tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post4518006582770202043..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: What Do You Mean? ChallengeUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27230262525790170122007-10-12T22:36:00.000-04:002007-10-12T22:36:00.000-04:00What else would it be based on...?A religion whose...<I>What else would it be based on...?</I><BR/><BR/>A religion whose promises <B>did</B> pan out.<BR/><BR/>Are there any of those out there?Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10322177774776176252007-10-12T22:26:00.000-04:002007-10-12T22:26:00.000-04:00Bahnsen said: This is not only evasive (for it see...Bahnsen said: <I>This is not only evasive (for it seeks to trivialize or even ignore the failure rate of gospel promises)...</I><BR/><BR/>It's not evasive, it's simply a point I was making. Salvation is the ultimate gift God can give and it's also the ultimate end Christians pray for.<BR/><BR/><I>...it is problematically worrisome from the standpoint of the believer who truly wants to trust in the promise of salvation.</I><BR/><BR/>"Trusting" in the promise of salvation is fine, but as Scripture attests to, more is required (baptism, etc.)<BR/><BR/><I>"but how do we know that this means anything more than that he simply *believes* something to be the case when in actuality it is just a wish?"</I><BR/><BR/>You could probably just ask me.<BR/><BR/><I>But the claim to be “saved from my sins” is a mere assertion, with no objective facts to back it up.</I><BR/><BR/>Why does anyone need to back it up?<BR/><BR/><I>If Joe Blow comes up and says “I’ve been saved from my sins and my book has been indelibly inked into the Book of Life!” how do I know that he’s not just imagining based on the inputs of a storybook whose other promises never pan out?</I><BR/><BR/>What else would it be based on...?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31750771369000962642007-10-12T18:05:00.000-04:002007-10-12T18:05:00.000-04:00Hi again Shy! I understand that my influence is r...Hi again Shy! I understand that my influence is rejected by you, but you and the rest here are well worth the risk of rejection and reproach . Thanks! Warmest regards, MMMManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40185073229970179572007-10-12T14:38:00.000-04:002007-10-12T14:38:00.000-04:00God doesn't enable me or reward me for pursuing/co...<I>God doesn't enable me or reward me for pursuing/cooperating with those things that will ultimately cause me to devalue myself or others.</I><BR/><BR/>Very true. He also doesn't enable you or reward you for pursuing/cooperating with those things that will ultimately cause me to <B>value</B> myself or others. In fact, so far as anyone here has been able to show me, he doesn't really do much of ANYTHING.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62894378985278674542007-10-12T14:24:00.000-04:002007-10-12T14:24:00.000-04:00I am learning to trust God. He isn't under compuls...I am learning to trust God. He isn't under compulsion to prove or justify Himself nor does He expect me to be - for me, that is the ultimate and precious reward of a faithful life. God doesn't enable me or reward me for pursuing/cooperating with those things that will ultimately cause me to devalue myself or others. Thanks so much!Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38933616640239527952007-10-12T08:42:00.000-04:002007-10-12T08:42:00.000-04:00Above commenter Jason had stated: "The answered pr...Above commenter Jason had stated: "The answered prayer of salvation trumps anything and everything." This is not only evasive (for it seeks to trivialize or even ignore the failure rate of gospel promises), it is problematically worrisome from the standpoint of the believer who truly wants to trust in the promise of salvation. If Jesus cannot be trusted to come through on other promises whose outcome can be objectively verified (such as growing the limb of an amputee back), given the promises inserted into his mouth by the gospels which have been cited in this discussion, how can one trust his promise of salvation, which is not subject to objective verification? Jason can say of himself, “I am saved,” but how do we know that this means anything more than that he simply *believes* something to be the case when in actuality it is just a wish? On the other hand, if a believer went up to Mt. Shasta and commanded it to remove itself from the face of the earth, and – in accordance with Mt. 17:20 – Jesus remained faithful to the promise attributed to him and the mountain disappeared, then the mountain would no longer be there and we’d have uncontestable proof of the power of Jesuine promises. We’ve have something objective to point to at this point. But the claim to be “saved from my sins” is a mere assertion, with no objective facts to back it up. If Joe Blow comes up and says “I’ve been saved from my sins and my book has been indelibly inked into the Book of Life!” how do I know that he’s not just <A HREF="http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2007/07/role-of-imagination-in-christian-god.html" REL="nofollow">imagining</A> based on the inputs of a storybook whose other promises never pan out? And if it’s sure that some of those promises cannot be trusted, how can we trust any of them?