tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post4572036521928636483..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: How to Debunk ChristianityUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12881944008673869602010-03-11T04:49:49.001-05:002010-03-11T04:49:49.001-05:00Well said, Breckmin. Diversity of opinion and expr...Well said, Breckmin. Diversity of opinion and expression has been part of Christianity since the year dot. Would you be any more satisfied if all Christians thought alike?Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02154182488672929257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29099212239301695472010-02-21T16:29:18.254-05:002010-02-21T16:29:18.254-05:00What a lot of these believers apparently fail to u...What a lot of these believers apparently fail to understand is that there is no independent criteria for how one should properly interpret the Bible. <br /><br />Every denomination insists that this scripture is literal, that one is allegory; this one is a strict rule, that one is a mere guideline; this one is salient, that one was only relevant for the culture at the time.<br /><br />But without any independent criteria for how the Bible should be interpreted, every one of these interpretations is necessarily arbitrary. Thus Christians, rather than deriving knowledge from the Bible, merely impose their biases upon it.Mike Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04097261108461657167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63999453994137061442010-02-02T07:23:04.610-05:002010-02-02T07:23:04.610-05:00Thanks for the entertainment Gandolf. Appreciate i...Thanks for the entertainment Gandolf. Appreciate it :DRyan Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03062457759746274125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-68772687411419210762010-02-02T05:24:51.003-05:002010-02-02T05:24:51.003-05:00Ryan Peter said... A) These aren't even organi...Ryan Peter said... A) These aren't even organic house churches. House churches and organic models do not have 'headquarters' and the like. Maybe you should look at what 'organic' or an organic model means?<br /><br />When it comes to defining whats organic/house church,i cant help getting the feeling once again christians will be consistant as always.They likely wont agree.This is because they make the game up as they go.Its like a game of bullrush,there is no real rules.Depends on which school you end up at.<br /><br />http://www.housechurchresource.org/<br /><br />This guy seems to agree specially talking about house church.Quote-"term "house church" is about as wide an umbrella as the word "plant".<br /><br />Naturally the new messiah Ryan Peters might like to suggest he can define "organic church" for us,however i still cant help wondering if we might find there will still be very many new messiah`s each claiming they know what "organic church" actually is.<br /><br />Ryan Peter said--"B) The church is said to have been a branch from a Californian (that's America, by the way) church (according to the news report link you provided). They say they 'lost communication'. Begs the question - was there any real relationship in the first place? <br /><br />So what? is there something that prevents those loosing touch with other common churches starting their own house church? ..And if the house church flourishes,can they not open their own church building?.Is there some law that stipulates, house churches must never have its own name or sign outside its front gate?.Are south africans not allowed to interpret themselves what they might consider to be house church? <br /><br />Seems to me house church could simply be a type of splinter group.<br /><br />Ryan Peter said---"C) Hmmm... how far is South Africa from Nigeria again? Oh yes, a few COUNTRIES away. There's a difference between the southern point of Africa and central Africa..."<br /><br />http://www.iheu.org/un-publishes-iheu-statement-witchcraft-africa<br /><br />Ryan Peter this published by the UN suggests quote-- "The age-old belief in the power of witchcraft is still widely held throughout Africa."<br /><br />Throughout Africa it suggests!.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Africa<br /><br />Wikipedia states ."In parts of Southern Africa several hundred people have been killed in witch hunts since 1990"<br /><br />Southern Africa Ryan Peter.<br /><br />Either way no matter what your argument is, this shows up the dangers of faithful superstitions.<br /><br />Ryan Peter said--"Sorry for the frankness, but I think your reply was absurd."<br /><br />I dont mind frankness,infact i much prefer frankness to bullshit.Find it absurd all you wish, its no skin off my nose! ...You see im not the faithful person trying to defend ignorance of superstitious beliefs of faithfulness, that are dangerous and can obviously cause idiots to even kill their families as witches.Gandolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624178234332819107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-80295512203099160372010-02-02T01:18:00.633-05:002010-02-02T01:18:00.633-05:00@ Andreas,
