tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post5604863694765244701..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Do Fish Feel Pain?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86506898500342600302010-05-12T10:40:10.871-04:002010-05-12T10:40:10.871-04:00What about infant children that die? Do they exper...<em>What about infant children that die? Do they experience moral outrage at their pain or existential anxiety about impending death? Or the severely retarded?</em><br /><br />They are part of a species that recognizes their worth or is capable of doing so. OF course you may suggest that many people also recognize equal worth in animals, and that kind of moral and existential confusion that compares the worth of an animal to an infant or mentally retarded person is exactly to be expected when we deny God.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-2543234098153975682010-05-09T20:13:30.437-04:002010-05-09T20:13:30.437-04:00Cole.
Nevermind....lolCole.<br /><br />Nevermind....lolshanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-44037591443220725402010-05-09T18:33:38.617-04:002010-05-09T18:33:38.617-04:00Shane,
I'm not sure I understand what you are...Shane,<br /><br />I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. God has negative properties such as infinity but He's also loving. Being loving is a positive property. There's negative knowledge and positive knowledge. I don't worship an unknowable X but I worship God as He is revealed in Christ and His teachings. I also don't think I know everything about God and I never will because He is infinite and I'm finite. All I know is what God has chosen to reveal to me. I will always be learning.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29486696215291806122010-05-09T16:03:16.023-04:002010-05-09T16:03:16.023-04:00MMM.
I think you didn't quite understand my l...MMM.<br /><br />I think you didn't quite understand my last two posts.<br /><br />I said that on one hand christians say God is all powerful, all knowing, etc.... in this way christians say God has limitless attributes.<br /><br />On the other hand, they say some of Gods attributes are mercy, kindess, patients, etc....<br /><br />These are two incompatible theologies.<br />I gave examples such as, if mercy is one of Gods limitless characteristics, then God lacks non-mercy as a characteristic.<br /> Basically if God Has characteristic- A- then He lacks characteristic- not A-.<br /><br />In this way God does not possess all power because an all powerful being would possess both characteristic- A - and- not A.<br /><br />All im saying about christians not knowing God is that, if God is an incomprehensible being to us, then He cannot be known by us!<br />We cannot percieve who or what God is.<br /><br />Therefore, since no christian can define the being of God, then no christian can know who are what they actually believe in and worship!!!!<br />You christians worship an unknowable.shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10373807006929563752010-05-09T11:35:45.586-04:002010-05-09T11:35:45.586-04:00Shane also wrote this about "most Christians&...Shane also wrote this about "most Christians", <br /><br />""THEY DO NOT KNOW GOD"!<br /><br />Well in some regards, I would have to agree, being one that is in the process of getting acquainted with God, but Jesus already acknowledges and gives allowances for variations in faith maturation/levels of knowledge/friendship. That is by His grace. He says He has just a few "friends" and that there are those who know what He is up to but<br />not everyone is God's best friend or has to know exactly what He's up to - that isn't a demand or expectation that He sets. <br /><br />I know that being enlightened about the difference between Godly and worldly authority/power has given me the ability to be set free from being impressed or subjugated by egotistical persons and pursuits, including morally conceited religious ppl. Jesus is setting me free from appeasing those who are building their own ego as a coping mechanism for life's hurts. So while I've been hurt by these types, I am also beginning to feel sad on their behalf too. <br /><br />bye,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-82996038334437828992010-05-09T11:21:28.419-04:002010-05-09T11:21:28.419-04:00Shane wrote, "In order for God to be all powe...Shane wrote, "In order for God to be all powerful He must possess all goodness as well as all evil."<br /><br />See, here is where God varies from us -- in our terms and definition of "goodness". <br /><br />Scripturally speaking, in the parable of the widow approaching an uncaring judge for justice against those who mistreated her, Jesus affirms that God cares about justice as we do, but He also asks, "When I return, who will have faith?". So pursuing justice is natural, but faith is a divinely inspired goal in which both the victim and the victimizer are set free from their roles. That is the ultimate justice because most victimizers began as victims themselves.<br /><br />So it is that our definition of "good" is often superficial and limited.<br /><br />ttyl,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8141475590135267032010-05-09T11:04:10.441-04:002010-05-09T11:04:10.441-04:00Cole.
