tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post5133678698341516351..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: My DeconversionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83207624314400281762008-03-05T06:11:00.000-05:002008-03-05T06:11:00.000-05:00"It became obvious to me that all multicellular li..."It became obvious to me that all multicellular life arose from a lucky symbiosis. When it became necessary to burn oxygen, eukaryotic cells were simply cobbled together out of two other cell types, one that fermented and one that oxidized."<BR/>Apologies for not studying biology before posting this comment. However I don't think it is reasonable to call something lucky based on the fact that you understand how it works. The fact is that it works, pointing to the fact that it was designed to work. Studying networking I discovered that the internet it held together by the symbiosis of TCP/IP and electrical pulses coming through my phone line. Yet I don't consider myself lucky that I am able to comment on your blog through this amazing technology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91869437099538287352008-02-23T06:58:00.000-05:002008-02-23T06:58:00.000-05:00Patrick wrote: "I hope you'll forgive the expressi...Patrick wrote: "I hope you'll forgive the expression, but I have had an almost spiritual conversion to atheism. It's extremely powerful to me that I am beholden to noone, and no thing." Sounds a little more like fear of intimacy to me, but I know you'll let me know I'm wrong eh?<BR/><BR/>Then you wrote, "Being a decent human being for no other reason than I chose to, with noone or thing looking over my shoulder is incredibly powerful. Admittedly with my worldview there is no particular reason to be a decent human being, but that's all the more reason to enjoy it, and pat myself on the back, in my opinion." Patrick, you honestly are inciting a protective instinct within me here - think swinging meat, my friend, swinging meat. Being good for goodness sake - been there, done that.<BR/><BR/>"I hope I don't offend you when I say that you haven't answered any of my questions, just offered platitudes."<BR/><BR/>From your writing, it seems your expectation is for me to take offense at what you have said - but I have few things remaining that stir offense - on the contrary, rejection by other people only brings me closer to gratitude for Y'shua. <BR/><BR/>Overall, I find it noteworthy that by your standard for being a good person that allowances are made for you to relegate another's personal insight and firsthand experience to that of platitude. If that is your idea of being good, then by all means, pat yourself on the back - it isn't uncommon for people's definition of "good" to become coopted into including behaviors that aren't particularly edifying. At any rate, while you're patting away, I'll just be over here rejoicing that God is God and other people are not.<BR/><BR/>On a final note, I do disagree with you that I did not answer your questions - I did respond to your inquiries, but don't you feel it would be more forthright to just say that you flat out reject them?<BR/><BR/>At any rate, I'm no influence here, so I'll be moving along.<BR/><BR/>Ciao!Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49362869042355963142008-02-23T03:46:00.000-05:002008-02-23T03:46:00.000-05:00Evan--That is a good part of what I'm asking. It'...Evan--<BR/><BR/>That is a good part of what I'm asking. It's just that you put it more eloquently and more clearly than I. I might also say that I am unable to believe that the sun revolves around the earth, no matter how much I might wish it were true without some impressive evidence contrary to that which I already accept.<BR/><BR/>I'm certain that John or some other contributer has already addressed this, but I don't remember reading a Christian give any credible response. I could be wrong, but am interested in hearing a different viewpoint than mine/yours.<BR/><BR/>My best,<BR/><BR/>PatrickUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04502765198976822221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8211946167172946722008-02-23T02:39:00.000-05:002008-02-23T02:39:00.000-05:00Patrick, I think the truth of what you are saying ...Patrick, I think the truth of what you are saying stands for itself, but I am interested in a side idea that you seem to suggest but I'm not sure it's exactly what you are getting at.<BR/><BR/>To phrase it simply: I don't believe in leprechauns. I don't think I ever could believe in leprechauns, even if I wanted to. The only way I could believe in leprechauns would be if I met one in such a way that left me with only one possible explanation: that leprechauns actually exist bodily and there was no possible way it could have been a hoax. I would accept any other plausible explanation before I accepted the existence of leprechauns.<BR/><BR/>In other words, just seeing a movie of a leprechaun would be useless, seeing a book written about leprechauns would be laughable regardless of the certainty of the writers, because the premise is absurd.