tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post7764853975041366537..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Reasonable Doubt About the Holy SpiritUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88192911469960081682010-06-28T14:15:40.016-04:002010-06-28T14:15:40.016-04:00Hey. Just a couple of things I would like to comme...Hey. Just a couple of things I would like to comment on. You have obviously done a lot of thinking with your post. I can't claim to be an expert on the faith but I can give my experience. First of all it's important to know what is said about not all who claim to be believers truly are, so that could explain differences of opinion. I have met people from different denomionations, some of which I don't agree with myself, but their prayers have certainly helped me in tangible ways. With regards the Holy spirit helping us interpret the Bible. Before I came to Christ I couldn't make head nor tail of what it said - it was a jumble of non-sense. But from the very first time I read it after becoming a believer it very much became clear to me what it had to tell me. And don't forget that the Christian God is a personal God. We are all individuals and He knows each of us inside and out and knows what each of us need. Also important to point out is that those who turn away from the faith were never truly believers. For all I know in my "rational" mind I could very well turn from the faith one day. All I know is that I would never want to because it is the one thing that has ever been able to help me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69354619281352438182007-07-20T08:48:00.000-04:002007-07-20T08:48:00.000-04:00You all should be "on the same page".Why? It's nec...<I>You all should be "on the same page".</I><BR/><BR/>Why? It's necessary, when describing something that is beyond our ken, to use metaphorical language. Using our imaginations, individuals come up with different ways of 'seeing' the invisible, while realizing the same essential truths.<BR/><BR/>Do you have a problem with metaphorical language? Even science uses metaphor; Light is described both as being like a wave and a particle. Certain particles are described as occupying two places simultaneously or covering vast distances instantaneously. Illogical, but probably 'true'.<BR/><BR/>There are differences among scientist as to how they envision atomic structures and molecular molecules - we all know that these models that we remember sitting on our teacher's desks are grossly innacurate, yet in some way still presenting the truth.Christian Beyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694448485953779168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37049131352425464542007-07-20T00:23:00.000-04:002007-07-20T00:23:00.000-04:00Hi Christian,when you agree with me that you are n...Hi Christian,<BR/>when you agree with me that you are not uniquely Christian, you prove my point about the Holy Spirit not giving guidance. You all should be "on the same page".<BR/><BR/>akikiwibear,<BR/>Is it fair to say that since you say haven't finished reading my article, you have jumped to a conclusion? If that were true would you say that it was guidance from the Holy Spirit or personal bias?<BR/>when you say that it is not a given that the holy spirit is god, and presumably you are getting your guidance from the holy spirit, then you should have not doubt. It can't tell you about itself with any certainty? Or maybe it is your self talk that is not certain, in any case, you are not certain, and that is my point. You should be certain if you are getting supernatural guidance from the Holy Spirit.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67352771695979380192007-07-19T23:16:00.000-04:002007-07-19T23:16:00.000-04:00You're welcome. BTW, what exactly is your point?You're welcome. BTW, what exactly is your point?King Otthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11719101519748741966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-20761141149348791882007-07-19T20:28:00.000-04:002007-07-19T20:28:00.000-04:00I apologise for presenting you with what I conside...I apologise for presenting you with what I considered a satirical view of your argument without alerting you to the fact. Of course my simple argument was flawed, but no more so than your thesis on the HS. I hoped you would be able to draw the parallel without it being pointed out. <BR/>Clearly your argument is well crafted, you have certainly convinced yourself. But I am not sure of what. It is a delight to see atheists arguing about the true nature of God! However to see the same tricks being turned again and again is boring. <BR/>P1a – not a given as you point out yourself. <BR/>P1b – these terms are not defined by you and there is disagreement as to their precise place in modern theology. Surely you do not expect anyone to treat as serious argument akin to the “Argument of Evil”.