tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post6611191264962699644..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: On Being Ignorant of One's Ignorance and Unaware of Being Unskilled, by John LoftusUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger136125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61510137875354370372010-06-10T13:36:44.377-04:002010-06-10T13:36:44.377-04:00Brickmin says:
I have said this repeatedly... &qu...Brickmin says:<br /><br />I have said this repeatedly... "Observation of a choice" does NOT mean there is no choice." The fact that God is omni time and can tell us WHAT WE WILL CHOOSE in the future does NOT mean that we don't choose it.<br /><br /><br /><br />I'll tell you what does mean that we don't choose it: we don't chose it if we don't get created. <br /><br />But that option is eliminated by God's act of creation. Seems God's determination to create would not-- and could--not be tempered by calm, compassionate consideration of the risks involved. I repeat, a God whose philosophy appears to be, you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs, is a wee bit too ham-fisted and amoral for my taste.Bronxboy47https://www.blogger.com/profile/12820086206830534185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54235942360370419152010-06-08T16:25:13.076-04:002010-06-08T16:25:13.076-04:00Marcus.
You are an extraodinary believer!
You fa...Marcus.<br /><br />You are an extraodinary believer!<br /><br />You fall into the crowd of believers which have the frame of mind-"we dont believe the bible means what it says, we believe the bible says what we mean"!<br /><br />You made an example of this frame of mind when we argued about God creating day,night,evening and morning, before He even created the sun (according to Genesis).<br /><br />The thing I find amusing though, is the fact that you assume you know exactly what is meant in the bible, and the exact beliefs held by the OT yahwehists as well as the NT apostles,...yet... all our thoughts, interpretions, and views on scripture are dead wrong...!shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83343932000202119142010-06-08T15:49:06.503-04:002010-06-08T15:49:06.503-04:00Marcus "Jesus definitely had monogamous marri...Marcus "Jesus definitely had monogamous marriage in mind..."<br /><br />Yeah, but for some reason, he worked polygamy into one of his parables...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54991054747349797932010-06-08T15:39:25.095-04:002010-06-08T15:39:25.095-04:00"...The best you can say is that it happened...."...The best you can say is that it happened. And due to the Biblical recorded instances when it did happen I want no part of it."<br /><br />Nahhh! You're just saying that because your wife is sitting right there next to you.<br /><br />;o)GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14763458476879017162010-06-08T15:28:11.418-04:002010-06-08T15:28:11.418-04:00Shane, the Bible does not conflict with itself. I ...Shane, the Bible does not conflict with itself. I didn't say that God did not allow polygamy. I said that God does not condone it. It's not confusing at all. Just like divorce is not condoned but allowed because we are hardheaded and hardhearted. For the new covenant there is no condemnation of polygamy - but an affirmation of monogamy. Polygamy was rampant throughout the world of the the first century. That is what they did, but Paul was pointing to something greater. Something that we should want. So for now for most people, polygamy is unthinkable. Congratulations. Not so in the first century. For the church it was time to make a change for what is best. I quoted Jesus earlier. Jesus definitely had monogamous marriage in mind. I mean to which wife would you cleave to if you had more than one?<br /><br />The Bible is not giving conflicting messages. Allowing something is not the same as condoning it. When Peter and Paul went out and preached to unbelievers do you think they were thumping them in the head saying that "You have more one wife..you and they are going to HELL!" No. Look at the whole passage. The whole passage is talking about the ideal. What do you do if you became a Christian and already had 2 wives? Pick one? No. In such a situation he has to fulfill his obligation to both of them. 1 Cor 7:17-23.<br /><br />Therefore you can't say polygamy was condemned or condoned, only allowed in Old Testament times, and revealed to be a real bad idea throughout the Bible. The best you can say is that it happened. And due to the Biblical recorded instances when it did happen I want no part of it.mmcelhaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567242628894011776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16364994220156157432010-06-08T14:53:07.046-04:002010-06-08T14:53:07.046-04:00Shane said,
"If you disagree, then you conce...Shane said,<br /><br />"If you disagree, then you concede with me, that the bible does INFACT contradict itself!"<br /><br />I agree. One among many contradictions.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-68821631769852664802010-06-08T14:36:50.537-04:002010-06-08T14:36:50.537-04:00Marcus.
Give me a break!
