tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post742441681842815580..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: The Nature of our Arguments and the Christian WorldviewUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49721689519704583852008-02-07T10:51:00.000-05:002008-02-07T10:51:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Martin Gamblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995416634326506884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39884098672450402852008-02-06T16:06:00.000-05:002008-02-06T16:06:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Martin Gamblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995416634326506884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40351767586608106092007-11-12T20:48:00.000-05:002007-11-12T20:48:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Martin Gamblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995416634326506884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11338940466098416402007-11-12T18:44:00.000-05:002007-11-12T18:44:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Martin Gamblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995416634326506884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61245830004908350982007-11-07T16:22:00.000-05:002007-11-07T16:22:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Karl Bettshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01050597312982483052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47534680646274887172007-11-06T19:18:00.000-05:002007-11-06T19:18:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Martin Gamblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995416634326506884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71239883250367289452007-11-06T10:38:00.000-05:002007-11-06T10:38:00.000-05:00The concepts are quite different. One is a shame ...The concepts are quite different. One is a shame concept; the other is a physical immolation concept. Your equating the two is similar to saying the crucifixtion was not really different from being insulted; both are punishments, after all.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62706458740751468012007-11-02T18:43:00.000-04:002007-11-02T18:43:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Martin Gamblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995416634326506884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85781524801745318682007-11-02T15:54:00.000-04:002007-11-02T15:54:00.000-04:00Although, IMHO, the distinction between eternal re...<I>Although, IMHO, the distinction between eternal reproach and eternal torment is a trifle academic.</I><BR/><BR/>The Hebrew word used for reproach is the same one used for abhorrance or aversion or contempt; it means that the godly will turn from them. VERY different from eternal unquenchable fire. Jesus' imagery of the torture of souls tracks the imagery used in Isaiah 66:24, which refers to the eternal desecration of the <B>corpses</B> of the enemies of God, and talks of unquenching fire and undying worms...and eternal reproach. Even in the OT, the ideas were separate and used separate vocabulary.<BR/><BR/>metaphyzxx: <I>I (for lack of a better word)'test' my God for results.</I><BR/><BR/>Ok, fair enough. You test your God, then measure the results of that test to determine what God wants. Seems reasonable to me.<BR/><BR/>How do you "test" your God? How do you measure the results?Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14941451990009172322007-11-02T15:43:00.000-04:002007-11-02T15:43:00.000-04:00Sorry, metaphyzxx, I couldn't let this go by.I agr...Sorry, metaphyzxx, I couldn't let this go by.<BR/><BR/><I>I agree wholeheartedly that unless you actually KNOW god, then his ways seem whimsical...</I><BR/><BR/>Hmmm... "whimsical" is perhaps not the adjective that comes most readily to mind for what God commanded the Israelites to do in 1 Samuel 15... but I guess I just have no sense of "whimsy".zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-5736366257427861662007-11-02T15:10:00.000-04:002007-11-02T15:10:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Martin Gamblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995416634326506884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90998100383269213462007-11-02T12:54:00.000-04:002007-11-02T12:54:00.000-04:00Thranil: Again, you're not answering the actual q...Thranil: Again, you're not answering the actual question. I said "Which person is to be more admired", not "Which actions"... which in the end is the same question you asked.<BR/><BR/>Shygetz: It's kind of funny, because, from my perspective, we're both proving each other's point. I agree wholeheartedly that unless you actually KNOW god, then his ways seem whimsical, however if you actually DO know him, it's a little more predictable how he'd react.<BR/><BR/>As for the 'experience', know this, I don't associate god with any emotional sensation, or any "feeling" in general. I (for lack of a better word)'test' my God for results. My thing was, I was willing to admit, when I started my own search, that I didn't know one way or the other, but the Burden of Proof was in God's corner.<BR/><BR/>t.a.g.: I can't argue, seeing as I was an X-tian for a while, then agnostic, then tried my hands at a few other religionsmetaphyzxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02702037868258045003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-64813452108978031802007-11-02T10:16:00.000-04:002007-11-02T10:16:00.000-04:00Man, I can't keep up with you guys. Anyway, quotin...Man, I can't keep up with you guys. Anyway, quoting from way up there...<BR/><BR/>GordonBlood wrote:<BR/>"...were well aware of the arguments. The problem of evil, the hiddenness of God, the bible not being completely inerrant. And guess what? Were still Christians."<BR/><BR/>Not everybody stays Christian forever. Most atheists/agnostics I encounter either online or in person have deconverted from some form of Christianity. Many people are not familiar with the arguments John makes, and it isn't true that you can't change peoples' minds.