Converting to Reason
Being new to this blogsite, I was invited to give my "deconversion" story. The truth is, I think I was more "converted" than "deconverted" - or maybe just came out of the closet.
I was a minister for over 25 years, very serious about thoughtful Christianity, a graduate of Emory University with undergrad study in psychology and grad study in religion/theology. Studied anthropology and mythology along the way, because I was fascinated with origins, and because I had a lingering suspicion even in those days that much of what I believed was probably myth. I was a person who chose to believe in the face of dogged unbelief. I struggled with intellectual concerns with Christianity from the day I was "born again" - but my conversion experience was so emotionally gratifying and gave me such acceptance in a tight-knit community that I chose to turn off or "closet" my reasonable objections and simply believe the unbelievable.
And, that is one of the reasons I actually "deconverted" or came out of the closet...I grew tired, after 25 years - of seeing emotion and acceptance be awarded to the converted for choosing to believe something that has no basis in reality. I could no longer live with my own sense of compromised integrity and intellectual dishonesty.
I always questioned my faith, but Christianity and ministry gave me a place, an identity, and frankly a salary, so the questions only took me to a place of constant discontent. I was important and successful in my chosen community because I was a great speaker, a brilliant counselor, and a charming personality. I had exploited the pay-off to my conversion to its maximum effect. But in my moments of reflection I wrestled - not with how to better share Jesus with my flock - but with the nagging inconsistencies of the gospel, the ragged edges of religion and the fact that I really did not believe what I said I believed.
I think the power of religion is that it promises so much, and keeps people "grateful" by keeping them guilty...and withholding emotional validation and acceptance when one strays. Most people I know who are "in faith" are people who have suspended their intellect and accept the package because with it comes occasional emotional validation and acceptance by a group of people. Very few are there because of intellectual reasoning. I hope to meet some on this blogsite.
I am also a believer in evidential consequence. Which means, most of what we know happens because we observe a consequence...a ripple in a pond, thunder after lightning. We understand this as a consequence, even from the earliest age - "mommy, why is the sky blue?" We move backward, examining evidence (which are also prior consequences) until we get to the point of origin...the original action. The rock thrown in the pond, the heated air after a lightning strike. Thus, we learn, and we also put into practice the scientific method.
After 25 years in the organized religious institution, I was nearly asphyxiated due to "lack of evidence" behind the consequence. (What???) I mean - I could no longer justify the lack of genuine belief I saw demonstrated in so-called "believers". The church does not enable inquiry, it shuts it off by pontification and by studying over and over again only the preordained and pre-approved texts. And so we never got anywhere, and we never examined what we said we believed...we just said we believed it and moved on.
When the ripple in the pond is not a ripple, and there is no lightning behind the thunder...then you know it is time to move out and move on.
I have since acquired a more expansive view of "debunking Christianity." Things like: lack of historic evidence, internal inconsistencies in the authoritative document (the Bible - duh!), no sound arguments of proof, being honest about mythological and anthropological origins of the gospel narratives (and indeed the entire Bible, both Old and New Testament).
But, the truth is, I converted - not deconverted. I converted to intellectual honesty. I came out of the closet and admitted...I don't believe this, and I have reasons.
I am a truly happy, born-again and uncloseted agnostic.
Take me on...take on me!
23 comments:
It's a pleasure to have you here and I look forward to your fresh contributions.
Welcome Bro Crow,
I look forward to hearing your reasons and reading posts to comment on. Thank you for your story.
Nice to have you, Crow! I too came away from the ministry for the same reasons, essentially. It'a amazing how the doubts were always there and finally opened my eyes, even while steeped in fundy fanaticism!
(JH)
Welcome, Bro Crow. I still attend church now and again with my wife and now that I have been away for a while, I (like you) am more bothered than ever by the lack of critical reasoning and the general gullibility on the part of most believers. My favorite are the prayers: "God we know that all healing is from you, so we pray that you will guide the hand of the surgeon in operating on bro. so-and-so."
I always questioned my faith, but Christianity and ministry gave me a place, an identity, and frankly a salary, so the questions only took me to a place of constant discontent.
Seeing how you lied to yourself and your associates then, what evidence do we have that you're not lying to yourself and us now?
I've been through this so many times before. In the end it doesn't matter what Darren or others think about our former faith. It personally grates on us, of course, but it doesn't matter. We could just as well ask him if he is a true Christian now. But in the end it's the arguments we offer that the Christian must attempt to answer.
