tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post8393715264303548858..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: The Ten Commandments: A Defunct Ancient Israelite CodeUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83268788525255723582009-06-05T06:29:14.692-04:002009-06-05T06:29:14.692-04:00The Christadelphians are most certainly not an Ant...The Christadelphians are most certainly not an Anti-Christ cult!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14609523817861519952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-21032822107696886002008-11-24T15:26:00.000-05:002008-11-24T15:26:00.000-05:00No one's disagreeing the Sabbath was for resting a...<I>No one's disagreeing the Sabbath was for resting and reflecting on God's Word</I>. <BR/><BR/>Right. Then Jesus broke the sabbath.<BR/> <BR/><I>If you want to discuss whether or not Jesus broke the laws of the Sabbath from your understanding of what the BIble says on the matter, start up another thread and I'd be happy to offer my thoughts.</I><BR/> <BR/>What's wrong with this thread?<BR/> <BR/>Can you or can you not address the other arguments I made?<BR/> <BR/>Like In john 5:17 -- it is clear Jesus broke the laws of the sabbath from the bibles understanding on the matter, not just my understanding.<BR/> <BR/>Coupled with the other arguments it is clear Jesus broke the sabbath.<BR/> <BR/>Please address this argument below, specifically.<BR/> <BR/>John 5:17-18 But Jesus said, "My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working." Now the leaders wanted to kill Jesus for two reasons. First, he had broken the law of the Sabbath. But even worse, he had said that God was his Father, which made him equal with God. <BR/><BR/>Jesus admits he was working on the sabbath. Working on the sabbath is wrong. This is the crux of your arguments. Jesus tries to change the rules by making a lame argument by rejecting god's never changing decree.<BR/><BR/>God created the sabbath because he rested on the seventh day. The whole premise of the sabbath was god worked for six days then rested on the seventh, which Jesus completely, contradicts and rejects, by admitting that it's OK for him to work because god supposedly works all the time -- which is a lie and is an insult to the gestation of the premise, that became law, that says, rest and do not work because god actually didn't do any work and actually rested. This is what the entire premise is built on -- which in the end, Jesus -- using faulty logic -- causes to crash and burn into a huge contradictory pile of crap. <BR/> <BR/>--S.sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81604452545539407262008-11-24T11:06:00.000-05:002008-11-24T11:06:00.000-05:00Sconnor,No one's disagreeing the Sabbath was for r...Sconnor,<BR/><BR/>No one's disagreeing the Sabbath was for resting and reflecting on God's Word. <BR/><BR/>The original point being discussed however was why the <B>Jews</B>, not you, were accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath. I asked: "What verses can you provide indicating this was the reason religious Jews wanted Jesus dead?" You then offered up Matthew 12:5 in response. A basic reading of the verse however shows the Jews weren't accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath, something you've been surprisingly hesitant to admit up until now.<BR/><BR/>The simple conclusion is that based on this verse, from the perspective of the Jews Jesus wasn't breaking the Sabbath. Therefore, their argument that Jesus <I>did</I> break the Sabbath obviously isn't based on this particular account in light of the absence of any accusation against him.<BR/><BR/>As for staying in one's home on this day, if it <I>was</I> against the law the step on the Sabbath, based on how badly they wanted Christ dead, the Pharisees, and every other Jew who wanted him dead, would have been watching and waiting for him to step outside of his house. But they didn't. In fact, neither the Pharisees, scribes, priests or Jewish people ever used this as an accusation against Christ. Considering the wealth of evidence elsewhere of people being outside on the Sabbath, we can safely conclude it wasn't wrong to leave the house in this day.<BR/><BR/>As I trust you can see, there are many reasons why your Matthew 12:5 is not an acceptable verse to use to prove breaking the Sabbath was the "main reason the religious Jews felt Jesus must died".