"There is a continuum between a p...@ Andreas,<br /><br />"There is a continuum between a perfect consensus and complete disagreement. A consensus is usually considered to be a sign of maturity, especially in science. IMHO, the chart that John posted does not show a development towards a consensus among christians, quite the opposite..."<br /><br />You're still assuming a consensus must mean an agreement on the same facts or the same beliefs. Why would it? My wife and I live perfectly happy together yet disagree on many things. We retain our individuality while growing and learning together. The sign of maturity in our relationship is our level of unconditional love towards each other and each taking up their specific roles in the marriage more strongly with greater confidence and grace. <br /><br />Unlike Science, the church consists of a network of relationships more than anything else. A consensus does not have to be agreement on doctrine, it would be agreement to continue in the relationship and build, learn and grow together, each fulfilling their role. It's about friendships and family.<br /><br />Remember an eye needs an ear to make a body, but each may have different opinions based on the form of each. An ear may believe the world is all about hearing because it is an ear. Yet it would be wrong. It needs an eye to show it the world is bigger than just hearing. So why should it be a discredit to Christianity that it consists of both eyes and ears who have different opinions? <br /><br />"Ingersoll points out that different people understand the bible in different ways. To a neutral observer, it clearly appears to be the case that the bible simply is not clear on many issues. You have bible verses to back up your position, other christians have other verses to back up their position."<br /><br />From a Christian perspective, the Bible IS unclear on many issues. I won't argue against that. I just don't feel this takes away its credibility. Its purpose is to point us towards belief in Christ, not belief on how the world was made or the dimensions of a hell or even its duration or who is in and who is out and a thousand other irrelevant details to its main purpose.<br /><br />The Genesis story is a picture of this. The tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil was the tree God didn't want us to eat from. We've made knowledge the horse, when relationship is the horse and knowledge comes after. My dad was my dad even before I got to know him. Nothing changed that. Relationship always comes FIRST.<br /><br />"Well, to a neutral observer, it appears that god gave no clear answer on anything. Salvation, original sin, the trinity, atonement - I can´t think of any theological position where there is no fundamental disagreement among christians."<br /><br />There doesn't have to be a consensus of a theological position for there to be unity. Christianity is not a science, and neither should theology be; it is a spirituality that works in relational dynamics. <br /><br />None of the theological words you've presented above have any core relevance to these relationships working or even to belief in Christ. They all could help towards the growth of that relationship, but they are not the starting point neither are they relevant to the main issues of love, grace and faith. I don't have to know a thousand facts to trust someone. This does make trust risky, but trust is ALWAYS risky.<br /><br />Are you sure you take a neutral position? If you're posting around here I would first assume you're taking a skeptical position before you're taking a neutral position. Skepticism is not the same as neutrality.Ryan Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03062457759746274125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8758840677339828232010-02-01T15:18:05.639-05:002010-02-01T15:18:05.639-05:00Finally (I learned this as a Bible student at Bob ...Finally (I learned this as a Bible student at Bob Jones University), if you can convert a person to your way of religious thinking, tell them: <br /><br /><b>There are people <i>frying like bacon in Hell</i> today who believed just like you!</b>Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19005274758591880692010-02-01T12:44:14.633-05:002010-02-01T12:44:14.633-05:00Hey:
The Bible said it. I believe it. And tha...Hey: <br /><br /> <b>The Bible said it. I believe it. And that settles it! <br /><br />No, wait. The Bible said it. That settles it! <i>I don’t have to believe it.</i></b>Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-26088695822125161582010-02-01T11:14:55.650-05:002010-02-01T11:14:55.650-05:00Fact is, in the world of faith, the term False Rel...Fact is, in the world of faith, the term <b>False Religion</b> is a true oxymoron!Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57473743877997136682010-02-01T10:39:55.680-05:002010-02-01T10:39:55.680-05:00Let me quote what an old Fundamental, Bible Believ...Let me quote what an old Fundamental, Bible Believing Baptist told a congregation from the pulpit at a revival: <br /><br /><b><i>I believe the Bible is The Word of God being 100% true and correct from Genesis to Revelation. So if you don’t agree with the Baptist faith and doctrine; you’re not only disagreeing with the Bible, BUT WITH GOD HIMSELF! Hey, don’t get mad at me! I'm just telling you what God’s Word says because THE BIBLE SAID IT AND I BELIEVE IT!</i></b> <br /><br />With that said, isn’t salvation so much simpler now?<br /><br />Isn’t it nice to know only Baptist will be in Heaven while all the other false Christian religions will be in Hell with Satan who created them? LOLHarry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-70296120566048246612010-02-01T09:27:42.935-05:002010-02-01T09:27:42.935-05:00@Ryan:
"I would say you're confusing ...@Ryan:<br /><br />"I would say you're confusing 'unity of the faith' with 'unity of doctrine'."<br />- I would say that there is neither a unity of faith nor a unity of doctrine within christianity. <br /><br />"You are also confusing maturity with every-one-believes-the-same-one-size-fits-all doctrine."<br />- There is a continuum between a perfect consensus and complete disagreement. A consensus is usually considered to be a sign of maturity, especially in science. IMHO, the chart that John posted does not show a development towards a consensus among christians, quite the opposite...<br /><br />"Ingersoll's quote seems to miss this point too. What if the point is not WHAT you believe but WHO you believe? I believe that IS the point."<br />- Ingersoll points out that different people understand the bible in different ways. To a neutral observer, it clearly appears to be the case that the bible simply is not clear on many issues. You have bible verses to back up your position, other christians have other verses to back up their position. <br /><br />"What if God deliberately didn't give all the answers so that we wouldn't have them, which forces us to put our faith in Him rather than put our faith in what we believe."<br />- Well, to a neutral observer, it appears that god gave no clear answer on anything. Salvation, original sin, the trinity, atonement - I can´t think of any theological position where there is no fundamental disagreement among christians.<br /><br />"If Breckmin believes what you say he does, he and I can have a conversation around how he expects people who can't read or who have no access to the Bible in their language to be saved."<br />- You would not need to have a conservation about this at all if the Bible would give clear answers or if the holy spirit would actually exist and aid Christians in understanding the Bible. <br />To me as a neutral observer, your theological position is just as arbitrary as his - I think your version of christianity is much more likeable / fair, but that does not mean that your faith is any more reasonable.Andreashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976937952332596591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15935322622810610512010-02-01T08:29:15.959-05:002010-02-01T08:29:15.959-05:00@ Andreas
"The amount of different theologic...@ Andreas<br /><br />"The amount of different theological positions definitely increases over time, some of those differences are minor and can be bridged, but some are fundamental and can hardly be called "periphery issues". Many Born-again christians like Breckmin even go so far as to believe that millions of their fellow christians will not be saved because they got the message of the bible on salvation all wrong. Salvation seems like a key-issue to me...<br />The quote from Robert G. Ingersoll in Johns post hits the nail on the head."<br /><br />I would say you're confusing 'unity of the faith' with 'unity of doctrine'. You are also confusing maturity with every-one-believes-the-same-one-size-fits-all doctrine.<br /><br />Maturity has to do with relating to each other in love even when we believe different things - that's what I mean by maturing.<br /><br />Ingersoll's quote seems to miss this point too. What if the point is not WHAT you believe but WHO you believe? I believe that IS the point. Christianity is about FAITH in Jesus Christ, which means a trust and reliance on a person, even when we doubt and simply don't know.<br /><br />Of course, you have to probably believe the person is God to have that much faith in Him to give you eternal life, but you can't put the cart before the horse. The horse is believing in Him, faith and grace.<br /><br />What if God deliberately didn't give all the answers so that we wouldn't have them, which forces us to put our faith in Him rather than put our faith in what we believe. You couldn't say it was unfair, because salvation depends on FAITH and God's GRACE, not on KNOWLEDGE. That's what the Bible says and what Christianity has always claimed, even when Christians have missed the point themselves. In fact, if this is the case, Christianity is brilliant news because you can be saved even if you are ignorant to good doctrine! This is the difference between religion and relationship.<br /><br />If Breckmin believes what you say he does, he and I can have a conversation around how he expects people who can't read or who have no access to the Bible in their language to be saved. We could also talk around what he sees the word 'faith' means. He would have a hard time convincing me he is not a Gnostic, because it sounds as if he's salvation depends on knowledge, not faith and grace. But I'll let him speak for himself.Ryan Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03062457759746274125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55920247237410896342010-02-01T07:49:55.443-05:002010-02-01T07:49:55.443-05:00Sorry for the double post :( Got a firefox error o...Sorry for the double post :( Got a firefox error or something and it posted twice.Ryan Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03062457759746274125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61851756828087548722010-02-01T07:48:59.533-05:002010-02-01T07:48:59.533-05:00@ Gandolf
