tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post5866820637637550285..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Quote of the Day, by Robert and Ken PulliamUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-82443448919671771912010-11-01T14:18:53.145-04:002010-11-01T14:18:53.145-04:00thank you for making my point.
Whether the event...thank you for making my point. <br /><br />Whether the events were experienced by you or I or whether, we just read about them happening to someone else, the result is the same. For "those who are called according to His purpose," He uses the events to draw them closer. For those who will reject His offer of salvation, the very same events are used to drive them down their chosen path to eternal destruction.<br />==========<br /><br />"That's like saying in order to get my wife to fall in love with me I have to beat the living crap out of her. I'm sorry, I just don't buy that."<br /><br />No, it's like saying that your wife fell in love with you after you showed her love and caring and compassion and mercy and grace after someone else had beat the crap out of her. And in the midst of your behaviour she would have said, "As terrible as these things were, if I hadn't gone through them, I would have never met psychman and come to know what real love is.Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16031421957711876422010-11-01T08:49:30.759-04:002010-11-01T08:49:30.759-04:00Thesauros:He used those experiences to draw me to ...Thesauros:<i>He used those experiences to draw me to Him. If I had been someone who would not respond positively He would have used those very same circumstances to drive me from Him.</i><br /><br />That's like saying in order to get my wife to fall in love with me I have to beat the living crap out of her. I'm sorry, I just don't buy that. <br /><br />I sympathize with your past traumatic experiences, but it is an insult to your dignity to think that there is some sadomasochostic sky bully sitting in the clouds watching you in anguish thinking "It's all going to be worth it for him. It will build his character." Surely you have more self respect than to be constantly grovelling, thanking and praising such a vicious pig for subjecting you to those experiences.<br /><br />If such a tyrant ever existed, I would actively attempt to thwart his purposes, and consider my life to have had meaning in doing so. Because that being would be absolutely unequivocally evil by the definition of any person.mojo.rhythmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14901306439675127615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-73029857084145213192010-10-22T16:35:32.952-04:002010-10-22T16:35:32.952-04:00@thesauros,
"Since you won't answer I...@thesauros,<br /><br />"Since you won't answer I'll just say that all I'm trying to do is warn you to not turn your back on this offer of salvation. <br /><br />Good luck on your journey Walter. I really do wish you the best."<br /><br />Good luck on your journey???!!!<br /><br />Seriously, good LUCK! <br /> <br />So does God have a big roullette wheel up in heaven there Thesauros on which he bases his decision on whose heart he hardens and whose he doesn't?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07381078941305644235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8703761206646058452010-10-11T00:04:54.272-04:002010-10-11T00:04:54.272-04:00Well, I don't know why you'd avoid a simpl...Well, I don't know why you'd avoid a simple question that could apply equally to a secular situation or one dealing with religion. <br /><br />Since you won't answer I'll just say that all I'm trying to do is warn you to not turn your back on this offer of salvation. <br /><br />Good luck on your journey Walter. I really do wish you the best.Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6460469726678601642010-10-10T21:27:03.610-04:002010-10-10T21:27:03.610-04:00Thesauros, I notice you are quoting from Hebrews 6...Thesauros, I notice you are quoting from Hebrews 6. First of what kind of horrible translation are you using?!?!? That is probably the worst I've seen. Even many evangelical/fundamentalist Christians would agree with me that your choice of "translation" is really bad. Is that "translation" the message, by any chance?<br /><br />Also, according to Hebrews 6, we can't be brought back to repentance, so why are you here wasting time? If you really believe that verse, you wouldn't be wasting time here. I suspect you might just be here to throw stone and rile people up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-73686971034294196162010-10-10T16:37:01.080-04:002010-10-10T16:37:01.080-04:00That's not what I asked Walter. I feel that I&...<i>That's not what I asked Walter. I feel that I'm trying to warn and you feel that I'm issuing threats.</i><br /><br />And I told you that I would listen when you provided some ironclad evidence that I will be in danger if I do not heed your friendly warning.<br /><br />The problem is that you have no real evidence for anything that you believe in. You have made the mistake of believing that a collection of ancient human texts is actually some kind of infallible communication from the creator of the universe--it isn't. The books of the bible are the products humans just as fallible as you or I. All you can do is appeal to faith in lieu of actual evidence. And Christian faith is no more compelling to me than Muslim or Hindu faith would be to you.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-50929281912332877412010-10-10T15:55:04.674-04:002010-10-10T15:55:04.674-04:00That's not what I asked Walter. I feel that I&...That's not what I asked Walter. I feel that I'm trying to warn and you feel that I'm issuing threats. <br /><br />What's the difference to you?Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32912569226095597652010-10-10T15:05:53.135-04:002010-10-10T15:05:53.135-04:00@thesauros