<BR/><BR/>If you want to discuss whether or not Jesus broke the laws of the Sabbath from <I>your</I> understanding of what the BIble says on the matter, start up another thread and I'd be happy to offer my thoughts.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84400664354867361202008-11-22T23:14:00.000-05:002008-11-22T23:14:00.000-05:00The 'evidence' you've provided thus far is limited...<I>The 'evidence' you've provided thus far is limited to one verse and it's an inferred argument at best. This this what your entire premise is based on?</I><BR/><BR/>Well that, coupled with the overwhelming amount of verses that speak of resting and reflecting on god's holy day.<BR/> <BR/>Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the <B>sabbath of rest, an holy convocation</B>; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings<BR/><BR/>Which means:<BR/>You have six days when you can do your work, but the seventh day of each week is holy because it belongs to me. No matter where you live, you must rest on the Sabbath and come together for worship. This law will never change.<BR/> <BR/>Evidently, Jesus changes the whole thing. (John 5:17 But Jesus said, "My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working.")<BR/> <BR/>Which one is it? work on the sabbath or don't work on the sabbath? <BR/>God works all the time or god does rest -- which is what the entire premise of the sabbath is based on.<BR/>Once again, the creator of the universe is not unequivocal.<BR/> <BR/>Was Jesus resting on the sabbath? No -- he broke the sabbath. <BR/>Was he reflecting and worshiping on god's holy day? No -- he broke the sabbath.<BR/> <BR/>Sconnor~If an owner of a wheat field -- sitting on his ass doing nothing -- supervised his workers on the sabbath, is he not guilty of breaking the sabbath?<BR/><BR/><I>You tell me - Did the Pharisees think Jesus was breaking the Sabbath in Matthew 12:5?</I><BR/><BR/>I contend it is breaking the sabbath.<BR/> <BR/>This was a question directed at you. Can you answer it? Or is your answer because the pharisees didn't say anything then it would be alright to be the boss man, supervising on the sabbath?<BR/> <BR/><I>Hm. This verse doesn't say to "stay inside". You do know the phrase "go out" isn't indicative as to whether or not someone is "inside" a home, right...?</I><BR/><BR/>Well it's indicative enough, so that other translations interpret it as staying at home:<BR/> <BR/>CEV Everyone is to stay home and rest on the Sabbath." 30And so they rested on the Sabbath. <BR/>ESV Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day."<BR/> <BR/>What this makes clear is that Jesus was out of his place, wasn't resting and was not reflecting god's special day. He was out tromping around, in wheat fields, and Jewish meeting places -- he broke the sabbath according to you and the bible. <BR/> <BR/><I>So when Jesus went to the Pharisees home (on the Sabbath) in Luke 14:1, it would have been a perfect opportunity to accuse Jesus of breaking the Sabbath and subsequently have him sentenced to death. Did they?</I><BR/> <BR/>Non-sequitur. Just because they didn't sentence him doesn't mean he <I>wasn't</I> breaking the sabbath.<BR/> <BR/>Putting the "staying at home" argument to the side, does Jesus rest and reflect on god's holy day?<BR/>Does he not admit to working on the sabbath? You know the argument you use to make "resting" insignificant.<BR/> <BR/>• But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou <B>shalt not do any work</B>, (Exd 20:10)<BR/><BR/>• Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for <B>whosoever doeth any work therein</B>, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (Exd 31:14)<BR/><BR/>• Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: <B>whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day</B>, he shall surely be put to death. (Exd 31:15)<BR/><BR/>• Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: <B>whosoever doeth work therein</B> shall be put to death. (Exd 35:2)<BR/><BR/>• But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it <B>thou shalt not do any work</B>, (Deu 5:14)<BR/><BR/>• Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, <B>neither do ye any work</B>, (Jer 17:22)<BR/><BR/>God's pretty clear. And Jesus admits to working on the sabbath. Hmmmmmmmmm? He broke the sabbath.<BR/> <BR/>Sconnor~Not only is Jesus admitting he is working on the sabbath, he uses a lousy excuse. An excuse that renders the whole premise of the sabbath a complete wash out.<BR/><BR/><I>So now Jesus wasn't breaking the Sabbath...