<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11337736173432132752007-10-11T22:43:00.000-04:002007-10-11T22:43:00.000-04:00Bro. Crow, thanks for issuing this challenge. If ...Bro. Crow, thanks for issuing this challenge. If any of you Christians are reading this and are in the process of questioning your faith, I hope you will read every one of the Scriptures that have been brought up--by commentators on both sides. Decided for yourself who is being honest and consistent with their interpretation of Scripture. Take one of the 100's of promises in the Bible--pick any of them you like--and really put it to the test. Pray the way Jesus taught you to pray and see what happens. Like the Scriptures commands, test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21). All means all, right?--including God's own promises (Psalm 84:8-9). So get on your knees now and pray...pray for peace in Iraq, protection for school children everywhere, a cure for cancer, relief for the battered woman next door, deliverance for molested children. Pray, believing you have received what you pray for (Mark 11:14; cf. Matt. 18:19, 21:22; John 15:7,17; James 1:5-6; 1 John 3:22). Surely no Christian can object to this test. It is thoroughly Biblical.<BR/><BR/>If the promises hold to be true, wonderful. But if you take the Bible's promises at face value and fine that they just don't pan out, consider that maybe, just maybe, you're faith is misplaced.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41482331247967835072007-10-11T19:50:00.000-04:002007-10-11T19:50:00.000-04:00Well, I wrote this post, and now, down here, 77 co...Well, I wrote this post, and now, down here, 77 comments later...and wow, what do we have? Basically, some christians have told us that the promise in John 14:14, echoed in several other passages throughout old and new testament, is not to be taken literally...for a number of reasons, such as context, meaning, yada yada. And of course the tired old excuse of "not according to God's will" or the best one..."you really don't have enough faith." How much is enough, I wonder?<BR/><BR/>After reading all the posts, responding to a few, trying really to be open-minded (and seriously not expecting the argument to be..."well, Jesus did not really mean that, his statement was not meant to be taken as directed to us and being literal")...I have come this conclusion. <BR/><BR/>BULLSHIT! I am calling BS on the christians. God said it, that settles it, yeh! <BR/><BR/>If you feel that you can seriously write off this passage in its intent, and there is no problem, then you certainly must see that there is therefore no problem in anyone - including us - writing off passages such as "no one can come to the father except through me," "Jesus is Lord", "God is love", etc.etc. <BR/><BR/>Which, by the way, I have hundreds of thousands of others have done. Oh, but wait, we didn't really have a real relationship with Jesus...did we?Don Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10624128241297548817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63067015654016606822007-10-11T13:54:00.000-04:002007-10-11T13:54:00.000-04:00I'm reminded of the tune by Danny Barker - "Nothin...I'm reminded of the tune by Danny Barker - "Nothing fails like prayer." Deep down, even Christians themselves realize that prayer has no efficacy in the world. It might make them feel good, it might temporarily assuage their guilt, it might bolster their faith in invisible magic beings. But as Caleb pointed out, it won't get amputated limbs to grow back. <BR/><BR/>Over a year ago, Aaron Kinney over on <A HREF="http://killtheafterlife.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">Kill the Afterlife</A> posted a call for believers to pray for my ailing vision. See his blog <A HREF="http://killtheafterlife.blogspot.com/2006/08/operation-pray-dawsons-way-to-2020.html" REL="nofollow">Operation: Pray Dawson's Way to 20/20 Vision</A>. Here I am, over a year later, and still in need of corrective lenses. The gospels have several accounts where Jesus was able to restore eyesight to people who were completely blind (cf. Mk 8:22-26, 10:49-52, Lk. 4:18, 7:21-22, 18:35-43, ). These people were not merely suffering from bad eyesight like I have, they were blind, even from birth (per John 9:1). Also, these people whose blindness had been cured were not portrayed as being any of Jesus' disciples; many of these stories treat the blind men as if they were just randomly encountered along a roadside, for instance, as Jesus and his band of groupies paraded by. They simply asked Jesus for their eyesight to be restored, and - according to the storybook - their vision had been restored just for the asking. Now I have asked for this, but my vision has not been restored to 20/20. And I've asked that believers who really believe pray to Jesus to have my vision restored to 20/20, but either they haven't been praying, or their prayers have been ineffectual. Can it be that believers have not made this prayer request to Jesus? Are they afraid that Jesus will fail? <BR/><BR/>Now, if the gospel is just an ancient legend, and there really is no Jesus listening for and answering prayers from the faithful, then we would expect that a prayer for restored eyesight should be ineffectual and my poor vision persists. If Jesus were real, however, why would he not restore my vision? Many believers have told me that Jesus wants us to "have faith." But what better opportunity for Jesus to work in my life and give me solid basis for having faith than restoring my eyesight, as biblical precedent portrays in the gospel stories? <BR/><BR/>My guess is that believers will come up with some excuse for their Jesus' AWOL status, and even try to find a way to blame the problem on me rather than question their belief in the storybook. That's the standard habit that I've encountered in my experience with believers.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90545587265241187612007-10-11T11:31:00.000-04:002007-10-11T11:31:00.000-04:00So jason, let me get this straight--you're saying ...So jason, let me get this straight--you're saying that God does <B>nothing</B> for believers, which is <B>exactly</B> what He promised to do?<BR/><BR/>Yeah, next mission trip you should DEFINITELY go with that line.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78269404024543696742007-10-11T10:08:00.000-04:002007-10-11T10:08:00.000-04:00Joseph,I really don't see anythng of value in your...Joseph,<BR/><BR/>I really don't see anythng of value in your long [and tedious] post except insults to hide your confusion, a general misunderstanding of context and a refusal to accept that such a context exists. The verse in Acts 1:4 serves my point quite well. This promise was originally given to the disciples in John 14, a chapter you're demanding Christians unquestionably accept as applying to them today. However the condition of receiving this promise is laid out in Acts 1:4 and it's a condition that's already come and gone, fulfilled by the disciples themselves. So what now? We've got a verse that applies to Christians and a verse that doesn't but both verses must work together in order for the the promise to be given. Uh oh...<BR/><BR/>Regarding the concept of prayer, your paraphrase of James 1:6 is horrible. Read it again because it's rather important: "For let <B>not</B> that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;" Your 'assuming' theory just took a hit.<BR/><BR/>Even your Phil 4:19 is interpreted incorrectly. The 'riches in glory' are never material blessings, as a simple Bible word search will confirm.<BR/><BR/>Your 1 John 5:14 reference is a good one. I like the phrase "according to His will". Just another reason why we shouldn't assume our prayers will be answered.<BR/><BR/>It's been fun :)Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78026362102885254132007-10-11T02:21:00.000-04:002007-10-11T02:21:00.000-04:00Jason, as I said to Jennifer, so say I now unto yo...Jason, as I said to Jennifer, so say I now unto you: this will be my last post on this topic. I will respond to your last, rather tedious, post first. This may be my longest yet, but please don't skim.<BR/><BR/>Jason said: "I find using common sense really helps." Finally, something we can both agree on! It was common sense that made me realize that John 14:14, Phil. 4:19, and 1 John 5:14-15 (among other Biblical promises) are nothing more than wishful thinking at best, a cruel joke at worst. Christians like you don't even take them seriously. You just haven't had the courage to come out with in the open with all your doubts, but your interpretation of Scripture betrays you. <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "When Christ told Peter that he would deny him three times, I don't assume Jesus is talking to 'all of Christ's disciples.'" No duh. Historically, however, the church HAS adopted the TEACHINGS of Christ. Yet, you artificially dissect Jesus' teachings when it suits your purposes. For the life of me, I don't get how you separate: "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:14) from "If you love me, you will obey what I command" (John 14:15). Jesus said both of them in the same breath while he was in teaching mode. The church has always accepted the practical application of this chapter. The apostle John echoes BOTH the promise and the command in his first letter to Christians (see 1 John 5:3,14-15). Oh, but you reject John 14:14 and 1 John 5:14-15, because it is testable and, thus, can be falsified. John 14:15 and 1 John 5:3 you accept because it is in your power to fulfill. In other words, your faith is in yourself not the promises of Scripture. You are not far from the kingdom of infidels. <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "Nope, I’m not saying at all. Trying clarifying again." You've got to be kidding. Not a big fan of guessing games.