tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post792864078789039995..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Top Seven Ways Christianity is Debunked By the SciencesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11498632150682288352010-08-09T11:15:19.657-04:002010-08-09T11:15:19.657-04:00@Rev:
Wow. Try removing the beam from your eye. P...@Rev:<br /><br />Wow. Try removing the beam from your eye. Perhaps I'm more interested in following less blogs so I can be more productive with my time than trying to start following yet another one for a mini-debate session. This thread is obviously dead so there's no reason you can't just write whatever you want right here.<br /><br />Re. the genesis enigma... um... it's on <i>your</i> blog as a response to John's formulation of the difficulties with Genesis!<br /><br />It's simple enough to write a quick summary of why my summary is wrong from Genesis 1:<br /><br /><i>- Universe + earth<br />- Bunch of activity about the great deep and water and land separation<br />- Vegetation<br />- Then the sun, moon, and stars</i><br /><br />That's the order. Right from scripture.<br /><br />Earth <i>before</i> sun and moon and stars. Sun <i>after</i> vegetation.<br /><br />You still have not responded to why there is <i>any reason, whatsoever</i> to suspect that the separation of light from dark was some retro-prophetic insight about the development of the human eye.<br /><br />I'm not scared, I just don't see this as being possibly fruitful. You'd be better off just doing what the Catholic Church does and saying that Genesis is figurative. All you have to believe is creation ex nihilo and in some sort of fall.jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11861100361375239932010-08-09T06:36:48.407-04:002010-08-09T06:36:48.407-04:00@ Hendy,
You said,
If the genesis enigma post s...@ Hendy,<br /><br />You said,<br /><br /> If the genesis enigma post summarizes what you support then I think we're probably just going to be at a standstill.<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />Hmm no but if your scared then fine!<br /><br />You said,<br /><br /> If so, I disagree with Parker for my listed reasons and you find him to have an accurate assessment.<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />Your assessment is biased and un-historical but again not my problem clearly you are more concerned with posts on this blog than truth. <br /><br />Phil.Reverend Phillip Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066146652758132098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15582600558173172582010-08-09T06:34:11.717-04:002010-08-09T06:34:11.717-04:00@ Mike,
You said,
but it is clear that they are ...@ Mike,<br /><br />You said,<br /><br />but it is clear that they are not to be seen as an elite group of Christians, <br /><br />My reply,<br /><br />Who said they were elite? Clearly you seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Not my problem. <br /><br />Phi.Reverend Phillip Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066146652758132098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55685156175574680162010-08-06T14:30:01.432-04:002010-08-06T14:30:01.432-04:00@Rev:
Eh. If the genesis enigma post summarizes w...@Rev:<br /><br />Eh. If the genesis enigma post summarizes what you support then I think we're probably just going to be at a standstill. If so, I disagree with Parker for my listed reasons and you find him to have an accurate assessment. That's that and we can probably call it a day.jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52661499215251132542010-08-06T08:32:03.853-04:002010-08-06T08:32:03.853-04:00Phil, I don't see the concept of the the rever...Phil, I don't see the concept of the the reverend, clergy etc. in the New Testament. With the trinity, one could argue that the concept of it is taught in the Bible, even if the exact word, Trinity, is not used. This is debatable, but one could legitimately argue this point. <br /><br /> Yes, we see leadership, but it is clear that they are not to be seen as an elite group of Christians, which the clergy is viewed as. Even though I am no longer a Christian, the book, "Pagan Christianity" which was written by two evangelical Christians, George Barna and Frank Viola, had a strong influence on me in that caused me to see how many of the traditions of institutional churches are completely man-made, and not even Biblical, if someone is using the Bible as their authority, which I'm sure you claim to do. <br /><br />Let's face it. Without the clergy-laity system, you'd actually have to work for a living, so you need this system to continue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-73352872067279575792010-08-06T00:26:06.222-04:002010-08-06T00:26:06.222-04:00@ Hendy,
