tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post4643134806592778311..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Defending the Bizarre Against the ObviousUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12193002480241006552007-03-01T22:06:00.000-05:002007-03-01T22:06:00.000-05:00Hi, John, this doesnt relate specifically to chris...Hi, John, this doesnt relate specifically to christianity but there's an article by Ray Kurzweil I read recently that I think you might find interesting. It has to do with the Singularity (the idea that humanity is on the threshold of a radical transformation resulting from technologies which will dramatically increase human intelligence....among other things).<BR/><BR/>Its bears a certain similarity to millenarian religious ideas (Ken Macleod once referred to it as "the rapture for nerds"). Despite that I find it quite plausible. The only think I'm very dubious about is the timescale. Though I wouldn't be greatly surprised if Kurzweil was right even on that.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, if you're interested the article is at:<BR/> http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=memelist.html?m=1%23691David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52138184867982211532007-03-01T19:30:00.000-05:002007-03-01T19:30:00.000-05:00**Of course Hitler attributed his escape to provid...**Of course Hitler attributed his escape to providence. After all, why wouldn’t God spare Hitler’s life when he felt he was doing God's work by exterminating the Jews** It's amazing how many hateful people do attribute their lives to providence (and I'm going across all religions here). <BR/><BR/>I forgot who said the quote, but paraphrased -- "It's a safe bet that you've made God in your own image when He hates all the same people you do." Which is exactly what Hitler did. <BR/><BR/>**After all, many Christians say that we humans cannot predict in the slightest what unknown reasons God has for his actions in his war against evil.** The problem here is that the moral outrage generated by the Holocaust would lead to a lot of questions such as the problem of evil. We generally find fault with beings who could've stopped something like the Holocaust and didn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-187457106183266072007-03-01T19:11:00.000-05:002007-03-01T19:11:00.000-05:00Steven,Of course Hitler attributed his escape to p...Steven,<BR/><BR/>Of course Hitler attributed his escape to providence. After all, why wouldn’t God spare Hitler’s life when he felt he was doing God's work by exterminating the Jews. Perhaps this was one of those unknown reasons why God let him live.....well at least live until human free will in the form of the Red Army made it to Berlin.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11054386957971688707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29202660340105626542007-03-01T16:58:00.000-05:002007-03-01T16:58:00.000-05:00Didn't Hitler attribute to his escape to the worki...Didn't Hitler attribute to his escape to the workings of Providence?<BR/><BR/>Perhaps he was right. After all, many Christians say that we humans cannot predict in the slightest what unknown reasons God has for his actions in his war against evil.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps God spared Hitler for one of those unknown reasons theologians like Plantinga are fond of claiming that God has and which we cannot presume to say do not exist.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40047492697784065282007-03-01T16:27:00.000-05:002007-03-01T16:27:00.000-05:00Let me add some more on the theme of killing of Hi...Let me add some more on the theme of killing of Hitler. The following story comes with tragic twist of fate. On July 20, 1944 there was an assassination attempt on Hitler's life that would have killed him if it were not for a fluke. Hitler was holding a staff meeting at the Wolf's Lair in East Prussia. Colonel Claus Von Staufenburg carried a bomb into the meeting room in his briefcase and placed it under the oak table at Hitler's feet. The bomb was perfectly positioned to kill Hitler when it would explode. <BR/> <BR/>The intervention of a fluke prevented this. In the time after the bomb was initially positioned to when it exploded, the bomb was inadvertently moved. A junior staff member unconsciously nudged the briefcase away from Hitler with his foot because it was in his way. The bomb was now repositioned under the oak table behind its wide legs. Moving that briefcase is something anyone would do without even thinking about it. When the bomb exploded, the sturdy oak table legs shielded Hitler from the full force of the blast and thus survived. Something as trivial as the nudging a briefcase altered the course of history and allowed millions more people to die. <BR/><BR/>Why did God allow this? Millions of lives could have been saved with the timely death of Hitler. The Second World War would have ended early and the physical destruction of Germany and Eastern Europe could have been prevented. God would not have had to do anything to actively kill Hitler; the free will of men would have taken care of that. The altering of one unconscious movement by a man was all that was necessary for God to save Millions. It is simple really! But God did nothing because he was not there to begin with.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11054386957971688707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57140267471902827482007-03-01T14:52:00.000-05:002007-03-01T14:52:00.000-05:00"Now why would it not be morally permissible for G..."Now why would it not be morally permissible for God to allow babies to suffer for sins they hadn't yet committed?"<BR/><BR/>Short answer - because it is cruel and completely without and rational basis, except perhaps for sadism. <BR/><BR/>I haven't read the link, maybe this weekend if I have time, but saw this in the comments "David Wood points out that at the age of 12 or 13, Hitler had done nothing deserving death." I guess Mr Wood does not believe that God knows everything, then, or else he would know the evil he would cause, nor does he believe that the Bible is accurate, at least as far as the genocide in Judges (and elsewhere). If his god could order the deaths of babies (and fetuses), is he claiming that they did something worthy of death? Or is it just that God can't get his own hands dirty? No christians in Europe that God could order to track down and kill one kid?