tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post6534778233855892237..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: To The Boiling Point...Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38218970804553849322007-10-03T16:55:00.000-04:002007-10-03T16:55:00.000-04:00I'm a late-comer to this story. Maybe nobody's wat...I'm a late-comer to this story. Maybe nobody's watching it anymore. I liked your mother's way of handling the man. Stick to the truth. Be honest. Do your duty. That keeps you out of trouble a lot of the time. The rest of the time it saves you from a guilty conscience so you can focus on getting out of the trouble you're in. You mom's head seemed to be screwed on right. Thanks for sharing that story, Joe.RSMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15590239851722379588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84278462670961221142007-08-03T00:50:00.000-04:002007-08-03T00:50:00.000-04:00Thanks, guys. You have all been tremendously empa...Thanks, guys. You have all been tremendously empathetic and accepting of me. I truly appreciate the honest conversation at this time in my life. John, thanks for the link and Prup for the the words of encouragement. Kevin, I'm sorry I didn't realize where you were coming from but appreciate your exchange. Jennifer, you are an honest seeker and I'm intrigued by your perspective, as well. For Steve, and anyone else who cares to correspond, my email is deepthinker101 at gmail. <BR/><BR/>The next biggest challenge to the faith issue for me is negotiating the faith-based relationships I have with family, friends, and members of my church. I'm having this faith crisis in the middle of teaching several adult Bible classes (I'm the go-to guy in my small church). There are several outspoken, dogmatic members who have almost triggered me to say what's really on my mind. On the other hand, there are some dear hearts who have believed in me and supported me consistently from day one that I would not want to disappoint for the world. I'll save the rest of the story for anyone who is interested in writing.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-80810208130589241202007-08-02T23:56:00.000-04:002007-08-02T23:56:00.000-04:00Prup,I changed my e-mail address...I'll send you m...Prup,<BR/>I changed my e-mail address...I'll send you my new one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-34427713624076163242007-08-02T23:28:00.000-04:002007-08-02T23:28:00.000-04:00Oops. I screwed up the address. It should be steve...Oops. I screwed up the address. <BR/><BR/>It should be stevejones53, followed by the "at" symbol, followed by <I>inbox</I> dot com.SteveJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04525881183798559993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3843215807404150882007-08-02T22:32:00.000-04:002007-08-02T22:32:00.000-04:00Jospeh:If you want to write me, John has my addres...Jospeh:<BR/>If you want to write me, John has my address, but, as Jennifer can tell you, I am sometimes a lousy correspondent.Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-44267971262206602042007-08-02T21:57:00.000-04:002007-08-02T21:57:00.000-04:00Hey Jospeh,You and I are in similar straits. If yo...Hey Jospeh,<BR/><BR/>You and I are in similar straits. If you ever want someone to commiserate with, feel free to shoot me an E-mail. The first part of my address is stevejones53, followed by the "at" symbol, followed by dot com.SteveJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04525881183798559993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37936404314593160842007-08-02T21:09:00.000-04:002007-08-02T21:09:00.000-04:00Jospeh:Just realize that all of us on 'this side' ...Jospeh:<BR/>Just realize that all of us on 'this side' -- and, I suspect, many on the other -- understand what you are going through and how difficult it is for you. I, for one am glad there is someone like Kevin -- I don't know him but take John's description as accurate -- offering you support from 'there' and, while I have, and will ask you questions that will challenge your faith, I promise you my support, whichever way you choose to step.<BR/><BR/>And one way I may be able to help you is to tell a story I've written elsewhere here, and to add one comment.<BR/><BR/>As I've said, I come from a different tradition than most of you, since I was a Roman Catholic. (And I did not become an atheist because I left Catholicism, I left Catholicism because I found I could only be an atheist.)<BR/><BR/>[Aside to Lowevdaction, this is why I find it difficult to answer your question. For Catholics, 'union with Christ' is accomplished through the organization they believe he founded, through Peter, to preserve, protect, and put forth his message, not though a one-on-one relationship.]<BR/><BR/>When I was where you are, or maybe a step or so further on to where I am now, Fr. Jaschko, the Jesuit who taught 11th Grade religion to my class at St. Peter's said something I still remember. It was to the class, not to me, since he had no idea of where I was in my own journey. He said, "We are Catholics for only one reason, because we believe Catholicism to be true. If you do not believe it to be true, you are wrong, you are even committing a sin by 'going through the motions' and continuing to call yourselves Catholics."<BR/><BR/>I thought about it on the long train ride home and realized that I did not and could not believe it was true, and that i could no longer call myself a Catholic, or a Christian, or anything but the atheist I had become.