Can I suggest we go at it on this topic ...@ Hendy,<br /><br />Can I suggest we go at it on this topic of a blog post. I'll offer mine and if you agree we can go from there, the comment strand here is pretty off topic?<br /><br />Phil,<br /><br />P.S. sorry about the typo.Reverend Phillip Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066146652758132098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4279754588410490032010-08-06T00:04:23.034-04:002010-08-06T00:04:23.034-04:00@Rev:
Hendy != Henday
Re. Adam: it's nice to...@Rev:<br /><br />Hendy != Henday<br /><br /><b>Re. Adam:</b> it's nice to have any reason whatsoever to suppose the mechanism or manner in which a soul, mind, etc. were added to matter since evolution does no posit such a substance or component. Without any reason, why suspect that we are anything but higher-order mammals with greater intellects but nothing spiritual whatsoever. You have a book that tells you we have souls and therefore look for a way to make Adam real. Do you see it differently?<br /><br /><b>Re. starting points:</b> science as the starting point, not necessarily materialism. One is a method of obtaining truth, the other is a worldview. While materialism is dependent on science, the reverse is not true. Science has exposed the mechanisms by which thousands of events once not understood are not understood. This is why I propose that we start with science rather than ancient books.<br /><br />What's my assumption? I assume that we evolved which is proven. If you're talking abiogenesis or cosmology, that's another issue.<br /><br /><b>Re. flipping idea:</b> If you call Parker's excerpt from your site a confirmation of Genesis... I'm doubtful.<br />--- You're going to stretch "separated light from day" to be a retro-prophesy of the evolution of the first photoreceptive eye?<br />--- Parker clearly leaves out Gen 1:1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." What, pray tell would that be? The universe and other galaxies and the <i>earth</i>? The earth did not exist at the same time as the rest of the universe, it appeared much later.<br />--- Parker also omits god's making of the <i>stars</i> themselves. He completely avoids having to deal with what it would mean in v.16 that god created a "greater light" (sun) and a "lesser light" (moon) to do what it says in v.17: "to give light to the earth."<br /><br />So we have:<br /><br />- Universe + earth<br />- Bunch of activity about the great deep and water and land separation<br />- Vegetation<br />- <i>Then</i> the sun, moon, and stars<br /><br /><br />How could you possibly twist this to mean something other than what scripture says: that god <i>"created"</i> the sun, moon, and stars after the earth and universe? Perhaps others should comment, as I find the stretch to make this out to be connected to the evolution of the eye to be preposterous.<br /><br />In any case, you'll have to cite some Church Fathers and many others along the way to show that the church has held anything close to this for 2000 years.<br /><br />Unless you just meant "general belief about god" in which case it is the dominant theory compared to other beliefs. What frustrates me (and would moreso as a believer) is how if Christianity is so set apart with respect to evidence, historical support, and science... how in the world do millions and millions continue on blissfully believing in Xenu and Jesus stopping by Utah or wherever post-resurrection for a little mini-mission of starting Mormonism? Seriously, how is god allowing people to be hoodwinked by such literal silliness compared to his obvious superiority in the god-scene?<br /><br />That probably comes off sounding like an a-hole, but I really mean it and not in an a-hole way. As someone searching I find it incredibly frustrating that so many can supposedly believe in utter sh*t even though Christianity has been on the scene for 2000 years with better evidence, miracles, scientific backing, and apologists. What gives?jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38983866646130017372010-08-05T19:42:27.701-04:002010-08-05T19:42:27.701-04:00@ Henday,
Thanks for taking the time to look at m...@ Henday,<br /><br />Thanks for taking the time to look at my blog.<br /><br />You said,<br /><br />Did these other humans have souls and moral capacities?<br />If so, how does Adam's sin perpetuate concupiscence through future generations if others were not in his lineage?<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />Not sure they did but we will presume, I think the same way Adam's sin went through into creation. <br /><br />You said,<br /><br />What grounds is there for suspecting that Adam was a man such that:<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />The writer of Genesis does not address these questions so any response here is mild speculation. Why are these necessary to answer for your position?<br /><br />You said,<br /><br /> Wouldn't it make more sense to start with what we know of the origins of man and then deduce whether what the Bible comes along and tells us millions of years later is even feasible?