The Strange Case of Evangelist Oliver Green and Rudolf Bultmann with a Note on C.S. Lewis
The president and founder of the radio broadcast, The Gospel Hour (still on many Christian stations today), Evangelist Dr. Oliver B. Green (Feb. 14, 1915 – July 26, 1976) loved the fundamentalist theology and good sound King James’ Version of Biblical truth backed by a strong evangelistic preaching of salvation. I used to listen to him in the early ‘70s and hear him complaint about the circulation in his legs “it’s like my legs are on fire”. His website states:
"Early in life it was immediately evident Oliver B. Greene was an independent Baptist. Through all of his ministry he carried the honor of being one who "could not be bought." In 1939, the 24-year-old bought a tent, and for 35 years he conducted revivals all across America, until failing health forced him to stop.
Carefully kept records reveal that over 200,000 found Christ under his ministry. Perhaps his single greatest campaign was in Rocky Mount, North Carolina, where 7,000 professions of faith were registered. He held his last tent revival in Bel Air, Maryland (this tent was 100 feet by 300 feet). "
He died at the rather early age of 61 from cardio-vascular failure. Green also had two sons who suffered form birth defects. One I know from personal experience was born with only one arm (I helped change the avionics in his plane for a one armed control).
On the other hand, Rudolf Bultmann (Aug. 20, 1884 – July 30, 1976) demythologized the Kerygma of the New Testament, wrote Kerygma and Myth and latter Jesus Christ and Mythology in 1958. Bultmann stood for almost everything opposite of Fundamentalist Christianity and yet he died a peaceful death at age 92 (just less than a month short of his 93 birthday and in the same month and year as Green (a providence of God?)). The fact is, this nonbeliever out lived Oliver Green by almost 32 years.
If God blesses those who bless Him and curses those who cruse Him; where is the so called Providential Justice? Also, if as Greek philosophy claims God does not make mistakes; than why were both Green’s sons born birth defects?
Note: In the same vein, apologist C.S. Lewis (1898 – 1963 whose “Mere Christianity” is often pointed to as a defense of the evangelical faith) died also at an early age (when compared to Bultmann) at 64. After his wife Joy died of cancer, he wrote under a pseudonym “A Grief Observed” in which he wrestled with the reality of his faith in Christianity and his struggle to hold on to this faith.
So just how is this Theodicy explained? Unlike the early Christian disciples who died often at an early age for their faith; most meeting their end by martyrdom, these defenders of the faith seem to have been destroyed or cursed by the very God they apologetically defended!
13 comments:
Dr. Robert Price was once asked, "Why would the disciples all die as martyrs? They would not die for their faith if they knew it was a lie. Liars make terrible martyrs." Dr. Price responded, "You're begging the question! We don't really know how any of the disciples died. We have one book telling us some stuff about them, but that's the book we're trying to discover the truth of, so assuming that they died as martyrs is assuming your conclusion."
That stuck with me.
To say that we dont really know how they died is ludicrous. Almost all scholars (I question whether a man who is almost entirely self-published and is on the liberal end of the Jesus-Seminar is a scholar at all) believe the early Christians were persecuted for their faith. Why on earth would you make that up anyways? Robert Price might be a nice guy and know somethings about the New Testament but hes definately not a "mainstream" scholar. Indeed, today I was in conversation with my Religious Studies prof and I mentioned some of the positions people like Price take and she simply chuckled and said that amongst New Testament scholars those views are considered about as credibly as dating the gospels 5 years ater the events they describe. As for age... well thats simply such a nonsensical argument im not even going to deal with it.
You state: "so assuming that they died as martyrs is assuming your conclusion."
Here I would refere you to the Letters of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan or the works of Suetonius on the lives of the Roman Emperors.
Since we are on the subject of truth and martydom; the 9/11 Highjackers died for their Islamic faith which denounces Christianity as false; does that make Islam true?
Please list the first century documents which detail when the disciples died , why and where.
Paul, who was there, records in Galatians 6 that Christians were persecuted on the issue of circumcision, and that Christian leaders compromised their beliefs to avoid persection.
As for longevity, the most prayed for people are the British Royal Family (God must get sick of being asked to save the Queen)
The Queen , her consort , and her mother do seem to live longer than other people.
What about atheists who live to advanced ages? Some examples:
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
Sydney Hook (1902-1989)
Corliss Lamont (1902-1995)
Linus Pauling (1901-1994)
Ernst Mayr (1904-2005)
Dear Harry,
Please forgive me, but this post strikes me as absurd. It presumes that longevity is a blessing; brevity a curse. It assumes that Bultmann wins something; and that Lewis loses. Of course, I wish you would show you work, as they say. How is it that Lewis' early death is NOT a blessing to Mr. Lewis; please show how Nietzsche's death at 54 is NOT proof of Nietzsche's damnation?
I am not suggesting that Nietzsche is damned. I am merely following the rule you've established.
Peace to you,
Bill Gnade
Of course it doesnt Harry... that would be rediculous. It just shows they believed (as do Islamic martyrs) what they died for.
A quick point on Robert Price. He doesn't deny that some Christians were persecuted and martyred. He says we don't know that the disciples were persecuted and martyred. Remember that Pliny writing in the year 100 informs the emperor Trajan that he has no knowledge of what it is these Christians believed, and he had to bring some in to find out. Apparently early Christianity (i.e. the first 70 years) didn't make enough of an impact for someone like Pliny to take notice. Given that, we don't really have good reason to think that the disciples were martyred for their faith, nor do we have any reason to think there was any kind of concentrated effort at persecuting Christians at all.