<BR/><BR/>It's impossible for me to believe in leprechauns on the basis of any testimony or any document because I have seen too many people who deluded themselves, and I have seen too much photographic and documentary fraud and forgery.<BR/><BR/>In essence, when I have a belief about something it is really involuntary processes in my brain that decide I will believe it. I have no conscious ability to choose to believe something that my brain has chosen to find fault with. I cannot coerce it.<BR/><BR/>What I can coerce is my ability to act as if something is true while I know that it is not.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me this is what you are suggesting, and if it is I think it's a fruitful area for further exploration.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77701513521177303832008-02-23T02:25:00.000-05:002008-02-23T02:25:00.000-05:00mmm-This is among my first posts at this or any si...mmm-<BR/><BR/>This is among my first posts at this or any site, and I find that I'm enjoying it immensely. So, thanks for that.<BR/><BR/>I wrote "Is it possible to believe something you find highly improbable because you want to believe it?"<BR/><BR/>And then you wrote "To me what you wrote right there is a truthful and more valuable-than-gold mustard seed - it is a heartfelt desire - that is more meaningful than any academic accomplishment."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems like you read into my statement that I do indeed want to believe, but have my doubts. The truth is closer to-I used to believe, but found reason not to. Also I now have no desire to. I hope you'll forgive the expression, but I have had an almost spiritual conversion to atheism. It's extremely powerful to me that I am beholden to noone, and no thing. Being a decent human being for no other reason than I chose to, with noone or thing looking over my shoulder is incredibly powerful. Admittedly with my worldview there is no particular reason to be a decent human being, but that's all the more reason to enjoy it, and pat myself on the back, in my opinion.<BR/><BR/>I hope I don't offend you when I say that you haven't answered any of my questions, just offered platitudes.<BR/><BR/>You said that you trusted in god not to be abusive of you. I hate to use the analogy, but Santa was never abusive to me either. No coal ever. Not once.<BR/><BR/>I said "Let's pretend that I want to believe in god. How do I go about doing that? I've spent an inordinate amount of time watching debates between apologeticists and atheists. I've only reaffirmed my disbelief."<BR/><BR/>Again it seems as though you didn't answer my question. Why is it "cynicism" to not believe instead of "honest inquiry".<BR/><BR/>I think that Atheism is the ultimate paradigm because of all the reasons contributers here outline better than I could. Mostly because I couldn't sqaure a loving god with a god who sends more than 2/3 of humanity to hell for not believing in Jesus.<BR/><BR/>In the last paragraph of your most recent post you referred to luring god out of his hiding place. Why is he hiding? Furthermore you seemed to indicate that you had a personal converstion with him. Is it possible that you had a conversation with yourself and attributed it to god?<BR/><BR/>Basically I don't see how the desire to believe in god, or all the good things you may attribute to that belief constitute reality. And I feel that I'd rather believe in reality even if (although it's not the case) I wanted to believe in fantasy.<BR/><BR/>My best,<BR/><BR/>PatrickUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04502765198976822221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75496921295383592292008-02-23T00:56:00.000-05:002008-02-23T00:56:00.000-05:00Thanks for the conversation, Patrick - I'll just s...Thanks for the conversation, Patrick - I'll just say that I would be honored to assume the role of soccer management member - I might even be able to do a half decent job for you. And just as an aside and an ever so gentle nudge, knowing onesself as being loveable does not have to equate into arrogance - on the contrary, it can provide a firm and secure foundation that saves people from perishing and frees up mental emotional space for creative pursuits..<BR/><BR/>"Is it possible to believe something you find highly improbable because you want to believe it?" To me what you wrote right there is a truthful and more valuable-than-gold mustard seed - it is a heartfelt desire - that is more meaningful than any academic accomplishment. Then you wrote, "I tell myself I believe something often enough that I no longer remember when I said "I don't believe", does that qualify as belief? Is that what god wants from me?" <BR/><BR/>Patrick, I couldn't indoctrinate myself into faith - I couldn't squeeze a square peg in a round hole.<BR/>I did get delivered from idolotry and pride (and that is definitely like going into a dentist's office with more cavities than teeth) just so I could finally trust that when I drew close to God that He wasn't going to be abusive to me.