<BR/><BR/>But of course I had to be honest. Desapite the arrogance I had then and still have, I had to ask myself, 'but what if you are wrong?' And many times since then and up to today, I still have to ask that question.<BR/><BR/>But I still answer the only way I honestly can. The God I had been taught to believe in was a good God, just, but loving. He had created Hell, yes, but out of reluctant necessity, and -- to anthropomorphize -- his heart broke when he had, rarely, to send someone there. He was never the terrible ogre of the Calvinists. For him, heaven, not hell, was the 'default position.' He had, in the words of the second question of the catechism, 'created us to know, love, and serve him in this world and to be happy with him in the next.'<BR/><BR/>No, I could not believe in his existence, but if I <I>was</I> wrong, he knew my heart, and he knew the sincerity of my own disbelief. The God I was taught could not reward hypocrisy, or punish honesty. He would judge me, yes, but on my actions -- remember that Catholicism believes in salvation not by faith alone, but by faith AND works. He would know if I had been a good, an ethical person, and he would, again, know the sincerity of my disbelief.<BR/><BR/>I was, and have been, ethical. Not perfect, of course, but I had no fear of being judged negatively on the sum of my life. I still have no doubt that neither God, heaven, nor hell is anything more than a fantasy, but again, if I am wrong, I know of no reason to fear God or hell. (Purgatory, perhaps, that eminently sensible idea that accepts that not all sins and faults are equal, but again, from what I had been taught, this was the first, temporary fate of almost all but the true saints. But hell, no.)<BR/><BR/>I don't know if this is helpful, but I hope it is. And be warned, my next post to you will challenge you and your faith yet again.Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89889331320673726922007-08-02T19:43:00.000-04:002007-08-02T19:43:00.000-04:00Joe,You might like this.You know where I'm coming ...Joe,<BR/>You might like <A HREF="http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid626910466?bctid=932561427" REL="nofollow">this</A>.<BR/><BR/>You know where I'm coming from, but I agree with parts of what you are saying...I just don't have the time to go into it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47667791117872134182007-08-02T18:59:00.000-04:002007-08-02T18:59:00.000-04:00DC - I mean absolutley no disrespect, nore am I at...DC - I mean absolutley no disrespect, nore am I attempting to judge you or anyone. This simply my attempt at better understanding you (and thus the world around me).<BR/><BR/>I've gotta run now, so more later.<BR/><BR/>BTW, I read the faq's before I ever began posting here, and I guess I just hadn't found any satisfactory anwers, but perhaps I have more digging to do.<BR/><BR/>Thank you all for this forum, and for the respect you afford all who are seeking!!!lowendactionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15509676520378562142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-44733031358980325482007-08-02T18:48:00.000-04:002007-08-02T18:48:00.000-04:00Jospeh, check this out, here.Jospeh, check this out, <A HREF="http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=2669" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23370148496685621522007-08-02T18:36:00.000-04:002007-08-02T18:36:00.000-04:00Thanks, John. Honestly, I have to stop and take in...Thanks, John. Honestly, I have to stop and take in what is happening to me right now. Sometimes I'm amazed to hear myself, based on how strong a Christian I used to be. I'm thinking of starting a blog to dialog with other Christians who are having similar struggles with there faith. I feel very alone, with a community of potential friends on either side of me.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4779969754935028342007-08-02T17:59:00.000-04:002007-08-02T17:59:00.000-04:00For the record Jospeh, Kevin Harris is a Christian...For the record Jospeh, Kevin Harris is a Christian friend of mine. He's intelligent and respectful. He's watching as your faith is dwindling and he's trying to help you. I ache for him as I read his attempts to help you retain your faith. He's only trying to help. I don't see him merely wanting to debate fine points, but that's just my interpretation. <BR/><BR/>Your points though, are well taken, Jospeh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77944964829414903672007-08-02T17:46:00.000-04:002007-08-02T17:46:00.000-04:00Kevin, I have to smile reading your response. It ...Kevin, I have to smile reading your response. It seems you are more interested in debating the fine points of my comments, rather than having a productive conversation based on them. I think it's quite obvious what I mean by "faith" in this context. Faith is the active exercise of belief in a particular tenant (i.e. "I believe that God answers the prayers of his people"). It is my observation that when Christians are pressed on the issue of why God would respond to some prayers and not others, they immediately jump from a posture of "assured faith" to one of "blind faith." Like the conversation with my friend the other day after church: <BR/><BR/>[ME] "We say God is omnibenevolent, omnipresent, and omnipotent, right? "<BR/><BR/>[FRIEND]"That's right, reason leads us to believe God is all those things."