<BR/>P2 – you assume an automatic response, that is interesting and contrary to a lot of Christian teaching and P3c itself uses the word ‘should’.<BR/>I am getting bored with this and I haven’t made it to the really dodgy part of your argument yet. <BR/>Why not get to the nub of the issue? Is there a spiritual realm, albeit one we do not yet fully understand? Your choice is simple, <BR/>Either to accept the significant volume of credible first hand accounts (yes we all know there are a lot charlatans out there, but be discerning for once) … <BR/>or to accept the finely crafted cockamamie that “proves” these people to be liars. <BR/>It is a matter of choice!akakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23712549632867347992007-07-19T17:39:00.000-04:002007-07-19T17:39:00.000-04:00Hi Christian,Thank you for helping to illustrate m...Hi Christian,<BR/>Thank you for helping to illustrate my point.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57750824508785907102007-07-19T16:23:00.000-04:002007-07-19T16:23:00.000-04:00Lee, you said;what you are describing here is not ...Lee, you said;<BR/><BR/><I>what you are describing here is not uniquely christian.</I><BR/><BR/>Yep.<BR/><BR/><I>I have friends of other religious persuasions that are just as convinced as you. Some god you got there.</I><BR/><BR/>That's right, he is a god that is too big for just us Christians. We need to tear down some of these dogmatic walls that we build.<BR/><BR/>Because I believe this is why more than a few of my Christian friends believe that I am an:<BR/><BR/><I>a·pos·tate (ə-pŏs'tāt', -tĭt) pronunciation<BR/>n.One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.</I><BR/><BR/>Because I have left their particular version of the faith behind, in the process changing some of my principles and letting go of a cause or two.<BR/><BR/><I>I get inspired all the time. I write thoughtful articles all the time, I write songs, i think up funny things to say...</I><BR/><BR/>Evidence of God's creative spirit in your life.<BR/><BR/>My remark about depression, psychosis or cynism was not meant to be in anyway insulting. My wife suffers from depression and before she received effective treatment it was almost impossible for her to experience any lasting joy, sense of creativity or hope. There was plenty of spiritual (as well as material reasons) for her to be happy, she just could not sense them.<BR/><BR/>I used to be a fundamentalist and I wasted a lot of time trying to listen for God, asking feverishly for his Holy Spirit to descend and fill me with ecstasy, those mountain top experiences that were so few and far between.<BR/><BR/>Thank God he led me out of that morass. There is a lot of bunk out there being tossed off as theology. Little of it has to do with the Gospel.<BR/><BR/>Now, I'm confused; are you guys atheists or more strictly anti-christian? Your website's name could mean that you might easily be comfortable with Buddhism, Judaism or Druidism. In any case, I think you might want to stop using the extreme examples to justify your arguments. Heck, we can all play that game, right? The it all boils down to nothing more than contest between competing tally sheets.Christian Beyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694448485953779168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-45612375314663124632007-07-18T15:55:00.000-04:002007-07-18T15:55:00.000-04:00Those dang HTML tags are kickin my ass!Those dang HTML tags are kickin my ass!Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77539039125000821072007-07-18T15:54:00.000-04:002007-07-18T15:54:00.000-04:00"But the HS doesn't verify does it?"Actually yes h..."But the HS doesn't verify does it?"<BR/><BR/>Actually yes he does.<BR/><BR/>"Is there a right one?"<BR/>Yes there is.<BR/><BR/>"If it does how do you account for all the wrong interpretations?"<BR/><BR/>You summed it up pretty well.<BR/><BR/>"If I were god, I'd set up a method whereby people know in no uncertain terms what the right interpretation is, and that if they don't agree then they are wrong, and give them a little note on their pillow when they get up in the morning reminding them that I love them and do the right thing. It wouldn't be any sweat for me if I was omnipotent and spanned the ages.<BR/><BR/>And please don't tell me it would take away our free will because it wouldn't in the same way that it doesn't take away my free will to see someone that needs help getting a door open and i make the decision to do it because it is the right thing to do."