<BR/><BR/>" Do I go to heaven for telling people I believe, or for pretending I believe?" Well,would it be heavenly to carry the burden of pretense and fear of reproach for the purpose of image maintenance? I think that is just like hell and I can say that I lived that way for nearly my entire life - not fun or faithful. <BR/><BR/>Patrick wrote: "Let's pretend that I want to believe in god. How do I go about doing that? I've spent an inordinate amount of time watching debates between apologeticists and atheists. I've only reaffirmed my disbelief." Well said, Patrick - even the softest of hearts can come away infected with a bit of cynicism and forget that God loves even those who reject Him and hold Him in contempt. Just curious, but what makes you think that nonbelief is the ultimate and concluding paradigm for the rest of your life?? Just wondering since I travelled through several years of nonbelief mysself.<BR/><BR/>As far as giving a pat answer about how to lure a god out of his hiding place (although that image is more consistant with idolotry), I know Him to be a free spirit and a courageous lover of people. I was amazed that He wasn't offended by me and it took me a long time to truly believe that He loved me first and to be delivered from the fear of condemnation and rejection - I could write a long time about this but I know my own attention span begins to drift after about the first paragraph, so will go for now - the best to you!Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-9606519319497319502008-02-23T00:17:00.000-05:002008-02-23T00:17:00.000-05:00Evan,Did you Deconvert over a magic cell?Your reas...Evan,<BR/>Did you Deconvert over a magic cell?<BR/><BR/>Your reasoning is circular and speculative and filled with presumptions.<BR/><BR/>Case closed.<BR/><BR/>I will hold your cell to the same evidence as you do the Bible. <BR/>Which by the way is dated a lot of years earlier.<BR/><BR/>Billions of years.... Funny?Jamie Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13186614354346762218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13191001207688547542008-02-23T00:09:00.000-05:002008-02-23T00:09:00.000-05:00Tim, you say Your response tries to make a paralle...Tim, you say <I>Your response tries to make a parallel between two miraculous events as required beliefs in the respective religions. Your original claim, however, was not about mirror-image beliefs but about mirror-immage arguments.</I><BR/><BR/>Imagine 2 religions, one that says that all human beings contain an inner spaceman that was traumatized in a prehistoric volcano, and one that says that God buried gold plates and someone translated them.<BR/><BR/>You don't believe either one.<BR/><BR/>A member of the first religion uses an argument that assumes that the source of the story he tells you is by itself authoritative.<BR/><BR/>A member of the second religion uses an argument that assumes that the source of the story he tells you is by itself authoritative.<BR/><BR/>Are they mirror images of each other?Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-810211848024924122008-02-23T00:05:00.000-05:002008-02-23T00:05:00.000-05:00Jamie,You're on a jury. The accused murderer was s...Jamie,<BR/><BR/>You're on a jury. The accused murderer was seen leaving the scene of a crime where his fingerprints were found on a bloody weapon that contained both his own DNA and the DNA of the victim.<BR/><BR/>We do not know with complete certainty every step that took place between when the accused entered the building and when he left.<BR/><BR/>Is this evidence of a miracle?<BR/><BR/>Does it require faith to believe the accused is guilty?<BR/><BR/>No. On balance the evidence shows quite clearly that the accused is highly likely to be guilty. The only way he will avoid conviction is with a powerful alibi or a powerful alternative theory of the case that explains ALL the evidence.<BR/><BR/>If you believe the jury convicting him is acting out of faith, then I have no argument with you.<BR/><BR/>I believe the jury is acting on the basis of evidence and making reasonable although not 100% certain deductions on the basis of that evidence, rather than using faith.<BR/><BR/>It is the same kinds of evidence we use to determine the likely sequence of events that resulted in abiogenesis.<BR/><BR/>In addition, the reason the person on your video knows that within the first billion years of earth's history the first cell appeared is because we have fossil cells from rocks which date to that age that show the same structures as modern bacterial cells.<BR/><BR/>Again, this is based on factual, verifiable evidence that you can look up and learn yourself. <BR/><BR/>You asked me if I had read the Bible. I have. <BR/><BR/>Have you studied science?Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-50758849767949090232008-02-22T23:14:00.000-05:002008-02-22T23:14:00.000-05:00Evan,You ask:First, what eyewitnesses to the resur...Evan,<BR/><BR/>You ask:<BR/><BR/><I>First, what eyewitnesses to the resurrection are there? My reading of the gospels shows no eyewitnesses to the resurrection. </I><BR/><BR/>You misread me. I did not speak of eyewitnesses to the resurrection: I spoke of eyewitnesses to the risen Christ.