[W]hen you KNOW that Jesus lives you c...@thesauros<br /><br /><i>[W]hen you KNOW that Jesus lives you can’t move to the position that you hold. Like I said, it would be like coming to a point where I think that my wife / family is just an illusion. Not possible. That's why you and I did not believe in a similar manner.</i><br /><br />It would in no way be like thinking your wife and family are an illusion. Unless you’re telling us when you sit down to dinner Jesus pulls up a seat rubbing his hands together in anticipation. Does he prefer potatoes or stuffing? When you tuck your kids in at night, Jesus is in the bottom bunk, waiting for a kiss on the cheek? How does Jesus make love? I’m betting he’s a power bottom.<br /><br />The point being…wait for it…wait for it…<b><i>evidence</i></b>. Specifically, you have none. At least none – meaning, literally none -- of the kind that proves the existence of your wife and children.<br /><br />Rather, you have a voice in your head. Instead of even entertaining the notion that maybe that’s all it is, like any good psychotic you determine it’s unshakeable, eternal proof that Jesus has saved you.<br /><br />No, you and Walter did not believe in a similar manner at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-9536444692405019612010-10-10T14:51:57.481-04:002010-10-10T14:51:57.481-04:00I’d asked someone awhile back, perhaps it was you,...<i><br />I’d asked someone awhile back, perhaps it was you, and never got an answer. What do you think is the difference between a threat and a warning?</i><br /><br />I tell you what; prove that hell exists and I will listen to your warning. Don't bother with quoting proof texts from the bible because verses written by ancient humans proves nothing. Show me some hard evidence, or spare me your warning.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69766105615315276642010-10-10T14:41:48.700-04:002010-10-10T14:41:48.700-04:00"You like the emotional comfort provided by t..."You like the emotional comfort provided by the dogmas of your church.”<br /><br />I like the emotional comfort provided by my Lord and Saviour. I KNOW that my redeemer lives. And that is the difference between us Walter. When you KNOW someone exists you cannot walk away and say He doesn’t exist. <br /><br />You CAN say that you don’t want to serve Him or obey Him or worship Him but when you KNOW that Jesus lives you can’t move to the position that you hold. Like I said, it would be like coming to a point where I think that my wife / family is just an illusion. Not possible.<br /><br />That's why you and I did not believe in a similar manner.<br />======================<br /><br />“going through life without feeling that they have all the answers.”<br /><br />There are lots of answers that I don’t have, even one’s - especially one’s - dealing with Creator God, but the nature of His existence is not one of them.<br />==============<br /><br />I’d asked someone awhile back, perhaps it was you, and never got an answer. What do you think is the difference between a threat and a warning?Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23100382858068534482010-10-10T12:35:16.847-04:002010-10-10T12:35:16.847-04:00Thesauros says...
I’m simply not willing to live ...Thesauros says...<br /><i><br />I’m simply not willing to live in a state of perpetual uncertainty as atheists seem to crave. </i><br /><br />This sentence right there sums up the reason that some people cling to religious dogmas. You like the emotional comfort provided by the dogmas of your church. Conservative churches peddle a false sense of certainty that appeals to the mindset of certain individuals who cannot tolerate going through life without feeling that they have all the answers.<br /><br />All Thesauros is doing is an online altar call where he proclaims that we had better accept the "free offer" or we will be sorry. I don't mind engaging in a discussion, but I am not interested in mind-numbing threats of hell from an internet preacher. I have probably 50 or more churches within a ten mile radius of my house, and I'll go to one of them if I wish to be bored silly by some fire-and-brimstone nonsense.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85079632118183570692010-10-10T11:57:47.013-04:002010-10-10T11:57:47.013-04:00"Thesauros, you are the type person who just ..."Thesauros, you are the type person who just KNOWS that the creator of the universe is pleased with you.”<br /><br />Walter, you say “self-righteous” as though it means I think that I’m better than you. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not but this I know.<br /><br />. You’d have to be a pretty awful human being to be worse than I am<br /><br />. My Creator’s level of being “pleased” with me has nothing to do with my level of goodness<br /><br />We are told in His Word that because of my faith in Jesus as my Saviour, Father God loves me as His own. You make it sound like that’s a bad thing. You make it sound like I shouldn't enjoy that kind of relationship. I happen to think that it’s a wonderful thing and I’m going to ride this all the way to the end.<br />===============<br /><br />“you and your church have adopted some silly dogma that a True Christian ® is always saved and never waivers from the faith.”<br /><br />That is simply not true. I gave you a couple verses straight out of 1st John. If you don' like it take it up with Jesus. <br /><br />When I visit with people from our congregation, conversations regarding struggles with faith / doubt etc. are common. Leaving when disappointment comes is not common. Good grief man, the disciples lived with Jesus and struggled with doubt and misunderstanding Him even after He rose into heaven. It is the Holy Spirit Who set them straight and Who does the same for us. <br /><br />The difference between you and I or John Loftus and other true believers is that you had an intellectual knowledge of Jesus versus a relational knowledge of Jesus. The former fades while the latter can never fade.