tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post7039111150697959229..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Thank God for the Holocaust!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger154125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-68478644701777117422007-11-10T11:39:00.000-05:002007-11-10T11:39:00.000-05:00No, I don't know why God allowed the Holocaust to ...No, I don't know why God allowed the Holocaust to happen...there is no reason in my human mind that could justify it. I just have to trust God that He had a reason for it and also thank Him from stopping Hitler before he could control the whole world. You just can't look at the bad, you have to look at the good that came from that and the good people who helped stop it.kachow007https://www.blogger.com/profile/11526153768835384741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87024632955817560992007-11-09T09:19:00.000-05:002007-11-09T09:19:00.000-05:00Sweet zombie Jesus, atheists are NOT angry with Go...Sweet zombie Jesus, atheists are NOT angry with God. We are pointing out some of the conclusions that result from believing in an interventionist, benevolent God. I know why I'm not mad at God; same reason I'm not mad at Santa Claus for failing to bring me a pony last year. <BR/><BR/>Why are you <B>not</B> mad at God for allowing the Holocaust? After all, you believe He exists, you believe He loves His people dearly, and you believe He intervenes in human affairs, yet He allowed one of the most heinous crimes to occur. So He must have approved of allowing the Holocaust. Do you praise His benevolence for allowing the Holocaust? Why not?Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14111756089726158142007-11-07T17:17:00.000-05:002007-11-07T17:17:00.000-05:00ok well i still don't understand why you would be ...ok well i still don't understand why you would be thankful for the Holocaust. what justifies that the Holocaust was a good thing.... or does it just give you another reason to be angry with God?kachow007https://www.blogger.com/profile/11526153768835384741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1812371501908146142007-11-06T23:06:00.000-05:002007-11-06T23:06:00.000-05:00Upon reflection, my previous comment (now deleted)...Upon reflection, my previous comment (now deleted) was mean spirited and unnecessary. I apologize to anyone who might have taken offense.billfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03301668796147036144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65818316351900430042007-11-06T21:57:00.000-05:002007-11-06T21:57:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.billfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03301668796147036144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23953770741984470052007-11-06T19:06:00.000-05:002007-11-06T19:06:00.000-05:00Why would you thank God for the Holocaust? I thoug...Why would you thank God for the Holocaust? I thought you didn't believe in God. Isn't that contradicting your beliefs?kachow007https://www.blogger.com/profile/11526153768835384741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-36157868760809994972007-11-06T19:05:00.000-05:002007-11-06T19:05:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.kachow007https://www.blogger.com/profile/11526153768835384741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57257573731574928452007-11-06T11:25:00.000-05:002007-11-06T11:25:00.000-05:00"Atheism" is only a religion if "off" is a televis..."Atheism" is only a religion if "off" is a television channel.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13898408735533395532007-11-06T11:07:00.000-05:002007-11-06T11:07:00.000-05:00bryan said: But, can't atheism be classified as a ...bryan said: <I>But, can't atheism be classified as a religion? Why all this talk about Hitler being religious as proof that he wasn't an atheist?</I><BR/><BR/>Only as much as not collecting stamps can be considered a hobby. Atheists have no religion.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63640341272364353972007-11-06T02:14:00.000-05:002007-11-06T02:14:00.000-05:00I would be interested in what Richard Dawkins woul...<I>I would be interested in what Richard Dawkins would have to say after spending a few months in Haiti and seeing what happens during a weekend long festival of spirits.</I> <BR/><BR/>Not that I can speak for Dawkins, but I can easily imagine what he might say: "This is a good example of the power of the human mind to assimilate memes- in this case, the animistic religions of the African homeland combined with the Catholicism of the European kidnappers- to form a system of beliefs, and practices, that manipulate our fears and hopes".<BR/><BR/><I>I know the mind is powerful, but I believe there is evil beyond the control of the mind.