tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post4581338382149050030..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Biblical Scholarship and The Lord's PrayerUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-34402553844648658942007-10-01T08:35:00.000-04:002007-10-01T08:35:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Kristinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10919733447895465914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25325896374184960172007-09-18T21:40:00.000-04:002007-09-18T21:40:00.000-04:00Excellent little article, John. These are the kin...Excellent little article, John. These are the kinds of questions I wish that more Christians were asking themselves about the Scriptures. I certainly didn't, because I didn't know they were even questions that could BE asked! Great quote from Origen, Prup.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91306974664164970492007-09-18T10:18:00.000-04:002007-09-18T10:18:00.000-04:00I have never read Lost Christianities, but I canno...I have never read <I>Lost Christianities</I>, but I cannot recommend Erhman's earlier book <I>Orhthodox Corruption of Scripture</I> any higher. It is easily one of the best books on Biblical scholarship I have ever read. It is also one of the first I read as a doubting Christian, and it proved beyond doubt that McDowell's, et al, claims that the earilest manuscripts contained only trivial spelling errors is sorely misinformed.HeIsSailinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09154368305822276669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-20530318888536922332007-09-18T02:42:00.000-04:002007-09-18T02:42:00.000-04:00Actually, John, there are several versions of the ...Actually, John, there are several versions of the Lord's Prayer. In my time as a Catholic, we said 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive thos who trespass against us.' We did add 'thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.' On the other hand, the Protestants used the same version, but added 'for thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, world without end' which Catholics did not include.<BR/><BR/>But the interesting thing is that no church seems to pay attention to the preamble where Jesus instructs his followers to pray in isolation, not in a synagogue -- 'church' or 'chapel' would not have had meaning for him. Does this not imply that using this -- in any version --in a 'worship service' of any sort is against Jesus' direct command?Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-74057594299094522572007-09-17T09:22:00.000-04:002007-09-17T09:22:00.000-04:00I don't know how this will add or subtract from th...I don't know how this will add or subtract from this, but I have always been taught and understand the Lords prayer was to show the method we should use to pray. The words wouldn't be as important to have exactly as spoken as would understanding the method used for prayer.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-34377070999923164052007-09-16T13:47:00.000-04:002007-09-16T13:47:00.000-04:00But, John, we have Augustine and Jerome making the...But, John, we have Augustine and Jerome making the same sorts of comments about the manuscripts available to them. (In fact, to show these were not minor differences, Jerome had two readings of 1 Corinthians 15:51, one ending 'but we shall all be changed,' the other 'but we shall NOT all be changed.' Unlike modern translations, Jerome preferred the 'not' version.)<BR/>So even if we have complete manuscripts, how alike are they?Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-2563172328133675832007-09-16T13:05:00.000-04:002007-09-16T13:05:00.000-04:00Actually Prup, we have completed manuscripts begin...Actually Prup, we have completed manuscripts beginning in the 4th century, so you somewhat unnecessarily overstate your case, even if the printing press wasn't invented until the 14th century.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12380708169579773902007-09-16T12:53:00.000-04:002007-09-16T12:53:00.000-04:00First comment from Metzger -- of interest to those...First comment from Metzger -- of interest to those Evangelicals who <B>insist</B> that we have an uncorrupted text of the NT. <BR/><BR/>As early as Origen (c.200 AD) there were problems arising from different texts and copyings of the books. To quote Origen (from page 152 -- I started in the middle and came across this almost at once): 'the differences among the manuscripts [of the Gospels] have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they lengthen or shorten, as they please'. <BR/>(quoting Metzger now) "Besides making comments of a general nature about the text, Origen sought out information (though he did not always utilize this information) concerning variant readings in Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. He observes, for example, that in Matthew's account (xviii. 1) of the disciples' question as to who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, according to some of the manuscripts the Evangelist prefixed the phrase ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῃ + ̑ ὥρᾳ, whereas according to others the expression ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῃ ἡμέρᾳ appears. 2 Similarly, Origen notices the two readings in Heb. ii. 9, 'apart from God' (χωρὶς θεου + ̑) and 'by the grace of God' (χάριτι θεου + ̑), but is not interested in deciding between them, for he finds spiritual significance in both readings."<BR/><BR/>And that was after 100 years, and there were to be 1300 more years of hand-copying.Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88076996493482398532007-09-16T12:29:00.000-04:002007-09-16T12:29:00.000-04:00Ehrman's LOST CHRISTIANITIES should be read alongs...Ehrman's LOST CHRISTIANITIES should be read alongside his LOST SCRIPTURES, because it refers to manuscripts found there repeatedly. (Sadly, I don't have MISQUOTING JESUS since, unlike the other two, it is not available on Questia.com -- which is still the cheapest way to get the others and many similar books. Another interesting one I'm just looking at is THE TEXT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration by Bruce Metzger. I'll undoubtedly use some of the arguments in future comments.<BR/><BR/>(And I'm sorry to be such a 'walking advertisment' for Questia, but it really is the best place to find so many books we refer to here. Statement of interest: Yes, if you join it and use my name, I do get a certain small credit on next year's subscription. So don't use my name if this offends you.)Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.com