tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post5555378779088153215..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: The Wickedness of Praying for the SickUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger129125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89503757320507319712008-04-05T19:35:00.000-04:002008-04-05T19:35:00.000-04:00Knitterman: Jason, we are discussing (as you yours...<I>Knitterman: Jason, we are discussing (as you yourself are fond of reminding everyone else) prayer for the sick.<BR/><BR/>And I was responding to a incorrect conclusion you posted.</I><BR/><BR/>Obviously we disagree. Without results, prayer is pointless, especially if you are asking for something. <BR/><BR/><BR/><I>This is a requirement you're placing on prayer, not one that's based on Scripture.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, and I believe it is a rational and reasonable requirement.Raytheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13435606239407632628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90316744201464550612008-04-05T16:47:00.000-04:002008-04-05T16:47:00.000-04:00Knitterman: Jason, we are discussing (as you yours...Knitterman: <I>Jason, we are discussing (as you yourself are fond of reminding everyone else) prayer for the sick.</I><BR/><BR/>And I was responding to a incorrect conclusion you posted.<BR/><BR/><I>Prayer for the sick can only be said to "work" when there are demonstrable results not attributable to normal (i.e., not supernatural) means.</I><BR/><BR/>This is a requirement you're placing on prayer, not one that's based on Scripture.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75207896748537250722008-04-04T22:27:00.000-04:002008-04-04T22:27:00.000-04:00Jason: "David prayed to God many times, often to ...Jason: <I>"David prayed to God many times, often to simply tell God how happy he was. No request was made. How would this kind of prayer 'work' through 'results'?"</I> <BR/><BR/>Jason, we are discussing (as you yourself are fond of reminding everyone else) prayer for the sick. Prayer for the sick can only be said to "work" when there are demonstrable results not attributable to normal (i.e., not supernatural) means. At best I believe prayer for the sick is an exercise in self-hypnosis (for the one praying), at worst it's as wicked as offering an empty cup to one who is thirsty (for the sick person).Raytheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13435606239407632628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61744441940883670862008-04-04T00:48:00.000-04:002008-04-04T00:48:00.000-04:00Scott: So prayer "works" when you successfully req...Scott: <I>So prayer "works" when you successfully request assistance from God?</I><BR/><BR/>Jason: <I>Nope. And already answered previously.</I><BR/><BR/>But then you said... <BR/><BR/>Jason: <I>Praying for the sick or praying for anything ‘works’ every time God hears the prayer. </I><BR/><BR/>How are these different? If you fail at requesting assistance from God it did not "work" because God did not hear your request. <BR/><BR/>Both of which are the same and essentially B without the requirement for receiving what you requested. <BR/><BR/>Adjusting B to your requirement... <BR/><BR/>B. A prayer "works" anytime you pray for something. Regardless if it comes about or whether it was going to occur or not, it "works". The only requirement is that you ask. <BR/><BR/>But this still seems incomplete as you indicated that, at least on some occasions, you think that God intercedes and heals sick people who are prayed for which points to D. <BR/><BR/><I>Wonderful avoidance. Please note the topic. Is it wicked to communicate with God, asking Him to heal a sick person? </I><BR/><BR/>What do you hope will occur when you pray this prayer? God will merely listen and stop there? Or is the hope that God to actually take action in the physical world and heal the sick person?<BR/><BR/>Jason: <I>What’s evil with saying, “God, please heal my sick mother”?</I><BR/><BR/>Despite the fact that Christians are subject to illness, accidents and death in equal numbers to other religions and non-theists, you claim that God actually does have a concrete impact on reality. <BR/><BR/>You say... <BR/><BR/><I>If God is inactive and didn’t answer any of the prayers, can you prove someone in one of the prayer groups wouldn’t have died? Of course not. The only way we can ever know if prayer works is by rewinding the clock and doing everything over again without praying.