</I><BR/><BR/>And that is precisely what such religions depend upon: the belief in an incarnate evil, and its opposite, incarnate good. Good and evil are such useful ways of looking at the world, any time we are trying to build society, that it's natural to enshrine them as entities outside ourselves. That's one reason we have religions.<BR/><BR/>And as far as being "beyond the control of the mind" goes- what voodoo (for instance) does is most definitely in control of minds: the invocation of deep symbols and primal hopes and fears are all products of minds. Or have you proof that something supernatural is going on? People are easily fooled, especially when they want to be fooled, and religions have played into this, consciously or unconsciously, throughout history.<BR/><BR/>I do hope you're not suggesting that Luther was right about killing witches.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-70980294812533304872007-11-05T16:22:00.000-05:002007-11-05T16:22:00.000-05:00what is more important to me is: how do people who...<I>what is more important to me is: how do people who identify themselves as being religious actually behave, as it affects me and everyone else?</I><BR/><BR/>Having been in a part of the world where witchcraft is practiced, not the "nice" sort of white magic many Wiccans and Pagans say they practice, and I probably shouldn't comment on what I think Luther was saying. I would be interested in what Richard Dawkins would have to say after spending a few months in Haiti and seeing what happens during a weekend long festival of spirits. I know the mind is powerful, but I believe there is evil beyond the control of the mind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77017260087753521832007-11-05T13:42:00.000-05:002007-11-05T13:42:00.000-05:00jennifer asks:If Hitler claimed to be Buddhist and...jennifer asks:<BR/><BR/><I>If Hitler claimed to be Buddhist and to be reaching nirvana by cleansing the world would you have believed him?</I><BR/><BR/>What can it mean to say, I would have believed him, or not believed him? How can I judge what someone claims about their religion? There are obviously many degrees of religious belief, and many different ideas of what it means to be a Buddhist, or a Christian. That is my point: there's no real place to draw a line between "good" Christians and "bad" Christians, or "real" and "fake", or whatever.<BR/><BR/>Tell me this: was Martin Luther a Christian? Is he in Heaven? He said some pretty nasty things about Jews, which are well known. I'll just quote him on witches:<BR/><BR/><I> „daß ein Exempel an ihnen gegeben werden möchte, anderen zum Schrekken. ...<BR/>Mit denen muß man kein Mitleid haben. Ich wollte sie selber verbrennen.“</I><BR/><BR/>"An example should be made of them, to frighten others... One should have no sympathy for them. I wanted to burn them myself."<BR/><BR/><I>„Man töte sie! ... Es ist ein sehr gerechtes Gesetz, daß die Hexen getötet werden; sie richten vielerlei Schaden an. ... Schaust du solche Weiber an, so wirst du finden, daß sie ein teuflisches Gesicht haben. Ich selber habe deren etliche gesehen. Man töte sie nur!“</I><BR/><BR/>"One should kill them! ... It is a very just law, that witches should be killed; they cause many kinds of harm. ... If you look at such women, you will find, that they have a devilish face. I myself have seen many of them. One should only kill them!".<BR/><BR/>You see the problem here. No matter what the "true" essence of Christianity, or any other religion is, the real-world consequences of believing (whatever one conceives that to mean) are all too often terrible.<BR/><BR/>That's why I cannot say whether or not the total effect of religion on society has been, or is now, all things considered, good or bad. While it's interesting to debate what constitutes "true" Christianity (or Islam, or Hinduism...) what is more important to me is: how do people who identify themselves as being religious actually behave, as it affects me and everyone else?zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6352737782218963632007-11-05T11:33:00.000-05:002007-11-05T11:33:00.000-05:00Zilch,If we are to judge worldviews on their fruit...Zilch,<BR/><BR/><I>If we are to judge worldviews on their fruits, then we must consider all their manifestations, and not just single out the saintly as examples of how wonderful they are.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree in part. The word, "Christian" means little Christ. Doesn't it seem that there should be more adherence to Christlikeness if someone is to call themselves a Christian?<BR/>I don't remember where I heard this phrase, but a long time ago someone asked, "If you were tried for your faith, would there be enough evidence to convict you?"<BR/><BR/>Well...I hope so, but this would depend on the criteria being used and I think the list in Galatians is a good place to start. <BR/><BR/>If Hitler claimed to be Buddhist and to be reaching nirvana by cleansing the world would you have believed him?