People like Darren and Dan Marvin are cowards who cannot simply sit down at the table like reasonable men and talk. They have to hide behind the bushes and throw stones, then run away when the arguments get a bit too logical for them.
To Darren:
Hmmm...I didn't say I lied to myself. Life, as I understand it, is about ongoing learning...about your context, your universe, yourself. From one day to the next, medical research reveals new and fascinating truths. Did they lie to themselves before? No - they learned more because they studied and researched and discovered.
I did the same thing. I grew, learning more about myself, and learning how to integrate that self-knowledge into my life. It led to a course of action...in this case, departing from an academic, emotional, psychological, social and career identity that I held for over 25 years. What about any of that do you think was easy? I think my actions speak to my integrity in the process.
But...how can you know that I won't lie to you? You can't. How can I know anything about you, or your motives, or your reasoning -r vice versa. You are an anonymous name on an internet site, and so am I...if you are looking here for absolute truth, well, good luck with that.
So, maybe I am lying to you. What will you do about it? That is the question when it comes down to it. I left the ministry and the so-called religious faith that I came to see was a lie.
What will you do?
Heh... it's so easy to get you kids riled up, ain't it?
Hmmm...I didn't say I lied to myself.
Didn't you? You say you purposely avoided addressing your doubts because it "only took [you] to a place of constant discontent". Ignoring your doubts and carrying on like nothing's wrong is classic denial. And you openly admit to lying to others ("I had exploited the pay-off to my conversion to its maximum effect."). Frankly, your confession reveals loads about what kind of person you really are but says nothing about Christianity.
And, sorry, but trying to liken your blatant dishonesty to medical research is laughable, unless you assume medical researchers are in the habit of lying to themselves and their colleagues?
I did the same thing. I grew, learning more about myself, and learning how to integrate that self-knowledge into my life. It led to a course of action...in this case, departing from an academic, emotional, psychological, social and career identity that I held for over 25 years. What about any of that do you think was easy? I think my actions speak to my integrity in the process.
Integrity? You admit to being a hypocrite for 25-years simply because you liked the fringe benefits, and you want to talk about integrity?
So, maybe I am lying to you. What will you do about it? That is the question when it comes down to it. I left the ministry and the so-called religious faith that I came to see was a lie.
But not before milking it as much as you could get away with. Look, we're not talking about someone who was simply mistaken about their world view but someone with severe character flaws. What has your "deconversion" to atheism done, if anything, to help you conquer these flaws? That's the real issue here. Saying "I was wily and duplicitous as a Christian, but now I'm an honest and moral atheist" rings just a little bit hollow I'm afraid.
So, maybe I am lying to you. What will you do about it?
I'm doing it. ;)
welcome aboard!
Bro Crow, I think Darren is JP Holding or a friend of his. He and his followers are as obnoxious as hell. Do a goggle search for him and you'll see for yourself or visit Matthew's site and read through some of his posts.
I think what you meant was that this is the effect of what you did, not that you purposely did it. Or that you were one of those pastors who didn't know anything else do to while your faith was leaving you.
Welcome to the heated debates we see from time to time. Develop thick skin. Ignore these people. Argue against the faith they have that justifies how they treat us.
Thanks for your story, Crow.
Darren should removest the plank in his own eye, I think.
You say you purposely avoided addressing your doubts because it "only took [you] to a place of constant discontent". Ignoring your doubts and carrying on like nothing's wrong is classic denial.
Then what is it when there are well-explained and severe problems with a theistic belief system, but you pretend to yourself and others that these problems either do not exist or are trivial?
And, sorry, but trying to liken your blatant dishonesty to medical research is laughable, unless you assume medical researchers are in the habit of lying to themselves and their colleagues?
Learn to read. He was clearly relating his search for truth and self-discovery to science's search for truth and discovery. If you think scientists to not deceive themselves, then you've never seen science done. Fortunately, we have a community of people ready to point out that you are decieving yourself, and help you find the right path. Theists have a community ready to shun you for even asking, and tell you to shut up and pray harder.
Integrity? You admit to being a hypocrite for 25-years simply because you liked the fringe benefits, and you want to talk about integrity?
Fringe benefits? The emotional, social, and often financial benefits of theism are not fringe benefits, they are the ONLY benefits. If you're condemning someone for believing for those reasons, then you've taken away the LAST useful things theism does. In my mind, those are the ONLY valid reasons for belief. At least you can point to them and say "My belief in God has given me a support structure, a place in the community, and a job where my talents are utilized and appreciated."