"Evidence of organic maturing Afri...@ Gandolf<br /><br />"Evidence of organic maturing African christian house church http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33356826/"<br /><br />I don't even know if it's worth responding to you.<br /><br />A) These aren't even organic house churches. House churches and organic models do not have 'headquarters' and the like. Maybe you should look at what 'organic' or an organic model means?<br /><br />B) The church is said to have been a branch from a Californian (that's America, by the way) church (according to the news report link you provided). They say they 'lost communication'. Begs the question - was there any real relationship in the first place? <br /><br />C) Hmmm... how far is South Africa from Nigeria again? Oh yes, a few COUNTRIES away. There's a difference between the southern point of Africa and central Africa...<br /><br />Sorry for the frankness, but I think your reply was absurd.Ryan Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03062457759746274125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87324632169300605532010-02-01T06:40:00.541-05:002010-02-01T06:40:00.541-05:00@Ryan:
"In the old days, people would form a ...@Ryan:<br />"In the old days, people would form a denomination around a specific belief. These days, people with differing beliefs can function within the same group of churches because the relationship between those churches is seen as more important than periphery issues."<br />- The amount of different theological positions definitely increases over time, some of those differences are minor and can be bridged, but some are fundamental and can hardly be called "periphery issues". Many Born-again christians like Breckmin even go so far as to believe that millions of their fellow christians will not be saved because they got the message of the bible on salvation all wrong. Salvation seems like a key-issue to me...<br />The quote from Robert G. Ingersoll in Johns post hits the nail on the head.<br /><br />@Harvey:<br />"Well if there's so much confusion over being a Christian, then how in the heck can an atheist criticize it or anyone who claims to be such?"<br />- Read Johns original post and this should become clear to you.Andreashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976937952332596591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-80511785724286324452010-02-01T05:41:35.282-05:002010-02-01T05:41:35.282-05:00Ryan Peter said..."It seems to me, living in ...Ryan Peter said..."It seems to me, living in South Africa, that we tend to get along a lot easier than those in America."<br /><br />"The church is moving to an organic model across the world with house churches etc. and many different types of movements and this is surely a sign of maturing."<br /><br />"Doesn't that prove my point of 'maturing'?"<br /><br />--------------------------<br /><br /><br />Evidence of organic maturing African christian house church http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33356826/Gandolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624178234332819107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55855231090852870632010-02-01T03:45:03.254-05:002010-02-01T03:45:03.254-05:00@Andreas
"It would be indeed very interestin...@Andreas<br /><br />"It would be indeed very interesting if the huge number of different christian denominations / different theological positions is a sign of "immaturity". Since the number of christian denominations increases over time, Christianity is obviously becoming more and more "immature" with each passing year, or do you disagree ?"<br /><br />I disagree. The nature of denominations is changing, and you must not confuse a movement / a circle of relationships for a denomination.<br /><br />Denominations are mostly institutional, whereas a HUGE part of the church these days functions on relational models, ie. our church is accountable to another church because of the relationship leaders have with each other. The church is moving to an organic model across the world with house churches etc. and many different types of movements and this is surely a sign of maturing.<br /><br />In the old days, people would form a denomination around a specific belief. These days, people with differing beliefs can function within the same group of churches because the relationship between those churches is seen as more important than periphery issues. <br /><br />Because I am friends with Bob next door makes it natural that I'm going to work with Bob more than Ted who lives three blocks away. That is not a sign of division, that's just how relationships work. However, if I criticise Ted for what he believes even when I don't even know him at all, that's a sign of immaturity and causes division.<br /><br />I don't know which part of the world you live in, but it is also important that one realises that the American church and Western church have problems that the rest of the world doesn't have. Of course, churches in other parts of the world have other problems. <br /><br />It seems to me, living in South Africa, that we tend to get along a lot easier than those in America. Even with our apartheid past. Your critique of the church could be flipped to show that perhaps your general western culture is what causes schism and elitism, although one would obviously have to be careful when talking about that as my culture has its own problems too.<br /><br />But it does seem to me that a lot of the elitism I've encountered within the church is an American problem. One South African pastor I know who is working in America to help get churches to work together was told by an American pastor once that, "I know what you're teaching is biblical, but this is America and it won't fly here." A lot can be said of how the American church has moulded itself so closely to the American flag that it's hard to distinguish one from the other, much to its own detriment.