<BR/><BR/>I won't then, but I will tell you that a great many people act differently when the boss is around then when the boss isn't around. God wants to know who is willing to follow him by faith and not by us seeing that He is looking over our shoulder. he could leave a note under your pillow at night but the Easter bunny leaves candy, Santa leaves gifts, the Tooth fairy leaves money, and the flying spaghetti monster leaves basil leafs(hey, it could happen). Tell me who in our age of enlightenment would buy the note under the pillow any more than the other things that mysteriously appear in the night;)?<BR/><BR/>The biggest hurdle to clear IMO is the people in a church. If I could figure out how to get people in my church to all behave exactly as we preach, wouldn't that open some eyes? That is a big complaint here right? You don't see anything special from the people in any one religion. If you did I could have you all converted tomorrow;)<BR/><BR/>"Hey, look at me! I'm a Christian! But those other people aren't true Christians because they don't believe the same way I do."<BR/><BR/>I may actually hate this comment more than you. I think it is extremely arrogant. <BR/>I had a longer answer that went to the little blog in the sky apparently. That's OK thoughRichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-44099505053455398162007-07-18T07:11:00.000-04:002007-07-18T07:11:00.000-04:00Hi Rich,We are to do the work in finding out what ...Hi Rich,<BR/><B><I>We are to do the work in finding out what God wants, the communication from Him is there, in scripture. This is where the HS comes into play in verifying to us when we are reading or hearing gospel truth.</B></I><BR/>But the HS doesn't verify does it? If it does how do you account for all the wrong interpretations? Is there a right one? Are people ignoring it or missing it? Do they feel guilty about ignoring something theological that doesn't make a difference in daily life anyway? They still buy it, even if its wrong, but have not really put any thought into it. They evidently don't feel 'convicted' that they are missing the point. If people are mucking it up, then what a crappy system it is. There is no standard, you can't be sure of anything. And I refuse to believe, in principle, that a god that is supposed to be the most superior intellect in the universe would do that. Would you do that if you were god?<BR/><BR/>If I were god, I'd set up a method whereby people know in no uncertain terms what the right interpretation is, and that if they don't agree then they are wrong, and give them a little note on their pillow when they get up in the morning reminding them that I love them and do the right thing. It wouldn't be any sweat for me if I was omnipotent and spanned the ages. <BR/><BR/>And please don't tell me it would take away our free will because it wouldn't in the same way that it doesn't take away my free will to see someone that needs help getting a door open and i make the decision to do it because it is the right thing to do.<BR/><BR/>And since people aren't afraid of going to hell if they marginally following gods word, then the threat of punishment is of no consequence. As long as I say I have accepted jesus, which is really not hard to do, and go to church on easter and 'be a good person' and don't contemplate the bible too much I've got a seat in heaven.<BR/><BR/>"Hey, look at me! I'm a Christian! But those other people aren't true Christians because they don't believe the same way I do."<BR/><BR/>Now I know this is an exaggeration, but it does apply to most to at least a small degree.<BR/><BR/>In my past churches, they always said that hypocrites belong in church, and boy is that ironic.<BR/><BR/>The logic breaks down in so many ways once you start to analyze it its incredible. Its eye opening.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-33155552116411050052007-07-18T06:06:00.000-04:002007-07-18T06:06:00.000-04:00I see except the difference we have is that I beli...I see except the difference we have is that I believe the fault lies with humans and you believe it to be on the Holy Spirit. Which is again where we differ in your next paragraph, I put the fault in us. If we look for the communication between you and I to be similar to the communication between me and God we will not be understanding the relationship to look for with God. We are to do the work in finding out what God wants, the communication from Him is there, in scripture. This is where the HS comes into play in verifying to us when we are reading or hearing gospel truth.<BR/><BR/>"Are you telling me you don't always follow Gods word? I bet you would if you really thought something was going to happen. I bet if really believed in it you really would do what jesus did, or you'd be willfully disobeying god and playing your chances as to how seriously you were going to be punished. And to play with a god like that seems to be a foolish thing to do."