Like I said, if your telling me there are c...Cole.<br /><br />Like I said, if your telling me there are characteristics of God that we can know and identify with, then at least some of His ways are not higher then ours!<br /><br />If you are to be merciful like He is, then His mercy is no higher then human mercy.<br />If you are to be patient like He is patient, then His patients is no higher then human patients.<br /><br />I see you did not respond to my comments of the contradictory nature of God according to christianity.<br /><br />In order for God to be all powerful He must possess all goodness as well as all evil.<br />Yet the bible says there is no evil in God?<br />Therefore God must be a limited being (according to the bible).<br /><br />If God is to be all powerful then He cannot be morally perfect because He must possess all evil as well.<br />If God is to be morally perfect, then He cannot be all powerful!shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16192805583997350052010-05-09T10:28:25.458-04:002010-05-09T10:28:25.458-04:00Shane,
There are ways I'm to be like God and ...Shane,<br /><br />There are ways I'm to be like God and ways I'm not. I can't be like God in every way. Yes, He's eternal and His mercy endures forever. I don't want to repeat myself so go back and reread what I said above about ways I'm to be like God and ways I'm not like God. He has revealed some things but some things He hasn't. The secret things belong to the Lord. Christ gave us an example on how we are to live in His humility and holiness. By removing God's wrath from my vision at the cross I can now gaze at and behold His spiritual beauty.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-73004672056191315892010-05-09T10:20:38.831-04:002010-05-09T10:20:38.831-04:00Cole.
As far as your experiences with Christ I ca...Cole.<br /><br />As far as your experiences with Christ I cannot go into much discussion about that since these are not empirical things I can discuss!<br /><br />But I can say that your own personnal experiences as you describe them is something I did not experience as a believer, and they are no more a witness to the truthfulness of christianity then someone telling me they seen a leprachuan one time!shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22477570263990690812010-05-09T10:16:07.833-04:002010-05-09T10:16:07.833-04:00Cole.
You see this is where your theology runs in...Cole.<br /><br />You see this is where your theology runs into contradiction, your saying God is all powerful, all knowing, eternal....etc.<br />Here you are discribing God as having limitless attributes!<br /><br />Yet, you say God is merciful, patient, kind, humble!<br />Here you are limiting Gods power<br /><br />By saying God has the characteristic of mercy, you are in effect saying God lacks the characteristic of non-mercy.<br /><br />Or if you say, God can be characterized as being kind, then you are saying in effect, God cannot be characterized as unkind!<br /><br />One way or another you are ascribing limited attributes to a suppossed limitless being, this is a contradiction in terms!<br /><br />To say God is all powerful, but also say He lacks the characteristics of non-mercy and unkindness, then you are wrong, because an all powerful being would consist in having all abilities!<br /><br />Also, you said Gods ways are higher then ours?<br />So are you saying that Gods mercy is a mercy with which we cannot identify?<br /><br />Is Gods patients a patients with which we are not aquianted with?<br />Is Gods kindness a kindness which we are not accustomed to?<br /><br />If so, then you are nowhere closer to knowing your God then you were when i sent the last post!shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55539451058477185182010-05-09T09:45:26.184-04:002010-05-09T09:45:26.184-04:00Hey Shane,
I already gave you a few attributes ab...Hey Shane,<br /><br />I already gave you a few attributes above. God is eternal and exists necessarily. He's morally perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful, merciful, patient, kind, humble, whose ways are infinitely higher than our ways. This is just to name a few.<br /><br />What is it like to meet Jesus?<br /><br />Well, For me conversion is a healing of the affection. It is when I develope a loving attraction to the beauties of Christ in His humility and holiness. Just as He put God first in His life I do the same. I have a throbbing, yearning, desire for Christ. It is erotic. It's a powerful desire for union with Christ. It comes in different degrees and intensity. It's like a romantic attraction to holiness. A passionate desire for union with Christ. It's like when I was in love with my first love and I gazed upon her beauty and it intoxicated me with a warm love. I want to be absorbed with Christ. To become part of Him and to have His beauty become part of my soul. It's an erotic love for holiness that percieves, desires, and enjoys union with Someone of supreme value and worth. I want to drink in this spiritual beauty and treasure it and enjoy it forever. I love it more than anything. To put it another way, I worship it.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65307363154454722262010-05-09T08:59:17.620-04:002010-05-09T08:59:17.620-04:00Cole.
