if hell were a place of fire. Eze. 32:26-30 gives a picture of the mighty warriors of the nations around, lying at peace in their graves: "The mighty that are fallen (in battle)...which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads...they shall lie...with them that go down to the pit". This refers to the custom of burying warriors with their weapons, and resting the head of the corpse upon its sword. Yet this is a description of "hell" - the grave. These mighty men lying still in hell (i.e. their graves), hardly supports the idea that hell is a place of fire. Physical things (e.g. swords) go to the same "hell" as people, showing that hell is not an arena of spiritual torment. Thus Peter told a wicked man, "Thy money perish with thee"(Acts 8:20).”
So, according to Jason, my future is simply a grave. If you disagree, he can prove it to you both.

I maybe an atheist, but both of you are teaching and preaching “Apostate Christendom”!!
There will be no eternal fire / punishment for me! Thanks, Jason!
Regards,
Harry

Dan Marvin said...

I hardly heard of christadelphianism and had to look it up. There is some things I found if you are all interested:

No, Christadelphianism is not Christian. Like all cults, Christadelphianism denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity: Jesus is God, the physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. In this case, it is the deity of Christ and salvation by grace through faith that are the problems with this group.

Of primary importance is what the Christadelphians say about Jesus. They deny He is divine in nature. According to John 1:1,14, John 8:58 (with Exodus 3:14), and Col. 2:9, Jesus is God.

Furthermore, Jesus said in John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins." Also, John the Apostle said in 1 John 4:2-4, "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." You can see that denying that Jesus has come in the flesh (that He is God in flesh per John 1:1,14) is the spirit of antichrist.

Since we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9), it is crucial to have the proper object of faith. All Satan has to do is to get someone to believe in a false Jesus, and the person is lost (Matt. 24:24). A false Jesus cannot save, and only the true Jesus reveals the true God (John 14:6; Luke 10:22; John 17:3). Since Jesus is actually God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8), it follows that those who deny His divine nature -- and ascribe a sinful one to Him as the Christadelphians do -- cannot have the true Jesus and are, therefore, serving a false God.
The Christadelphians, by having a Jesus who has a sin nature, cannot have a proper sacrifice by which their sins are atoned for. According to the Old Testament, the sacrifice for sins had to be without blemish (Deut. 17:1). Having a sin nature would definitely be a blemish which would invalidate the sacrifice.

Some questions for the Christadelphians: If Jesus had a sinful, fallen nature, then isn't that a defect? If Jesus' sinful nature is not a defect, then what would you call it? If Jesus sinful nature is a defect, then doesn't that mean His sacrifice is insufficient? If you state that being obedient is what makes a person "unblemished," then why are we damned by nature (Eph. 2:3) if it is only our sinful deeds that condemn us?

Christadelphians believe that Jesus had to die in order to save himself. Yet the Christadelphians also maintain that Jesus was without blemish or defect. If this is so, why would Jesus need to save Himself if He had no sin? If Jesus needed to save Himself, then that means He was not without defect. If that is the case, then how can he be a pure and unblemished sacrifice?

The Christadelphian religion is a false religion. It is definitely not Christian. This is not to say that there are not decent people who intend to serve God honestly and truthfully. But sincerity does not bridge the gap between God and man. Only the blood of the real Jesus does that, not a false Christ with a sin nature who himself needed salvation.

Later,
Dan

Jamie Steele said...

Harry,

I hope you are right about Hell but I believe your theology is a bit flawed.

Who really cares what hell is like.

I am glad about heaven.

Hope to see you there Harry, John, Zilch...etc....

You guys seem pretty cool anyway.

Rachel said...

Thanks DingoDave. That reminds me of a similar parable...

Whining About Hank

This morning as I was picking the wings off of flies to see if I could get evolution moving a little faster, there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

Fred: "Hi! I'm Fred, and this is Wilma."

Wilma: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come express loyalty to Hank with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to express my loyalty to him?"

Fred: "If you are loyal to Hank, He'll give you the natural reward for loyalty; just like if you work for a company for long time and do well, they rightly reward you. And if you aren't, He won’t give you any rewards, but He will just leave you on your own to your own shame.”