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>... the gospels were written by anonymous authors all of whom could not have been present at the resurrection.</I><BR/><BR/>Here again you are reading things into what I wrote that are not there. I did not say that the authors of the gospels were all eyewitnesses, but rather that since Pentecost, Christians have been appealing to eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ as the principal ground of Christian belief. <BR/><BR/>My question for you has to do not with your evaluation of the strength of that argument -- obviously you are of the opinion that it is weak -- but rather with your assertion in the original post that "[e]very argument that Christians make to convince you of the truth of their religion has a mirror image in Islam."<BR/><BR/>Your response tries to make a parallel between two miraculous events as required beliefs in the respective religions. Your original claim, however, was not about mirror-image beliefs but about mirror-immage <I>arguments</I>. I confess that I do not think there is much in the way of parallel between the argument from the resurrection and the argument from the writing of the Koran. But what you say here does not speak to a parallel in the arguments at all.<BR/><BR/>If that is what you originally had in mind, then it seems to me that you should not have made the claim about mirror image arguments. If it is an attempt to force a parallel after the fact, then it seems to me that you would be better off withdrawing the claim.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15786874834919065011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-56658332647911817882008-02-22T23:00:00.000-05:002008-02-22T23:00:00.000-05:00Evan,While we do not have a step by step account o...Evan,<BR/><BR/>While we do not have a step by step account of exactly what happened we have some ideas that seem likely given our current level of knowledge. <BR/><BR/>Sounds like you don't have any proof or evidence of this at all just speculation and theory.<BR/>Must take a lot of "Faith" to "believe" in the magic cell that made us all.<BR/><BR/>You said Not one of those steps seems miraculous given current understanding of chemistry and biology. <BR/><BR/>That is your opinion but many atheist whom are scientist would disagree in a New York minute with this statement of yours.<BR/><BR/>By the way the magic cell can be found on a video called "Breaking the science barrier". <BR/>After he says "there is still a lot we don't know about the origins of the universe.."<BR/>-at least he is honest about that -hope you are.<BR/>Then he states that the world is "about" 4 and half billions years old... more speculation...<BR/>Then he states "Within the 1st billion years or so.. the first living cell appeared..." how does he know...<BR/>He doesn't say.... why he doesn't know..<BR/>It is magic.. Like the tooth fairy, I guess.<BR/>You atheist have a lot of faith!Jamie Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13186614354346762218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24645171512998125852008-02-22T22:58:00.000-05:002008-02-22T22:58:00.000-05:00mmm-I agree that I am no less loveable for not bei...mmm-<BR/><BR/>I agree that I am no less loveable for not being a professional soccer player. In fact, a case could be made that I would be insufferably arrogant if I were.<BR/><BR/>side note: euphemism is my favorite form of communication, so thanks for that.<BR/><BR/>I am interested though, in what you think about the ability to believe vs. one's preference of possible beliefs. <BR/><BR/>Is it possible to believe something you find highly improbable because you want to believe it? If so is that actual "belief"? If I tell myself I believe something often enough that I no longer remember when I said "I don't believe", does that qualify as belief? Is that what god wants from me? Do I go to heaven for telling people I believe, or for pretending I believe?<BR/><BR/>Let's pretend that I want to believe in god. How do I go about doing that? I've spent an inordinate amount of time watching debates between apologeticists and atheists. I've only reaffirmed my disbelief.<BR/><BR/>If you say I need to open up my heart to Jesus, or The Holy Spirit I'll have to scratch you off the list of possible managers of my Premier League career.<BR/><BR/>I guess my point is that, to me, the evidence is so far stacked against Christianity or any other major religion that I am unable to believe. I don't think I have any particular bone to pick with Christians. Most of the ones I've met have been nicer, more kind, and more decent than the rest of humanity in my experience. I don't feel any particular need to rebel against the norm. Why hasn't god seen fit to provide me with the evidence necessary for me to believe?<BR/><BR/>That in itself is, to me, argument against gods existence.<BR/><BR/>Are you suggesting that you believe because you prefer to believe? How could that be possible? I think all the contributers here have shown that they would have preferred to believe, but no longer could.