Based on what you said here can you define ...Cole.<br /><br />Based on what you said here can you define your God?<br /><br />If you cant define Him then you obviously dont know what you believe in!<br /><br />What exactly does it mean to say that "God is not finite or contingent"?....Can you define a being like that?<br />Can you tell me what it would be like to meet him?<br /><br />You see, when it comes down to christians retreating into their incomprehensible God, they themselves must admit that "THEY DO NOT KNOW GOD"!<br /><br />At this point we can safely and justly disregard all you christian claims to truths, tenents, and understandings!shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10395523816835883902010-05-08T22:27:05.516-04:002010-05-08T22:27:05.516-04:00Shane,
I would say every finite and contingent th...Shane,<br /><br />I would say every finite and contingent thing has to come from somewhere. God's not finite and contingent like our universe and therefore requires no outside source to explain His existence. He's the great I AM.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7258438137065545202010-05-08T22:19:16.864-04:002010-05-08T22:19:16.864-04:00I am convinced that the Cardinal (that feeds at my...I am convinced that the Cardinal (that feeds at my bird feed everyday) created the world. Plus, I have prayed to this bird for money and happiness, and (guess what) he gave me my wishes.<br /><br />This Cardinal creating the world and the universe makes perfect sense to me as no can prove this bird didn’t do it.<br /><br />Anyway, if you think about it, this Cardinal has never been proven not to have created everything. And, while religion talks about some unproven and unseen mystical God who exist only by faith, I can see this real Cardinal and he has actually talked with me personally!Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25382808541649000282010-05-08T22:11:36.936-04:002010-05-08T22:11:36.936-04:00Cole.
Ya I figured that was going to be your answ...Cole.<br /><br />Ya I figured that was going to be your answer, its one of the more brilliant christian concepts.<br /><br />The only problem is that christains continuously say that "everything has to come from somewhere" and "something cant come from nothing"<br />which kinda contradicts this theology.shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49073221413542764842010-05-08T21:50:47.804-04:002010-05-08T21:50:47.804-04:00Shane,
The way I see it is that God is eternal an...Shane,<br /><br />The way I see it is that God is eternal and exists necessarily and therefore doesn't require an outside source to explain His existence. HE IS. I AM.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91367823370958111212010-05-08T20:53:40.594-04:002010-05-08T20:53:40.594-04:00Cole.
I dont no, I cant say much about whether th...Cole.<br /><br />I dont no, I cant say much about whether there is a creating force of some kind since I have no actual standing on this subject, but I dont see someone rising from the dead and performing miracles in touch with any known reality.<br /><br />But if your right and Theism is the best answer, then it only raises the question- "what is the best answer for Gods existence"?<br /><br />Surely if God best explains the existence of living systems and the origin of the universe, then God being even more complex must need an origin?<br />If the universe cannot exist on its own with all its fine tuning, and apparent design, then how can God exist independent of a higher source?<br /><br />This is not a challenging question but I wondered what your take on it was?shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-28385701183973891092010-05-08T19:52:24.192-04:002010-05-08T19:52:24.192-04:00Shane,
I already dealt with suffering. Even if I ...Shane,<br /><br />I already dealt with suffering. Even if I haven't I think when looking at the TOTAL evidence Theism is SOMEWHAT more likely than not to be true. This doesn't make it a fact. I think the life and teachings of Christ are more in line with reality than other religions. I can't decide between the denominations within Christianity though. I no longer belong to a denomination.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-28040349839063471432010-05-08T19:38:46.102-04:002010-05-08T19:38:46.102-04:00Cole.
If God is the best answer, then when we con...Cole.<br /><br />If God is the best answer, then when we consider the amount of suffering and cruelty there is in this existence, what should a person construe from that fact when considering the character of God?<br /><br />Also, what constitutes the biblical God the best available answer rather then the Islamic God, Hindu God, or any religions God?<br /><br />Also, if the biblical God were the best answer, then what constitutes as the truthful understanding of the biblical God when considering Judaism, christianity, mormonism, Jehovah's witness, and so on?shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62116159936180786542010-05-08T18:08:22.096-04:002010-05-08T18:08:22.096-04:00Shane,
I think God is the best (available) explan...Shane,<br /><br />I think God is the best (available) explanation for alot of things in living systems as well as the origin of the universe, the fine-tuning of the universe, the origins of life and a whole host of other things. But being the best (available) explanation isn't sufficient to render it a fact. Future discoveries could overthrow it. Until then I will continue on in believing.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-33636471806360133272010-05-08T16:57:49.786-04:002010-05-08T16:57:49.786-04:00Pain is a normal universal physical strait.