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32936348542139879202007-11-05T04:46:00.000-05:002007-11-05T04:46:00.000-05:00jennifer- you say:Based on the little I CAN see, I...jennifer- you say:<BR/><BR/><I>Based on the little I CAN see, I can confidently say that he [Hitler] was not anything like Jesus and therefore should not be given any credit for being a Christian.</I><BR/><BR/>Back to the old problem: who, then, <I>is</I> a "Christian"? It seems to me fruitless to try and draw lines (this is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy). If we are to judge worldviews on their fruits, then we must consider <I>all</I> their manifestations, and not just single out the saintly as examples of how wonderful they are.<BR/><BR/>Now, I won't claim that this is easy. In fact, as I've said before, and unlike many atheists, I won't presume to judge whether the total effect of religion on humanity has been bad or good, in the balance. Who can say?<BR/><BR/><I>If a person is an atheist there is no specific conduct or expectation required beyond being a decent human being.</I><BR/><BR/>Required by whom? Atheism proper doesn't require any specific conduct at all: it simply means not believing in gods. I would say that <I>society</I> requires and expects <I>everyone</I> to be decent human beings, regardless of what they believe. At least, that's necessary in my conception of an ideal society.<BR/><BR/>Jennifer- I see by your profile that you're in Washington. Do you mean the state? I was born in Seattle, and still have relatives scattered around there. Vienna is a nice place in many ways, but the Pacific Northwest is also special.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-58784362312565101722007-11-05T02:23:00.000-05:002007-11-05T02:23:00.000-05:00Zilch, Being a Christian is no guarantee of being ...Zilch,<BR/><BR/><I> Being a Christian is no guarantee of being a good person. Nor is being an atheist.</I><BR/><BR/>I think this is what we are all trying to say. The key word, in my opinion, is "being". Being a Christian, in my opinion, should have some expectations behind it. If a person claims to follow Christ, there should be some solid evidence of the character that is attributed to Jesus showing in the life of the person. If a person is an atheist there is no specific conduct or expectation required beyond being a decent human being.<BR/><BR/>When talking about Hitler and his regime, there must be some criteria for analyzing his claims. If he called himself a Christian yet didn't exhibit the character of Christ in many ways, I don't think we can accept that his understanding of what it means to "be a Christian" is accurate according to the measure.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I'm a bit jealous that you are in Vienna. :)<BR/><BR/>Lee,<BR/>I am not trying to change history to fit my perception, I am only pointing out what we can all observe from any political figure.<BR/>Many things are said which are not true.<BR/><BR/>All I can do is judge from my chair as I peek into a dark window. Based on the little I CAN see, I can confidently say that he was not anything like Jesus and therefore should not be given any credit for being a Christian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78157175574815463972007-11-04T10:03:00.000-05:002007-11-04T10:03:00.000-05:00jon- I'm not complaining, just pointing out what I...jon- I'm not complaining, just pointing out what I think is faulty reasoning.<BR/><BR/>I'm all for judging people by their actions, not their affiliations. But what you've done is judged the actions of the Nazis to be evil (no disagreement there) and fantasized an affiliation which is very weak at best.<BR/><BR/>Truth is, there are good and bad people (or, to state it with less baggage, people who do harm to others) of just about any religion or secular philosophy you can name. Being a Christian is no guarantee of being a good person. Nor is being an atheist.<BR/><BR/>Jon, if you're ever in Vienna, or in the SF Bay Area in summer, drop me a line, and I'll spring for the drinks. I'm actually a pretty nice person, by all accounts. This invitation goes for all of the rest of you, too.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75960703666791572022007-11-04T01:01:00.000-05:002007-11-04T01:01:00.000-05:00Hi Jon, Zilch,I can't say much now but I do want t...Hi Jon, Zilch,<BR/>I can't say much now but I do want to say I am relieved at Jons reaction to Zilch.<BR/><B><I>You're taking it completely out of context and reading something into it that isn't there, then drawing the most ridiculous comparison possible.</B></I><BR/><BR/>because after responding to Bryan, Jon and jennifer and one of them asserting that I was misrepresenting their position, I was wondering if I was too hasty or had a problem with reading comprehension. I see now that I didn't and it is just a case of some people not thinking their viewpoints through to their logical conclusion.