But not before milking it as much as you could get away with.
No, he clearly could have gotten away with "milking it" for more. He left, he wasn't kicked out.
Look, we're not talking about someone who was simply mistaken about their world view but someone with severe character flaws.
Sayeth the pot to the fluffy white cloud...
What has your "deconversion" to atheism done, if anything, to help you conquer these flaws?
What flaw? Even if you grant hypocrisy (which I do not), he conquered that flaw by leaving the church and professing what he truly believes, even though it cost him position and status.
Saying "I was wily and duplicitous as a Christian, but now I'm an honest and moral atheist" rings just a little bit hollow I'm afraid.
Then you should either meet more Christians or meet more atheists ;-)
So, maybe I am lying to you. What will you do about it?
I'm doing it. ;)
So if I say I might be lying to you, will you come back and be an ass some more? Please?
Brother Crow, welcome. Don't mind the trolls; they growl, but their teeth are soft and rotten with age and misuse.
EXCELLENT points, Shygetz. Welcome aboard to you, too.
I also welcome you. I knew you'd get the sort of stupidty that Darren came up with -- and be ready for the 'but you were never a REAL Christian' line. Ignore the idiots or make fools of them, and give us your perspectives.
I wonder if you've done much reading in the history of the Bible, not just the mythological orgins, but things like the 'documentary hypothesis' in it's various forms. Be good to get some discussions started on that.
Shygetz:
Then what is it when there are well-explained and severe problems with a theistic belief system, but you pretend to yourself and others that these problems either do not exist or are trivial?
I'm sorry, but I'm not aware of any "well-explained and severe problems with a theistic belief system" that have not been rebutted by equally well-explained and logically sound counter arguments.
No, he clearly could have gotten away with "milking it" for more. He left, he wasn't kicked out.
And then he runs to the nearest atheist blog and all but gloats about how he "exploited the pay-off to my conversion to its maximum effect".
What flaw? Even if you grant hypocrisy (which I do not), he conquered that flaw by leaving the church and professing what he truly believes, even though it cost him position and status.
I wonder if he ever apologized to his former church and congregation for lying to and "exploiting" them? And what about the salary and other gifts he received over the years? Will he be returning his ill-gotten gains? Has he shown even an ounce of remorse for deceiving those closest to him? Not that I can see. In fact, all I see is a poor attempt to blame Christianity for his moral failings.
Seriously, when are you atheists going to learn that telling us how ignorant/gullible/dishonest you were as Christians doesn't exactly lend you a lot of credibility?
----------
Prup:
I also welcome you. I knew you'd get the sort of stupidty that Darren came up with -- and be ready for the 'but you were never a REAL Christian' line.
I didn't say it, *he* said it: "I had a lingering suspicion even in those days that much of what I believed was probably myth. I was a person who chose to believe in the face of dogged unbelief."
And what about the fact that despite his suspicions that Christianity was probably a myth ("probably" indicates that he believed it was a very strong possibility!), he went on to deceive those around him, "exploiting" (his word) those who placed their trust in him? Does any of that sound like a "real Christian" to you?
No, I do not need to ask whether or not he was a real Christian because his own words tell me quite plainly that he wasn't.
Darren said...And then he runs to the nearest atheist blog and all but gloats about how he "exploited the pay-off to my conversion to its maximum effect".
Not so, I pursued him to come here and share his story. So you skew what you're saying in favor of what you want to believe, and that's disengenuous. How then can we not resist the conclusion that you're also misconstruing what you read Bro Crow to say? You basically do not care about him or us anyway. You'd use anything you could to denounce him and us. You look for it. You are unwilling to actually consider that we are being sincere here. Well, I don't think you are being sincere here.
You have blind faith. You're blind as a bat.
John Loftus says: You have blind faith. You're blind as a bat.
I think you give darren too much credit. Bats open their eyes but still do not see well. Darren closes his eyes and brags about his vision.
Darren said: I'm sorry, but I'm not aware of any "well-explained and severe problems with a theistic belief system" that have not been rebutted by equally well-explained and logically sound counter arguments.
Then read around here some more. There is no response to the Problem of Evil that does not require redefining omnipotent, omniscient, or omnibenevolent. There are no responses to the factual errors in the Bible, including my favorite that states that insects have four feet. There are no credible responses to the internal inaccuracies, including the conflicting geneologies of Jesus. Open your eyes.