<BR/><BR/>Jason said: "However, I'm not 'ignoring' the promises of John 14, I'm simply attributing them to their proper audience." Oh, and the proper context for the Pauline letters again is which audience? They certainly weren't written to you! But your hermeneutic is only valid to the teaching passages you pick and choose, right? <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "It's no different then Christ promising to send a Comforter after his ascension. It should be rather apparent that this promise was meant solely for the disciples." Oh really? You don't believe the Comforter was promised to all believers? I know an awful lot of evangelical ministers who would disagree. I expect you to adequately correct your pastor the next time he preaches about the Holy Spirit using John 14 as his text.<BR/><BR/>BTW, The Philippians 4:19 scripture, in its context, is referring to physical/material blessings that God will supply out of his riches in glory. <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "People die all the time while they’re waiting for God but in comparison to the life God has promised the faithful believers, this life is nothing." What a pathetically sad and stupid statement. This life is nothing, huh? Suffering is nothing? Evil is nothing? Oh yeah, right, because we've got this mythical afterlife to look forward to, when we'll finally get to say hello to the Man Upstairs who did nothing to intervene in this hell hole of ours to make a practical, lasting difference. Now I know where they get that saying, "Christians are so heavenly minded that they're no earthly good."<BR/><BR/>Jason said: "The answered prayer of salvation trumps anything and everything." Oh really? I'm sorry you think so. While you are basking in your spiritual high, there are some grave, real-world problems out there than need attention ("God, are you up there? We could really use some help. You know, whenever you get around to it.") BTW, if you don't take the promises of God relative to prayer seriously, then why in God's name would you take the promises of salvation seriously? <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "Therefore, you’re placing your own condition on the prayer – it must be answered immediately" Let me ask you something: when you prayed to be saved, did you expect to be saved immediately? What's so bad about expecting an answer to prayer? Nothing. That's the way Jesus taught us to pray. Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, BELIEVE THAT YOU RECEIVE THEM, and you will have them." In other words, pretend like it's a done deal. But what's up with all these Christians praying for an END to AIDS, slavery, the sex trade, world hunger, terrorism, senseless violence, etc. They should listen to you, Jason, not Jesus and definitely NOT expect God to answer ANY of their prayers within their lifetime. What a crock. You're covering up a weak and shallow faith, Jason, propped up by caveats and excuses. <BR/><BR/>Now, I want you to READ CAREFULLY what comes next, because it's illustrative of your poor debating skills. <BR/><BR/>Jason: "Here’s my favourite part: [a] 'If God doesn't answer even THESE prayers when the conditions are met, then what is he good for?' Therefore, [b] "When God doesn’t respond within your timeframe, you claim your prayer hasn’t been answered and walk away in a huff." Now, when you look at those two statements, labeled (a) and (b), is (a)=(b)? NO, (a) is not equal to (b). Learn to read, it will save you a lot of embarrassment. <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "Sounds like you’re trying to remove ‘selfishness’ as a condition of God answering prayer." Jesus wasn't opposed to "selfish" prayer in the sense of asking for our needs. In fact, he taught his disciples (re: the church) to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread." How selfish is that? You grossly misinterpreted James 4:3--he's speaking of sinful lusts, not requests for basic needs. So then it wouldn't be wrong to pray when you're in an emergency situation, after all...would it? Nor (for that matter) would it be wrong to pray in faith, believing you had received it, as Jesus directed you to do....would it? I've got you pinned on this one, buddy. Might as well cry, "Uncle!"