tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post7326155098205756539..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: On God Answering Prayers RetroactivelyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-26334720818969283922009-11-12T22:45:06.846-05:002009-11-12T22:45:06.846-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25529321765360985232009-11-12T15:54:28.488-05:002009-11-12T15:54:28.488-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46427787178995818592009-11-12T15:23:19.257-05:002009-11-12T15:23:19.257-05:00"It reminds me of those poor women who say, &..."It reminds me of those poor women who say, "He beats me because he loves me."<br /><br />This isn't the same at all.<br />God is in a different category than human beings. There's a huge distance between us and God so your analogy fails on many accounts. One of the ways God is different than us is that He's all-knowing and infinite in wisdom and knowledge. So, God sees and knows things that we don't. God, being good and infinite in in wisdom, obviously has good morally justifiable reasons for allowing evil and suffering even if I don't know what His reasons are. I'm learning to trust God even when I don't understand why. Demanding that God explain why is arrogant and untrusting.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17882368505783252552009-11-11T22:17:29.138-05:002009-11-11T22:17:29.138-05:00Andre wrote: "So in your opinion MMM, do you ...Andre wrote: "So in your opinion MMM, do you think God answers the prayer of someone who will end up separated from him anyways?"<br /><br />What would that prayer be exactly? And if it is from someone who holds God in contempt, I don't believe God would bless or promote a prayer that would enable someone to be condemned - He isn't an enabler but He is gracious - two different things. People are allowed a preference otherwise He would be a domineering dictator. <br /><br />You also asked: "What if the demon already knows his fate." I don't think a demon thinks in terms of fate or is thoughtful - it's more like an habitual, compulsive cooperation in constructing the confines of hell.<br /><br />The best to you, Andre,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8299268070520210412009-11-11T19:25:11.094-05:002009-11-11T19:25:11.094-05:00Hi MMM,
What if the demon already knows his fate?...Hi MMM,<br /><br />What if the demon already knows his fate? Or what about a christian who's not sure of their fate or thinks they are, and after death finds themselves "separated" from God, how would you then be able to say "they don't ask to be with Him"? Is it the case that anyone who calls on God to be with him will get their wish? Does it not say in Mathew 7:21, "Not everyone who says Lord Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."? That being the case, I would also think it's safe to say then that not everyone who does the will of the father will enter.<br /><br />So in your opinion MMM, do you think God answers the prayer of someone who will end up separated from him anyways?Ignerant Phoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166860576010836032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61878045459527849312009-11-11T16:53:00.003-05:002009-11-11T16:53:00.003-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62768102484601494902009-11-11T16:31:01.539-05:002009-11-11T16:31:01.539-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-58062430350519668732009-11-11T16:29:33.244-05:002009-11-11T16:29:33.244-05:00Actually, I can't think of any scriptural data...Actually, I can't think of any scriptural data that can definitively settle this issue. This is not a hill worth dying on. Sorry I snapped.C. Andironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850876481256430215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71998961312142683412009-11-11T16:18:57.062-05:002009-11-11T16:18:57.062-05:00I don't get this:
"Grace (common or savi...I don't get this:<br /><br />"Grace (common or saving) is unmerrited favor and God is therefore under no obligation to be merciful to His creation. If God witholds common grace from His creation then He does nothing wrong. Since He does nothing wrong then He remains a good God. Since God is good then He has a morally justifiable reason for allowing all that suffering."<br /><br />It reminds me of those poor women who say, "He beats me because he loves me."<br /><br />Just plain silly.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-36867895106971477632009-11-11T13:45:44.152-05:002009-11-11T13:45:44.152-05:00Mark commented: "I don't understand the r...Mark commented: "I don't understand the relevance of this to the separation issue."<br /><br />Scripturally, a reference to the demonic is associated with separation from the divine.<br /><br />Then Mark wrote: "I don't see the problem with that. You can respect a powerful and dangerous being while not wanting intimacy with it. "<br /><br />Bingo! Exactly my point! The inherent danger of intimacy with God is the death of ego. <br /><br />The best to you Mark!Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-36763260637766985152009-11-11T13:02:10.441-05:002009-11-11T13:02:10.441-05:00C Andiron, the prayers that would be answered retr...C Andiron, the prayers that would be answered retroactively would be the ones God foreknew would be prayed. So you admit God can foreknow prayers and answer them retroactively by changing what we think happened in the past.<br /><br />My challenge is for Christians to start praying for the past, since God cannot foreknow any prayers unless they are prayed. If you are not praying for the past then there is nothing for him to answer retroactively. <br /><br />What difference should it make whether or not someone knows what had happened? Why does this matter to God if he can foreknow prayers?