<BR/><BR/>On a side note, I am personally curious what percentage of people are passionate about these topics. I love discussing religion, philosophy and other hard questions about our existence. But most people I know in my life, whether religious or not are pretty apathetic about these things.<BR/><BR/>metaphyzxx wrote:<BR/>"I hold that you live your life in the manner you do, concious of the fact that you don't believe in God, and therefore are unconcerned with his opinion of your lifestyle."<BR/><BR/>I guess so, I just think it's a strange way of looking at things. In my daily life going about my business I don't feel conscious of the fact of my disbelief. It's just not in my mind. I'm not constantly thinking at every point of the day "There is no God, therefore I choose to do this action." I have heard about some believers who do go about their days like that, even with trivial things saying to themselves in their minds "God, please let there be a parking space..." etc. all day long. Think about how you live your daily life. Are you conscious of the fact that you don't believe in Vishnu? I suspect that the issue is almost never in your mind at all. It's the same for me and Yahweh.<BR/><BR/>metaphyzxx wrote:<BR/>"I do believe that, in your innermost heart, what I'd classify as your spirit, you do in fact believe that there is no God. It's not just something you've convinced yourself of. it's not just an assent to something someone else told you, but a believe you've come to within yourself, and it's the rock upon which you make all of your arguments."<BR/><BR/>Again, I suppose that is true in some sense, but I would never describe my non-belief as a "rock upon which I make all my arguments". Again I should ask if your disbelief of Vishnu is such a foundation for all your arguments? The only thing I would say is a "rock" for me is the common-sense use of logic and evidence based reason.that atheist guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16091786187162784705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11518044283327489692007-11-02T09:08:00.000-04:002007-11-02T09:08:00.000-04:00metaphyzxx:I did answer your question. My answer i...metaphyzxx:<BR/><BR/>I did answer your question. My answer is that your question is poor an not answerable in a multiple choice fashion in its current form. If you wish to rephrase the question (and I offered two possible ways to do so), then I will be happy to answer in a multiple-choice fashion.<BR/><BR/>Listen, I can put forth poor questions all day. How about only being able to answer yes/no with "Have you stopped molesting children yet?" Do you get my point?Thranilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17150576725951400781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84551617839857650912007-11-02T08:58:00.000-04:002007-11-02T08:58:00.000-04:00martin, perhaps I wrote unclearly. I do not claim...martin, perhaps I wrote unclearly. I do not claim that Jesus was the first Jew to have thought of eternal torment for unbelievers. I'll go ahead and say it: I don't think Jesus conveyed a single truly original thought, but combined various thoughts that had previously been present in various other cultures. But Jesus' teachings are the first time that eternal torment became a part of the sacred writings in the Abrahamaic tradition. The closest in the OT is Daniel 12:2, which only says that the most evil will be doomed to everlasting reproaches and separation from God, not torture. Jewish tradition has all sorts of conflicting beliefs about judgement and afterlife, from annihiliation of evil souls to reincarnation to torment of limited periods to everlasting torment, but everlasting torment was never in the OT.<BR/><BR/>metaphyzxx, you make my point. You only know your mother's mind because she told you. You don't get it by ESP or telepathy or anything else; you get it because you can see her, hear her, and tell what makes her happy and what makes her sad. Yet you can't do any of those things with God.<BR/><BR/>If we examine what we know of the world, we will find that the only creatures that we can communicate with without using our senses are imaginary ones in our head--if you disagree, provide a counterexample. You communicate with God without using your senses; you just "know" what makes Him happy without ever seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, or smelling Him, just like my daughter "knows" what the boogeyman likes and doesn't like. Sure, the boogeyman is a real <B>experience</B> to her and impacts her in real ways, but it certainly isn't real in any metaphysical sense.<BR/><BR/>The only way out of this conundrum is to assert by fiat that God <B>has</B> interacted in a sensual way with you. Many Christians claim He did this through sacred writings, but that ties you to the writings as the only way of knowing God's real character and having to justify the God-authorship of the writings. Others claim visions or actual voices talking to them, also which can be challenged if they are not evidenced (which they never are).<BR/><BR/>I'm sure you have a real <B>experience</B> of God, but I'm not convinced that God is the real, metaphysical cause of your experience. Perhaps you shouldn't be so sure, either.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12133883247750039542007-11-02T07:36:00.000-04:002007-11-02T07:36:00.000-04:00Joseph:Tens of thousands? Hyperbole much? I'll giv...Joseph:<BR/>Tens of thousands? Hyperbole much? I'll give you dozens, but thousands?