<BR/>This response of yours is the big problem with people. We justify our actions instead of taking responsibility and changing our ways. And this is off topic so I hope this doesn't take off, but I wanted to mention that this is what I believe the anguish and suffering will be in the afterlife. People coming to a realization that they failed to do what they knew was right to do. We will beat ourselves up for a long time about not doing what should be easy, keeping the commandments.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62856476840367070162007-07-18T05:23:00.000-04:002007-07-18T05:23:00.000-04:00Hi Rich,This point.That the Holy Spirit is unrelia...Hi Rich,<BR/>This point.<BR/>That the Holy Spirit is unreliable at helping to give guidance on scripture.<BR/>Since you challenge the premise, it doesn't mean anything to you, but to others who don't it should be a problem. <BR/><BR/>You are also helping with the other point I'm making, generally, is that if god wants a relationship, he should communicate clearly and consistently in a way that is unmistakable. This would eliminate the uncertainty, ambiguity and denominations. We could all get on the same page and apostates like me might get a warm fuzzy again. This is sound principle that should extend to God, in fact I will argue that it should extend from god if he set the laws of the universe in place including logic and inference. I'm going to continue this line of thought in some more 'holy spirit' posts. <BR/><BR/>There is so much to challenge that it is a big subject. This post turned out longer than I wanted, but I couldn't figure how to make the argument coherent any other way. That is why I did a "part 2" the next day, continuing the argument but adding the persuasion part.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69252330778137838912007-07-18T04:55:00.000-04:002007-07-18T04:55:00.000-04:00Hi Lee, We are in agreement then with the forcin...Hi Lee,<BR/> We are in agreement then with the forcing part it sounds like. I would only add that a stubborn person would also be one to have a hard time following guidance.<BR/><BR/>I see what your contradiction point is now and it makes more sense. while it make contradict with some traditions, maybe it is a more accurate depiction of the relationship between us and the Holy Spirit?<BR/><BR/>I don't think the sun is a bad analogy because it actually fits right into your "why it isn't" comment. Once you know what you are feeling it is unmistakable but we never loose our ability to choose between obedience and disobedience, as in we are not forced or compelled to follow the guidance we are given.<BR/><BR/>"What tradition are you? I'll bet I know. ;-)<BR/>You are helping to illustrate my point."<BR/>Hey I'm never afraid to help out a little when I can:) which point by the way?Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85547299487358712282007-07-18T02:47:00.000-04:002007-07-18T02:47:00.000-04:00Hi akikiwibear,thanks for the compliment. But by ...Hi akikiwibear,<BR/>thanks for the compliment. <BR/><BR/>But by your principle you have showen the bible to be flawed. Let me explain.<BR/><BR/>"Wow what a Bible, I can’t imagine encountering an atheist who has read it and still doesn't believe. But wait some did and do, therefore the Bible must be flawed. Perhaps that excellent semantic construct is no more than finely crafted cockamamie."<BR/><BR/>As for the rest of your comment I don't understand it. Let me explain, I am an ex-born again baptist fundamentalist inerrentist aplogist evangelist etc.<BR/>I believed in the Trinity which is God, jesus and Holy Spirit. Sing along with me...<BR/>"God in three persons, blessed trinity!"<BR/>There are some claims about the holy spirit that I feel are falsifiable, so that is what I set out to do. Since the Holy Spirit is one in the trinity, If I can show some claims about it are falsifiable then that weakens the claims about the Holy Spirit and therefore god.