</I><BR/><BR/>You're correct in that, by retreating to this position, we can't know the outcome of not praying for a single person in the group. Therefore prayer for the sick can "work" if you conceder only the individual prayed for. <BR/><BR/>But you've painted yourself into a corner. <BR/><BR/>If prayer works at the individual level, yet Christians do not benefit at the group level, the individual benefit received must come at the cost of someone else. The laws of mathematics demands it. <BR/><BR/>The other only option is to retreat again, by claiming that the frequency in which God decides to make an impact is so rare, it's indistinguishable from the random outcomes of nature. Or, you could make the naked assertion that it's really not a problem because God doesn't say it's a problem. However, In doing so, you might as well say God has his own version of math that prevents us from from noticing the impact he has on the world.<BR/><BR/>Again, if God does have an impact... <BR/><BR/>A. An omnipotent God, who offers and is claimed to have the power to heal the sick does not do so 99.99% of the time. How "good" must you be to win God's favor? Did those who's prayers were answered simply pray a few minutes longer than the others? <BR/><BR/>If only a select few are healed, there must be some concrete criteria that God uses to decide. If there was such a criteria don't you think God would let us know what it is? And, if there is no criteria, is God purposely not answering prayer to withhold evidence of his existence?<BR/><BR/>B. If the Christian (or any other) God interceded in any significant way, we'd notice. Follows of said God would be touting it as proof that their God was the only true God. Saying that we need to perform studies to come to this conclusion is disingenuous at best. <BR/><BR/>Since we do not observe this impact, the only way this could occur is if God fulfills prayers for the sick by trading outcomes with someone else.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3753750565412573992008-04-03T23:24:00.000-04:002008-04-03T23:24:00.000-04:00Knitterman,David prayed to God many times, often t...Knitterman,<BR/><BR/>David prayed to God many times, often to simply tell God how happy he was. No request was made. How would this kind of prayer 'work' through 'results'?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-73233804554366852972008-04-03T18:54:00.000-04:002008-04-03T18:54:00.000-04:00"Praying for the sick or praying for anything ‘wor...<I>"Praying for the sick or praying for anything ‘works’ every time God hears the prayer." </I> <BR/><BR/>I would say prayer "works" when there are results.Raytheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13435606239407632628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86255375604045601612008-04-03T17:38:00.000-04:002008-04-03T17:38:00.000-04:00Scott: So prayer "works" when you successfully req...Scott: <I>So prayer "works" when you successfully request assistance from God?</I><BR/><BR/>Nope. And already answered previously.<BR/><BR/><I>What kind of assistance are you requesting? How is your request being fulfilled?</I><BR/><BR/>In case you missed the context, here it is again. Without praying for the sick, one isn't requesting the assistance of God. In praying for the sick, one is requesting the assistance of God. Is a request for assistance wicked?<BR/><BR/><I>These are cases where, simply asking for assistance appears to be wrong or even wicked - which is why I'm trying to clarify what occurs if praying for the sick "works".</I><BR/><BR/>Wonderful avoidance. Please note the topic. Is it wicked to communicate with God, asking Him to heal a sick person? What’s evil with saying, “God, please heal my sick mother”?<BR/><BR/><I>How does prayer "work" in the context of praying for the sick?</I><BR/><BR/>Praying for the sick or praying for anything ‘works’ every time God hears the prayer. Pray ‘works’ as much as speaking ‘works’. If you’d like to know in what instances God will not listen to a prayer, the answers can be found in Scripture.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63070043660819644132008-04-03T15:00:00.000-04:002008-04-03T15:00:00.000-04:00the deleted post above was inadvertently submitte...the deleted post above was inadvertently submitted while I was logged in under an third-party account for another Google service. I've re-posted it here under my account.<BR/><BR/>- - - - - - - - - <BR/><BR/>Jason:<I>Prayer is communication with God (or any other deity for that matter). Prayer 'works' as much as speaking 'works'.</I><BR/><BR/> I guess I need to spell this out, even though the topic of the thread seems to be clear. How does prayer "work" in the context of praying for the sick?Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11516893714771932202008-04-03T14:53:00.000-04:002008-04-03T14:53:00.000-04:00Jason: Without praying for the sick, one isn't req...Jason: <I>Without praying for the sick, one isn't requesting the assistance of God. In praying for the sick, one is requesting the assistance of God.</I><BR/><BR/>So prayer "works" when you successfully request assistance from God?