</I><BR/> <BR/>Wh- wh- What? Now, you are just playing dumb and IGNORING the rest of the argument.<BR/> <BR/>Jesus admits he was working on the sabbath. Working on the sabbath is wrong. This is the crux of your arguments. Jesus tries to change the rules by making a lame argument by rejecting god's never changing decree.<BR/> <BR/>Care to address this dilemma specifically?<BR/> <BR/>God created the sabbath because he rested on the seventh day. The whole premise of the sabbath was god worked for six days then rested on the seventh, which Jesus completely, contradicts and rejects, by admitting that it's OK for him to work because god supposedly works all the time -- which is a lie and is an insult to the gestation of the premise, that became law, that says, rest and do not work because god actually didn't do any work and actually rested. This is what the entire premise is built on -- which in the end, Jesus -- using faulty logic -- causes to crash and burn into a huge contradictory pile of crap.<BR/><BR/>--S.sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-33264486471921569772008-11-22T18:41:00.000-05:002008-11-22T18:41:00.000-05:00Sconnor,You said:I think the evidence shows god wa...Sconnor,<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/><I>I think the evidence shows god wants his people to stay home, rest and reflect on his holy day, you think otherwise.</I><BR/><BR/>The 'evidence' you've provided thus far is limited to one verse and it's an inferred argument at best. This this what your entire premise is based on?<BR/><BR/><I>If an owner of a wheat field -- sitting on his ass doing nothing -- supervised his workers on the sabbath, is he not guilty of breaking the sabbath?</I><BR/><BR/>You tell me - Did the Pharisees think Jesus was breaking the Sabbath in Matthew 12:5?<BR/><BR/><I>No, obviously, I don't agree; especially when in this verse it says to stay inside.<BR/><BR/>"Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."<BR/>~and~<BR/>Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings</I><BR/><BR/>Hm. This verse doesn't say to "stay inside". You do know the phrase "go out" isn't indicative as to whether or not someone is "inside" a home, right...?<BR/><BR/><I>Nope, if they were following the letter of the law -- they -- Jesus, the disciples and the pharisees, should have been at home resting, reflecting on god's holy day.</I><BR/><BR/>So when Jesus went to the Pharisees home (on the Sabbath) in Luke 14:1, it would have been a <I>perfect</I> opportunity to accuse Jesus of breaking the Sabbath and subsequently have him sentenced to death. Did they?<BR/><BR/><I>Not only is Jesus admitting he is working on the sabbath, he uses a lousy excuse. An excuse that renders the whole premise of the sabbath a complete wash out.</I><BR/><BR/>So now Jesus <I>wasn't</I> breaking the Sabbath...Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11527712007274052282008-11-22T17:06:00.000-05:002008-11-22T17:06:00.000-05:00It's not an assumption. Moses instructs the people...<I>It's not an assumption. Moses instructs the people to gather the manna for six days because on the seventh day there won't be any. Some of the people ignored Moses and went out anyway to gather more.</I><BR/> <BR/>Right, it's not an assumption that god instructed people to gather manna for six days because on the seventh day there would be none. It's an assumption <I>to assume</I> that god was upset about the the gathering of manna on the seventh day, rather than being upset about them not resting at home and reflecting on god's holy day.<BR/><BR/>It's not unequivocal that god wants them to stay inside for resting and refection or stay inside so as to not to <I>go a collecting</I>. Too bad the creator of the universe couldn't be more clear.<BR/><BR/>I think the evidence shows god wants his people to stay home, rest and reflect on his holy day, you think otherwise.<BR/><BR/>Again rationalize anyway you want, as long as you can make it fit your conclusions.<BR/> <BR/>Bottom line is, god says, both, don't do any work and rest. It's a holy day used for reflection.<BR/> <BR/>Exodus 35:2 <BR/>Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, <B>a sabbath of rest</B> to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. <BR/> <BR/>How exactly did Jesus use that day, when his disciples were out collecting wheat?<BR/> <BR/>If an owner of a wheat field -- sitting on his ass doing nothing -- supervised his workers on the sabbath, is he not guilty of breaking the sabbath?