<BR/><BR/>Does god condemn us for the very curiosity he gave us?<BR/><BR/>So many questions--so little bandwidth. <BR/><BR/>I'd be interested in hearing your answer to any or all of these questions.<BR/><BR/>My best<BR/><BR/>PatrickUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04502765198976822221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43735686255240814922008-02-22T22:50:00.000-05:002008-02-22T22:50:00.000-05:00Liniasmax,I love the phrase "I'm edible."It remind...Liniasmax,<BR/><BR/>I love the phrase "I'm edible."<BR/><BR/>It reminds me of an old egg commercial :)Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23093883644082093852008-02-22T22:46:00.000-05:002008-02-22T22:46:00.000-05:00Jamie, you say "Richard Dawkins said, "Billions of...Jamie, you say <I>"Richard Dawkins said, "Billions of years ago a cell appeared and made all we have now."<BR/>Wow- where did the cell come from.<BR/>You have to have "blind faith" in the cell. :</I><BR/><BR/>First, you have Professor Dawkins in quotes there. Please tell me what that citation is from. I'm curious, since that sounds pretty apocryphal to me.<BR/><BR/>Secondly -- the cell came from chemicals. There are many candidate locations but the currently most favored one is deep sea hydrothermal vents where there is excess energy. The vents power the creation of the building blocks of life, monomeric organic molecules (nucleic acids, amino acids, simple carbohydrates, aldehydes, ketones etc). <BR/><BR/>In some location near the vents or some location in the vents, conditions catalyze the monomers to form polymers, which are longer chains of the monomers (polypeptides for amino acids, RNA for nucleic acids). <BR/><BR/>While we do not have a step by step account of exactly what happened we have some ideas that seem likely given our current level of knowledge. In addition we have a clear enough idea of the likely progression of events:<BR/><BR/>1. Monomer formation<BR/>2. Polymer formation<BR/>3. Polymer formation with metabolic activity<BR/>4. Formation of replicating RNA with some enzyme activity<BR/>5. RNA replication within protected spaces.<BR/>6. RNA copied to DNA and also translated into protein within protected space<BR/>7. Generation of a bilipid layer that protects RNA, DNA and protein and allows it to move and interact with the environment.<BR/><BR/>Not one of those steps is unfathomable. Now it is not certain this is the exact path that abiogenesis took, but there are good scientists doing good research into this today, and this pathway is a very logical one to them. Not one of those steps seems miraculous given current understanding of chemistry and biology. <BR/><BR/>In addition, there is no reason to suspect that we will not create an artificial life form from an artificial genome within the next 10 years. We are already able to engineer bacteria and viruses to do things we want them to, so life can be manipulated fully utilizing only chemistry -- no divine ingredients necessary.<BR/><BR/>Not a single thing I have described above takes a modicum of faith. If you understand the chemistry, the organic chemistry, the biochemistry and the molecular biology, there is no stretch to the imagination required. So why do you think this requires me to believe something equivalent to what you believe? What equates my understanding of science to your belief in the Bible?Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17170481240747146732008-02-22T22:35:00.000-05:002008-02-22T22:35:00.000-05:00Evan,Once again you are wrong about the Bible.1 Mo...Evan,<BR/>Once again you are wrong about the Bible.<BR/><BR/>1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.<BR/>3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. <BR/> 1 Corinthians 15<BR/><BR/>24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” <BR/>So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” <BR/>26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” <BR/>28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” <BR/>29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”<BR/> John 20Jamie Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13186614354346762218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-5376860223691400892008-02-22T22:26:00.000-05:002008-02-22T22:26:00.000-05:00Tim,Since Pentecost, Christians have been appealin...Tim,<BR/><BR/><I>Since Pentecost, Christians have been appealing to eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ as the principal ground of Christian belief. I'd be curious to know what you think the mirror image of this is in Islam.</I><BR/><BR/>First, what eyewitnesses to the resurrection are there? My reading of the gospels shows no eyewitnesses to the resurrection. There is a discovery of an empty tomb, but no record of anyone seeing Jesus dead checking his breathing and pulse for 10 minutes, then watching his corpse reanimate, his wounds heal and seeing him stand up and talk again.