<BR/><BR/>This sounds like B, except you don't even need to get what you prayed for. <BR/><BR/>However, earlier, you said... <BR/><BR/>Hamilcar <I>: May I ask you, do you believe that God answers prayers?</I><BR/><BR/>Jason: <I>I’m a Christian. So the answer is yes. ☺</I><BR/><BR/>So, you also seem to believe that praying for the sick causes God to intercede and cause changes realty, which corresponds to D. <BR/><BR/>I'm still confused. <BR/><BR/>Jason: <I>Is a request for assistance wicked?</I><BR/><BR/>What kind of assistance are you requesting? How is your request being fulfilled?<BR/><BR/>Examples...<BR/><BR/>What if I ask God to give me a promotion even though there are others who are better suited for the position and/or needed the additional income more than I would (they have a large family, etc.)? <BR/><BR/>What if I ask God to smite or kill someone because I simply do not like them?<BR/><BR/>What if I ask a doctor to give a friend or family member an organ transplant, knowing he will use an organ obtained the black market? (organs, such as kidneys, livers and corneas are taken from <A HREF="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japans-rich-buy-organs-from-executed-chinese-prisoners-470719.html" REL="nofollow">executed prisoners in China</A> or illegally bought and sold by expensive, private hospitals in <A HREF="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/01/0116_040116_EXPLorgantraffic.html" REL="nofollow">Brazil</A> and <A HREF="http://www.boingboing.net/2005/05/23/black-market-organs-.html" REL="nofollow">Iraq</A>)<BR/><BR/>These are cases where, simply asking for assistance appears to be wrong or even wicked - which is why I'm trying to clarify what occurs if praying for the sick "works".Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-28763846866907202182008-04-03T11:37:00.000-04:002008-04-03T11:37:00.000-04:00Without praying for the sick, one isn't requesting...Without praying for the sick, one isn't requesting the assistance of God. In praying for the sick, one is requesting the assistance of God.<BR/><BR/>Is a request for assistance wicked?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24688473130978285222008-04-02T18:09:00.000-04:002008-04-02T18:09:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564381773257787443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-66756706424788441202008-04-02T17:02:00.000-04:002008-04-02T17:02:00.000-04:00Prayer is communication with God (or any other dei...Prayer is communication with God (or any other deity for that matter). Prayer 'works' as much as speaking 'works'.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-59386201754668719012008-04-02T14:52:00.000-04:002008-04-02T14:52:00.000-04:00I still don't know what you mean when you say pray...I still don't know what you mean when you say prayer "works". If we can't define something then how can we say it's "Good"?<BR/><BR/>Please pick one the following that most closely matches your view of how prayer "works". <BR/><BR/>A. Prayer is merely a way to express concern spoken in the language of religion. It works because it effectively expresses concern. <BR/><BR/>B. A prayer "works" anytime you pray for something and it occurs. How it came about or whether it was going to occur or not is irrelevant. The only requirement is that what I asked for ends up occurring. <BR/><BR/>C. A prayer is answered anytime you ask for something, it occurs and you believe that God caused it to occur. If you prayed for something, it occurs, but you did not believe, then the prayer wasn't really answered. <BR/><BR/>D. Prayer works when God actually intercedes to change the course of events and cause what you prayed for to occur. If what you prayed for was going to occur anyway, your prayer was not 'answered'. <BR/><BR/>If none of these fit, then please explain what you mean when you say prayer "works". Simply saying none of the above, is a non-answer.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-82121388404324882802008-04-01T17:15:00.000-04:002008-04-01T17:15:00.000-04:00Scott said: How is this any different? God says it...Scott said: <I>How is this any different? God says it's OK, so it's not wrong?</I><BR/><BR/>You say it's wrong so it's not right? I'll side with God on this one.<BR/><BR/><I>Again, there is no statistical advantage for Christian's.</I><BR/><BR/>Then what's the issue?<BR/><BR/><I>If God answers prayer, then how can you account for those who would not have recovered otherwise? It just doesn't' add up.</I><BR/><BR/>By the admittance of many here, there's been no study that has been able to definitely measure the effectiveness of prayer. Until there is, all of this talk about statistical advantage is nothing more then conjecture.<BR/><BR/><I>You offer no answer. Just assertions based on dogma.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes...?