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88332114417246119872009-11-11T12:48:41.325-05:002009-11-11T12:48:41.325-05:00John has missed the point. God does not 'retro...John has missed the point. God does not 'retroactively' answer prayer by modifying the results of an event <i>that has already occurred</i>, but by averting the event itself based on his foreknowledge.<br /><br /><i>Since Allison found out about their father's fate, whatever it was, one hour earlier, does this mean God could not answer Ned's prayer retroactively?</i><br /><br />If God had decided in eternity past to grant Ned's prayer, Allison would never have found out about their father's death, since it would not have occurred. The scenario presented does not apply.<br /><br /><i>What if, as in many unanswered prayer cases, Allison finds that her father was killed? Then what? Should she continue to pray for his safety after learning about his death?</i><br /><br />Alternately, if she prayed and learned of her father's fate, this shows that God had not decided to answer her prayer, so there would be no point.<br /><br />John is redefining what Lewis and Dembski mean by 'retroactive prayer', hence he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. He apparently cannot get his head around the concept of foreknowledge. He seems to be operating with an 'open theist' concept of God who can only react to prayers after they happen and then must monkey with the past after it has occurred.<br /><br />Village Atheist indeed.C. Andironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850876481256430215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4056122110444079772009-11-11T11:44:11.900-05:002009-11-11T11:44:11.900-05:00It's really easy to make claims like 'god ...It's really easy to make claims like 'god retroactively answers prayers'. Does he now? Care to offer some verifiable proof that he answers any prayers, at all, at any point? Oh, I don't know, something small. Heal an amputee perhaps? Any christians, muslims, jews, whatever willing to let me cut their arm off? Of course we'll get some high-power pastor, priest, the pope even, to pray to make it 'miraculously' come back. Oh, I see, it doesn't work like that. Ok, how about a religious AIDS orphan who lost their legs in a landmine explosion and is now starving to death? No? Didn't think so.<br /><br />Santa Claus retroactively answers my letters to him. Just the other day I asked him to not deliver presents to my house, and lo and behold, he didn't bring me any last year.<br /><br />When I pray, I usually also write a letter to Santa to be doubly sure somebody gets the request. They tend to get answered about equally. Santa and jesus work in mysterious ways.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16631099249233386836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-727974451110914442009-11-11T11:15:23.103-05:002009-11-11T11:15:23.103-05:00I find Dembski's idea that God answers prayers...I find Dembski's idea that God answers prayers retroactively to be quite strange. Even more strange is his attempt to use this to explain millions of years of death, decay, and suffering as the result of Adam and Eve's sin. It just seems too far fetched to me. <br /><br />Grace (common or saving) is unmerrited favor and God is therefore under no obligation to be merciful to His creation. If God witholds common grace from His creation then He does nothing wrong. Since He does nothing wrong then He remains a good God. Since God is good then He has a morally justifiable reason for allowing all that suffering.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31204606742692197442009-11-11T10:35:18.259-05:002009-11-11T10:35:18.259-05:00MMM writes:
"About this separation after dea...MMM writes:<br /><br />"About this separation after death issue: When Jesus confronted a demoniac, the demons inside the man believed that Jesus was going to torture them - rather than asking to be with Jesus, their only request of Him was that they not be sent into the abyss."<br /><br />I don't understand the relevance of this to the separation issue. Did these "demons" live as biological people at one time? Otherwise they might have reasons different from our for wanting "separation" from Jesus.<br /><br />"That is the way ppl approach God who do not know Him - they don't ask to be with Him - they ask to be somewhere other than with God."<br /><br />I don't see the problem with that. You can respect a powerful and dangerous being while not wanting intimacy with it. Didn't the rabbi in "Fiddler on the Roof" express this idea by saying, "The lord bless the tsar and keep him -- far away from us!"Mark Plushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03859046131830902921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10280737986961244102009-11-11T02:58:55.606-05:002009-11-11T02:58:55.606-05:00The previous commment is:
"Does God ever ans...The previous commment is:<br /><br />"Does God ever answer the prayer of someone who will be "separated" from him after death?"<br /><br />About this separation after death issue: When Jesus confronted a demoniac, the demons inside the man believed that Jesus was going to torture them - rather than asking to be with Jesus, their only request of Him was that they not be sent into the abyss. That is the way ppl approach God who do not know Him - they don't ask to be with Him - they ask to be somewhere other than with God.<br /><br />I believe that Jesus said that hell was a preference.Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84379609006450292852009-11-10T20:21:08.034-05:002009-11-10T20:21:08.034-05:00Ooh Ooh! I have one too!
God will only answer you...Ooh Ooh! I have one too! <br />God will only answer your prayer, if you pray. And for your prayers not to be answered, you have to pray.<br /><br />Does God ever answer the prayer of someone who will be "separated" from him after death?Ignerant Phoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166860576010836032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7815380535120674052009-11-10T05:42:55.336-05:002009-11-10T05:42:55.336-05:00Can god answer this prayer retroactively?