<br /><br />The point is that you must not be too hasty to see the church's division as some sort of way to debunk Christianity. The division may actually be a problem with your western culture, not the church as a whole, and can you blame it if Christians find themselves swept in to the prevailing culture? <br /><br />@John <br /><br />"The Church of Christ Chart was updated in 2006, and lookee here, there is no indication that the other denominations are doomed. Hmmm, Christians becomes more and more liberal as the years go by, don't they? ;-)"<br /><br />Doesn't that prove my point of 'maturing'?Ryan Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03062457759746274125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7593327909530286102010-02-01T02:24:48.164-05:002010-02-01T02:24:48.164-05:00Yes. And like lettuce, it's mostly water.Yes. And like lettuce, it's mostly water.Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04547766582911955996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32018532915537894932010-02-01T02:18:26.402-05:002010-02-01T02:18:26.402-05:00Greg, I once expressed the search for the reality ...Greg, I once expressed the search for the reality of a Biblical God as an analogy like this:<br /><br />Truth in Christianity is like a head of lettuce. The outer most leaves that are loose yellow-brown can be stripped off as almost worthless (latest man made theology added on to Christianity. Creedal layers). <br /><br />Next, and what appears more authentic, are the dark green leaves bound a little tighter and considered more valuable (The teachings of the early church and apostles about who Jesus was, but it is still man made theology). <br /><br />Next are the tighter light green leaves of the lettuce head as we deeper toward the center (latest prophetical books of the Bible, but still man made theology). <br /><br />We can continue to pull apart the lettuce head of Biblical time and tradition as we force our way towards the lettuce’s tightly bound white inner leaves hoping to find a real authentic core with a real functioning God and His heavenly truth. <br /><br />Fact is, after pulling apart everything from the easiest to pull off outer most yellow-brown leaves and moving on all the way to the tightly bound inner most pure white lettuce leaves, all we’ll ever find (once the complete heard of lettuce is totally pulled apart and all the individual leaves are laid out on the table) is that nothing is left but the many individual leaves themselves representing layer upon layer of time and tradition marking the passing opinions of men (and some women) who claim to know and speak for a concept called “God”.<br /><br />Little wonder the Biblical god is described to look and act like men. It is they who created him and it is they who keep him alive and kicking via theology!Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-68744207708263024072010-02-01T01:18:30.453-05:002010-02-01T01:18:30.453-05:00There's also the issue of the little personal ...There's also the issue of the little personal schisms each believer carries with them that they don't articulate or assume that is orthodoxy. <br /><br />How does a believer know what is god and what is his or her minister's idiosyncrasies or poor scholarship, or an idea smuggled in from pop culture, or the theological creep of ideas from another faith, or artifacts of their material well-being, or confusion of national myths or simple aesthetics? Even sects that claim simplicity have an agenda, and are as arrogant and as worldly as the Megachurch with the Starbuck's in the lobby.<br /><br />What percentage of what you worship is god, and what is the accretion of 2,000 years of cultural plague?<br /><br />The fact that hundreds of earnest books on theology and apologetics and conduct are published each year, with the idea of clarifying and sharpening belief for thousands of discrete, disparate faith communities shows us that nobody knows nothing about nothing.<br /><br />(My word verification was "fundies")Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04547766582911955996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88522284148887485952010-02-01T00:34:47.969-05:002010-02-01T00:34:47.969-05:00Harvey,
Depending on how wide and inclusive your...Harvey, <br /><br />Depending on how wide and inclusive your definition of Christianity, and your view of the sacraments, there's other Christians who view you as a heretic, and who may find your views either dangerous and false or damnable. <br /><br />The point is that Christians have refused to worship with each other, even excommunicated each other (as the western and eastern halves of the Roman Empire did around 1000 CE, the Catholics excommunicating all the Orthodox and vice versa). And have continued to break with one another, calling each other's views anathema, right down to the Southern Baptists, Southern Presbyterians and Southern Methodists breaking with all of their northern brethren in the U.S. in order to form their own churches over the issue of whether or not ministers ought to own slaves. <br /><br />I know someone whose parents attended three different churches as he grew up because of three schisms that took place in each new church congregation that they had joined. That person left the faith of his parents for a moderate Evangelical view and they remain disappointed in their son's interpretation of Christianity. <br /><br />As for what various groups think about Jesus, there are millions of Pentecostals in one branch of Pentecostalism today who do not believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is God (see the info at the Religious Tolerance website).