<BR/><BR/>[ME] "That means he hates rape and would rather that there be no rape in his world. But think about this: even though he is present when the rape occurs and has the power to stop it, he quite often does nothing. Doesn't that bother you?" <BR/><BR/>[FRIEND] "Well, we must have faith that God has a good reason for allowing that rape to take place." <BR/><BR/>Do you see how quickly she moved from one faith-stance to the other? <BR/><BR/>You said, "Please notice that in your attempt to deny the need to defend the Faith, you are defending the Faith!"<BR/><BR/>Go back and read my post. I did nothing of the sort. I simply made an ironic observation that Christian apologetics are not serving us so well if we just end up reverting back to the tired "I don't know, we've just got to believe; that's my faith, like it or not" position. It's either a reasonable faith or not. <BR/><BR/>When confronted with the scale of the problem of evil and suffering, I am finding it quite intellectually challenging these days to believe that there is a God who is looking out for us and actively answering prayers. How can Christians credit Him with answering their prayers for a better job or healing, yet fail to see he is ignoring the prayers of the slaughtered and enslaved in the Sudan? Are we to believe that God justs like middle-class white Americans better than third-world black Africans? (I'm being facetious, in case you missed it.)<BR/><BR/>BTW, I don't know of a single Christian who would blatantly say, "Thank God for the miracle that the tornado skipped my house but the poor sap down the road got a telephone pole through him." Most aren't troubled to think that far beyond their own personal deliverance to ask "Why me and not them?" But they certainly should.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-21661425403944698432007-08-02T16:32:00.000-04:002007-08-02T16:32:00.000-04:00lowendaction, as you can tell we can get pretty an...lowendaction, as you can tell we can get pretty angry with such a question. We are told many many times we were never "Christians" in the first place, and it's hard for us to realize that from your perspective this is the first time you've asked it. But from ours we're extremely tired of it. It personally maligns us, in that it assumes we're ignorant of that which we claim to have had a personal experience and commitment about. It would be akin to us asking you to prove you're a Christian over and over and over again. To answer your question though, in the banner at the top of the home page (or any page) is a link to Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ Sheet). Click on it and there are several posts to read answering this question of yours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-36883304191777461022007-08-02T16:23:00.000-04:002007-08-02T16:23:00.000-04:00lowendaction said... "If it applies, do you bel...lowendaction said...<BR/><BR/> "If it applies, do you believe that in your former lives as "Christians" you were in fact EVER in close relation to God, or were you (in hind-sight) merely "going through the motions"? Comparative to a failed marriage, where one is bound through many years via a ring, name and an oath, but nothing else."<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>My reply...<BR/><BR/>Are you this uninformed? Must you piss us off with more of the typical <B>"you were never really saved"</B> crap that we get all the time? Shees! <BR/><BR/>Is it so hard for you to believe that someone could know god (as far as the term goes) joyously and then walk away from him that you can't believe it when you hear about it?<BR/><BR/>Most infidels (former preachers included) used to be men of great and passionate faith, as was I, and I believe everyone who posts here. <BR/><BR/>Read my forthcoming book and you'll have no doubt of this. <BR/><BR/>(JH)Joe E. Holmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273702675019012966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43217608598251923982007-08-02T13:42:00.000-04:002007-08-02T13:42:00.000-04:00Joseph,What do you mean by "faith"? We all accept ...Joseph,<BR/><BR/>What do you mean by "faith"? We all accept things with varying degrees of faith. But faith can be reasonable faith, and not "blind faith". Warranted vs. credulous.<BR/><BR/>Please notice that in your attempt to deny the need to defend the Faith, you are defending the Faith! You are offering reasons for why faith in Christ is warranted. It's like doing apologetics against apologetics!<BR/><BR/>All of us are apologists for our worldviews.<BR/><BR/>When the Christian says, "Thank God for the miracle that the tornado skipped my house but the poor sap down the road got a telephone pole through him", that person is giving thanks to God in a rather insensitive way. Don't you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-9935876037035379762007-08-02T13:32:00.000-04:002007-08-02T13:32:00.000-04:00I've got a semi-non-post related question...didn't...I've got a semi-non-post related question...didn't know how or where else to interject this:<BR/><BR/>This is for all the DC authors (perhaps a future post!)<BR/><BR/>If it applies, do you believe that in your former lives as "Christians" you were in fact EVER in close relation to God, or were you (in hind-sight) merely "going through the motions"? Comparative to a failed marriage, where one is bound through many years via a ring, name and an oath, but nothing else.