<BR/> <BR/><I>There's nothing in these verses that instructs the people to stay inside. Do you agree?</I><BR/><BR/>No, obviously, I don't agree; especially when in this verse it says to stay inside.<BR/> <BR/><B>"Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."</B><BR/>~and~<BR/>Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day <B>is the sabbath of rest</B>, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD <B>in all your dwellings</B><BR/> <BR/><I>What you're glazing over is the fact that it's not Jesus the Pharisees are accusing of breaking the Sabbath in Matthew 12, it was the disciples. So based on the Pharisees accusations, there's no rational argument that can be made claiming Jesus was breaking the Sabbath here. I trust you agree?</I><BR/><BR/>Nope, if they were following the letter of the law -- they -- Jesus, the disciples and the pharisees, should have been at home resting, reflecting on god's holy day. <BR/> <BR/>Now it's you who is ignoring.<BR/> <BR/>(John 5:17 But Jesus said, "My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working.") Which completely renders god's commandment to rest on the sabbath, obsolete.<BR/> <BR/>Not only is Jesus admitting he is working on the sabbath, he uses a lousy excuse. An excuse that renders the whole premise of the sabbath a complete wash out.<BR/> <BR/>God created the sabbath because he rested on the seventh day. The whole premise of the sabbath was god worked for six days then rested on the seventh, which Jesus completely, contradicts and rejects, by admitting that it's OK for <I>him</I> to work because god supposedly works all the time -- which is a lie and is an insult to the gestation of the premise, that became law, that says, rest and do not work because god actually didn't do any work and actually rested. This is what the entire premise is built on -- which in the end, Jesus -- using faulty logic -- causes to crash and burn into a huge contradictory pile of crap.<BR/><BR/>Crucify the heretic for breaking god's law.<BR/><BR/><BR/>--S.sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23572541576344282142008-11-22T09:32:00.000-05:002008-11-22T09:32:00.000-05:00Sconnor,Are you serious? I know it's a terrible th...Sconnor,<BR/><BR/>Are you serious? I know it's a terrible thing to admit you're wrong but come on, you can't be this ignorant...<BR/><BR/>First, let's deal with this. You said:<BR/><BR/><I>Stay home and rest. Pretty, straight forward rule. Now if god -- while scolding Moses -- was singularly, disturbed by the action of picking up manna, you would have thought he would have been more susicnt. ("I told you kids not to pick up manna on the sabbath") But he doesn't say that. He seems particularly, clear on the whole "staying at home" and "resting" thing. You know, what Jesus wasn't doing. Now, I understand your argument you think it was a scolding to stay at home, because they were gathering manna. It is an assumption on your part.</I><BR/><BR/>It's not an assumption. Moses instructs the people to gather the manna for six days because on the seventh day there won't be any. Some of the people ignored Moses and went out anyway to gather more. God gets angry and asks Moses how long they're going to disobey Him. He reminds Moses that He gave the people the sixth day to gather twice as much manna, meaning there was no good reason to go out on the seventh day to gather manna. <BR/><BR/>Seems awfully straightforward, no...?<BR/><BR/>Moving on to "resting" vs. "self imposed house arrest". "Resting" is in relation to doing no "work", not locking yourself up in your home, unable to step outside. Note:<BR/><BR/>• But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: <B>in it thou shalt not do any work,</B> (Exd 20:10)<BR/><BR/>• Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: <B>for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.</B> (Exd 31:14)<BR/><BR/>• Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: <B>whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.</B> (Exd 31:15)<BR/><BR/>• <B>Six days shall work be done,</B> but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: <B>whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.</B> (Exd 35:2)<BR/><BR/>• But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: <B>in it thou shalt not do any work,</B> (Deu 5:14)<BR/><BR/>• Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, <B>neither do ye any work,</B> (Jer 17:22)<BR/><BR/>I trust you're getting the picture. Don't do any WORK on the Sabbath. There's nothing in these verses that instructs the people to stay inside. Do you agree?