<BR/><BR/>As the song says, "How Bizarre"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46534423497732249292007-03-01T14:02:00.000-05:002007-03-01T14:02:00.000-05:00Additionally, Wood's argument assumes that Hitler ...Additionally, Wood's argument assumes that Hitler caused the deaths of millions of people simultaneously. God could have killed him after he caused the death of his first innocent person (or his 100,000th) and still saved the world a lot of grief. He didn't, which kicks Wood's argument right in the keister even if you grant his premises.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83442035281030967272007-03-01T13:31:00.000-05:002007-03-01T13:31:00.000-05:00If God wanted to prevent Hitler gassing babies, th...If God wanted to prevent Hitler gassing babies, then there are other ways than killing Hitler.<BR/><BR/>One tried and trusted method is to put angels with flaming swords to physically deny access to places where Hitler needed to go to be Chancellor.<BR/><BR/>Putting angels with swords to deny access doesn't interfere in the slightest with free will, because Christians say God never interferes with free will.<BR/><BR/>God has done similar things in the past, so why not with Hitler, when it would have saved so many lives?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6537884998639260952007-03-01T13:22:00.000-05:002007-03-01T13:22:00.000-05:00I have heard atheists say that God could have give...I have heard atheists say that God could have given Hitler a heart attack when young.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure God could have found a better way.<BR/><BR/>David Wood points out that at the age of 12 or 13, Hitler had done nothing deserving of death.<BR/><BR/>A fair point, and one with which most fair-minded people would agree.<BR/><BR/>I wonder why David Wood ,and many other Christians, preach that everybody has done things which deserve death, including Hitler as a child.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38077560241934346292007-03-01T07:47:00.000-05:002007-03-01T07:47:00.000-05:00Thanks, I'll check them out.Thanks, I'll check them out.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75229538217512231482007-02-28T23:11:00.000-05:002007-02-28T23:11:00.000-05:00Probably the most respectful Christian blogger I h...Probably the most respectful Christian blogger I have found is to be found <A HREF="http://tenminasministries.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">here</A>. Tell Ken I said so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-92036259185081123222007-02-28T22:35:00.000-05:002007-02-28T22:35:00.000-05:00I agree with you Mr. Ellis, and I've watched as yo...I agree with you Mr. Ellis, and I've watched as you have engaged them both. We can only do what we can do, and we can only have the patience that we have.<BR/><BR/>There is one Blog shared by an atheist and a Christian in a mutually respectful dialogue, and you can find it <A HREF="http://philaletheia.thetruthtree.com/" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52817608124660992222007-02-28T22:15:00.000-05:002007-02-28T22:15:00.000-05:00dang, I really need to proofread my posts better. ...dang, I really need to proofread my posts better. The above is rough.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69621689172017971632007-02-28T22:14:00.000-05:002007-02-28T22:14:00.000-05:00Then you have greater patience than I. I've given...Then you have greater patience than I. I've given up on him (and Paul too). I don't mind someone disagreeing with me but when my position is repeatedly misrepresented its time to move on.<BR/><BR/>That said, can you recommend a really intellectually honest christian apologist/blogger. I enjoy an intellectual discussion on religion but I really haven't found one yet who's really willing to engage the position of atheists rather than strawman misrepresentations of their views. Its really getting so that I'm thinking the whole endeavor is a waste of time.....except that the christians who have doubts are likely to see how dubious the arguments the arguments of the christian apologists are. And that's well worth it. That's really the only thing that keeps me doing this. I know it would have been a great help to me to read these sorts of discussion during the slow painful two year process of deconversion I went through so many years ago.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75168983726489419672007-02-28T17:44:00.000-05:002007-02-28T17:44:00.000-05:00es, because I like him, it's stimulating to see if...es, because I like him, it's stimulating to see if I can reach him, and if I cannot do so, I will be credited by him with helping him to develop his approach. It's a scholarly thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15411402092503738212007-02-28T17:09:00.000-05:002007-02-28T17:09:00.000-05:00John, I have to wonder, why do you continue to deb...John, I have to wonder, why do you continue to debate David Wood anyway? He obviously is not interested in an honest discussion or consideration of the issue of the POE. His only interest seems to be defending his beliefs at any intellectual cost.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-26029153375462479652007-02-28T16:50:00.001-05:002007-02-28T16:50:00.001-05:00**It presupposes that it would be morally permissi...**It presupposes that it would be morally permissible for God to kill someone for things he hadn't yet done. ** <BR/><BR/>Does that argument really work if God isn't bound by time? Because I thought that the evangelical perspective was that God was 'outside' of time. So, to us, a person hasn't done something immoral. But hasn't that person done something immoral from God's perspective? <BR/><BR/>That also contradicts the other argument I've seen used against God ordering the Israelites to kill other nations -- it was so the other nations didn't corrupt Israel. But that's God being pre-emptive. Even if you use the argument of God ordering that so the children get to Heaven -- that's still God being pre-emptive. <BR/><BR/>The argument can also be turned against the speaker, and I could easily ask, "So it's morally permissable to do nothing while knowing that Hitler will be responsible for that many deaths?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84068286027628656292007-02-28T16:50:00.000-05:002007-02-28T16:50:00.000-05:00Amen, brother.Amen, brother.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com