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7034786374286721822007-07-18T01:29:00.000-04:002007-07-18T01:29:00.000-04:00Wow what an argument, I can’t imagine encountering...Wow what an argument, I can’t imagine encountering a Christian who has read it and still believes. But wait some did and do, therefore the argument must be flawed. Perhaps your excellent semantic construct is no more than finely crafted cockamamie. <BR/><BR/>Atheists do not believe in God and so by your linkage in the HS either. Atheists do not have to prove there is no God and so by your linkage the HS either … so what are you trying to do? If not an atheist why try debunking Christianity, or do you adhere to another religion? <BR/>Perhaps there is a need to establish that there is a basis to atheism other than being unconvinced that there is a God?akakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14225606367620592792007-07-17T23:57:00.000-04:002007-07-17T23:57:00.000-04:00Hi Christian, Oh, you can detect it, and unless...Hi Christian,<BR/> <B><I>Oh, you can detect it, and unless you are severly depressed, psychotic or just chronically cynical, you will detect it just about every day. </B></I><BR/><BR/> Maybe you didn't know, but I used to be one of those model christians, been there done that, I couldn't tell the difference in the guidance of the Holy<BR/> Spirit and I was dubious of people that said they could. I had a friend that followed the guidance of the holy spirit right into russia and to his death. That was a shocker. I had a friend that had a wife that talked to herself all the time, mumbled gibberish, but she was 'speaking in tongues'. What she was, was mentally ill and needing qualified help. But because we all bought into this Holy Spirit crap, we had less than successful outcomes. Would you say that I was "severly depressed, psychotic or just chronically cynical" even though you didn't know me? That would be a trick!<BR/><BR/> <B><I>When you allow yourself to open up your mind to the possibilities (should be easy for all you 'free thinkers') then you find that you will be able to recognize the presence of God at almost any time and place. No matter how difficult the circumstances. And this presence is always joyful, comforting and inspiring. </B></I><BR/>what you are describing here is not uniquely christian. I can say that about myself right now. I get inspired all the time. I write thoughtful articles all the time, I write songs, i think up funny things to say. I'm just as creative now as I was before, its just that now I don't do stuff that praises god. So what? I have friends of other religious persuasions that are just as convinced as you. Some god you got there.<BR/><BR/> <B><I>I am also an apostate even though my faith in God has never been stronger. </B></I><BR/>I think you may be confused about the meaning of 'apostate'. what you wrote above is a contradiction if answers.com is right.<BR/> a·pos·tate (ə-pŏs'tāt', -tĭt) pronunciation<BR/> n.<BR/><BR/> One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46140621855150085482007-07-17T23:43:00.000-04:002007-07-17T23:43:00.000-04:00hi rich,I am not arguing that holy spirit should f...hi rich,<BR/>I am not arguing that holy spirit should force you to do anything. I am arguing that if you were sure you were getting guidance from the holy spirit, you would follow it since I assume only a mentally challenged individual would not, there would be consistency across the board, and christainity would have a larger share than 30% of the worlds population since it would obviously be correct. Think about it.<BR/><BR/><B><I>I missed the contradiction? </B></I><BR/>The contradiction is that if you don't know if you are following gods will or not because you can't distinguish from satan or self, or if you think you know what the right thing to do is and convince yourself it is really just your self-talk, then you may be willfully disregarding the holy spirit or you may be disregarding the spirit an not know it. I probably took what you said too literally and should have given you the benefit of the doubt. Your statement as displayed above "...you receive the opportunity to have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion as long as you remain worthy, as in if you are willfully sinning you have no companionship." does contain a contradiction where 'companionship' is concerned according to some 'traditions'.<BR/><BR/><B><I>P3a. of yours is not really true. The Holy Spirit itself doesn't live inside you. But his influence can be felt by all. </B></I><BR/><A HREF="http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/hs/hs_08.htm" REL="nofollow">these people are just one 'tradition' in many that think it does.</A> What tradition are you? I'll bet I know. ;-)<BR/>You are helping to illustrate my point.<BR/><BR/><B><I>Much the same way the sun doesn't reside inside you but you feel it. Which then makes P6 at the not correct because the Holy Spirit doesn't need to reside in a Christian to inform of the truth.</B></I><BR/>That's a bad analogy. The sun gives you an obvious feeling of warmth. A flame burns your hand, a fly tickles your skin, these are all unmistakable since you know where they come from and generally if you understand the context of your environment you can make a reasoned inference what they are. <BR/><BR/><B><I>It's not what you might expect from god but it is exactly what I would expect from fallible Humans. It's not trying to minimize God but showing that we as humans don't step up to the task.