<BR/><BR/>Jason said: "If you think 'anticipation' is the same as 'assume', then yes, that's right." So, you're redefining faith to suit your argument, huh? According to Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is being SURE of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see." It is both anticipation AND assumption. Of course, according to you, being sure implies that you are selfishly putting God on a rigid delivery schedule. <BR/><BR/>Earlier, Hebrews 4:16 says, "Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence [the KJV reads "boldness"], so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need." Sounds like someone's being pretty presumptuous, here--approaching the throne of God with confidence, boldness, assurance. Expecting help in (notice) his "TIME OF NEED." Did someone say "time?" Oh, we can't hold God to intervene in our time of need. No sir.... <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "Only if you don’t bother reading the very next verse: 'For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.'" Exactly. You just helped me prove my point. James says, "Ask in faith and don't doubt or you won't receive anything." So, you have to assume you will receive what you ask for, right? And, by direct implication, if you ask in faith you will receive what you ask for (echoing John 14:14). <BR/><BR/>Jason: "You said: 'Either a person will follow your example, Jason, and relegate all of the Bible's teachings to historical irrelevance.' Therefore, where did I say I relegate 'all' of the Bible’s teachings to 'historical irrelevance'?" Again, learn to read. I didn't claim to quote you directly, I merely drew an implication based on your use of hermeneutics. You can just forget about that red herring, it's getting you nowhere. <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "We’re not discussing history, Joseph, we’re discussing the spiritual and practical applications of specific verses for 21st century believers." LOL! Precisely! You're the one who assigned John 14:14 to a specific time and place in history, with NO "spiritual and practical applications" for modern believers. Your credulity amazes me sometimes.<BR/><BR/>Jason said (finally--the end!): "Acts 1:4 – Should or should not Christians be in Jerusalem waiting for the promise of the Father?" Frankly, I don't give a flying *%$&. You're so confused about what is for today and what was for yesterday, maybe you need to come up with a definitive answer to your own question and in the process tell us what your principle of Biblical interpretation is. Oh, I know, it's called Damage Control.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13000558880506800772007-10-11T00:48:00.000-04:002007-10-11T00:48:00.000-04:00Joseph,Sounds good. Thanks for the conversation. ...Joseph,<BR/>Sounds good. Thanks for the conversation. It hasn't moved much in a couple millennia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1289984540046559432007-10-11T00:21:00.000-04:002007-10-11T00:21:00.000-04:00Jennifer, I'm kind of getting burned out of this p...Jennifer, I'm kind of getting burned out of this particular topic, so I think this will be my last post. I'm happy to give you the last word. Context is important, yes. But in the context of all the promises of Scripture is a message that is anything but ordinary....anything but realistic. Jesus and the disciples believed and taught that God would do amazing, incomprehensible, and supernatural things through prayer. <BR/><BR/>Did Jesus tell his followers that they could ask anything in his name and it would be done for them? Undoubtedly. Did he tell them they could move any "mountain" by faith? Without question. Did he tell them they would suffer for his name sake? Surely. That did not stop them from praying for real things to happen...and to happen (Jason, are you listening?) within a specific time frame. Go through the book of Acts and you'll see it all. Luke tells stories of the disciples putting their faith into action, actively claiming the promises of Jesus. The New Testament is full of letters from the apostles, boldly dispensing similar promises to the church at large. <BR/><BR/>I once believed that this same exciting faith could be mine. I believed in the power of prayer--not the watered down, esoteric, metaphysical mush that liberal Christians have turned prayer into. I wanted to believe that prayer could make a difference in my world. What Christian doesn't want the same? But our expectations are soon tempered by the reality that most prayers for real healing, real deliverance, real freedom, real protection all too often go unanswered. Thus the slightest appearance of an "answer" (even what is plainly natural and self-fulfilling) is heralded as proof of God's providential care. <BR/><BR/>It doesn't take long for a thinking Christian to see that the church's prayers are superficial. They don't feed hungry mouths. They don't topple dictators. They don't protect innocent children from unfit homes. What to do about this apparent contradiction between faith and experience? Well, you either do what I did, jump ship, and swim to the sanity of shore...or go back to each of those amazing Biblical promises and tone them way down. Once done, the Bible's promises are either relegated to some obscure, one-off situation longs since passed or they are devotionalized to death so that they no longer mean what they plainly say.