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91752127821688908492008-04-01T16:22:00.000-04:002008-04-01T16:22:00.000-04:00Jason: Buying stolen merchandise is against the la...Jason: <I>Buying stolen merchandise is against the law. Is praying?</I><BR/><BR/>How is this any different? God says it's OK, so it's not wrong?<BR/><BR/>Again, there is no statistical advantage for Christian's. If God answers prayer, then how can you account for those who would not have recovered otherwise? It just doesn't' add up. <BR/><BR/>You offer no answer. Just assertions based on dogma.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81440362213419888192008-04-01T14:53:00.000-04:002008-04-01T14:53:00.000-04:00Scott said:So what's your position on buying stole...Scott said:<I>So what's your position on buying stolen merchandise? Since buying things isn't wrong, I guess you wouldn't think buying items that were stolen from someone else was wrong either.</I><BR/><BR/>Buying stolen merchandise is against the law. Is praying?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89515178596466063782008-04-01T13:19:00.000-04:002008-04-01T13:19:00.000-04:00The topic is praying for the sick, Scott. I’m not ...<I>The topic is praying for the sick, Scott. I’m not sure how many more times we need to go through this. If you’re upset that God is potentially trading someone else’s life for someone who is healed, fine. But that still doesn’t make prayer wicked. All I’m doing is asking God to heal my sick friend. He can say yes or He can say no. Asking isn’t evil.</I><BR/><BR/>So what's your position on buying stolen merchandise?<BR/><BR/>Since buying things isn't wrong, I guess you wouldn't think buying items that were stolen from someone else was wrong either.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15715751034263906422008-03-31T22:53:00.000-04:002008-03-31T22:53:00.000-04:00Almond Pound Cake anyone? It's delicious.Almond Pound Cake anyone? It's delicious.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11319089102007684882008-03-31T22:02:00.000-04:002008-03-31T22:02:00.000-04:00Scott said: I don't see how you can separate the c...Scott said: <I>I don't see how you can separate the cost from the outcome.</I><BR/><BR/>Saying a 30-second prayer to God for sick person to get better doesn’t cost anything other then 30 seconds.<BR/><BR/><I>Simply saying there is no need is merely an attempt to avoid the issue. </I><BR/><BR/>Simply saying there is no need is simply answering the question.<BR/><BR/><I>If I put a substance in someone's drink thinking it will kill them, but it doesn't, was the act not attempted murder?</I><BR/><BR/>Huh? If your child hopes Santa will bring gifts to orphan girls in Africa, do you think your child's request is wicked? Of course not. You know Santa doesn't exist so such a request is harmless. Likewise, if you know prayer doesn't work and God doesn't exist, then if I pray to my God for a friend in Russia to get better, this also is harmless.<BR/><BR/><I>People who pray for the sick are asking God change reality. But if God does have an effect, at what expense would this effect come about?</I><BR/><BR/>Your issue is with God then, not with communication with God (e.g. prayer).<BR/><BR/><I>Then I guess you think the end justifies the means. Because I can't see any other way that God could really have an effect without upsetting the balance we observe. Again, I'm open to other ways around the problem, but you don't seem to feel it requires justification. </I><BR/><BR/>The topic is praying for the sick, Scott. I’m not sure how many more times we need to go through this. If you’re upset that God is potentially trading someone else’s life for someone who is healed, fine. But that still doesn’t make prayer wicked. All I’m doing is asking God to heal my sick friend. He can say yes or He can say no. Asking isn’t evil.<BR/><BR/><I>You see prayer as a directive from God. Therefore, you'll never see prayer as wicked because God is your source of morality.</I><BR/><BR/>Read the initial post again. There’s nothing there about keeping balance or how God answers prayer. The whole issue seems to be about causing someone else pain and misery because the individual knew people are praying for them. So, if the sick person didn’t know anyone was praying for him then the issue has been solved: prayer isn’t wicked when the subject of prayer is ignorant to prayers being made on his behalf.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29247324921451469182008-03-31T21:03:00.000-04:002008-03-31T21:03:00.000-04:00Scott, the topic isn’t whether or not prayer works...<I>Scott, the topic isn’t whether or not prayer works. We're discussing whether or not praying for the sick is wicked. </I><BR/><BR/>I don't see how you can separate the cost from the outcome.