Any...Pain is a normal universal physical strait. <br /> <br />Anyone who has ever used a hornet or warps spray (such as <i>Raid</i>) on their nests and stayed around to watch can testify than these insects are not facing a normal death from old age, <b>but are writhing in severe pain as they die with their six legs griping each other, their mouths often biting their legs and finally dying with their stingers out trying to sting a chemical poison causing their horrible pain!<br /><br />By comparison, the ONLY things that do not feel pain are all the gods of religion created by the human mind. </b>Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47431848552682513012010-05-08T14:38:10.428-04:002010-05-08T14:38:10.428-04:00Cole.
Thats right it doesn't explain everythi...Cole.<br /><br />Thats right it doesn't explain everything.<br />I for one am agnostic to the concept of there being a creator or creating force of some kind, and I dont think any of our scientific discoveries answer some of the biggest questions, but I also dont think any religious belief we possess answers any those questions logically or intelligently.<br /><br />If anything I believe religion holds us back and impedes our finding answers.<br /><br />I know you dont think christianity is man made, but there is absolutely nothing in the bible whether its the information contained in it, how it was written, when it was written, the claims it makes, nothing that compels me to believe it is of divine origin rather then the minds of simple men!shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29991562528408072332010-05-08T14:02:40.306-04:002010-05-08T14:02:40.306-04:00Hey Shane,
There's alot about evolution that ...Hey Shane,<br /><br />There's alot about evolution that we don't know. I dont think it can be all explained by natural selection. I go along with the agnostic biologist Michael Denton in his book "Nature's Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe" that evolution is being guided by some "unknown mechinisms"<br /><br />Not that natural selection doesn't take place but it CERTAINLY doesn't explain everything.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87980274169669644872010-05-08T13:31:01.596-04:002010-05-08T13:31:01.596-04:00Cole and MMM.
Cole you said that "it is a bi...Cole and MMM.<br /><br />Cole you said that "it is a bit of common sense that if God is infinite and you are not, that you would not be able to fully grasp His being"?<br /><br />Yes, but it also common sense that if the biblical God does not exist and that is why no substantial evidence can be given of His existence, then anyone can just say "God is infinite this or infinite that", and making the biblical God impossible to refute because no one even knows what their talking about at this point! <br /><br />This happens when the christian is confronted with a dilemma they cannot get around, their final argument is- "God is incomprehensible"- thus admitting they dont even no what they actually believe in themselves!<br /><br />MMM.<br />You said " There is a difference between assigning blame and acknowledging what exists"?<br /><br /> You wrote this as if the existence of demons is FACTUAL. Can you please tell me how it is FACT that demons exist?<br /><br />Also, I find it almost laughable when believers tell us that God is the GREAT DESIGNER of all life as well as the universe, but then they exempt their God from all blame and all evils that exist!<br /><br />You guys rule out natural causes and natural selection and say "nope, there is a creator".<br />But then when we see the savagery that exists in the so called creation, animals killing eachother for pure survival, you christains deny that the GREAT CREATOR had anything to do with it, instead you imagine unseen demonic forces as the cause or blame mankind.<br /><br />And according to the bible old and new, we are commanded to appease God or suffer the consequences!<br />We are commanded to hate our own earthly lives or else.<br />-commanded to turn our backs on our loved one's if they believe something different.<br />-commanded to believe in something which God offers no realistic reason to believe in.<br />-commanded to be faithful unto death or else.<br />-even commanded to slaughter women and children at one time.<br />How can you say God doesn't have to be appeased????shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-48064850313882446132010-05-08T12:29:18.923-04:002010-05-08T12:29:18.923-04:00Hi Shane --- in reference to your comments to Cole...Hi Shane --- in reference to your comments to Cole, <br /><br />"You want to blame everything on so called demonic forces and devils."<br /><br />Shane, there is a difference between assigning blame and pure acknowledgement of what exists. God does not assign blame but acknowledges the truth of what we experience in the natural but also offers the truth of God. <br /><br />In reference to doctrines of demons and sons of hell -- these terms are used to reference those religious practices which alienate ppl from God --- that cause ppl to believe they must appease god in order to pacify his contempt and feelings of condemnation for humanity. Jesus acknowledged that such a being exists that causes ppl to relate to the divine in this manner, but it isn't God. <br /><br />False religious doctrines are created on this basis of this demanding, condemning creature that perpetuates pride and cruel behavior.<br /><br /><br />Take care,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.com