<br /><br />There's primitive Baptists and also some Jewish-Christian groups today who do not believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is God. There are Unitarians and Jews who do not believe Jesus is God. And there were Arians in the past and Arian-like religions today who believe Jesus is divine but in a limited sense, the first of God's creations, his "word" but not fully equal to God. <br /><br />There's also Christians in mainstream denominations and other denominations who accept the Apostles Creed but don't interpret the resurrection and ascension in a literal bodily manner. <br /><br />Harvey, tell me really matters? That a person believe specific things? Christians declared Origen a heretic. He was a church father, became a heretic. Tertullian, another church father, left the Orthodox church of his day. Luther wound up fighting the church he tried to help reform, declaring the papacy the AntiChrist.Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22714450236840770142010-01-31T23:46:15.264-05:002010-01-31T23:46:15.264-05:00Well if there's so much confusion over being a...Well if there's so much confusion over being a Christian, then how in the heck can an atheist criticize it or anyone who claims to be such?<br /><br />Do YOU know what a Christian believes? Obviously not!<br /><br />You never pointed out what anyone believes about Jesus. Those who believe that he is less than or not God are certainly not Christian. How can they be?<br /><br />Most of what you discuss is about Christian practice not Christian orthodoxy to begin with. So what's the point?District Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69598014153574798282010-01-31T21:23:26.449-05:002010-01-31T21:23:26.449-05:00@Breckmin:
""wishing it" is evas...@Breckmin: <br />""wishing it" is evasive to all of the reasons we know their is a Creator through scientific observation such as biological information which is clearly a code,"<br />- 1. "Information" and "Code" are two different concepts. <br />2. Macromolecules which contain the information to carry out a specific molecular function do not require a "Creator". They don´t even require evolution! This has been shown in many experiments, Jack Szostaks group for example generated proteins which specifically bind ATP by screening a *random* cDNA library (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v410/n6829/full/410715a0.html - if you can´t access the paper, I´d be happy to send it to you). Similar experiments have been carried out to produce Ribozymes capable of self-cleavage or RNA synthesis. So, random collisions of molecules are already sufficient to produce polymers with specific molecular functions (these functions can of course be altered or optimized by some rounds of selection - this is frequently used in Biotechnology and is in many cases actually superior to rational design by human experts). <br /><br />"and complex mechanical working systems such as then nano-factories of living cells, and even IF-THEN algorithmic programming we see in gene regulation of the Lac operon (E.coli)."<br />- It actually is much more complex than that. Even in prokaryotic gene regulation you already see phenomena which cannot be described with simple if-then statements (such as harmonic oscillators e.g.). Guess what happens with lacZ-deletion strains of E. coli when they are grown on a lactose-rich medium - they evolve a new operon of course, which has been studied in the lab (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1201865/pdf/335.pdf). <br /><br />"It is through scientific observation that we make the first step toward truth - which is agnostic theism."<br />- Well, excuse me but... you don´t seem to know very much about these "scientific observations", so maybe your "first step towards agnostic theism" was a little too early. <br /><br /><br />"Thank you for this very good question. IF you are struggling with "what one would have to do" then you are struggling with soteriology and not just logical punishment for exact offenses and eternal separation which is multi-faceted and can not be isolated."<br />- You did not answer my question. Let me rephrase it. I am living in a small city in the western part of germany, there are two churches near my home, lets call them church A and B. <br />If I go to church A, they would tell me that hell is just a metaphor and that it doesn´t matter that I don´t believe in Jesus because I could still accept him as my saviour after I died. If I go to church B however, they would tell me that I have to accept Jesus Christ as my savior during my lifetime or my soul would be annihilated after my dead. Members of both churches have plenty of bible verses to back up their position. Would you say that this is a disagreement on "peripheral theology" ? <br /><br />"Still, a born-again Christian can temporarly fall into LDS or even Jehovah's Witnesses until God is faithful to redeem him out of such false beliefs.<br /><br />It ALL comes back to the Faithfulness and the Grace of God."<br />- Well, since the overwhelming majority of the people who ever lived have not been born-again christians, God doesn´t seem to care to much about those false beliefs. Apparently Gods Grace is extremely limited and mostly reserved for white american people.Andreashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976937952332596591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77913164433002622852010-01-31T21:04:57.456-05:002010-01-31T21:04:57.456-05:00busterggi said...