<BR/><BR/>Beyond that -- the gospels were written by anonymous authors all of whom could not have been present at the resurrection. Therefore I think your premise is flawed.<BR/><BR/>What Islam and Christianity share in their apologetics is the uncritical acceptance of an extremely dubious and historically unlikely narrative.<BR/><BR/>For Christianity this is the dead and then reanimated divine Jesus. For Islam it is the narrative of the creation of the Koran, as dictated by the angel Gabriel to Muhammad and its status as the final, perfect testament of the transcendent God.<BR/><BR/>Muslims don't accept the reanimated divine Jesus, Christians don't accept the perfect Koran as dicated by Gabriel to Muhammad.<BR/><BR/>Mirror images to me. If you don't see them as such, I'm sorry.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67645532640715010362008-02-22T21:57:00.000-05:002008-02-22T21:57:00.000-05:00GP wrote: "therefore we prove the bible is true" I...GP wrote: "therefore we prove the bible is true" Interesting observation but one I'm going to chalk up to projection since the motive is one that I'm not personally acquainted with. BTW, you're quite welcome! :-)<BR/><BR/>Patrick wrote "I might prefer to believe that I will be a professional soccer player (obviously for Newcastle--I'd feed Viduka and Owen some wicked crosses). However, the truth is my other talents notwithstanding I'm slow as all hell." Patrick, I sincerely doubt that you are any less loveable because you are not a professional soccer player or slow as hell. In many ways, slow as hell can be a gift in the right venue...<BR/><BR/>Moving right along - <BR/>As far as what I mean about fully acknowledged way of life, perhaps by my editing it to say an acknowledged lifestyle might be more understandable? Let me know...<BR/><BR/>Bye!Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13881929170419416822008-02-22T21:23:00.000-05:002008-02-22T21:23:00.000-05:00mmm-I believe I understand your preference very we...mmm-<BR/><BR/>I believe I understand your preference very well. I don't know that it has any bearing on reality, though.<BR/><BR/>I might prefer to believe that I will be a professional soccer player (obviously for Newcastle--I'd feed Viduka and Owen some wicked crosses). However, the truth is my other talents notwithstanding I'm slow as all hell. <BR/><BR/>I am unable to believe that I'm talented enough to play in the Premier League, just as I'm unable to believe in god. Not because of my preferences, but because the chances of either being true are vanishingly small.<BR/><BR/>Enlightenment to me implies truth. I guess when all is said and done, I'd rather know the cold hard truth than live my life in the fog of a pleasant fiction.<BR/><BR/>Your mileage may vary.<BR/><BR/>Also I don't understand what you mean by "fully acknowledged way of life"<BR/><BR/>My best, <BR/><BR/>PatrickUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04502765198976822221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46069490738088987302008-02-22T21:15:00.000-05:002008-02-22T21:15:00.000-05:00MMM: "your stance of nonbelief is a fully acknowle...MMM: "your stance of nonbelief is a fully acknowledged way of life, both in reality and in scripture."<BR/>so - the bible predicts there will be atheists, and there are atheists like us, so therefore we prove the bible is true and that god exists. that really answers it all for me. thanks for pointing that out.goprairiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532311590000341237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4890292570889430972008-02-22T20:12:00.000-05:002008-02-22T20:12:00.000-05:00I prefer spiritual enlightenment over that which I...I prefer spiritual enlightenment over that which I can take hold and manipulate towards my own standards - not as much of a temptation anymore but still I'm not conceited to say I couldn't be tempted..<BR/><BR/>And BTW, your stance of nonbelief is a fully acknowledged way of life, both in reality and in scripture.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55163611865865989062008-02-22T19:54:00.000-05:002008-02-22T19:54:00.000-05:00mmm-you wrote "...why wouldn't our lives and the v...mmm-<BR/><BR/>you wrote "...why wouldn't our lives and the values we embrace here not be a progression of an eternal creative design?..."<BR/><BR/>Of course you're right. God could have made the world to appear exactly as if he didn't exist. Alternately, god doesn't exist.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04502765198976822221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-18367818615743465102008-02-22T19:43:00.000-05:002008-02-22T19:43:00.000-05:00Hi Evan,I enjoyed your story. I've also enjoyed r...Hi Evan,<BR/><BR/>I enjoyed your story. I've also enjoyed reading the ensuing discussion. I deconverted last April. Here's my two cents on all the lively discussion going on.<BR/><BR/>Penny number one: Seems that there is nothing new under the Sun (not Son - sorry, Larry Norman fans). It's like the same things over and over, but consistent, strong, amazing! I commend both sides for the sheer strength of their respective resolves. That said - I obviously feel that the "debunking" side is winning, or I would not count myself as one of the apostates.