<BR/><BR/>IOW, is it possible that what you considered to be Christianity, was nothing more than a shallow religious matinee performance. This may not even have been entirely your own fault, due to churchianic or family upbringing. I realize what your current views on the subject are. However, I am currious as to the validity and genuine nature of the former YOU.<BR/><BR/>My theory, is that you never actaully experienced a close relationship to God, but instead walked through a series of steps and motions that have been created around the framework of God's original plan, to make the "Christian life" more pallettable to our liking. I know this sounds very much like an attach, but it really isn't. It is the exact same question I would ask ANYONE who claims (or claimed) the name of Christ...to include myself! I often hear it asked why God made Himself and the knowing of Him so complicated, thus hindering the masses from "being on the same page". I believe that the deapth and realness that God seeks in our character and naked love to Him is reserved for a precious few, but available to ALL. <BR/><BR/>As with most things in life that are well worth having and keeping, they come at a cost, and with considerable effort. That's nothing compared to what God wants from us. And I happen to believe, it's because He has something far beyond our comprehension planned for us after this crappy terrestial boot-camp we're all in.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for indulding my curiosity.lowendactionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15509676520378562142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6581218139741074912007-08-02T11:32:00.000-04:002007-08-02T11:32:00.000-04:00I'm starting to believe that to remain a Christian...I'm starting to believe that to remain a Christian, I need to take an entirely different approach than I have in the past. Instead of defending the faith against attacks I should just accept some things on faith. That's what most of my brethren seem willing to do--accept two propositions, even if they seem to contradict one another. If that's the stance we're all going to take, then maybe we should get out of the apologetics business entirely. <BR/><BR/>What got me thinking about this was Richard Dawkin's debate with Alister McGrath where he asks point blank why Christians offer thanks to God when they are saved from a tragedy which has engulfed numerous others (Saturday, July 14 blog)Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75448241868135800182007-08-02T07:21:00.000-04:002007-08-02T07:21:00.000-04:00Keep in mind as well that Christians generally try...Keep in mind as well that Christians generally try to be careful to give God thanks, credit, and glory in all things.<BR/><BR/>That it is often expressed in unsophisticated ways just shows that people tend to be unsophisticated; especially theologically.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-739907299213624192007-08-02T01:53:00.000-04:002007-08-02T01:53:00.000-04:00After Wed night church tonight, I confessed to a f...After Wed night church tonight, I confessed to a friend that I feel selfish praying for my own needs when there are so many other needs that warrant God's attention (i.e. genocide and slavery in the Sudan). Her view is that God has basically left this world in our hands and doesn't interfere, with only rare exceptions. In the same breath she said she prays regularly and believes I should, too. <BR/><BR/>I suspect her view might be the default of many of my Christian brethren who have come face to face unanswered prayer in the face of great evil. Basically, they have adjusted their view of prayer to give God an out. They still pray on the chance that God will intervene, and give him the credit when things do work out, as in Joe's story. But they believe this life, with all its problem is really "our show." <BR/><BR/>My friend closed by quoting a few lyrics from a Garth Brooks song: "Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers/ Remember when you're talkin' to the man upstairs/<BR/>That just because he doesn't answer doesn't mean he don't care/Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers."<BR/><BR/>I guess that's a palatable message for well-off Americans...but try sharing that with a person who has really tasted the bitterness of cruelty and injustice. Somehow it doesn't sound so pious anymore.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1602648828798705352007-08-01T18:47:00.000-04:002007-08-01T18:47:00.000-04:00Prup, I understand. You know I like you very much....Prup, I understand. You know I like you very much. In a few years as I get older I want to be just like you...but not right now. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87000104669066690352007-08-01T18:36:00.000-04:002007-08-01T18:36:00.000-04:00Joe: Sorry for 'hijacking' the thread again -- tho...Joe: Sorry for 'hijacking' the thread again -- though what thread here doesn't get hijacked -- but I do need to respond to John's comments.<BR/><BR/>John: no, I really DON'T 'look for ways to disagree with your own team members here at DC.' In fact, over all, I probably agree with about 95% of what's written here. But I AM an 'individual,' and someone who comes from a completely different background from most of you, and sometimes I do see things differently, or question a historical analogy, or think a post is better left unsaid. And I state this, and I insist this is a good thing. (I'm not talking, btw, about the Acharya situation which was entirely different.)