Interesting post though, Harry.
gordonblood, your attacks on Robert Price are really becoming absurd. His views are no more credible than those that would date the gospels 5 years after the events? Really? And what does being "almost entirely self-published" (false) and "on the liberal end of the Jesus-Seminar" have to do with whether or not he is a scholar, mainstream or otherwise? It's ironic that someone who writes of "nonsensical arguments" can engage in two logical fallacies, the ad hominem and the argumentum ad populum, in the space of a few sentences. Then again, perhaps we can't expect too much from the reasoning skills of someone who believes the new testament still has any credibility as literal history.
bill gnade: You stated: "...this post strikes me as absurd. It presumes that longevity is a blessing; brevity a curse."
Let see what the O.T. says:
Proverbs 10:27 "The fear of the Lord prolongs life, But the years of the wicked will be shortened."
Exdous 20:12 God's Commandment: "Honor your father and mother, that your days mabe prolonged...". Genesis 5 relates longevity with rightousness. Job 42:16-17 reveals Yahweh's blessings in years on him. Just check out Proverbs 9:10-11, I could go on, but a long life is equated with blessings from God.
steve carr you stated: "Please list the first century documents which detail when the disciples died , why and where." Though not a scholarly work, Fox's "Book of Christian Martyrs" is a good place to begin or H. Musurillo's "The Acts of the Christian Martyrs" (Oxford 1972) or, in general, Eusebius' "Church History".
Dear Harry,
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it very much.
I still think the post absurd, irrespective of what you've clipped and pasted from the Old Testament. Surely we can all agree that even without a God or His words, a righteous life, one filled with temperance and love and justice and honesty and balance and goodness and service and hard work, is generally a healthier life, often leading to longevity. Though I have known a few reckless dudes who have been ridiculously hard on their bodies and nonetheless have lived impossibly long lives, it appears to me that this is the exception and not the rule.
With that said, the Psalmist say something like this: Blessed in the sight of the Lord is the death of one of his saints. Apparently, a saint's death -- at any time -- is a blessing. Moreover, we can see in the Old Testament that longevity can be a curse; Hezekiah, I believe, was none too happy living extra years.
So, it would seem to me that the scriptures you cite are not some inviolable rule; you've merely interpreted them as such. In general, the passages are true; but there are exceptions and it is the exceptions to such a "rule" (really more a hopeful promise) that make life interesting.
One could hardly imagine a duller life if the rule you cite was indeed inviolable; that no exceptions could be made. I am tempted to believe that suffering is necessary for life to be interesting; adventures are not one whit adventurous without the real possibility of death. Hence, a righteous man may indeed die young; sort of like when a superstar ball player retires at the top of his game. Oh, how I'd like to go out with a blaze, and not the whimper of old, lonely age! But that may not be my lot; I may have to participate in the full circle of life -- which is also adventurous. But to go out at the top of one's game? Well, that might be too much to hope for. But since each of us cannot know when and how we will go out of this life, life is interesting and engaging to say the least. Certitude of longevity would simply result in waste, at least for many folks like me.
That my statements might lead one to conclude that heaven will be a dull place without the possibility of death is a viable conclusion to reach, but I think such a conclusion would be in the end an over-simplification of all that Christianity is trying to convey to us about death, resurrection, redemption. Nietzsche, my favorite atheist, said something like this: suffering brings out the best in humanity. I could hardly agree more; but it also brings out the worst.
When an atheist like Nietzsche understands the power of suffering, I find solace in the fact that longevity and brevity are both gifts. They are not rules.
Peace to you,
Bill Gnade
Getting back to the original post, what a bizarre post! Dr Bob Jones Jr lived to 89, and his mother lived to 100! Does that mean that God liked Green least, Price better, and the Joneses the best?
Christians do recognize validity in the promise that living a life pleasing to God results in blessings, including longevity, but we certainly don't think that is a guarantee of a trouble free life. In fact, we expect suffering in this life.
Oliver B Green was one of a generation of men who spoke and promoted the idea of "burning out for God." So he did. He never took care of himself in terms of cardiovascular care, and he died young.
He was certainly a limited man, and I cringe when I hear some of his statements. But he would have laughed off your odd "logic."
You can whitter away on sophistries all day long and convince nobody but yourself of anything. Or you can really critique Christian thought. But I think you're a joke.
God is not in the business of satisfying people with long lived lives filled with enormous bank accounts. His existence as a trustworthy, dependable, and reverent God is not in the slightest bit compromised. One cannot ponder our existence and walk with a works mentality that states, “God, you give me everything I want and then I'll serve you. Pay me in long life and abundant riches and keep me from health problems." This is radically self-centered and fundamentally not Christian. My friend, God is not one who needs anyone but desires to have them, despite of their sins. Digging deeper, the article is slanted and not truly addressing the true intent of the writer for the real issue is death. It would be an error in thinking to hinge and turn one's face from the Biblical God due to death since death is inevitable. Death is the outcome of sin (Genesis 3) however, if you read the Bible, God tells us that Jesus has conquered death so the person does not have to merely count or measure their life by the number of days living. For the Christian, their life will pick up with perfection and freedom when they stand before God. They will stand with the knowledge and confidence that Christ has saved them from the 2nd Death. If interested, I would find out about the second death before the first (see the book of Revelation).
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