<BR/><BR/>And I'll submit that the exact opposite is the reason behind most of the denominations to begin with. People getting TOLD what the Bible has to say instead of learning for themselves. For the most part, there are only a few valid divisions, ie: Catholic vs. Protestant, Armenian vs. Calvinist. Others are just based on human interpretation of something that's said, but not expounded on in the Bible, which really should relegate the matter to a minor issue (are tongues for today, baptism by immersion or sprinkling).metaphyzxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02702037868258045003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10802684959086718612007-11-02T07:34:00.000-04:002007-11-02T07:34:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.metaphyzxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02702037868258045003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47500088078131208352007-11-02T07:27:00.000-04:002007-11-02T07:27:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.metaphyzxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02702037868258045003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-51537278848213461932007-11-02T07:26:00.000-04:002007-11-02T07:26:00.000-04:00Thranil: You could a) answer the question orb) ans...Thranil: <BR/>You could <BR/>a) answer the question<BR/> or<BR/>b) answer the questionmetaphyzxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02702037868258045003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86605294838167572952007-11-01T18:03:00.000-04:002007-11-01T18:03:00.000-04:00I dont even know where to begin... John will prob...I dont even know where to begin... John will probly throw a fit but il say it anyways. John, I dont know about other people, but the reason I and many others are not going to buy your book is that were well aware of the arguments. The problem of evil, the hiddenness of God, the bible not being completely inerrant. And guess what? Were still Christians. You arent the first person to write an anti-Christian manifesto, in fact its been going on for nearly 2000 years (im thinking of writings like Celsus). While I appreciate your call for all us Christians to buy your book as an effective money-making ploy, lampooning us as being afraid or whatever else is simply nonsense which isnt going to work in the real world, especially when, again, theres plenty of anti-Christian stuff out there.GordonBloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426901390201595020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-68972969902977082112007-11-01T16:24:00.001-04:002007-11-01T16:24:00.001-04:00Metaphyzxx: I suspect that the reason we have tens...Metaphyzxx: I suspect that the reason we have tens of thousands of Christian denominations today is because people ARE reading the Bible themselves and coming away with conflicting ideas.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17334561897229228792007-11-01T16:24:00.000-04:002007-11-01T16:24:00.000-04:00Apples to oranges.You could do: 1) to glorify god ...Apples to oranges.<BR/><BR/>You could do: 1) to glorify god and 2) to do it 'just because'<BR/><BR/>or <BR/><BR/>1) To show up the unbeliever or 2) to show up the believerThranilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17150576725951400781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-51917664136937644802007-11-01T16:16:00.001-04:002007-11-01T16:16:00.001-04:00Now I present the exact same scenario to YOU:Quest...Now I present the exact same scenario to YOU:<BR/><BR/>Question for you: Who is the person to be more admired?<BR/><BR/>1) Someone who believes in your god, and therefore does a lot of good things in the world (feed the hungry, aid the sick, etc etc) because of what your god has commanded... And discloses his motives so that God gets credit for the good deed he's done<BR/><BR/>or<BR/><BR/>2) Someone who does not believe in your god (or any gods for that matter) who does good things (examples listed above) simply because they want to help people... And discloses his motives to try to cast the Believer in as bad a light as possible?metaphyzxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02702037868258045003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-35970455232416175842007-11-01T16:16:00.000-04:002007-11-01T16:16:00.000-04:00metaphyzxxBTW - You seem to fall into the first ca...metaphyzxx<BR/><BR/>BTW - You seem to fall into the first category of believer that I mentioned in my first post. Just thought I'd point that out.Thranilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17150576725951400781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37812267449537926462007-11-01T16:13:00.000-04:002007-11-01T16:13:00.000-04:00Thranil: Actually, I have tested several of them. ...Thranil: Actually, I have tested several of them. In the end, I came to my own conclusions about God. I call myself a christian, not because I chose to be a christian, but the conclusions of what I've discovered of God are most closely matched in Christianity.<BR/><BR/>And as to the "cop out", it's not. Realize that you said someone that believes in 'MY' God. A person that believes in "MY" God (example: myself) is specifically mandated NOT do do the good works for purpose of admiration, as the admiration would become it's own reward. You are the one that added the qualifier: <BR/> "so in essence, doing whatever good they are doing in order to gain your god's approval (and possibly avoid his wrath).<BR/><BR/>The person that believes in 'MY' God (example: myself) basically doing the SAME good deed out of the SAME motivation that your non-believer in the example given... <BR/><BR/>"simply because they want to help people... without any concern as to whether there is a judge of any sort watching what they are doing.<BR/>"<BR/><BR/>You asked which PERSON is to be more admired... not which motives. Since the same deed got done, and no mention was made to the general disclosure of motives, I judge the individual from what I'd be able to see. <BR/><BR/>If I were to donate $10,000 because I felt God wanted me to do it to a local charity, and you donate $10,000 to the same charity because you wanted them to have $10,000, would they hold either of us in more contempt than the other, or would they say thank you to BOTH of us, and deposit $20K in their account?<BR/><BR/>In the end, as a believer, I say no one can judge another person's motives but God. I can pick nits with the best of them, and better than most.metaphyzxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02702037868258045003noreply@blogger.com