<br /><br />@ Mike - Pride would be if I was saying that any of the good in my life or even my salvation came from me. I’m sorry if my confidence or joy or peace comes across as bragging as though I had anything to do with it. <br /><br />I’m simply not willing to live in a state of perpetual uncertainty as atheists seem to crave. <br /><br />As far as witnessing goes, who would there be to witness to? All of John's followers are obviously determined to go down the path that you’re on. <br /><br />“Once people have seen the light, gotten a taste of heaven and been part of the work of the Holy Spirit, once they've personally experienced the sheer goodness of God's Word and the powers breaking in on us — if then they turn their backs on it, washing their hands of the whole thing, well, they can't start over as if nothing happened. That's impossible. Why, they've re-crucified Jesus! They've repudiated Him in public! Parched ground that soaks up the rain and then produces an abundance of carrots and corn for its gardener gets God's "Well done!" But if it produces weeds and thistles, it's more likely to get cussed out. Fields like that are burned, not harvested.” <br />Hebrews 6:4-8Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52668945388935948662010-10-10T11:22:16.082-04:002010-10-10T11:22:16.082-04:00Thesauros' is intent on holding to the premise...Thesauros' is intent on holding to the premise that a true believer absolutely cannot lose their salvation. Therefore, no evidence to the contrary, no matter how convincing, will matter to him. So, it's pointless to attempt to engage in any kind of meaningful dialogue/debate with him.<br /><br />By the way, Thesauros, isn't one of the characteristics of a follower of Christ, humility? I don't see that from you. I just see boasting and smug self-righteousness. Statistics show that Christians are no different from the rest of the "world" and even worse. I guess you just confirm that. <br /><br />You claim to be witnessing for Christ, but your arrogance and antagonism just turns me off to your message even more. Have a nice day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90388904980805166362010-10-09T23:09:44.907-04:002010-10-09T23:09:44.907-04:00Thesauros, you are the type person who just KNOWS ...Thesauros, you are the type person who just KNOWS that the creator of the universe is pleased with you. That is smug self-righteousness. Since I no longer wear the label of Christian, I am not real bothered whether YOU feel that I never was one to begin with. <br /><br />The only reason that you feel justified in pronouncing judgments about the sincerity of other people's former beliefs is because you and your church have adopted some silly dogma that a True Christian ® is always saved and never waivers from the faith. By that definition I guess the only true Christian is a dead one, since a living one might actually develop a doubt or two sometime in the future.<br /><br />It is probably a waste of time to spill any more ink in conversation with you. Enjoy your fables, O pious one!.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69864308952435253312010-10-09T22:39:39.470-04:002010-10-09T22:39:39.470-04:00Let's be realistic Walter. You say that Jesus ...Let's be realistic Walter. You say that Jesus doesn't exist, that He is not your Lord, He is not your Saviour. Going by what Jesus taught, not what I say or what I think but what Jesus taught, you will not have any part of the salvation that He offers. <br /><br />How is that smug? It's just reality. I wish it was otherwise but only you can't change the outcome. Right? There is nothing that I can do to rescue you or convince you to change the eternity that looms before you. If I could do something about it, I would. But you're a grown man. You make you're own choices.<br /><br />And as far as self-righteous goes, like I told some other guy, becoming a Christian involves admitting that I have no righteousness apart from what Jesus gives to me so the term simply does not apply. <br /><br />An atheist however, someone who says, "I don't need God in order to be good," now THAT person fits the term, self-righteous.Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-82299672787775874732010-10-09T22:12:29.728-04:002010-10-09T22:12:29.728-04:00By Jesus’ definition of “believing in Him" al...<i>By Jesus’ definition of “believing in Him" all of you were pretenders, frauds - the kind who, had you died while still in your hypocrite phase would have heard Jesus say, “Get away from Me. I never knew you.”</i><br /><br />I find your comments to be smug and self-righteous. Oh well :(Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46656861929289081812010-10-09T21:41:19.440-04:002010-10-09T21:41:19.440-04:00Walter:
I hope these questions / comments were rhe...Walter:<br />I hope these questions / comments were rhetorical in nature. <br /><br />You are free to believe whatever you want Walter. This exchange began when you said that you and John Loftus and others who frequent this blog had a relationship with Jesus that was the same as mine is now and I say, “Not even close.” <br /><br />By Jesus’ definition of “believing in Him" all of you were pretenders, frauds - the kind who, had you died while still in your hypocrite phase would have heard Jesus say, “Get away from Me. I never knew you.”Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32946400845155358812010-10-09T19:30:08.428-04:002010-10-09T19:30:08.428-04:00Part 3...