<BR/><BR/>I'm out for a little while.<BR/><BR/>have fun.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90061563129128621712007-11-03T16:54:00.000-04:002007-11-03T16:54:00.000-04:00It's not a cheap shot if it's justified and intend...It's not a cheap shot if it's justified and intended for discussion, which it is. Compared to the indefensible and completely juvenile insults that have come from some of the other post-ers I really don't think you have anything to complain to me about.<BR/><BR/>In fact, the only part of my post that you attacked was the observation that we should judge people according to their beliefs as carried out in their actions, not by their affiliations, and this is easily defended. I can go to AA all I want, but only if I am addicted to alcohol do I become an alcoholic.<BR/><BR/>Besides, you've misjudged me. I'm the first to condemn Christians. Heck, I condemn humanity in general, including myself, as we all should. None of us are perfect. You'll never hear me defend the laziness and greed of WWII Christian America, or the dull, thick-headed fanaticism of the Christian Nazis. They all should have known better. I will defend Christianity for as long as it takes, but I'll rarely defend a Christian.jonmarckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05746070637148240770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19282824389638617952007-11-03T13:26:00.000-04:002007-11-03T13:26:00.000-04:00jon- sorry, I'll stand by my analysis. I'm not sa...jon- sorry, I'll stand by my analysis. I'm not saying that you are like a Nazi, just that your reasoning is similar in this case: you don't want to admit that coreligionists can do wrong, so you blame the "other" instead. And that in the teeth of evidence that the "others" have little or nothing to do with the problems.<BR/><BR/>And as far as taking offence at "cheap shots"- this from the guy who tells us atheists that atheism is responsible for the Holocaust.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-919886582188088982007-11-03T12:28:00.000-04:002007-11-03T12:28:00.000-04:00Man, that just doesn't make any sense. You're taki...Man, that just doesn't make any sense. You're taking it completely out of context and reading something into it that isn't there, then drawing the most ridiculous comparison possible. You're not interested in an intelligent discussion. You're just interested in embarrassing the other side as conveniently as possible.<BR/><BR/>I'm really sick of the cheap shots, low blows and suckerpunches.jonmarckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05746070637148240770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-45470317780824633032007-11-03T05:04:00.000-04:002007-11-03T05:04:00.000-04:00jon says:We must get away from judging people by t...jon says:<BR/><BR/><I>We must get away from judging people by their affiliations. Instead, judge them by their philosophy as carried out by their actions. It doesn't matter that the Nazis called themselves Christians if the philosophy they followed was more atheistic than anything else.</I><BR/><BR/>Here we have it clearly stated: if people do evil, it must have been inspired by atheism, <I>no matter what the evildoers themselves claim about their beliefs</I>. This is as good an example as I've ever run across of how religious belief can distort rationality. This is the same kind of reasoning that the Nazis employed to attribute all the ills of Weimar Germany to the Jews.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29893043584768848122007-11-02T17:44:00.000-04:002007-11-02T17:44:00.000-04:00I have two reasons to believe Nazism to be closer ...I have two reasons to believe Nazism to be closer to atheism than anything else:<BR/><BR/>1) It's most horrendous and differentiating beliefs were taken directly from Nietzche's nihilism. Take, for example, the belief in the superman. This was the ideology directly responsible for the genocide. Of course Nietzche would have never supported such crimes, but he also understood (and wrote) that such evil was the direct consequence of his philosophy.<BR/><BR/>2) The very fact that the Nazi leaders flip-flopped so often between supporting Christianity and insulting it shows their skepticism. If they actually believed in an all-powerful, vengeful creator, regardless of what one, they would treat the matter more reverently and not change their view depending on how they were talking to. The fact that they move between mocking God and using him so frequently shows they didn't really believe in him.<BR/><BR/>I think it is as another post-er put it: Hitler was a theist because he believed himself to be God. This is what I most agree with, but I also believe this is a direct result of atheism. However I don't want to argue this just yet because it would be like opening a whole separate can of worms.