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72670406725939566982007-10-11T00:05:00.000-04:002007-10-11T00:05:00.000-04:00Joseph, I just have trouble understanding when you...Joseph, <BR/><BR/><I>I just have trouble understanding when you think a New Testament passage should be read as addressing to the disciples of Christ as in the 12 and the disciples of Christ as in all of Christ's disciples.</I><BR/><BR/>I find using common sense really helps. When Christ told Peter that he would deny him three times, I don't assume Jesus is talking to "all of Christ's disciples". Do you?<BR/><BR/><I>To clarify, you are saying that John 14-17...is ONLY for the 12 disciples of Jesus with no practical applications for Christians today.</I><BR/><BR/>Nope, I’m not saying at all. Trying clarifying again. <BR/><BR/><I>“Yet you say the letters of Paul are NOT just for the Corinthians, the Philippians, the Galatians, etc. EVEN THOUGH there are also specific situational contexts involved (which is your criteria for ignoring the promises of John 14/16).”</I><BR/><BR/>Correct and for the reasons I've already stated. However, I'm not 'ignoring' the promises of John 14, I'm simply attributing them to their proper audience. It's no different then Christ promising to send a Comforter after his ascension. It should be rather apparent that this promise was meant solely for the disciples.<BR/><BR/><I>2 Cor. 9:8...(Is it true, does God give you sufficiency in EVERYTHING?)</I><BR/><BR/>I read “God is <B>able</B>…”. Perhaps you have something different?<BR/><BR/><I>Phil. 4:18...(Is it true, does God supply ALL your needs and the needs of your fellow Christians when they pray for God to meet them?)</I><BR/><BR/>According to His <B>“riches in glory in Christ Jesus”</B>? Absolutely. (As an aside, Ephesians 1:18 and Colossians 1:27 both tie in nicely with this verse.)<BR/><BR/><I>People die while they're waiting for God to save them...</I><BR/><BR/>Like I said, it’s the timeline people struggle with. People die all the time while they’re waiting for God but in comparison to the life God has promised the faithful believers, this life is nothing. The answered prayer of salvation trumps anything and everything.<BR/><BR/><I>Jason said: "...now you're placing your own condition on the prayer - it must be answered immediately." I don't see that I stated that condition at all (why do you want to make things up?).</I><BR/><BR/>You’re upset God hasn’t cured the world of its hunger and AIDS problems which means you’ve obviously expected it to have happened by now. Therefore, “you’re placing your own condition on the prayer – it must be answered immediately”.<BR/><BR/><I>"When God doesn’t respond within your timeframe, you claim your prayer hasn’t been answered and walk away in a huff." Again, I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.</I><BR/><BR/>From right here: <I>“If you or your church prays that God will feed the hungry mouths and the AIDS stricken children in South Africa…will God answer your prayers? If not, why not?"</I> Here’s my favourite part: <I>“If God doesn't answer even THESE prayers when the conditions are met, then what is he good for?”</I><BR/><BR/>Therefore, "When God doesn’t respond within your timeframe, you claim your prayer hasn’t been answered and walk away in a huff."<BR/><BR/><I>“People pray during emergencies. If God does not come through for them when they need it most, someone could die or be otherwise gravely injured.”</I><BR/><BR/>Sounds like you’re trying to remove ‘selfishness’ as a condition of God answering prayer.<BR/><BR/><I>“So let me get this straight, a Christian is to pray in faith, but not have any sense of anticipation that God will answer that prayer, especially as it applies to an urgent matter, such as current world events?"</I><BR/><BR/>If you think "anticipation" is the same as "assume", then yes, that's right.<BR/><BR/><I>"...It also violates the spirit of the James 1:6 passage."</I><BR/><BR/>Only if you don’t bother reading the very next verse: <B>“For let <I>not</I> that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.”</B><BR/><BR/><I>"BTW, did find that my quote of mine where I said I relegate “all” of the Bible’s teachings to “historical irrelevance”...?" I don't believe that I claimed you said those specific words.</I><BR/> <BR/>You said: “Either a person will follow your example, Jason, and relegate all of the Bible's teachings to historical irrelevance…” Therefore, where did I say I relegate “all” of the Bible’s teachings to “historical irrelevance”?<BR/><BR/><I>“If you confine the promises of John 14/16 to a specific situation only and you apply that same strict hermeneutic consistently to the entire NT, you will end up relegating the whole of Scripture to historical irrelevance.”</I><BR/><BR/>We’re not discussing history, Joseph, we’re discussing the spiritual and practical applications of specific verses for 21st century believers. Acts 1:4 – Should or should not Christians be in Jerusalem waiting for the promise of the Father?