<BR/><BR/>Because I think I am also talking to a different audience than you are in some cases. For example, when I take on Bnonn and demonstrate the ugliness of his ideas, and their absurdity, I might hope to reach him, but in reality, I think this is totally unlikely. His cranium seems to have been totally concretized, and whatever I say won't penetrate him.<BR/><BR/>But there are others reading this, some of whom contribute, some merely lurk, some who won't discover this blog until years from now, even, who may have been raised in Bnonn's Calvinism and just starting to have doubts, or who might have rejected their own form of Christianity, but not Christianity itself and who might be beginning to be tempted by arguments like this. They are who I am talking to, at least in my own mind.<BR/><BR/>But these people don't need another group of people who claims to 'have all the answers.' They've gotten that all their lives, from their parents and pastors and neighbors. They can get that in any church in their town, the more absurd the doctrine the more loudly it is preached.<BR/><BR/>They've been told they 'have to be certain,' that doubts and thinking for yourself is wrong and dangerous. They need to see people who are strong in their own opinions, yes, but who admit that certainty is impossible and unnecessary. They don't need a 'new dogma' to replace the old.<BR/><BR/>And they've been told it is very risky to associate with anyone except someone who 'thinks just like them.' Someone who disagrees, who sees things differently, why that might be Satan in disguise, trying to lure them off to hell.<BR/><BR/>They NEED to see a group of people who are friends, and who CAN disagree without losing either the friendship or the respect they have for each other -- as I know the two of us have for each other.<BR/><BR/>They need to learn to think, yes, but they need to learn not to fear thinking, not to fear disagreement, not to fear being an individual.<BR/><BR/>And this is why you put up with this grumpy old curmudgeon from Brooklyn, as maddening as i can be to you as I can to the other sides. At leasy i hope so.Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38113616141724356922007-08-01T13:26:00.000-04:002007-08-01T13:26:00.000-04:00Prup said...Yes, the attitude you attack, when its...Prup said...<I>Yes, the attitude you attack, when its a serious position, is ugly. But this is the wrong case to use to attack it.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't follow you here. <BR/><BR/>Prup, I am convinced that you look for ways to disagree with your own team members here at DC. You are truly an "individual" a freethinker. Why don't you try instead to find areas of agreement? I do. Joe is a great writer, and he is speaking to a real belief that Christians express.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37965293305756917472007-08-01T13:19:00.000-04:002007-08-01T13:19:00.000-04:00It's certainly true that some decision points will...It's certainly true that some decision points will present fewer choices than others, maybe as few as 2, as you say. And this could be the case even for an omnipotent being, depending on whether one believes that such a being must still obey things like laws of logic, etc. I just don't think we have enough justification to argue that *all* decision points are so restricted, which I think is what's needed to argue that God does not have free will.<BR/><BR/><I>Furthermore, 'better' should also include 'most efficient.' (Posibly, I'm not sure on this.)</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not sure either. Depends on what factors the hypothetical being chooses to include in judging what's "better", I guess. For a being that supposedly has infinite time at its disposal, the amount of changes/actions taken to achieve some goal could be seen as irrelevant.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, Joe, for the hijack...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00481093782039815284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87698484617555561662007-08-01T13:08:00.000-04:002007-08-01T13:08:00.000-04:00OK, now that the thread has been sufficiently hija...OK, now that the thread has been sufficiently hijacked, let's get back to the main topic.<BR/><BR/>Prup, I disagree that I was too hard on theists here. I understand the "sunrise" and cat points you made. It'd require a stiff jackass to be insensitive enough to tell someone with a dead loved one, "No there is no heaven." when they are grieving, but I am talking about the average believer. You know they actually believe these things. <BR/><BR/>When they thank god for surviving a carwreck, they actually believe he spared them. Other atheists I know might throw the name "god" around in tragedies or during sex, but the average person who calls something a miracle does indeed believe in them. My family certainly does. I can't see why you would even dispute this point. <BR/><BR/>So many have no problems believing that god destroys one home in a tornado, killing a woman inside, just to show some neighbors that they should fear him. This is classical theistic thinking. <BR/><BR/>(JH)Joe E. Holmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273702675019012966noreply@blogger.com