<BR/><BR/>Here's where it gets amusing. Philip said Jesus was "gathering" and that's why he broke the Sabbath. What was Jesus gathering, Philip? You then followed this up by saying Jesus was breaking the Sabbath because he wasn't at home and resting, like everyone was apparently supposed to do. Were the Pharisees at home, SC?<BR/><BR/>What you're glazing over is the fact that it's not <I>Jesus</I> the Pharisees are accusing of breaking the Sabbath in Matthew 12, it was the <I>disciples</I>. So based on the Pharisees accusations, there's no rational argument that can be made claiming <I>Jesus</I> was breaking the Sabbath here. I trust you agree?<BR/><BR/>As I've shown you, unless you're intentionally being ignorant (and I sincerely hope you're not) it was <B>working</B> on the Sabbath that was forbidden - whether gathering manna, or gathering sticks, or tilling the field. It wasn't forbidden to leave the house. Among numerous other examples in the Bible, this is confirmed by the silence of the Pharisees in Luke 14:1 when Jesus went into the <I>house of a Pharisee</I> to eat bread on the Sabbath.<BR/><BR/>I hope you can now see the problem with merely regurgitating the arguments the Pharisees used against Jesus...Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-79780623137460379002008-11-22T03:36:00.000-05:002008-11-22T03:36:00.000-05:00I'm not ignoring the verse, you're ignoring what I...<I>I'm not ignoring the verse, you're ignoring what I'm saying. Moses was speaking to the Israelites on the Sabbath, right? Now if the law stated no one was allowed to leave their house on the Sabbath under punishment of death, then Moses wouldn't have been telling them not to leave their houses while they were all outside their own houses. Instead, the "no one is to go out" commandment has to do with collecting manna:</I><BR/><BR/>Still reeeeeeaching for straws. <BR/> <BR/>"Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."<BR/><BR/>Contextually, god is scolding them for not resting on the sabbath; that's what god wants them to do -- right?<BR/> <BR/><I>Back to Matthew 12:5 - you were originally using the Pharisees argument to prove Jesus broke the Sabbath. Except that Jesus wasn't working on the Sabbath.</I><BR/> <BR/>Nor was he resting.<BR/> <BR/><I>Then you said he shouldn't have been outside in the first place,</I><BR/> <BR/>Yep, still sticking with the context of Exodus 16: 27-29<BR/> <BR/>Here's another, more, straight forward translation: <BR/> <BR/>A few of the Israelites did go out to look for some, but there was none. 28Then the LORD said, " Moses, how long will you people keep disobeying my laws and teachings? 29Remember that I was the one who gave you the Sabbath. That's why on the sixth day I provide enough bread for two days. Everyone is to stay home and rest on the Sabbath." 30And so they rested on the Sabbath. <BR/> <BR/><B>Stay home and rest</B>. Pretty, straight forward rule. Now if god -- while scolding Moses -- was singularly, disturbed by the action of picking up manna, you would have thought he would have been more susicnt. (<I>"I told you kids not to pick up manna on the sabbath"</I>) But he doesn't say that. He seems particularly, clear on the whole "staying at home" and "resting" thing. You know, what Jesus wasn't doing.<BR/> <BR/>Now, I understand your argument you think it was a scolding to stay at home, because they were gathering manna. It is an assumption on your part. <BR/> <BR/>I'm sticking with the words god says "Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."<BR/> <BR/>It doesn't say, "Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out <I>as pertaining to the collecting of manna</I>."<BR/> <BR/>I contend that the main idea of the verse is god wants his people <B>to keep the sabbath holy, and stay home and rest</B>, while you are fixated on the manna.<BR/> <BR/><I>But the Pharisees aren't priests.</I><BR/><BR/>I concede this point; my mix up. <BR/><BR/>Still, god is wishy-washy and is equivocating.<BR/><BR/>Should everyone rest on the sabbath? <BR/><BR/>Should everyone stay where they are on the sabbath? <BR/><BR/>When god lays down the law:<BR/><BR/>Ex.20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day<BR/><BR/>Isn't this a proclamation that everyone should rest on the sabbath?<BR/><BR/>How come the priest get to work?<BR/><BR/>Isn't Jesus responsible for his apostles while they collected wheat on the Sabbath?