<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />Why would it make more sense. Your assumption about what we not about man creates a bigger assumption about how man got there? Why is the materialists position a better starting point than the religious. <br /><br />You said,<br /><br />Why is it so difficult to hypothesize that it was written by ancients who had no flipping idea what in the world was going on and we can leave it at that<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />No flipping idea except they got the order of creation almost identical to the scientific history of the earth as we now know it. This is a far cry from no flipping idea and shows a biased world view on your behalf. Wouldn't it be better if you accepted that this theory has been the dominant theory for the last 2 thousand years and with what we know we have not been able to disprove it.<br /><br />Phil.Reverend Phillip Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066146652758132098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-48497632745941053592010-08-05T11:06:20.379-04:002010-08-05T11:06:20.379-04:00...cont
Infinite Comprehension
Regarding the PoE,...<i>...cont</i><br /><br /><b>Infinite Comprehension</b><br />Regarding the PoE, who says that it's something "infinite" to be comprehended? How about a summary like, "It's for a greater good along the lines of this parable..."? The trinity is indirectly presented in scripture and it's supposedly infinite. Why couldn't the problem of evil have been addressed?<br /><br />An alternative hypothesis is that the writers of the gospels simply wrote what was pertinent at the time and had no omniscient being inspiring them to write timeless words. The only questions addressed were the ones necessary to get things off the ground. No one addressed scriptural discrepancies, the horrid deeds in the OT, and no hints at answers to the PoE.<br /><br />All you have, as was the case with Adam, is a presupposition (god is good for PoE, scripture is true for Adam) followed by an attempt to scrape together support of that presupposition. This is a poor methodology. Simply examine the evidence first, then decide whether anything written in scripture is supported by the best evidence of your time.<br /><br />Even better, be objective and ask the experts in various fields of study whether <i>they</i> see the connection between, say, cosmology and Genesis as amazingly strong. Then move on and find out if evolutionary biologists think the fall plausible. Then continue.<br /><br />If experts in the field did not support the view of theologians who pull these evidential cases together, what would you think?<br /><br /><b>Science in 2k years</b><br />I don't know what I'd think if it still didn't have an answer. I guess I find it unlikely that science will be stumped given it's smashing success constantly over the last 2-300 years except if oil runs out or is banned and alternative energy is not identified and thus we have pretty much an end to civilization's current choice of activities.<br /><br />My hope would be for science to either continue to negate the need of a "mind" or "soul" or gather so much information that it becomes more and more necessary to <i>have</i> such a component. I'm not staunch atheist. I'd love for their to be support of Jesus and Christianity but am simply unconvinced. <br /><br />Christianity could do worlds of good with the power of the one true god on its side. Why aren't there any specific, predictive prophecies for our time and generation? Why not a global "Doubting Thomas" tour to commemorate 2000 years of being resurrected so we can all touch his hands, feet, and side? How about a pillar of cloud or fire in every major city in every country to occur every Christmas or Easter?<br /><br />My prayer is simply, "Jesus, give me something I can't deny." That's all it would take.<br /><br />I find any activities of a timeless, spaceless, all-powerful, all-knowing, and loving god which are confined to mistranslated, copied, fragmented books and one time and one place amidst a ridiculously superstitious people... odd.<br /><br />Literally, what of that sets him apart from the <i>manner</i> in which the other myriad of religions have come about?<br /><br />Do you realize what it would do if for once a god did something like a pillar of cloud or a return to earth every single year? The promises of "I will be with you always, even to the end of the age" and of god's love and compassion and of wanting all to be saved and know him... would <i>finally</i> be manifest in some way other than the reassuring words of preachers on Sunday.jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24167115738958590722010-08-05T10:46:50.285-04:002010-08-05T10:46:50.285-04:00@Rev:
Adam