<BR/><BR/>Scott: <I>There's no need or you simply don't want to conceder the impact of God actually answering prayer? </I><BR/><BR/>Jason: <I>The former.</I><BR/><BR/>Simply saying there is no need is merely an attempt to avoid the issue. <BR/><BR/>Prayer works because God says it works. Prayer has no impact on others because God doesn't say it has an impact. The problem of statistical advantage isn't a problem because God doesn't say it is. What we observe is irrelevant. <BR/><BR/><I>But since you don’t believe prayer works, then there is no change of reality and thus, prayer isn’t wicked.</I><BR/><BR/>If I put a substance in someone's drink thinking it will kill them, but it doesn't, was the act not attempted murder?<BR/><BR/>People who pray for the sick are asking God change reality. But if God does have an effect, at what expense would this effect come about?<BR/><BR/><I>No, you’re arguing the compensation is evil, not the prayer.</I><BR/><BR/>Then I guess you think the end justifies the means. Because I can't see any other way that God could really have an effect without upsetting the balance we observe. Again, I'm open to other ways around the problem, but you don't seem to feel it requires justification. <BR/><BR/>You see prayer as a directive from God. Therefore, you'll never see prayer as wicked because God is your source of morality.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-68898628512462600172008-03-31T16:40:00.000-04:002008-03-31T16:40:00.000-04:00Jason:Almond Pound Cake Recipe3 cups Granulated su...Jason:<BR/><BR/>Almond Pound Cake Recipe<BR/><BR/>3 cups Granulated sugar<BR/>1/2 pound Butter<BR/>1/2 cup Shortening<BR/>5 Eggs<BR/>1/4 tsp Salt<BR/>3 cups Flour<BR/>3/4 cup Evaporated milk<BR/>1/4 cup Water<BR/>2 tsp Almond extract<BR/>Oven Temp ~ 320° <BR/>Baking Time ~ 1 Hour & 30 Min.<BR/>Pan Type ~ 12-cup Bundt pan<BR/>Lightly grease your pan. Do Not Preheat Oven!<BR/><BR/>Cream sugar, butter and shortening. Add eggs and salt. Cream well.<BR/>Add remaining ingredients.<BR/>Pour into a prepared pan.<BR/>Put into cold oven.<BR/>Set temperature and bake.<BR/>Cool 15 minutes and remove from panEvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-34368197387002685242008-03-31T16:02:00.000-04:002008-03-31T16:02:00.000-04:00Scott said: You've essentially said that there is ...Scott said: <I>You've essentially said that there is no criteria which defines an answered prayer, other than the act of someone praying for something. Then you cited a 'plain' prayer to justify this lack of criteria. As such, I still don't know what you mean by prayer "works".</I><BR/><BR/>Scott, the topic isn’t whether or not prayer works. We're discussing whether or not praying for the sick is wicked. <BR/><BR/><I>There's no need or you simply don't want to conceder the impact of God actually answering prayer? </I><BR/><BR/>The former.<BR/><BR/><I>Again, does God actually change reality or are you simply saying "I hope things work out for you"? Because latter makes claims and promises about God's ability to intercede in matters of illness and death. </I><BR/><BR/>Again, irrelevant. We’re not discussing God changing reality, we’re discussing prayer. So, like I said, if prayer doesn’t work, which is what you believe, it’s not wicked, it’s just useless.<BR/><BR/><I>If a drug company sold a product which has no proven effect on a serious illness, would a doctor be justified in proscribing it to sick people? Do people not make psychic and monetarily 'investments' into the idea that prayer changes outcomes? Imagine how funds for the 100 million dollar prayer center could have been otherwise put to use.</I><BR/><BR/>Not sure what this has to do with someone praying for a sick friend.<BR/><BR/><I>You want to have your cake and eat it too. </I><BR/><BR/>What I want is for you to stay on topic. <B><I>Is praying for the sick wicked?</B></I><BR/><BR/><I>Because, you're asking for God to change reality when such changes must have an impact on others if they really do occur. </I><BR/><BR/>But since you don’t believe prayer works, then there is no change of reality and thus, prayer isn’t wicked.<BR/><BR/><I>Again, we do not observe the balance changing due to God's actions. As such, God must be compensating in some way to prevent statistical advantages. Simply having faith that this compensation does not occur doesn't mean it would not occur if God really does effect reality. It is in this context that prayer appears to be morally evil.</I><BR/><BR/>No, you’re arguing the compensation is evil, not the prayer.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25227740461598540522008-03-31T15:27:00.000-04:002008-03-31T15:27:00.000-04:00Jason: For prayer to actually be wicked, you'll ne...Jason: <I>For prayer to actually be wicked, you'll need to prove that an individual communicating with God is somehow inherently evil if the topic is a sick person getting better.