</B></I><BR/>here again you are minimizing your god into impotence. We as humans expect humans to communicate effectively, and a human pressed to do so and properly motivated will accomodate. The business world and school (for just two examples) depend on this for success. You don't expect god to communicate effectively? That is a case of special pleading that I find ridiculous since of all the entities in the universe, a god that wants a relationship with its creation should communicate effectively. Are you telling me you don't always follow Gods word? I bet you would if you really thought something was going to happen. I bet if really believed in it you really would do what jesus did, or you'd be willfully disobeying god and playing your chances as to how seriously you were going to be punished. And to play with a god like that seems to be a foolish thing to do.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57887183930351553772007-07-17T12:11:00.000-04:002007-07-17T12:11:00.000-04:00How can you not know if you are experiencing Gods ...<I>How can you not know if you are experiencing Gods spirit? If you can't detect it, then you can't know if you are experiencing it.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh, you can detect it, and unless you are severly depressed, psychotic or just chronically cynical, you will detect it just about every day. It is easy to deny these experiences or even arrogantly dismiss them as just the end result of a combination of diet, hormones and weather.<BR/><BR/>When you allow yourself to open up your mind to the possibilities (should be easy for all you 'free thinkers') then you find that you will be able to recognize the presence of God at almost any time and place. No matter how difficult the circumstances. And this presence is always joyful, comforting and inspiring. You may think this is delusional whereas you are being exceptionally rational. I'll take a second helping of delusional, then.<BR/><BR/>I am also an apostate even though my faith in God has never been stronger. Atheists haven't cornered the market on apostasy - it's not even a bad word to some of us. I am always curious as to how much some of you folks are actually rejectin God or are you really (usually justifiably) protesting the failures of religion and the religious.Christian Beyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694448485953779168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38174606993918907532007-07-17T05:31:00.000-04:002007-07-17T05:31:00.000-04:00Leave for a couple of days and look what happens!f...Leave for a couple of days and look what happens!<BR/><BR/>first John,<BR/>"The fact that you seem to require that I prove my case means you must explain away the evidence. The evidence is not on your side here."<BR/><BR/>So then again I am still trying to clarify you position here. I thought the way you wrote that post, you were implying that not following the Holy Ghost could not be mans fault, whether that be never or not probable. I'm not asking you to prove any case.<BR/><BR/>Lee,<BR/>After catching up on the discussion here I still have to back track a day or two.<BR/>"What this means is that you receive the opportunity to have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion as long as you remain worthy, as in if you are willfully sinning you have no companionship.<BR/>this appears to be a contradiction."<BR/>I missed the contradiction? God did know this would be the case, as in we would not always follow his word. That is what repentance is for. This doesn't diminish God, except maybe in you eyes, but rests the blame where it should be, on us. The Holy Ghost is not a being who asserts his will on us, but gives guidance to those who seek it. I think you misunderstand where Jennifer(I think she is saying the same thing) and I rest on this subject.<BR/><BR/>P3a. of yours is not really true. The Holy Spirit itself doesn't live inside you. But his influence can be felt by all. Much the same way the sun doesn't reside inside you but you feel it. Which then makes P6 at the not correct because the Holy Spirit doesn't need to reside in a Christian to inform of the truth.<BR/><BR/>"So I guess in any case we wind up with a confused bunch of interpretations. Its like god has a bad connection and we are only getting bits and pieces and we don't have anyway to make sure we are putting it all together correctly.<BR/>Not what you'd expect from an 'awesome' god.<BR/>I say that are joining Jennifer and Richdurrant in minimizing your god into impotence."<BR/>It's not what you might expect from god but it is exactly what I would expect from fallible Humans. It's not trying to minimize God but showing that we as humans don't step up to the task.