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

Fred: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a reward for loyalty, but He can't until you are loyal to him."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Wilma: "What do you mean, ‘that doesn’t make any sense’? Do you think these houses built themselves? Don’t you think you should be thankful to the person who built it and let you live here?”

Me: "Well no, I think these houses just sort of flew together in a storm one day."

Fred: "I can see why this doesn’t make sense to you then."

Me: "Do you show loyalty to this ‘Hank’ often?"

Wilma: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"

Fred: "Well no. We don’t serve Hank for the reward. We serve Hank because He has earned our trust and loyalty.”

Me: "Huh? But I wanted money."

Wilma: "I suppose if you think these houses came out of nowhere, that’s to be expected."

Me: "Well gosh. It sounds like there’s really nothing in it for me. Do you know anyone who was loyal to Hank, left town, and got the rewards?"

Fred: "Does it really matter? The rewards are not the issue; it is that Hank is a real person who did real things like build your house.”

Me: "Yeah, but I want money, man. Have you seen the price of beer lately?”

Fred: "I’m sorry, but your priorities seem a bit skewed. Remember, if you don't follow Hank he’ll leave you alone…but you won’t be able to achieve your fullest potential that Hank intends. He’ll leave to spend the rest of your existence in boredom and disgrace.”

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

Wilma: “What makes you think you’d hear any different? Aren’t you just fudging to create a problem?"

Me: "Then how do you show loyalty to Hank if you don’t see him?"

Fred: "We serve Him and His interests. Don’t tell me you need to see and talk to a person to work for them. Have you ever seen the President of this country?”



Me: "Well, no, but --"

Wilma: "We learned about Hank by the record of what He did in history. The records taught us all about Hank and why we should be loyal to Him – because of all that He did, and because He is who He is."

Me: "Huh. And you just took these records at their word when they said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to be loyal to him, and that Hank did all this stuff?"

Fred: "No, we checked out the validity of the record and what it said, and compared it to other records. One of Hank’s officers, Karl, wrote down some of it; there were others, too, but here's a copy of what Karl wrote; see for yourself."

From the Desk of Karl
Be loyal to Hank for He has earned your loyalty by providing you with life and all you have.
Use alcohol in moderation.
Pursue righteousness. Don’t misuse this as an excuse to define “righteousness” in your own image.
Eat right.
Hank dictated this list Himself.
The moon is white and shining.
Everything Hank says is right.
Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
Don't use alcohol if it becomes too strong.
Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
Be loyal to Hank or He'll leave you to your own devices.


Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Wilma: "What’s your point?"

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

Fred: "So what? When Karl wrote this 95% of people in this town couldn’t read anyway. Most communication was by dictation. Do you have a problem with that? Why not just address the epistemic validity of what is written?"

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Wilma: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist hurts of people just because they're different?"

Wilma: "So you think that Hank ought to give rewards to ungrateful people?"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

Fred: "So prove it. We did our research and we found that all that Karl wrote is sound.”



Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is white and shining,' which is just plain wrong."

Fred: "See, you haven’t done your homework at all. 2 and 9 were both written before alcohol was strong enough to knock your socks off. As far as 6 goes, I suppose you don’t use the word ‘sunset’ in your vocabulary.”


Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon reflects light, not that it shines..."

Wilma: "They’ve also established that the sun doesn’t ‘set’. So what is the problem, exactly? Do you have a problem with phenomenological language?"

Me: "I'm not really an expert. I don’t even know what that word means."

Fred: "Obviously not.”

Me: "Item 7 is a real trip, though.”

Wilma: "Why?”

Me: "You can use it to say Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

Fred: "Well, sorry to disappoint you, but we did check out the claims and as far as we have found, item 7 is valid. If you think it isn’t you need to explain why.”


Me: "Maybe later. I need a beer. What's the deal with wieners?"

Wilma: She rolls her eyes.

Fred: "Oh, yes., Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It was written at a time when there were serious problems with condiments being poisoned by poor processing methods, so Hank included a ban on condiments. Buns are required because when this was written, there were no napkins, and people got the grease from the wieners on their fingers and it caused a lot of accidents. These days since we have napkins and better sanitation, we don’t worry about that law.”