"In his or her heart each C...busterggi said...<br />"In his or her heart each Christian knows that he or she is the only REAL Christian."<br /><br />This reminds me of Garrison Keillor - "Every July tomato thinks it is the only tomato." <br /><br />"Eternal Hell and separation is logical" - Wow. Wow wow wow. If you could even say "logical" about any of it, out of the whole mess that is the least logical part of all. The mental gymnastics required to reconcile a loving omnipotent God with eternal hell and separation - when according to the story he made the rules, he gave us free will, he either saw or ordained what we would do with it, he made hell, he can change our hearts for god's sake. He hardened the Pharoah's heart and softened Saul's. If any of us don't believe it is his doing too. It's his frickin' game! And so you pretend that he is helpless to effect evil, even that done in his name, or helpless in the face of my little "I don't see any evidence for gods." <br /><br />If any of it were true, salvation for all is much more logical. Jesus' blood would cover all. We are condemned to suffering and damnation because of things mostly out of our control? That isn't logical at all.MaryLynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18098725938267871683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43275327123229961832010-01-31T18:55:21.683-05:002010-01-31T18:55:21.683-05:00"The question whether eternal punishment exis..."The question whether eternal punishment exists and what one would have to do in order to avoid it is "peripheral theology" ?"<br /><br />Thank you for this very good question. IF you are struggling with "what one would have to do" then you are struggling with soteriology and not just logical punishment for exact offenses and eternal separation which is multi-faceted and can not be isolated.<br /><br />Universalism and Mormonism are quite different from Catholicism which is historically orthodox.<br /><br />Still, a born-again Christian can temporarly fall into LDS or even Jehovah's Witnesses until God is faithful to redeem him out of such false beliefs.<br /><br />It ALL comes back to the Faithfulness and the Grace of God.<br /><br />It is not fair. No one (with logic) ever said it could be somehow "fair" since everyone is born under completely different circumstances).Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8717658996599953842010-01-31T18:47:56.491-05:002010-01-31T18:47:56.491-05:00"The Bible saying so, and you wishing it does..."The Bible saying so, and you wishing it does not make it factual."<br /><br />The bible is a collection of multiple sources over more than a thousand years with different authors all testifying to the same thing.<br /><br />There was no "bible" in print available to the masses until the printing press for around 1600 years after the birth of Jesus...<br /><br />STILL the truth of the Logic of God spread throughout the world and the knowledge of the Creator existed independent of "the bible."<br /><br />The details of the logic of God are indeed revealed through the prophets and apostles who represented the truth of God to the nation of Israel and to the church...however - they still had truth even before Moses wrote the majority of the Torah.<br /><br />"wishing it" is evasive to all of the reasons we know their is a Creator through scientific observation such as biological information which is clearly a code, and complex mechanical working systems such as then nano-factories of living cells, and even IF-THEN algorithmic programming we see in gene regulation of the Lac operon (E.coli).<br />It is through scientific observation that we make the first step toward truth - which is agnostic theism.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.com