<BR/><BR/>Was Jesus resting on the sabbath? <BR/><BR/>exemptions and equivocations.<BR/> <BR/>Now, it's OK for the priest to do it or because David ate some bread, in the house of god, or if a lamb gets stuck in a pit and/or evidently, god never stops working, even though he did after he was all tuckered out creating the universe and all (John 5:17 But Jesus said, "My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working.") Which completely renders god's commandment to rest on the sabbath, obsolete.<BR/> <BR/><B>GOD COMMANDS ALL TO REST ON THE SABBATH DAY AND KEEP IT HOLY</B> -- unless this, or that, or whatever rationalization someone can come up with to supersede this commandment.<BR/><BR/>--S.sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12315705386051673642008-11-21T21:54:00.000-05:002008-11-21T21:54:00.000-05:00Sconnor, I'm not ignoring the verse, you're ignori...Sconnor, <BR/><BR/>I'm not ignoring the verse, you're ignoring what I'm saying. Moses was speaking to the Israelites on the Sabbath, right? Now if the law stated no one was allowed to leave their house on the Sabbath under punishment of death, then Moses wouldn't have been telling them not to leave their houses while they were all <I>outside their own houses</I>. Instead, the "no one is to go out" commandment has to do with collecting manna:<BR/><BR/><I>"And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: <B>to day ye shall not find it in the field</B>... And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the <B>seventh day for to gather,</B> and they found none."</I> (Exodus 16:25,27)<BR/><BR/>Back to Matthew 12:5 - you were originally using the Pharisees argument to prove Jesus broke the Sabbath. Except that Jesus wasn't working on the Sabbath. You ignored this. Then you said he shouldn't have been outside in the first place, and that the Pharisees were allowed to be outside because they were priests. But the Pharisees aren't priests. You ignored this as well. What other brilliant arguments do you have up your sleeve? <BR/><BR/>What "work" was Jesus doing in Matthew 12:5?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-30507781076702647932008-11-21T19:45:00.000-05:002008-11-21T19:45:00.000-05:00See, Moses was speaking to the Israelites on the S...<I>See, Moses was speaking to the Israelites on the Sabbath (16:25) which would have been difficult to do if everyone was locked up tight in their homes. Instead, the obvious conclusion is that it was work that was forbidden on the Sabbath, not stepping outside for a breath of fresh air or taking a brisk walk around the town. This explains why there's no record of anyone ever being punished for being outside on the Sabbath and why the Pharisees didn't accuse Jesus of committing such a heinous crime.</I><BR/><BR/><B>"Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."</B><BR/><BR/>Just ignore this verse, ignorrrrrrre, ignorrrrrrre.<BR/><BR/><I>Anyhow, back to Matthew 12:5 - what was your point again?</I><BR/><BR/>Just another of a whole line of equivocations.<BR/> <BR/>Should we work on the sabbath? Shouldn't we work on the Sabbath? <BR/> <BR/>Should <B>everyone</B> stay where they are or not? Does <B>no one</B> mean <B>no one</B>?<BR/><BR/>...but I know jason Christadelphian has it all figured out, by adding layers of interpretation, making assumptions, that lead to strained conclusions. Just as long as it makes perfect sense to you jason. <BR/><BR/>--S.sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14232041757936804612008-11-21T17:04:00.000-05:002008-11-21T17:04:00.000-05:00That's right - they weren't to collect manna on th...That's right - they weren't to collect manna on the Sabbath. <BR/><BR/>See, Moses was <I>speaking</I> to the Israelites <I>on the Sabbath</I> (16:25) which would have been difficult to do if everyone was locked up tight in their homes. Instead, the obvious conclusion is that it was <I>work</I> that was forbidden on the Sabbath, not stepping outside for a breath of fresh air or taking a brisk walk around the town. This explains why there's no record of anyone ever being punished for being outside on the Sabbath and why the Pharisees didn't accuse Jesus of committing such a heinous crime.<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, back to Matthew 12:5 - what was your point again?