Me: "What if I didn't have a bun?"

Fred: "What kind of silly question is that? I told you why the bun was needed. Are you so selfish that you’d risk hurting people just so you don’t have to put up with a bun?"

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Wilma: “Didn’t you hear a word he said? Relish and mustard at the time this was written was deadly.”

Me: (I stick my fingers in her ears.)"I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

Fred: "I can see we’re wasting our time with someone who lives in his own little world.”



With this, Fred escorted Wilma to their waiting car, and sped off. I went back inside for a beer.

DingoDave said...

Jamie Steele wrote:
"I think the reasons you guys "walked away" for Christianity is because you never knew Jesus to begin with."

I once gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls. :(

DingoDave said...

Thanks for the counter-parable Rachel, but I'm afraid that it doesn't hold a candle to the original. It's so chock full of falshoods and fallacies that only a fundamentalist creationist could have written it.
I'm afraid that it lost me after the very first line.
"Pulling the wings off flies to try to get evolution moving a little faster"? :0
It appears that whoever wrote this dismal piece hasn't got the first clue about how evolution actually works, or about a great many other things for that matter.
Perhaps the author should read his/her own bible sometime.

-Fred: "Well no. We don’t serve Hank for the reward. We serve Hank because He has earned our trust and loyalty.”
WTF? :O
I can't believe that anyone could seriously even write that line.
Christianity is ALL ABOUT chasing rewards, and avoiding punishments. If you don't believe me just read these verses.

Matt.5
[12] Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.
[46] For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Matt.6
[1] "Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
[4] so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
[6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Matt.10
[41] He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
[42] And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

Mark.9
[41] For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.

Luke.6
[23] Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven;
[35] But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High;

1Cor.3
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

Col.3
[24] knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.

Heb.10
[35] Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.

Heb.11
[6] And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
[26] He considered abuse suffered for the Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked to the reward.

2John.1
[8] Look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for, but may win a full reward.

Rev.11
[18] The nations raged, but thy wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear thy name,

Romans 2
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

-Fred: "I’m sorry, but your priorities seem a bit skewed. Remember, if you don't follow Hank he’ll leave you alone…"

Luke.12
[5] But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!

John.15
[6] If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Matt.13
[40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
[41] The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers,
[42] and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

Matt.18
[8] And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
[9] And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Being 'thrown into the eternal fire' does not sound like being 'left alone' to me!

And I'm afraid that the rest of it is no better, but I don't have the stomach to refute it all at the moment.

zilch said...

Jamie- I'm honored to be on your list of "pretty cool" people. If you get raptured, I'll be down on my knees lickety-split, and we'll soon be in Heaven together, laughing and eating wieners, with buns, relish, onions, and mustard. And drinking beer too.

Rachel- I concur with dingodave: not only is your take-off of Hank's Ass not as funny as the original, but it is an instantiation of Poe's Law: I was convinced for quite a while that it was simply another version of the parable, and also aimed at satirizing fundamentalists. Sorry- lame at best.

Dingodave: you say

I once gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls. :(

Do you know this great blues song by Greg Brown?

Oh Lord, I have made you a place in my heart among the rags and the bones and the dirt.
There’s piles of lies, and the love gone from her eyes, and old moving boxes full of hurt.
Pull up a chair by the trouble and care. I got whiskey, you’re welcome to some.
Oh Lord, I’ve made you a place in my heart, but I don’t reckon you’re gonna come.

Tried to fix up the place, I know it’s a disgrace, you get used to it after a while -
with the flood and the drought and old pals hanging out with their IOU’s and their smiles.
Bare naked women keep coming in and they dance like you would not believe.
Oh Lord, I’ve made you a place in my heart, so take a good look - and then leave.

Oh Lord, why does the Fall get colder each year? Lord, why can’t I learn to love?
Lord, if you made me, it’s easy to see that you all make mistakes up above.
But if I open the door, you’ll know that I’m poor, and my secrets are all that I own.
Oh Lord, I’ve made you a place in my heart and I hope that you leave it alone.

tigg13 said...