Your blog is unsatisfying. All you do ...@Rev:<br /><br /><b>Adam</b><br />Your blog is unsatisfying. All you do is read Paul and then assert that Adam must have been a real person along with claims that other homo ______'s could have lived before but Adam had a special place of dignity.<br /><br />- Did these other humans have souls and moral capacities?<br />--- If so, how does Adam's sin perpetuate concupiscence through future generations if others were not in his lineage?<br /><br />- What grounds is there for suspecting that Adam was a man such that:<br />--- His parents had no immortal souls and he had one<br />--- His parents had no relationship with god but he did<br />--- His parents had no moral capacity but he did<br />--- His parents were not aware of god's commands but he was?<br /><br />I'll leave it at that. Other than scripture, I can't see any reason for supposing anything like Adam or the fall. Wouldn't it make more sense to <i>start</i> with what we know of the origins of man and then deduce whether what the Bible comes along and tells us millions of years later is even feasible?<br /><br />Why is it so difficult to hypothesize that it was written by ancients who had no flipping idea what in the world was going on and we can leave it at that? Recall that this creator did come along and lead his beloved people to murder tens of thousands for not being believers in him...<br /><br /><b>Answering power</b><br />Regarding "everything coming out in science's favor" I mean that 2000 years have elapsed in which Biblically or spiritually derived answers to the problems of the world could have been proposed and verified. What happens instead, however, is that these answers have been rested on since they were penned, never again to be changed, and science has come along and uproot them. The Catholic Church, for one, is not so infrequently removing the necessity for literal interpretations of various books like Genesis and Revelation, for example.<br /><br />An interesting question would be whether the writers intended these books to be "figurative" of if they thought that these things actually happened.<br /><br />Flood?<br />Exodus wanderings?<br />Parting of the Red Sea?<br /><br />Were things of this nature <i>intended</i> to be figurative? I doubt they were canonized as such.<br /><br />In any case, Christians hypothesize a soul and mind. If we come to understand the brain more fully such that no "ghost in the machine" is even remotely required... what will this do? Or will you retract and simply claim that it's still there but a "mystery"?<br /><br /><i>cont...</i>jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14580170421655563612010-08-05T00:53:01.446-04:002010-08-05T00:53:01.446-04:00Hendy said,
"In any case, what about the fac...Hendy said,<br /><br />"In any case, what about the fact that extremely intelligent people have been pondering theology for 2000+ years and not answered things like the PoE (or gained any revelation directly from god on that matter or any others). Why criticize science for lack of certain understandings when 1) we've barely been thinking in a consistent manner about it for more than 2-300 years and 2) we've just barely begun to develop the necessary instruments to study these things?<br /><br />What will the scene look like when science has had a fair playing field for it's own 2000 years?"<br /><br />Indeed.<br /><br />I can't begin to count the number of times I've been confronted by some Christian or another, smug in his "knowledge" that science has not solved X,Y and Z...<br /><br />as if science were a static, finished product with nothing more to offer beyond what we know TODAY.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47514752808503801902010-08-04T23:08:31.693-04:002010-08-04T23:08:31.693-04:00@ Hendy,
You said,
Other than simply stating tha...@ Hendy,<br /><br />You said,<br /><br />Other than simply stating that we must believe in a figurative fall scenario with literally nothing to go on... <br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />The case is cumulative. See my blog on the creation accounts. <br /><br />You said,<br /><br />Regarding the consciousness... so far everything else that's been non-understood has come out in science's favor.<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />Not sure what you mean here? How has everything come out is science favour. <br /><br />You said,<br /><br />Paul thought Adam was real, for example. Was he or not? If not, could Paul's theology be incorrect?<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />I think Adam was a real person, and have argued thus on my blog, for objects see http://christianityversusatheism.blogspot.com/search/label/Science%20and%20Genesis<br /><br />You said,<br /><br />t people have been pondering theology for 2000+ years and not answered things like the PoE (or gained any revelation directly from god on that matter or any others)<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />But it makes sense that finite creatures cannot grasp infinite things, I don't see a problem there. <br /><br />You said,<br /><br />Why criticize science for lack of certain understandings when 1) we've barely been thinking in a consistent manner about it for more than 2-300 years and 2) we've just barely begun to develop the necessary instruments to study these things?<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />Not criticising science at all! Happy for science to keep going full throttle, but what would it take you yourself to come to the conclusion that science does not have all the answers, another 2000 years? If so then there is little point dialoguing with you about its limits?<br /><br />Phil.Reverend Phillip Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066146652758132098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40255788916811630062010-08-04T19:23:49.735-04:002010-08-04T19:23:49.735-04:00@Rev:
I'll respond more later, perhaps. Re. s...@Rev:<br /><br />I'll respond more later, perhaps. Re. science vs. the Bible, have a read at my post <a href="http://www.unequally-yoked.com/2010/07/chatting-with-catholic-deacon-tonight.html?showComment=1279943590170#c7421227224239732795" rel="nofollow">HERE</a> and see what you think about the discussion of the fall.<br /><br />Other than simply stating that we must believe in a figurative fall scenario with literally nothing to go on... why would we be compelled to believe anything other than being higher-order animals?<br /><br />Regarding the consciousness... so far everything else that's been non-understood has come out in science's favor. Wouldn't you agree? I would say that science hasn't disproved the Bible (as you say) only because Biblical interpretation continually moves passages from literal to figurative, thus explicitly taking them out of harm's way. Paul thought Adam was real, for example. Was he or not? If not, could Paul's theology be incorrect?<br /><br />In any case, what about the fact that extremely intelligent people have been pondering theology for 2000+ years and not answered things like the PoE (or gained any revelation directly from god on that matter or any others). Why criticize science for lack of certain understandings when 1) we've barely been thinking in a consistent manner about it for more than 2-300 years and 2) we've just barely begun to develop the necessary instruments to study these things?<br /><br />What will the scene look like when science has had a fair playing field for <i>it's own</i> 2000 years?jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-44509357838695743222010-08-04T18:53:27.883-04:002010-08-04T18:53:27.883-04:00@ Mike,
No worries about it being off topic.
Yo...@ Mike,<br /><br />No worries about it being off topic. <br /><br />You are correct that there is no ordination per se in the Bible or people called 'clergy'.<br /><br />However there are leaders appointed to teach and preach the word or God and are set apart through the 'laying on of hands,' (Acts 8:18, Acts 9:17, 1 Timothy 5:22 etc) <br /><br />It is true that our church govern structure uses terms not present in the Bible but it is not true that it is unbiblical. A good illustration is the word 'trinity' this word does not appear anywhere in the Bible yet it is throughly a Biblical term. <br /><br />I hope that I am humble and work hard at it. But titles do not denote humility. The reason I have the title on this blog is to mark out who I am to atheists clearly and save further dialogues. <br /><br />Phil.Reverend Phillip Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066146652758132098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-51690311154048924712010-08-04T18:42:06.419-04:002010-08-04T18:42:06.419-04:00@ Hendy,
You said,
Do you think that a larger po...@ Hendy,<br /><br />You said,<br /><br />Do you think that a larger portion of the 2MM believers would have a better level of familiarity with these topics compared to the population of atheists/agnostics?<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />In Australia, absolutely and probably in Britain also. As I said there is no cultural attache with being religious in these societies. <br /><br />You said,<br /><br />You didn't respond to my links to various archeological issues with Biblical stories. What do you think about those in response to your statement that you doubt archaeology has shown anything in contradiction to the Bible.<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />Yea Sorry I did not, time is limited. I will try and get to them asap. But I fear this thread would be dead by then as the moderation makes commenting slower. <br /><br />You said,<br /><br />You pointed out, for example, that neuroscience doesn't know what causes neurons to fire and thus correlation != causation. I agree that these two are often not as closely related (or related at all) as one might think, but note your off-hand dismissal of even the possibility.<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />There was no dismissal, just lack of evidence. The atheists love to point out the God of the gaps fallacy but as just as adept with there own science of the spaces. What we do not about neurones is that the subjective mind can change the objective circuitry of the Brain. This at worst is prime evidence that materialism is false and at best evidence of a soul?<br /><br />I have not found one scientific fact that is in conflict with biblical Christianity. (This will spark no doubt more links from you but can I suggest looking at my blog first...)<br /><br />Phil.Reverend Phillip Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066146652758132098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49089982771244443852010-08-04T18:33:28.356-04:002010-08-04T18:33:28.356-04:00@ Hendy,