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39094656215215496932007-07-17T03:42:00.000-04:002007-07-17T03:42:00.000-04:00Hi Christian,It must be experienced. As I said bef...Hi Christian,<BR/><B><I>It must be experienced. As I said before, one may experience God's spirit even though he may not recognize it as such.</B></I><BR/>How can you not know if you are experiencing Gods spirit? If you can't detect it, then you can't know if you are experiencing it. <BR/>This is just meaningless Rhetoric. And I'll add you to the list of Christians that are defending God by Diminishing him or it or whatever.<BR/><BR/><B><I>God, on the other hand, uses man as a means of conveying his truths. It is not always successful because we are allowed to err.</B></I><BR/>So he can't get it right in the bible, he can't get it right through people and you can't tell when you experience him, this sounds like NON-SENSE. <BR/>And Christians wonder why people like me become apostates? <BR/><BR/>Talking about a moving goalpost. Would you like to defend god as being so powerful he can be a contradiction or a paradox too? you might as well, you are most of the way there. If you do that you are safe. You can never be wrong because whatever you think up you can use. That would be a real conversation stopper.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89763308822764401122007-07-16T14:45:00.000-04:002007-07-16T14:45:00.000-04:00tim,sorry for the delayed response:denominations: ...tim,<BR/>sorry for the delayed response:<BR/><BR/>denominations: I think our understanding of the word "one" you referenced is different. I believe that oneness is referring to being apart of the church "body" and being saved in Christ, not everyone thinking/believing the exact same thing. Since most of these doctrines have minor variances of biblical interpretations and do not directly impact the base belief of "being saved through Christ", I choose not to be bothered by them. Of course I understand that there are those who's doctrine is wildly different...but you know what, I just can't be bothered by this. And the reason is my next point....<BR/><BR/>personal relationship: I believe that the bible is one of the most mysterious and thought provoiking books ever written. In that much of its message is not made to be immediatly obvious, so that the reader is challenged to "dig deeper" for the truth to be revealed. Now I understand that to some here that might sound like a convienient excuse, but I persoanally believe this to be a beautiful attribute of the bible, which I enjoy. <BR/>Having said that, I do believe there are numerous examples in the OT of men and women who enjoyed close "fellowship" with God. This is shown through dialouge and interaction with Him (Moses, Abraham, the prophets, David, etc). Jesus (being God Himself) displayed very intimate relationships here on earth, and through Him we have the Holy Spirit who enables ALL of us to enjoy a close intimacy with God.<BR/><BR/>tim, I find it interesting that many of your arguements are based on the actions of churches and/or individuals (both past and present) and their respresentation of the church. I won't argue for a second how shameful much of this behavior is/was, but it has never influenced my understanding/acceptance of the truth. Because for me, it comes from only one source: the bible. Why would I base my belief system on the actions of other people (and yes: I do believe that the people who wrote the bible were divinely influenced...[open interpretation])? However, I do study and respect all of these human examples (both good and bad), and apply whatever "lessons learned" gleaned.<BR/><BR/>thanks for your insightful response. I appreciate the open dialogue.lowendactionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15509676520378562142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54668677895240354632007-07-16T11:27:00.000-04:002007-07-16T11:27:00.000-04:00"since the premise of guindance from the Holy Spir...<B> "since the premise of guindance from the Holy Spirit depends on the truth the divine inspiration in the bible."</B><BR/><BR/>No, the premise depends upon experience that comes from faith. The apostles new little of the holy spirit until pentecost, even though Jesus told them about it.<BR/><BR/>Faith is not created by accepting testimony from either scriptures or other people. It must be experienced. As I said before, one may experience God's spirit even though he may not recognize it as such.<BR/><BR/><B>"So I guess in any case we wind up with a confused bunch of interpretations....Not what you'd expect from an 'awesome' god."