<BR/><BR/>penny number two: Doggonit, I'm edible. I'm made in God's image according to my old faith, so is God edible? If not, I have more in common with my cat than the God whose image I reflect. I'm freaking edible!!!! I know this can be explained as just another brick in the wall, I mean, another result of the "Fall," but what can't? It's foolproof!!! Only if you buy into it...<BR/><BR/>Look, I'm just a Foreign Language guy, so I can't shed light on what I may have learned in this or that molecular genetics class or whatever, but I know I'm supposed to be special, but seems I'm just as edible as the next sentient being, and made of the same stuff, with corresponding organs and genes and glands, etc. Dadgummitt, the family guinea pig Nibbles and I both have to take Ester C because we have the same gene that won't turn on!<BR/><BR/>You can spin it, argue it and hope all you want, but if you're not willing to take the shot in the dark, leap of faith, and believe that God made you special, which boils down to ancient texts dishonestly apologized for in the present, then you see common descent as how it happened...Now how did it get started? Well, we could have deism, atheism (naturalism), agnosticism, whatever...because we don't know.<BR/><BR/>Then we have the remnants of fear of the sun and thunder, i.e theism, which takes a leap of faith based on the fear of dying - check your reason at the door. Martin Luther said as much, and then Ben Franklin said as much (coming from completely different angles).<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry - but I'm edible, and I stump my toe, and the more time goes by without sticking my head back in the box, the more I see clearly, but right now, the fact that my cat, my wife, my girls, myself, and even my kindred spirit goprairie are all edible just seems well, so enlightening, but then again I'm a simple man - but I can quote Foucault out of context in order to publish in refereed journals.<BR/><BR/>Please don't use the fear thing either - like first I'm eaten by something else that's edible and then I go to Hell... that is psychotic.<BR/><BR/>Here's one more thing, since my two cents has obviously earned interest: Do you love anybody that demands love and worship? What do you think of them? Besides the fact that they're edible...<BR/><BR/>Liniasmaxliniasmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02355408515444980553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10498435842325861202008-02-22T19:04:00.000-05:002008-02-22T19:04:00.000-05:00A Skeptic wrote,"The fact that you think this is a...A Skeptic wrote,"The fact that you think this is a point against evolution shows how truly little you really understand about evolution."<BR/><BR/>Please reread my stance on evolution - is this a habit of yours for deducing "fact"?<BR/><BR/>May God bless :-)Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7753892891040151752008-02-22T18:41:00.000-05:002008-02-22T18:41:00.000-05:00Hi Evan,Thank you for sharing your story. I look f...Hi Evan,<BR/>Thank you for sharing your story. I look forward to reading more from you.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Why is it that anything that God does has to be in the realm of supernatural? It seems that when we can understand a natural process of something, that excludes God from the equation. I would challenge anyone to find the method that God used for creation in the bible. I recall reading that God created everything but I don't recall reading anywhere that explained how that was done.<BR/><BR/>Jamie,<BR/> you make the mistake many people do, you tell others about how their beliefs are unfounded, and non-believers about how they never really believed. I'm guessing that it's from things you've been told by others but you should be careful because you are wrong most of the time. Here's a good example:<BR/><I>Most mormons and many professing Christians are here-they just believe and don't know why or what they believe.</I><BR/>Just picking on the Mormons, there are around 12 million since most is more than half, would you say that you know at least 7 million Mormons so that you could make this assertion? That doesn't even count the professing christians. It's like saying that someone who is now athiest never really believed. In reading Evans story I would have to conclude that he "really " believed and I see no reason to think otherwise.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90078733111607812362008-02-22T17:40:00.000-05:002008-02-22T17:40:00.000-05:00MMM:When I studied anatomy and physiology,I found ...MMM:<BR/><BR/><I>When I studied anatomy and physiology,I found myself amazed that our bodies are designed to thrive - not just survive - the often antagonistic circumstances beset them.</I><BR/><BR/>The fact that you think this is a point against evolution shows how truly little you really understand about evolution.NoJohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06881606637722048408noreply@blogger.com