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25478184269093577692008-11-21T15:19:00.000-05:002008-11-21T15:19:00.000-05:00Exodus 16:27-29 27 Nevertheless, some of the pe...Exodus 16:27-29<BR/> <BR/>27 Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28 Then the LORD said to Moses, <B>"How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath</B>; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. <B>Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."</B>sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65028698044531548312008-11-21T14:00:00.000-05:002008-11-21T14:00:00.000-05:00The instruction for every man to "stay in his plac...The instruction for every man to "stay in his place" in Exodus 16:29 had to do with gathering the manna (verses 25-88), not with the Sabbath laws. This is why later on leaving the home on the Sabbath was perfectly acceptable. It explains why no one was ever killed for leaving their house on the Sabbath, why the people came across the man gathering sticks on the Sabbath, why the Pharisees were out and about on the Sabbath, why Jesus and his disciples were out and about on the Sabbath and why people were in the synagogue on the Sabbath.<BR/><BR/>Regarding Matthew 12:5, yes, the law allowed the priests to work in the temple on the Sabbath. But seeing as the Pharisees weren't priests, I'm still not sure what your point is...?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1841856559668182652008-11-21T12:18:00.000-05:002008-11-21T12:18:00.000-05:00What does Matthew 12:5 have to do with the Pharise...<I>What does Matthew 12:5 have to do with the Pharisees being outside of their homes on the Sabbath?</I><BR/><BR/>Evidently, the law of moses allows the priests to go outside of their homes so they can work at the temples -- not my screwed up rules.<BR/><BR/>--S.sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43979948755100002112008-11-21T12:15:00.000-05:002008-11-21T12:15:00.000-05:00Exodus 16:29 The LORD hath given you the sabbath. ...Exodus 16:29 <BR/>The LORD hath given you the sabbath. ... abide ye every man in his place, <B>let no man go out of his place on the seventh day</B>sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-60777736433719352292008-11-21T12:09:00.000-05:002008-11-21T12:09:00.000-05:00Sconnor,What does Matthew 12:5 have to do with the...Sconnor,<BR/><BR/>What does Matthew 12:5 have to do with the Pharisees being outside of their homes on the Sabbath?<BR/><BR/>And the laws regarding the Sabbath aren't contradictory - you're just misunderstanding them. The law of the Sabbath didn't require anyone to "stay at home" which is why no one was ever punished or chastised for merely being outside on the Sabbath.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11114952988818361032008-11-21T10:44:00.000-05:002008-11-21T10:44:00.000-05:00By your logic, the Pharisees should have been at h...<I>By your logic, the Pharisees should have been at home and resting as well - but they weren't.</I><BR/><BR/>Matthew 12:5 <BR/>Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?<BR/><BR/>Which means: Haven't you read in the Law of Moses that the priests are allowed to work in the temple on the Sabbath?<BR/><BR/><I>And certainly there shouldn't have been anyone at the synagogue where Jesus finds the man with the withered hand - but there was. Even the guy gathering sticks in Numbers 15 - was he punished for picking up sticks or leaving his house? And look at this, the Pharisees even held a 'council' after Jesus heals the man! Wouldn't holding "councils" be considered work...?</I><BR/> <BR/>It's not my logic, it's your bible's idiotic and contradictory logic. Your fight is with your asinine holy book.<BR/><BR/>--S.sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38451550071498041892008-11-21T10:06:00.000-05:002008-11-21T10:06:00.000-05:00Jason, for a member of a cult that denies Romans 1...Jason, for a member of a cult that denies Romans 13, I guess you will deny the Talmud written by Jewish Torah scholars which tells us Jesus was a blasphemer who broke both the oral and written Law.<BR/><BR/>So Jason, Biblically, why can’t Christadelphian vote? <BR/><BR/>You keep wanting Bible facts and proofs here, but seem totally deceived by the Christadelphian false doctrines. Amazing!!Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43111246035754742312008-11-21T09:50:00.000-05:002008-11-21T09:50:00.000-05:00Sconnor,By your logic, the Pharisees should have b...Sconnor,<BR/><BR/>By your logic, the Pharisees should have been at home and resting as well - but they weren't. And certainly there shouldn't have been anyone at the synagogue where Jesus finds the man with the withered hand - but there was. Even the guy gathering sticks in Numbers 15 - was he punished for picking up sticks or leaving his house? And look at this, the Pharisees even held a 'council' after Jesus heals the man! Wouldn't holding "councils" be considered work...?