<BR/><BR/>We must get away from judging people by their affiliations. Instead, judge them by their philosophy as carried out by their actions. It doesn't matter that the Nazis called themselves Christians if the philosophy they followed was more atheistic than anything else. This idea of doing away with camps and categories has long been a point of confusion among skeptics and has led to some rather annoying misconceptions (check out South Park's view on the afterlife for an abundance of misleading information).<BR/><BR/>Here is one of the most compelling responses to the problem of evil (given by Ravi Zacharias and William Lane Craig):<BR/><BR/>http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&v=detail&id=979jonmarckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05746070637148240770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-33195380501403285182007-11-02T16:38:00.000-04:002007-11-02T16:38:00.000-04:00I'm not trying to get into the Hitler is an atheis...I'm not trying to get into the Hitler is an atheist argument. I just assume he was a theist who believe that the god of his belief was himself. But, can't atheism be classified as a religion? Why all this talk about Hitler being religious as proof that he wasn't an atheist?Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-92032707173778456652007-11-02T16:33:00.000-04:002007-11-02T16:33:00.000-04:00Can we really trust anything Hitler said in public...<I>Can we really trust anything Hitler said in public?</I><BR/><BR/>Some of the quotes are from private correspondences Hitler had that were not for public consumption. He was a theist to the end. He started a religion, for Chrissakes!<BR/><BR/><I>He was talking to Germans who had a long history of spirituality before Christianity even blinked upon the scene. He had to line up with some form of belief in the divine in order to be seen as a noble leader.</I><BR/><BR/>Stalin didn't, and the Russians had a much greater tradition of religion than the Germans--they had a near-divine czar for centuries. True, Stalin <B>used</B> the Church, but he never claimed to be either religious or divine, and he was pretty successful in grasping and holding power over a religious nation.<BR/><BR/><I>Look at the fruit of his life...Jesus said people would know His followers by their love for one another.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh, the Nazi's had no problem loving one another; it was the outsiders that gave them problems.<BR/><BR/>And lest we forget, Hitler didn't kill many millions of people with his own two hands. The Catholic Church says that over 25% of SS members were confessing Catholics (not lapsed, confessing). Most of the rest were Protestant. They are the ones who did the killings in the name of God and the Aryan race, and many of them eagerly. Atheism was stamped out, being considered to be related to Bolshevism. Look at his fruits; they were not atheists. Atheists suffered under Nazi Germany, just as they did under Franco's Spain and Mussolini's Italy (an atheist who converted to Catholocism before he commited his atrocities).<BR/><BR/>You're trying to pull the common religious trick: <BR/><BR/>1.) A Christian (or Muslim) is defined as someone who follows Christ and is good.<BR/>2.) Therefore, all Christians (or Muslims, etc.) are good.<BR/><BR/>This is circular reasoning. Additionally, Christians are constantly strutting about, claiming the US is a Christian nation when obviously it isn't by your definition; that Christianity has been hugely successful historically when obviously it hasn't by your definition; etc. If all Christians are good and loving, then Christianity is and always has been a tiny fringe cult.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12114932548665060342007-11-02T13:39:00.000-04:002007-11-02T13:39:00.000-04:00Calling Hitler an atheist despite all of the cont...Calling Hitler an atheist despite all of the contrary evidence is ludicrous.<BR/><BR/>We non believers need to watch this as well. If we think, for example, that the Bush administrations policies are based mainly on his faith we are just kidding ourselves.<BR/><BR/>The Bush administration is willing to use anyone to get and retain power so that they can do what they want to do. The religious right was just a useful and very, VERY, easy to manipulate voting block. A congregation is called a 'flock' for a reason.<BR/><BR/>As evidence, read "Tempting Faith: An Inside Story of Political Seduction" by David Kuo.<BR/><BR/>He was high up in the "Office of faith based initiatives." He left after figuring out that the Bush administration really didn't care about religion, and mocked the religious behind closed doors. He was not the first such person to leave for those reasons either.<BR/><BR/>It would do us all well to realize that religion is most often just one tool that the power hungry use to achieve their goals.billfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03301668796147036144noreply@blogger.com