This is the last thing I...Marcus.<br /><br />Give me a break!<br />This is the last thing I'll say in regards to polygamy.<br /><br />God obviously allowed many of His so called faithful have multiple wives, Abraham, Jacob, etc.....<br />So polygamy was obviously allowed by God, otherwise God would not allow such practices among His faithful......especially if He commanded death penalties to people for doing things like working on the Sabbath, or dishonoring thy mother and father...etc..<br /><br />The new testament does teach the practice of one wife, and Paul says so in 1 Corinthians.<br />It is a christian doctrine as well, and christians abhor the practice of polygamy.<br /><br />So therefore, in order for you to make any sense at all, then you must admit that both polygamy and monogamy in marriage, are purely human practices in which God gives no real instruction in!<br />And therefore also, both might as well be condoned as far as God is concerned.<br /><br />If you disagree, then you concede with me, that the bible does INFACT contradict itself!shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81270737076693919282010-06-08T14:29:40.525-04:002010-06-08T14:29:40.525-04:00Marcus; "I explained why Ryan was wrong about...Marcus; "I explained why Ryan was wrong about the Bible condoning Polygamy and he conceded. "<br /><br />I conceded that the bible endorses polygamy. It definitely doesn't condemn it and it's definitely much more confused on the subject than one would expect from a divinely inspired book (which of course your confirmed with your comments).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57082529183477161942010-06-08T14:24:33.477-04:002010-06-08T14:24:33.477-04:00Let it be said at any rate that my having referenc...Let it be said at any rate that my having referenced the Bible in many of these posts doesn't mean I believe in God in any way; but I need to address these allegations by referencing the stories in the source material.<br /><br />Sometimes, the Christians get the impression that for us atheists to do so somehow confirms the "reality" of their God despite the repeated statements from atheists that we don't believe in any god(s).<br /><br />I hold to the concept that the Bible is not historical, since it was written with religious AND political motives in mind.<br /><br />In other words, I cannot "separate" myself from something that doesn't exist.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52786136838921482322010-06-08T14:00:15.508-04:002010-06-08T14:00:15.508-04:00Eller said that same thing in chapter one of TCD
...<i>Eller said that same thing in chapter one of TCD</i><br /><br />That must be where I got it from. ;)Spanish Inquisitorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05261181794832002207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-50584436587603675532010-06-08T13:43:02.700-04:002010-06-08T13:43:02.700-04:00Excellent Inquisitor! Eller said that same thing i...Excellent Inquisitor! Eller said that same thing in chapter one of TCD. Marcus, you ought to read it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16957905627880681082010-06-08T13:41:41.037-04:002010-06-08T13:41:41.037-04:00It's been an interesting discussion, gentlemen...It's been an interesting discussion, gentlemen, but it's now beginning to remind me of the aphorism:<br /><br />"You can't reason someone out of something they haven't been reasoned into".<br /><br />Reason is getting exhausted.Spanish Inquisitorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05261181794832002207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17078827999605840572010-06-08T13:18:24.477-04:002010-06-08T13:18:24.477-04:00@GearHedEd
I haven't tap danced anything. You...@GearHedEd<br /><br />I haven't tap danced anything. You said that Jesus should have been sent sooner and I explained why He did not. <br /><br />I disagree with who left whom. Adam mad a free choice. He chose to disobey, God did not make him do that. And you choose to distance yourself from God. He has not rejected you. <br />I stated it the way I did on purpose because I disagree with you. <br /><br />You said:<br /><br /><b>Paraphrased into "atheist-ese", it says,<br /><br />"Don't escalate confrontations; everyone loses when you do."</b><br /><br />Jesus was speaking lot more broadly. Don't just not do to other what you do not want done to! He said do to others what you want done to you. Id you want your enemy to take you out to dinner you should take him out to dinner. It's more than don't kill your enemy if you don't want your enemy to kill you. Jesus raises the bar quite higher than what you are talking about.mmcelhaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567242628894011776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14953726142023319162010-06-08T13:03:44.904-04:002010-06-08T13:03:44.904-04:00And you've done nothing but spin for the last ...And you've done nothing but spin for the last 30 comments or more.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-33862589612817304172010-06-08T13:02:26.856-04:002010-06-08T13:02:26.856-04:00And just so you know:
When I said,
"I can h...And just so you know:<br /><br />When I said,<br /><br />"I can hear you winding up to "apologize" for the bloodthirsty nature of Yahweh."<br /><br />the reason for putting the word "apologize" in quotation marks was to differentiate it from the common definition of 'saying you're sorry'.<br /><br />You have nothing to apologize for there.<br /><br />The definition of "apologize" I was after was the one where religious thinkers put a spin on something to minimize the defects in the story.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49048514706859644862010-06-08T12:53:20.682-04:002010-06-08T12:53:20.682-04:00And you admitted that he did this in order to spri...And you admitted that he did this in order to spring Jesus on us when he was ready.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3965034963097976652010-06-08T12:51:13.524-04:002010-06-08T12:51:13.524-04:00"God did not separate himself from us..."..."God did not separate himself from us..."<br /><br />I didn't say that he did.<br /><br />What I said is that he separated us from himself. That's not the same thing.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39293655803181521722010-06-08T12:46:02.294-04:002010-06-08T12:46:02.294-04:00Marcus.