<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Exactly. I do not hold to the view that scripture, although inspired by those who have experienced the spiritual, is inerrent of infallible. Man is fallible and prone to excess so there can be mistakes made in translation as well as interpretation. God, on the other hand, uses man as a means of conveying his truths. It is not always successful because we are allowed to err. (I don't want to open up that can of worms right now, but suffice it to say that it is essential that we be permitted to make mistakes.)Christian Beyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694448485953779168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-73016973729046102542007-07-16T06:49:00.000-04:002007-07-16T06:49:00.000-04:00Hi Christian,I feel like you're helping my argumen...Hi Christian,<BR/>I feel like you're helping my argument. If what you say is true then I don't see how anyone can say they know anything about scripture, even the things that are explicitly stated. According to what I understand you to say is that <BR/><B><I>But the elaborate 'concrete' definition of something that is fluid,dynamic and naturally imperceptible was set down by men, at times by very selective groups of men with very specific agendas.....It must be read contextually (meaning we must be better versed in the Jewish mores, traditions and customs of that era) as well as holistically, with every part complementing the whole, not standing alone....A rigid, excessively literal and dogmatic reading of scriptures usually ends with this type of confusion.</B></I><BR/>If what you say is true, you can't even trust how much divine inspiration went into the Bible and you can't trust how much guidance you're getting (if any) from the Holy Spirit, since the premise of guindance from the Holy Spirit depends on the truth the divine inspiration in the bible.<BR/><BR/>So I guess in any case we wind up with a confused bunch of interpretations. Its like god has a bad connection and we are only getting bits and pieces and we don't have anyway to make sure we are putting it all together correctly.<BR/>Not what you'd expect from an 'awesome' god.<BR/>I say that are joining Jennifer and Richdurrant in minimizing your god into impotence.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62260832728103412022007-07-16T00:06:00.000-04:002007-07-16T00:06:00.000-04:00No,Lee, the premise is not all man made. But the e...No,Lee, the premise is not all man made. But the elaborate 'concrete' definition of something that is fluid,dynamic and naturally imperceptible was set down by men, at times by very selective groups of men with very specific agendas. <BR/><BR/>Of course having the spirit of God within you (and that, again, is not a factual statement but a metaphorical one - one could just as easily say "in harmony" or "in tune with the spirit") would assist in biblical revelation. But having God's spirit in your heart would assist in ALL revelation. <BR/><BR/>God does not reveal himself solely, or even primarily through scriptures. It's just one way (albeit one of the best ways) to experience God.<BR/><BR/>By proof texting the Bible, you (as well as the specific Christians and their tenets that you hold in question)may be able to support this specific definition of the Holy Spirit. But the bible was never meant to be an owners manual, curriculum text book or legal document. It must be read contextually (meaning we must be better versed in the Jewish mores, traditions and customs of that era) as well as holistically, with every part complementing the whole, not standing alone. <BR/><BR/>A rigid, excessively literal and dogmatic reading of scriptures usually ends with this type of confusion.King Otthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11719101519748741966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90926108602569075402007-07-15T23:05:00.000-04:002007-07-15T23:05:00.000-04:00Hi Christian,What everyone is arguing over is how ...Hi Christian,<BR/><B><I>What everyone is arguing over is how Church doctrine and dogma is read, or even if doctrine and dogma are relevant or correct. For instance, how does one define the word "Christian".</B></I><BR/>so you challenge the whole premise of the holy spirit as it is laid out in scripture? Its all man made? The definition of "Christian" as I've seen it comes from the bible and it says anyone that accepts christ will get the spirit indwelling and be a christian. The spirit is supposed to give guidance about gods word. <BR/><BR/>Is this new to you? Or am I in one of the grey areas that is supposed to be made clear by the spirit but hasn't?<BR/><BR/>I can back all those premises up with scripture, but I chose not to since the article was so long and I thought they wouldn't be seriously challenged.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.com