</I><BR/><BR/>Because, you're asking for God to change reality when such changes must have an impact on others if they really do occur. <BR/><BR/>Again, we do not observe the balance changing due to God's actions. As such, God must be compensating in some way to prevent statistical advantages. Simply having faith that this compensation does not occur doesn't mean it would not occur if God really does effect reality. <BR/><BR/>It is in this context that prayer appears to be morally evil.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40355930135173746342008-03-31T15:17:00.000-04:002008-03-31T15:17:00.000-04:00If you go back and read what I’ve written, you’ll ...<I>If you go back and read what I’ve written, you’ll see that I’ve never claimed God only works through nature. What I’m saying is that answers to prayers don’t need to come in the form of miraculous, incredible events, which is what you’re maintaining must happen in order for it to be considered an ‘answer’. </I><BR/><BR/>You've essentially said that there is no criteria which defines an answered prayer, other than the act of someone praying for something. Then you cited a 'plain' prayer to justify this lack of criteria. As such, I still don't know what you mean by prayer "works".<BR/><BR/>Scott: <I>Do you really think it's that "simple"? </I><BR/><BR/>Jason: <I>Absolutely. There's no need for it to be any more complicated.</I><BR/><BR/>There's no need or you simply don't want to conceder the impact of God actually answering prayer? <BR/> <BR/><I>If I knew prayer doesn’t work yet I still pray for my sick mother to get better, my prayer isn’t any more ‘wicked’ then if I knew it did work. If prayer doesn’t work, it’s not wicked, it’s just useless. </I><BR/><BR/>Again, does God actually change reality or are you simply saying "I hope things work out for you"? Because latter makes claims and promises about God's ability to intercede in matters of illness and death. <BR/><BR/>If a drug company sold a product which has no proven effect on a serious illness, would a doctor be justified in proscribing it to sick people? Do people not make psychic and monetarily 'investments' into the idea that prayer changes outcomes? Imagine how funds for the <A HREF="http://www.worldprayer.org.uk/pagesys.cfm?pID=140" REL="nofollow">100 million dollar prayer center</A> could have been otherwise put to use.<BR/><BR/><I>What my belief is based on is irrelevant. Is praying for the sick wicked?</I><BR/><BR/>You want to have your cake and eat it too. God really answers prayer, but he does so in some kind of faith based vacuum that has no effect on the world we actually live in. Yet, if God really does have an impact, calling on God to tip the scales despite the implied impact doesn't seem very moral or intellectually honest.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6718283611221901082008-03-31T12:03:00.000-04:002008-03-31T12:03:00.000-04:00Knitterman said: Prayer for the sick is presumed b...Knitterman said: <I>Prayer for the sick is presumed by believers to be helpful and kind. </I><BR/><BR/>Agreed.<BR/><BR/><I>You find a parched and thirsty person. You say "I'm going to give you a glass of water; it will help." And you hand him an empty glass. </I><BR/><BR/>Okay.<BR/><BR/><I>Nobody with a heart would accept this as anything but cruel and wicked. </I><BR/><BR/>Agreed.<BR/><BR/><I>Why would offering prayer to the sick (offering an "empty glass") be any less cruel and wicked?</I><BR/><BR/>Because you’re not offering a prayer <B>to the sick</B>. You’re offering the prayer to <B>God</B>. <I><B>The sick individual isn’t required to be involved in any way.</I></B><BR/><BR/><I>Because sick people do not get well as a result of prayer, it is wrong to offer it with the implication that it helps. It's an empty hope.</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed but you're still using a specific situation and trying to apply it to the argument as a whole. In this 'empty hope' case, it's still not the prayer that's wicked, it's how you're handling the situation. For example, let's say the sick person never finds out you're praying for them to get better. How is my prayer wicked?<BR/><BR/>Or if I pray for my sick Christian pro-prayer mother. By your standard, my prayer isn't wicked. <BR/><BR/>Or if I pray for my sick atheist mother without telling her I'm praying for her, by your standard, my prayer still isn't wicked. <BR/><BR/>Or if my sick agnostic mother requests I pray to my Christian God for her, and I do, by your standard my prayer isn't wicked.<BR/><BR/>For prayer to actually be wicked, you'll need to prove that an individual communicating with God is somehow inherently evil if the topic is a sick person getting better.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.com