That last comment was a cop out.
I didn&...Marcus.<br /><br />That last comment was a cop out.<br /><br />I didn't forget anything about Jesus. You're just trying to tap dance your way out of admitting that you all but said that your theology is an incoherent mess. Now you're layering more made up stuff ("...Jesus could not come earlier. He came at the right time. God had a chosen way to do all of this...") on the story to try and patch the holes.<br /><br />I've seen the Emperor, and he's still naked.<br /><br />As for loving your enemies.<br /><br />That part of the "Golden Rule" isn't unique to Jesus, either.<br /><br />Paraphrased into "atheist-ese", it says,<br /><br />"Don't escalate confrontations; everyone loses when you do."GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47592699096518680622010-06-08T12:39:39.163-04:002010-06-08T12:39:39.163-04:00@Shane
I explained why Ryan was wrong about the B...@Shane<br /><br />I explained why Ryan was wrong about the Bible condoning Polygamy and he conceded. Feel free to try to argue why my explanation is wrong.mmcelhaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567242628894011776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1661231891866742372010-06-08T12:37:01.900-04:002010-06-08T12:37:01.900-04:00@GearHedEd
You forget that Jesus could not come e...@GearHedEd<br /><br />You forget that Jesus could not come earlier. He came at the right time. God had a chosen way to do all of this. He had specific people in mind to exist. they could not have existed if things had not happened the way it did. All of it was necessary. What I don't understand is how it all fits together. I see some of it. but not all of it. Far be it from me to argue for libertarian free will. I reject that. Notice I'm not saying that we don't make choices. I'm still saying that we sin when we transgress the laws of God wer do so because we want to. I'm noit going to apologize for God telling the Israelite to slaughter Israels' enemies. Everything God says is right even if I disagree. He's not wrong. I am. God did not separate himself from us, we walked away from him. You choose to separate yourself from him now. you are setting up a false dichotomy. By the way, is loving your enemies common sense? That is part of the golden rule. Would that have occurred to you?mmcelhaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567242628894011776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39447040251332522422010-06-08T12:35:20.834-04:002010-06-08T12:35:20.834-04:00John.
My apologies for side stepping the original...John.<br /><br />My apologies for side stepping the original post here. I take partial responsibility.<br />I have had extensive discussions with Marcus on his blog before and sometimes I get carried away arguing agianst with his concepts.shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85080499467278325602010-06-08T12:29:58.066-04:002010-06-08T12:29:58.066-04:00Marcus.
Ryan gave you an example of polygamy bein...Marcus.<br /><br />Ryan gave you an example of polygamy being condoned!<br />Just because the bible does not state-"God said let there be polygamy" does not mean it wasn't condoned!<br />And then later condemned!<br /><br />God may not have given precise orders to have multiple wives......But.... As Ryan said, there are "instructions" in the OT regarding the precepts of polygamy, and there are specific "orders" in the NT regarding the precepts of monogamy!<br /><br />And if the bible is what you claim it to be (divinely inspired), then we can assume God most definitely condoned polygamy at one time and condemned it another.<br /><br />And if there is a God, then He either contradicted Himself, changed His mind....or....He simply does not care.<br />More likely, it is all man made and there is no biblical God.shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83959050383152587992010-06-08T12:24:11.395-04:002010-06-08T12:24:11.395-04:00In the meantime, the "Golden Rule" still...In the meantime, the "Golden Rule" still applies, as it's common sense, not relevatory, i.e., we didn't need God to tell us to be good to each other.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16909240685800147642010-06-08T11:55:11.342-04:002010-06-08T11:55:11.342-04:00"This was set up from the beginning. IF you d..."This was set up from the beginning. IF you don't like it, take it up with God. I don't understand it all."<br /><br />Do you understand it NOW?GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13903624553883662892010-06-08T11:36:42.800-04:002010-06-08T11:36:42.800-04:00... Or it's all a myth.
Take your pick.... Or it's all a myth.<br /><br />Take your pick.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.com