You said,
especially one who has de-con...@ Hendy,<br /><br />You said,<br /><br />especially one who has de-converted, is more familiar with the various apologetics (pro-theism) and arguments against theism personally than most believers.<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />I think this point has more to do with culture than anything else. In Australia religion is seen as a personal and private thing and it is definitely carries a low social status. Take for example our new female prime minister, an self proclaimed atheists who did not swear in with her hand on the bible. If anyone believers in australia they usually do so after careful consideration of both sides of the arguments. <br /><br />Phil.Reverend Phillip Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066146652758132098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71412323443329119212010-08-04T14:11:51.043-04:002010-08-04T14:11:51.043-04:00@Parmeniclitus:
Good point. I remember the first ...@Parmeniclitus:<br /><br />Good point. I remember the first time it was pointed out that Paul says <i>nothing</i> about Jesus' life or deeds. He repeats the words of the last supper but who knows where he got that from.<br /><br />Other than that... nothing. No virgin birth, no miracles, no direct quotes. I find that <i>so odd</i>.<br /><br />As previously stated, believers seem not to find this surprising at all (or train themselves to keep a straight face when it's brought up), responding "Well, what do you expect? Paul didn't <i>meet</i> Jesus!"<br /><br />But Paul himself says that he received his teaching directly from Jesus and also says that he went to Jerusalem to "verify" his teachings with the apostles, who give him the A-OK.<br /><br />But imagine trying to "preach" the message of someone while not mentioning <i>anything</i> of his/her words. How helpful it could have been in any number of Paul's letters to say, "Now, brothers and sisters of Corinth, in the matter of marriage and divorce, let us call to mind Jesus' own words on the matter when he said..." or any other number of instances.<br /><br />Given that Paul is the founder of Christian theology... how can we be sure that his teachings are what Jesus wanted? I'm surprised more people don't find this odd and troublesome. We just seem to "tack on" anything Paul said as legit but fail to see that he bases nothing that he says in anything from the life and teachings of the son of god himself.jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86414148818307445132010-08-04T12:56:08.265-04:002010-08-04T12:56:08.265-04:00Mike-
Bear in mind that Christianity, particularl...Mike-<br /><br />Bear in mind that Christianity, particularly after Saul of Tarsus, is an ideology *about* Jesus, not a religion based in the teachings of Jesus, and even later gave itself to hierarchy mirroring the Roman State. Christianity is nothing but the opportunistic quest for power over people, hence its incoherence and inconsistence, such as taking in new scientific knowledge when convenient (ie. the Big Bang).Rufous H. Byrdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00762164989806318495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49577030546838478602010-08-04T11:19:48.445-04:002010-08-04T11:19:48.445-04:00Hey Phil, I want to ask you something. Sorry that&...Hey Phil, I want to ask you something. Sorry that's it totally off topic. But since I'm sure you claim to follow the Bible, where in the Bible is there a clergy system which puts people in two classes: clergy and laity? Also, where in the Bible do you see a person refer to himself as reverend? This seems to be a way of identifying yourself as part of an elite group of people: the clergy. Doesn't this contradict the call of Jesus to be humble and to serve? <br /><br />I just think this is a total confirmation that you, like all Christians, claim to follow and believe the Bible, but like anyone else, you really don't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47960909726509656552010-08-04T10:58:34.155-04:002010-08-04T10:58:34.155-04:00@Rev:
I see your point but would wonder what othe...@Rev:<br /><br />I see your point but would wonder what others here might say to the fact that I find it more likely that a non-believer, especially one who has de-converted, is more familiar with the various apologetics (pro-theism) and arguments against theism personally than most believers.<br /><br />The question becomes, "<i>Why</i> are you rejecting the apologetic proposition?"<br /><br />In my experience, non-believers tend to be aware both of the existing apologetics as well as the reasons they are not compelling. Most believers in my circles do not have any responses to my questions/doubts/reasons-for-nonbelief but simply point me to speak with person x or read book y.<br /><br />My point is that they present an a priori assumption that they are not wrong and that I will find a satisfying answer elsewhere... <i>but</i> they have never tackled the issue themselves.<br /><br />Many non-believers I have run into are non-believers specifically because they <i>have</i> tacked these issues first hand and found one side more appealing.<br /><br />This forum probably isn't an accurate representation, as most who discuss here are obviously no apathetic to the top but care very much about it. A telling comparison would be to test the non-believing and believing populations to find out how familiar each is with various arguments and counter-arguments, theological terms, etc. <i>as a percentage of the population</i>.<br /><br />Do you think that a larger portion of the 2MM believers would have a better level of familiarity with these topics compared to the population of atheists/agnostics?<br /><br />---<br /><br />I do seek to consider various arguments. I have a post series <a href="http://technologeekery.blogspot.com/2010/07/whats-so-great-about-christianity_2046.html" rel="nofollow">HERE</a> on D'Souza's What's So Great About Christianity. I read this book at the request of a believing friend. I don't think he was particularly persuasive, but at least note that I desire to write responses and summaries of my thoughts rather than chucking the book in the trash afterward with no thought behind such an action.<br /><br />---<br /><br />You didn't respond to my links to various archeological issues with Biblical stories. What do you think about those in response to your statement that you doubt archaeology has shown anything in contradiction to the Bible.<br /><br />---<br /><br />Lastly, what do you think about the claim that much of theology when it comes to reconciling itself with science rests on the "mystery" or "unexplained" cards? You pointed out, for example, that neuroscience doesn't <i>know</i> what causes neurons to fire and thus correlation != causation. I agree that these two are often not as closely related (or related at all) as one might think, but note your off-hand dismissal of even the possibility.<br /><br />Essentially, the soul has been reduced to acting through a physical medium, the brain. What is your hypothesis as to what the mind/soul actually do? Simply push the buttons and pull the levers of the the brain? Is whatever hypothesis you hold testable in any manner? Or would you simply say, "Look at how different we are than animals! We have some something substantive that they don't!"?jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83082445947582570632010-08-03T21:09:03.598-04:002010-08-03T21:09:03.598-04:00@ Hendy,
You said,
The point is that I think one...@ Hendy,<br /><br />You said,<br /><br />The point is that I think one hears something that might contradict faith but the possibility that this fact could actually be a serious threat never enters the mind. Instead one simply dismisses it, quotes some blurb from someone who they think has already dealt with the objection, or finds an apologist with an answer, skims their article, and moves on with life being satisfied that somewhere, someone has the answer and that's all that matters.<br /><br />My Reply,<br /><br />I agree, but when I dialogue with atheists I see the exact same tactic employed from the other direction. They here a good apologetic or a good argument and then just dismiss it and quote Dawkins or Harris without actually looking at their own world view and asking what would it take to change my own mind. In your assessment I see no difference between the believer and the atheists here. <br /><br />Phil.Reverend Phillip Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066146652758132098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55619086894865871432010-08-03T17:16:51.151-04:002010-08-03T17:16:51.151-04:00Hendy-
You wrote: "I see these two as quite ...Hendy-<br /><br />You wrote: "I see these two as quite the remaining fort from which believers like to hurl rocks:naturalism can't explain thought coming from matter, so there!"<br /><br />Haha! How true.<br /><br />The problem of both camps, that is, the "naturalist" camp as well as that of the true believers, is that the former have taken the parameters of the latter, to some extent, in reducing everything *down* to "physics."<br /><br />I think what is lacking are the parameters of the original Greek sense of the term "physis" which are far wider than what the term has come to mean, particularly after Platonism and Christianity. Given the tendency to "reduce to..." allows for the false dichotomy of "spirit vs. matter" to live its life artificially.Rufous H. Byrdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00762164989806318495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63258725428870306142010-08-03T16:34:12.735-04:002010-08-03T16:34:12.735-04:00@Parmeniclitus:
