Irish Farmer of "Exposing Atheism" to Expose Himself to My Book.
Irish Farmer of Exposing Atheism has apparently started taking the DC Challenge by ordering my book. He said, "if there isn't a good reason to keep the faith, then it isn't worth keeping." I consider his attitude very admirable and worthy of a great amount of respect. Without additional comment and with his permission, here are a few of our emails...
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John,
I finally ordered your book, and depending on how long it takes to get to me, I should be able to at least get a partial review up on my blog. So, if you care, that will be happening as soon as Amazon gets the book in my hands.
-Irish Farmer
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Well, well. This should be interesting. I'm sure you don't have the educational background to argue with everything I wrote about, but that doesn't mean you won't try. My estimation of you just went up there. You are like I once was. You aren't afraid. You think there is nothing in my book that would cause you to doubt, because you believe that your faith beats the competition hands down. I know the feeling, and I wish you well. If nothing else, you will feel like you know me afterward (try not to be too judgmental, okay?) and you will definitely learn a few things, even if in the end you still disagree.
John
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Ha. I won't be too judgemental. You are right about my educational background. To anyone who asks, I will merely tell them that analytic philosophy is a hobby of mine. Sometimes I'll tell them even if they don't ask.
You are right about us having things in common, though I think you overstate my beliefs. When it comes to fundamentalist atheists (like the RRS), I know I'm lightyears ahead of them. However, you'll notice that out of the plethora of atheist books on my wish list, yours was the first I bought (I bought it in tandem with a social-science study of the Ancient Near East). I figured I would start at what I consider the "top". The reason being, I do find myself having a lot in common with you. You and I at least at some time in our lives were heavily into apologetics, and we both had a heart at some time to help educate and edify other Christians. Although my experience with these things just happens to be more recent.
I am not overly confident, however, that I will be unscathed by your book. What makes me, admittedly, a little nervous is how much I do have in common with you. Basically, you're going to be the closest any atheist ever comes to deconverting me (assuming you don't succeed at it, that is). However, IF you book does deconvert me, it wouldn't be for some time. What your book will do in the short term is give me some issues to ponder which, as always, I will research as in-depth as I can with the resources available to me.
I don't make hasty decisions, and I don't take these issues lightly, nor do I take ANYONE at their word. That includes theists. I've been burned before, and I've learned the hard way that you can't trust anyone, you can only take the good with the bad (hopefully the bad is as minimal as possible). What I'm trying to say is that I'm an extremely skeptical Christian. Which can either work in your book's favor, or against it.
What I would recommend, if you ever get around to making a revision of your book on this scale (adding in arguments and whatnot), is addressing modern philosophical defenses of doubt. For instance, one of Craig's talks that really struck a chord with me was his lecture on how the witness of the Holy Spirit helps us deal with doubt. If you truly want to attack the entirety of the Christian worldview, those types of arguments shouldn't be missed. And perhaps you do address it, I'm just assuming you don't.
However, the reason that's important is that Craig's lecture explained something that I had dealt with my whole life. Regardless of how I was living my life, or what my education level was, or whether or not I was doubting my faith, I always felt the existence of God in my heart. This "witness", if you believe such a thing, eventually helped temper my beliefs so that the more I doubted, the more I had reason to believe in the end. I didn't necessarily pay much attention to this witness at times, but it was always there. Based on my own reflection, guided by people like Dr. Craig, I came to understand this is as the whisper of the Holy Spirit in my life. Now, imagine for a moment how "destructive" it would be to me in my moments of doubt if you were to provide a well thought-out argument for why such a witness is invalid. If I ever were to doubt myself, and your argument was sound, I would have nothing to fall back on. It would make your book much more effective.
It might sound strange, me giving you advice on how to deconvert people, but if there isn't a good reason to keep the faith, then it isn't worth keeping. I'd rather see ideas and thought attacked, and eventually developed, then be dogmatic about said ideas. If Christians could not provide a sound response, then it would throw up a couple red flags about Christianity as far as I'm concerned.
-Irish Farmer
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Thank you for your kind response and for honoring me with being the first atheist book you've chosen to read. We do indeed have a lot in common.
You said: "Now, imagine for a moment how "destructive" it would be to me in my moments of doubt if you were to provide a well thought-out argument for why such a witness is invalid. If I ever were to doubt myself, and your argument was sound, I would have nothing to fall back on. It would make your book much more effective."
I do have a critique of the inner witness of the Spirit in my book. And here's what Norman Geisler said about my argument: "...it is a thoughtful and intellectually challenging work, presenting arguments that every honest theist and Christian should face. Indeed, some of his criticisms are valid. In particular I would single out his critique of the subjective argument from the alleged self-authenticating 'witness of the Holy Spirit' by Loftus' former teacher William Lane Craig." (pp. 93-94)
I wish you all the best,
John
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So you do have a critique of the witness of the Spirit? Maybe I should be very careful then...
Irish Farmer
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Why start now? ;-)
John
6 comments:
I do think it is very admirable for him to go through it with an open mind. Just being honest enough to see that he could be wrong, and if his reasons don't hold up, he will change. Self examination is something any honest Christian has to go through at some point in their life, and fewer come out the other side. Most people are only religious, because they don't realize there's another option. You are a great source for going through the process. Like he already said, if he does change, it will take awhile, but I'd take pride in providing that initial spark of reason. I'm sure you've done that on many occasions.
Really any world-view has the same issue. I mean seriously there are plenty of atheists who have become Christians. There are plenty of Christians very well familiar with atheist arguments who are still Christians. There are plenty of atheists who are aware of Christian arguments who are still atheists. Now to what extent either side engages seriously with the other is a fair question, but my point is that it really doesnt prove a whole lot. Derek im not sure what you mean when you say that "most people are only religious because they dont realize there's another option" but if were supposed to read that on a completely literal reading im pretty sure most Christians are well aware that not believing in God is an intellectual option they could hold.
John "Well, well. This should be interesting. I'm sure you don't have the educational background to argue with everything I wrote about," would that be intellectual snobbery or pure arrogance I detect there?
Sala kahle - peace
I noticed that as well akakiwibear, I suppose its just John showing the same respect he demands from everyone else.
@gordonblood
Most Christians in the midwest don't really know any different. When I tell people I'm an atheist, I usually get blank stares as if they've never heard it. Or they just equate it with being immoral. The Christians I know, and that's almost all of the people I come in contact with, don't look at atheism as an intellectual option. In fact, they are completely unconcerned about intellectual options. It seems to me that most of them have an active disdain for intellectuality.
I have had two separate occasions, one with a nun, where I said I was an atheist that trusted in reason and science, and they assumed I was a Scientologist. Yes, Scientologist. Like I said, this probably only applied to fly over country, USA. Most of them grow up with their religion, and never truly question it. They don't understand other forms of Christianity, let alone other religious views. I used to have to explain Catholicism to other Protestant people when I was younger and Catholic.
Derek is right about large swaths of the Midwest and Southeast (I can't speak about other regions of the country). In my hometown, the Catholics were as sacreligious as it got. Most people did not know what an atheist was--they thought it meant "Satanist", with human sacrifices and the whole shebang. Just the idea that someone could opt out of the game altogether never occurred to many of them.
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