Wilma: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come express loyalty to Hank with us."

And just how does one "express loyalty"?

Do you just sit and read Hank's book at the exclusion of all else?

Do you spend a few hours each weeks at Hank's house listening to sermons?

Do you give Hank 10% of everything you have?

Do you ignore all of the teriible things that have been done in Hank's name?

Do you ignore all of the terrible things that Hank's book says Hank has done himself?

Do you defend Hank against his enemies?

Do you argue with them?

Do you try to limit their rights to believe as they wish and communicate their thoughts because this leads to heresy and blasphomy against Hank.

Do you conspire against them?

Do you fight them?

Stone them?

Blow up their clinics?

Do you go to war against them and, if possible wipe them out of existance?

Do you hate Hank's enemies out of loyalty to Hank?

Would you allow one of Hank's friends to get away with a crime, like rape or child molesting, out of loyalty to Hank?

Would you sit and do nothing while a loved one died because because calling a doctor might be considered a lack of loyalty to Hank?

Would you steal for Hank?

Would you lie for Hank?

Would sacrifice your children for Hank?

Would questioning Hank be a sign of disloyalty?

Would you serve Hank blindly forever as his willing slave?

Would you refer to him as your Lord and Master?

Would you kiss his ass?

You likened Hank's natural reward for loyalty to a company's reward for years of loyal service.

Does the word ENRON mean anything to you?

Companies offer benefits for the sole purpose of acquiring the most effort possible out of its employees - it is their own interrests that they are concerned with, period.

The problem with this "expressed loyalty" is that it is open ended. No matter how loyal you might try to be you'll never be loyal enough.

Unless of, course, Hank really doesn't care one way or another about anyone being loyal to him/her/it/them.

But then you have to wonder, Who are all of those loyal followers realy following?

DingoDave said...

Dan Marvin wrote:
"The Christadelphians, by having a Jesus who has a sin nature, cannot have a proper sacrifice by which their sins are atoned for. According to the Old Testament, the sacrifice for sins had to be without blemish (Deut. 17:1). Having a sin nature would definitely be a blemish which would invalidate the sacrifice."

But I thought that most Christians would argue that Yahweh never approved of or accepted human sacrifices. In fact here's a whole thread which discusses this issue on this very website, just several articles down from this one. You might like to read it if you haven't already done so.

Please read your words again Dan, and think carefully about them for a moment.

"Christadelphians cannot have a proper (human) sacrifice by which their sins are atoned for"???
We certainly can't allow them to have an 'invalid' human sacrifice can we now?

How does the concept of your sacrificial god-man really differ from the Aztec priest in the jungles of South America, who would cut out the heart of his bleeding victim in order to cajole his gods into bestowing favour upon him and his people? Can you understand how discustingly primitive and barbaric your words might sound to an unbeliever?
Why aren't Christians ashamed about buying into this kind of moral filth?

Yuck Dan! Just yuck.

DingoDave said...

Tigg13 Wrote: "Do you give Hank 10% of everything you have?"

No, you give it to Karl and he 'passes it on', minus his 'fee for service' of course. ;-)

DingoDave said...

Dear Tigg13,
I should clarify my previous comment.

When I say that Karl takes 'a fee for service', I mean that he earns 100% commission on the deal. :)

Drow Ranger said...

Harry, nice try. But The end of the "days of the Gentiles" was in 1967. And last I checked, all the people living then hadn't died off yet.

Harry McCall said...

drow ranger, you've got me out in left field without a glove on! You've lost me with this last comment.

Drow Ranger said...

It's VERY SIMPLE Harry. When looking at prophecies it is pretty obvious that fulfilment of the End Times ones will take place soon after the "time of the Gentiles" keeping control of Jerusalem is over. The Jews have had control of Jerusalem since like 1967 (six day war). So when Jesus was saying that a particular generation would not taste death until all that stuff was fulfilled, he was talking about the "generation" of all those living during the Gentile Occupation, plus those who were alive when the Jews got Jerusalem back.

Geez, how could you miss that?