And then he runs to the nearest atheist blog and all but gloats about how he "exploited the pay-off to my conversion to its maximum effect".
Gloats? Hardly.
I wonder if he ever apologized to his former church and congregation for lying to and "exploiting" them? And what about the salary and other gifts he received over the years? Will he be returning his ill-gotten gains? Has he shown even an ounce of remorse for deceiving those closest to him? Not that I can see.
Did he fail to do his job when he was, as you put it, exploiting them? If not, what should he apologize for? He struggled with questions, came up with answers not covered by dogma, struggled to reconcile those answers with his place in his community, then left. Which part should he apologize for?
In fact, all I see is a poor attempt to blame Christianity for his moral failings.
Funny, I saw an excellet description of Christianity's guilt/comfort system of reinforcement.
Seriously, when are you atheists going to learn that telling us how ignorant/gullible/dishonest you were as Christians doesn't exactly lend you a lot of credibility?
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
I didn't say it, *he* said it: "I had a lingering suspicion even in those days that much of what I believed was probably myth. I was a person who chose to believe in the face of dogged unbelief."
Which many Christian writers have listed as a great feat of faith. It's only the fact that he chose to turn from his faith that causes you to condemn him now. Were he still batting for your side, you would hold him up as an example of perserverance in Christ.
he went on to deceive those around him, "exploiting" (his word) those who placed their trust in him? Does any of that sound like a "real Christian" to you?
He did not claim to exploit anyone. He claimed to exploit the fact of his conversion, to put his talents to use in your cause. If anyone has a reason to be pissed off, it's evangelical rationalists, because we lost a talented member to delusion solely because of what you termed "fringe benefits." You, sir, are a vile deceiver, intentionally misquoting people to lie to your audience. Shame.
Fortunately for your bretheren, I have met enough good Christians to state confidently that you do not sound like a "real Christian."
Shebang! This reminds me of seminary! And board meetings at my old church!
First of all...thanks to everyone who has welcomed me, and even thanks to "darren" who has apparently welcomed me in his own special way. I actually enjoy debate and argument like this, and believe me, thick skin happens in ministry whether you want it to or not.
You know, "darren", perhaps my "confessional" was a bit too subjective and revelatory. I like popping my head out of the hole occasionally...because then people like you take a shot at it, and I know where the enemy fire is coming from.
A couple of observations...you attack me personally, but fail to address the pretty obvious issue that lies behind my confessional approach, and that is - here goes - that much of what fuels Christian faith, or any religious faith at all, is not rational or logical reasoning, but instead deep emotional hunger and a yearning for acceptance by some type of peer group that validate a person. My point is proven by you...and could probably be verified by any honest member of a church or religious group. Rather than try and understand the issue, attack the person and challenge their character.
You must be a real amazing individual that you can discern so much about my character and motives by reading one blog from me on a website. NOT!!!
I suspect that you are as character-challenged as you argue that I am...which is OK, because most of us are. That does not give reason to stop pursuing truth or trying to add to the dialogue that others are having regarding said truth.
Another observation...denial is very much in play here. I admit it...I was very much in denial during my years of faith. That is what faith is...in case it is too much of a mental excursion into honest consideration, let me explain to you...it cannot be faith if it is based on certainty. Faith is not faith if there is not doubt. And since FAITH is the agent of receiving salvation in Christianity, it would seem that faith is an important component. I never knew any Christian anywhere that did not struggle with doubt, and did not occasionally succumb to self-deception and exploitation of it.
You can interpret anything I said any way you want. At least I have told the truth about my how I ended up here, and not there. And if you want to call me a liar, go for it. You are nothing to me. You appear to be a person who would rather attack the vulnerabilities of a person you do not even know (showing what a fool you are) than try and address the serious issues that they are trying to raise.
But I will be posting more, and I look forward to you wrestling with it. CAW!
I am not a believer and never have been. I take no "credit" for this. It is only a fact of my life. But this Darren fellow? I don't know if he's scared or merely deranged, but there's something going on there. That urge, that need to attack, diminish, and ridicule.
I read your opinion and have a question. what are some flaws in Christianity? youve said multiple times that there are many yet you listed none.
I read your opinion and have a question. what are some flaws in Christianity? youve said multiple times that there are many yet you listed none.
I understand as I traveled much of this journey with you. Today, I am a very different kind of "believer" with focus on non-doctrinal metaphysics but am proud you are walking the path of self-discovery in developing your own truths, not that which our once so called friends required so we could be in the club.
Post a Comment