Only ...Can god answer this prayer retroactively? <br /><br />Only if Allison's dad fell down in the woods and nobody was around to hear it.stamati anagnostouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08933207821787646512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90740198342167277042009-11-09T15:27:07.676-05:002009-11-09T15:27:07.676-05:00openlyatheist wrote: "but to become aligned w...openlyatheist wrote: "but to become aligned with "God's will", meaning to rationalize whatever happens whether they get what they want or not" <br /><br />It seems that in this statement you are perceiving faith in God's will with being demoralized and growing hopeless/apathetic in order to accept a given circumstance - correct me if I have misunderstood.<br /><br />I know it is possible in idolotry to believe in a god that impugns and demoralizes us for approaching him so that we must conform to being hopeless and apathetic but Jesus did not advocate such a relationship. While He acknowledges the existence of idol worship He also offers salvation from such.<br /><br />As far as God answering prayers retroactively, I don't find this desire to "go back" to be consistent with what a progressive, creative God Who offers grace-to-move-forward has promised. It is what it is - you have already claimed to reject God, but which one???Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31441949828076494792009-11-09T13:29:00.184-05:002009-11-09T13:29:00.184-05:00Anyone interested in the psychology of prayer shou...Anyone interested in the psychology of prayer should also study the psychology of addiction. It is a fact that guinea pigs who are punished and rewarded randomly develop addictions faster than those whose results are consistent. By extension, the more unreliable the results of prayer, the greater the lengths theists will go to rationalize the outcome.<br /><br />One can also see this in the new trend of apologists who claim that they don't pray out of selfishness, but to become aligned with "God's will", meaning to rationalize whatever happens whether they get what they want or not. Which only goes to show that they don't really want whatever they prayed for in the first place.<br /><br />In a sense, the only things Christians are really praying for is for God to help them not care about the outcome of prayers.openlyatheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03799132607816184980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81385491683187560152009-11-09T13:17:09.685-05:002009-11-09T13:17:09.685-05:00If God were an "on-demand" deity created...If God were an "on-demand" deity created to appease our every desire, and if our prayer requests were the sole agent of salvation then your "test" is a legitimate tool to debunk idolotry. <br /><br />One thing that your test presumes is that we ought to pray not to die - I forget that you probably believed in a god that taught that death is the ultimate, finite punishment something insurmountable. Jesus did not foster such an attitude.<br /><br />Also, I cannot find where Jesus encourages or rewards cynicism or arrogant demands - these are not a part of learning to trust, so why would He honor such a test?? To do so would only enable one's contempt for the divine and enable idolotry.Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85844605633249001232009-11-09T09:45:01.521-05:002009-11-09T09:45:01.521-05:00Hey, I have one: What if you pray, "Lord, I a...Hey, I have one: What if you pray, "Lord, I ask that you ignore this prayer"? What does god do in response? If he answers it, he ignores it; and if he ignores it, he answers it.Mark Plushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03859046131830902921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29263277447668438342009-11-09T09:08:34.493-05:002009-11-09T09:08:34.493-05:00Ah, but see, there's an observer effect going ...Ah, but see, there's an observer effect going on. As long as you don't know that God hasn't answered your prayer yet you can pray and maybe he'll answer it retroactively. Because clearly if the result you were praying for turns out to be the result that you get, God MUST have changed the past to answer your prayer, right?<br /><br />Christians who subscribe to such silly notions of prayer amuse me - God is a giant slot machine that dispenses free wishes, and as long as they keep pulling that handle (praying) eventually the slot machine will pay out and give them their wish. It reduces the idea of God to just a big unreliable genie, dispensing wishes at semi-random intervals. Or at least they amuse me until their beliefs become harmful and they stop sending their kids to chemo because God is going to cure their cancer if they just have enough faith.<br /><br />On an unrelated note, I don't understand why Ned being in a different time zone would have any impact on this at all. He could be in the same time zone and hear about it an hour later and it would be the same result.Jerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10060430253113856206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22765918185597450072009-11-09T08:57:33.267-05:002009-11-09T08:57:33.267-05:00It seems like anyone who believes something like t...It seems like anyone who believes something like this never reached the stage in his/her infancy where he/she began to recognize that mom or dad didn't actually cease to exist behind their hands.jjmontemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00143589518526329295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-80652261113581971642009-11-08T21:46:27.346-05:002009-11-08T21:46:27.346-05:00Looking at it from a different angle, isn't Al...Looking at it from a different angle, isn't Allison now praying FOR the death of someone else?<br /><br />What is a God to do? "Sorry Phil, I know you and your family thought you had survived the accident, but Allison prayed and all. So now you have to die and I have to bring Bob back. But hey, if someone prays for you after I do that switch than you get to come back and old Dave will have to bite it."<br /><br />Is there any threshold of ridiculousness that cannot be crossed?M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.com