I'm aware that the CC support...@Parmeniclitus:<br /><br />I'm aware that the CC supports both the Big Bang and evolution. I see them doing this at the expense of scriptural certitude, but most do not agree.<br /><br />The more science, history, and archeology unearth, the more it seems like portions of the Bible are removed from the "literal" bin and placed into the "figurative." What remains is a set of unsupported assertions that will almost certainly never be proven or disproven evidentially:<br /><br />- evolution is true, but believe that one man and one woman (or one group) of the first humans chose against god<br /><br />- the Big Bang is true, but just believe that it was god who existed before (whatever "before means" in relation to no time existing...) and brought everything into existence from nothing<br /><br />- Gen and Rev are not to be taken literally; they are figurative manifestations of god's actions<br /><br />Stuff like that. So while claims like "the Bible isn't a pure history book" or "don't read the Bible like that; it's not a science text book" abound... when it comes to the reality of the fall, the existence of Jesus and his miracles and resurrection... a quick flip of the switch is made to literal mode. Now we <i>must</i> believe that his words were copied verbatim and that he really did and said all that was written about him.<br /><br />I think in straining to support scientific developments many churches are at least far more reasonable than fundamentalists but also make themselves vulnerable to the advances of the future. I'm especially looking forward to more solidly accepted theories about the evolution of consciousness and morality or supporting the existence of these things in animals. There are at least some studies supporting these phenomenon, but I see these two as quite the remaining fort from which believers like to hurl rocks: naturalism can't explain thought coming from matter, so there!jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62335788665867934952010-08-03T14:38:16.267-04:002010-08-03T14:38:16.267-04:00Hendy-
The Catholic Church has stated that the Bi...Hendy-<br /><br />The Catholic Church has stated that the Big Bang is a-OK for believers to believe in. However, the difference between most scientists and believers on this is the use of "our universe" rather than "*the* universe" on the part of the scientists. The Big Bang acts as an inspiration for further research for scientists whereas, most believers just say "See! I told you, this makes Christianity true through and through."... all the while not realizing that many cosmogonic myths began in a similar fashion.Rufous H. Byrdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00762164989806318495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4270240696624511032010-08-03T14:30:18.739-04:002010-08-03T14:30:18.739-04:00Lvka wrote: "scientists of this field (philol...Lvka wrote: "scientists of this field (philologists) have reached the conclusion that some of his famous plays were NOT written by him -- but unfortunately thay WERE, so... you see, every general assumption has to be taken with a grain of salt, and NOT obeyed to the absurd."<br /><br />Yes, a great and famous philologist whose (de-contextualized) quote opened the OP, namely Nietzsche, would probably agree with you here. However, he would also probably say that "truths" themselves cannot be obeyed to the absurd, for they have no hard boundaries as a "things-in-themselves", or "essences," particularly when, (literally) translated, into language which is, itself, metaphor. Style and content are inextricably interwoven (hence, Nietzsche's own experimentation with differing styles, including his use of the ad hominem). This seems to be lost on Christians as well as many a hardened atheist, given that style is usually shoved aside to find the "essential" content in the name of logical "truth". He knew better and realized that we've been largely chasing shadows, many that *only* exist within, and as, language (ie. "God," "the Absolute" "Laws of Nature" etc). <br /><br />Anyway, given the fact that theist and atheistic "content" hunters alike continue to separate content from style (or put in another way, "truth" from "appearances") they've considered a man who was perhaps the most consistent philosopher and deepest thinker, as inconsistent and even scattered due to his style and his philological play (which includes wagon-loads of etymological references). I think his philosophy hasn't even begun to be taken as seriously as it could, particularly by self-avowed "atheists." As for, theists, they will remain as they've been regarding him...Rufous H. Byrdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00762164989806318495noreply@blogger.com