As far as rejecting the character portr...Part 3...<br /><br />As far as rejecting the character portrayed in the bible, I do reject that character on moral grounds. What point is there to an eternal hell other than eternal vengeance? And why should I praise a deity that exacts vengeance on its children simply for not believing in its existence? <br /><br />If one single soul suffers the fate of eternal damnation, then the price of creation is too great. Why would a perfect deity even need to create a group of vastly inferior beings just so they can stand around for eternity telling that deity how great it is? Is the Christian God a narcissist?Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13214281221025670082010-10-09T19:18:37.022-04:002010-10-09T19:18:37.022-04:00Part 2...
Even if I grant for the sake of the dis...Part 2...<br /><br />Even if I grant for the sake of the discussion that nature is sufficient evidence for there being a creator-deity, then at best we would arrive at the conclusion that deism or pantheism is a viable option. This still would not lead a person to believe that the Christian mythology represents the story of the creator-god. The bible is a collection of ancient human documents that regale us with anecdotes of amazing miracles which those of us living today did not have the good fortune to witness for ourselves. If I tell you that I can flap my arms and fly for short distances, how much proof would you require to believe me?Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55392125599328702052010-10-09T19:04:38.138-04:002010-10-09T19:04:38.138-04:00Because God knew that I would respond positively t...<i>Because God knew that I would respond positively to His invitation He used those experiences to draw me to Him. If I had been someone who would not respond positively He would have used those very same circumstances to drive me from Him</i><br /><br />Ahh, I see that you are a Molinist.<br /><br />First off, let me state that there is a big difference in a person rejecting a god and simply not believing in the existence of said deity. Do you reject Thor, or do you just not believe that Thor exists? I have stated at another blog that any deity that will only reveal itself in the ancient past to a small number of select prophets or disciples, should not be surprised nor upset that large numbers of people today simply don't believe in "him" due to insufficient evidence. I am under no obligation to believe in an anecdotal tale of a divine revelation that I did not personally receive. If God spoke directly to you, then you can say that you received a revelation. If you then pass the message to me, all I have received is an anecdote. It is not undue skepticism to doubt another man's claims of divine revelation.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87376438355656267762010-10-09T17:43:09.366-04:002010-10-09T17:43:09.366-04:00“How do you define a true Christian?”