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54347697365592574762008-11-21T09:33:00.000-05:002008-11-21T09:33:00.000-05:00Philip,No, it was Christ's disciples who were doin...Philip,<BR/><BR/>No, it was Christ's <I>disciples</I> who were doing the gathering, not Christ himself. I would say this is a rather important distinction.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13207360551301087422008-11-21T01:52:00.000-05:002008-11-21T01:52:00.000-05:00Exodus 16:29 The LORD hath given you the sabbath. ...Exodus 16:29 <BR/>The LORD hath given you the sabbath. ... abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. <BR/> <BR/>Exodus 31:13-15 <BR/>Six days my work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. <BR/> <BR/>Exodus 34:21 <BR/>Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest. <BR/> <BR/>Exodus 35:2 <BR/>Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. <BR/> <BR/>Leviticus 23:3 <BR/>Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD. <BR/> <BR/>Being that you were suppose to stay home and rest -- anything Jesus did on that day would be breaking god's commandment.<BR/><BR/>But obviously, in order, for jason to salvage his idiosyncratic, interpretation of scripture, he'll have to do back flips and mental gymnastics -- rationalizing, either, that it was OK Jesus broke the sabbath or that Jesus didn't break the sabbath.<BR/><BR/>Rationalize it away, rationalize it away.<BR/><BR/>--S.sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43658131900899137332008-11-20T21:18:00.000-05:002008-11-20T21:18:00.000-05:00The Law prohibits working on the Sabbath, which ba...The Law prohibits working on the Sabbath, which back then included gathering (need I remind you of the man put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath), and that's what Jesus was doing. <BR/><BR/>To say that what he was doing did not break the Jewish Sabbath means you're doing your own personal interpretation over that of the Jewish priests (which is strange: if you trust the Jewish priests to have accurately written down the traditions of the Flood, Moses, etc, why not trust that their interpretations were accurate from the beginninc as well?)Philip R Kreychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13079037983351521346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67425643276830580402008-11-20T19:17:00.000-05:002008-11-20T19:17:00.000-05:00Christadelphians attack and denied the Bible and J...Christadelphians attack and denied the Bible and Jason is a prime example of it. Plus, Romans 13 is also a good example of how the Christadelphians are totally anti-Christ cult!<BR/><BR/>I caught Jason with his pants down and he now can NOT defend his heretical cult even though he write pages of false doctrines trying to trick any poor soul into the poison doctrines of the Christadelphians that his mind is poisoned. Little wonder all his blog’s theology about the Christadelphian truth is nothing but BS!<BR/><BR/>Now I can really see how the Christadelphian theology sucks in dense people like Jason. I’ll cite Romans 13 and poor Jason is exposed with his false theology of a unbiblical cult since Jason’s cult, the Christadelphian, must totally reject Romans 13.Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61459552446543240182008-11-20T16:27:00.000-05:002008-11-20T16:27:00.000-05:00Philip - the question was answered from the point ...Philip - the question was answered from the point of view of the Pharisees, not from the perspective of the law itself. There's an undeniable difference between the two. In reality, Jesus was doing nothing wrong in Matthew 12 or John 5 to warrant the claim he was "breaking" the Sabbath.<BR/><BR/>And Jesus was put to death based on accusations of blasphemy, not for breaking the Sabbath. Matthew 25 clearly supports this.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43397713513266558722008-11-20T14:34:00.000-05:002008-11-20T14:34:00.000-05:00Jason, he answered your question. Don't be a smart...Jason, he answered your question. Don't be a smartass.Philip R Kreychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13079037983351521346noreply@blogger.com