A Christian...“How do you define a true Christian?”<br /><br />A Christian is someone who believes and acts upon what Jesus Christ taught about Himself, about life, death, sin, forgiveness and the resurrection (His and ours). Jesus taught that a follower of His is a person who depends upon Jesus alone for salvation. He taught that a Christian is someone who depends upon what Jesus calls His Word (The Bible), and upon His Spirit for guidance and strength in daily living.<br />=========<br /><br />“Let me ask you: are you reformed/ Calvinist?”<br /><br />I wouldn’t say so. I believe that God knows and has known from before the founding of the universe who would and would not accept His offer of grace and He interacts with us within the context. But that is not the same as creating this one for heaven and that one for hell. Knowing in advance and still bringing those people into reality may seem like that's what's happening but to me, it's not the same thing.<br />==========<br /><br />“Do you currently believe that when it comes to salvation, that the individual must make the first move towards God? Or is God the one who is completely controlling the salvation process from start to finish?<br /><br />I think that He makes the fist move in the sense that we have before us the universe for which there is no natural explanation. <br /><br />How we respond to that “evidence” (in the fullest sense of the word) determines whether He will reveal more of Himself to us or withhold more evidence of Himself from us. I agree with the line, “God has given us just enough evidence of Himself so that those who are looking for Him will find Him and those who aren’t looking for Him will not be able to find Him accidentally.” <br />=============<br /><br />“Is He completely controlling?”<br /><br />Let me put it this way. I’ve experienced childhood sexual abuse / physical abuse / 46 years of crippling arthritis / the death of our only biological child and a host of other challenges. I don’t believe that He created those things to happen to me. On the other hand I believe that He knew they would happen to me. (cause or allow - the result is the same) <br /><br />Because God knew that I would respond positively to His invitation He used those experiences to draw me to Him. If I had been someone who would not respond positively He would have used those very same circumstances to drive me from Him.<br /><br />Any control that He exercises is based on His foreknowledge of what we would choose regarding a relationship with Him.Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-73812386562150861702010-10-09T17:42:34.892-04:002010-10-09T17:42:34.892-04:00Walter:
"If you are asking if I had some warm...Walter:<br />"If you are asking if I had some warm, fuzzy feeling whenever I prayed or worshiped, the answer is no, I never did."<br /> <br />No, that’s not what I’m asking. I think that it was you who said that you and the other guys here “believed” as much as I do. <br /><br />I maintain that people such as yourself had “beliefs in beliefs about God / Jesus.” And when those beliefs turned out to not be true you, instead of concluding that your beliefs were wrong, you concluded that God did not exist. <br /><br />For example, I’ve had atheists ask:<br />. “If God existed, why did my dad die when I was a little kid?” Wrong Belief - God will protect me from bad things happening to me.<br /><br />. “If God existed, why was I able to beat the Christian kids in track?” <br />Wrong Belief - God will do good things for those who believe in him.<br /><br />Many people lose their belief when they understand that the buck stops with God regarding all the suffering in the world. <br />Wrong Belief - A loving God would never allow this to happen. <br /><br />All of these were beliefs about beliefs about God. The only connection with God was an intllectual and / or emotional connection. It allows you to recite a creed but it doesn't go beyond that. That kind of a relationship is doomed to end in non belief.<br />========<br /><br />“My church never pushed the idea of mystical experience as proof of election.”<br /><br />Me too and if it did I’d leave. Feelings lie and they lie frequently. When I asked how you KNEW that Jesus was alive and involved in your life, it’s like asking, how do you know that the stuff that you know is real - is real? I’ve been told by atheists that one day I too will not believe in Jesus and to me, that’s like saying one day I'll come to think that my wife is just an illusion.<br />============Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7959229640192843452010-10-09T15:40:01.586-04:002010-10-09T15:40:01.586-04:00Would you be willing to tell me how you knew that ...<i><br />Would you be willing to tell me how you knew that Jesus was alive and involved in your life?</i><br /><br />If you are asking if I had some warm, fuzzy feeling whenever I prayed or worshiped, the answer is no, I never did. My church never pushed the idea of mystical experience as proof of election. I believed that Jesus was the incarnation of God that died for my sins and rose again. How do you define a true Christian?<br /><br />Let me ask you: are you reformed/ Calvinist? Do you currently believe that when it comes to salvation, that the individual must make the first move towards God? Or is God the one who is completely controlling the salvation process from start to finish?<br /><br />When debating a Christian it helps to know exactly what sectarian beliefs they hold.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32198501947611401052010-10-09T12:09:04.697-04:002010-10-09T12:09:04.697-04:00@ Walter - “People like Thesaurus can't accept...@ Walter - “People like Thesaurus can't accept that we once believed as passionately as he now does.”<br /><br />Well, Walter, I believe that the difference is in our interpretation of the word “believe.” <br /><br />Would you be willing to tell me how you knew that Jesus was alive and involved in your life?Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91666893272651804072010-10-09T12:00:37.367-04:002010-10-09T12:00:37.367-04:00@Mike
I understand, and I think it’s important to...@Mike<br /><br />I understand, and I think it’s important to keep hammering the point home, too. But the deluded are immune. They either simply assert that anybody who has a different interpretation is wrong, or squeeze their eyes shut and say “I don’t see any contradiction.” They have exactly as much knowledge of the Bible as they <b><i>want</i></b> to have. Namely, just enough to convince themselves that everybody else is wrong and there are no contradictions. I’m sure I’ll argue contradictions again in the future, but this time I just don’t feel like beating my head against the wall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com