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65180857412400078362007-10-10T21:10:00.000-04:002007-10-10T21:10:00.000-04:00Joseph,Is anything to be taken at face value excep...Joseph,<BR/>Is anything to be taken at face value excepting a direct statement? I think we are intelligent enough to be able to understand the surrounding circumstances, and you still haven't told me how you combine or account for the statements Jesus made about suffering along with His words about answered prayer.<BR/><BR/>Yes, the disciples/apostles did take the words of Jesus to heart but do you think they stopped praying for direction? What would be the purpose of the Holy Spirit? What a weird thing to tell disciples....I'm leaving, but I'll send someone you can't see or hear with your ears, He will comfort you and guide you..WHAT?<BR/>It seems the apostles and others DID experience the power and direction of the Holy Spirit and He was very real in their lives even though they could not see Him or hear an audible voice. <BR/>I didn't say they didn't take Jesus's words to heart, I said they knew there was more to what Jesus said than meets the ear. <BR/><BR/>Jesus tells them they will cast out demons and they can't. So they tell Jesus about it. Jesus gives them more information. (I can hear John say, "why didn't Jesus write them a handbook titled, <B>Casting Out Demons for Dummies</B>.) There is more to the story and insight is needed.<BR/><BR/>I believe you when you say you see where I'm coming from, and I see it from your point as well. I don't think we will ever persuade each other. I came to faith as a skeptic even though I'd gone to church with good people growing up. My dad was/is a skeptic and I was too, until I called God on His promise to be found when searched for with all of a heart. I was ready to give up any hope of belief and I accepted that. I wasn't looking for miracles, just something. He made good on His promise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46773254014647191272007-10-10T20:37:00.000-04:002007-10-10T20:37:00.000-04:00Jennifer, I appreciate your thoughts and do unders...Jennifer, I appreciate your thoughts and do understand where you are coming from. Regardless of how Christians interpret the meaning of all the Bible's promises, one thing is clear to me: no one is willing to take them at face value. <BR/><BR/>As for the the apostles, Luke seems to think that they DID take Jesus' words to heart. If Acts it to be believed, they were doing all kinds of crazy miraculous @#$!Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89854209429761402742007-10-10T20:30:00.000-04:002007-10-10T20:30:00.000-04:00Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say to you, WHATEVER THIN...<I>Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say to you, WHATEVER THINGS you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and YOU WILL HAVE THEM."</I><BR/><BR/>You've already said you know that the mountain in the verse previous was a metaphor. Jesus hasn't changed thought here. What do you think He counseled his disciples to pray for? Jesus did not heal every person he encountered. He healed more than were recorded, apparently and we'll never know all that was recorded with the burning of Rome and subsequent "book bans", but He certainly didn't heal everyone.<BR/><BR/>Jesus had most certainly talked extensively with His disciples about what sorts of desires are "according to His will" and what kinds of things to ask for.<BR/><BR/>The disciples also had a hard time casting out demons...yes, I believe in demons...yet they still thought Jesus was credible. Do you see that there is more to the story? Jesus told them they would be able to do everything He did and more, yet they had a hard time? They still followed and He kept explaining. <BR/><BR/> I disagree with some of my brothers and sisters at this point. I believe God still explains, not against what has already been written down, but to clarify what is written. Just as it's written,<BR/><BR/>Paul, speaking of the wisdom he and the others received which gave them the "mind of Christ":<BR/><BR/>1 Corinthians 2:10<BR/> "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God."<BR/><BR/>Joseph,<BR/>I like good food. I love to eat and to eat a variety...just ask Prup. But, when you live on very simple food, the desire for an orange is like decadant chocolate cake. (my favorite, can't be too rich). My point about food, was not to say we should all live on rice and kale, it was to compare our indulgent eating habits to those of a more healthful and natual diet. God didn't promise to tantalize our tastebuds, He provided "milk and honey" which was enough combined with the other natural foods available. Have you had Baklava? Pretty good with the stuff God made and the people planted, harvested and prepared it by the work of their own hands. <BR/><BR/>Again, I'm not saying everyone should live simply and not attain to whatever life the choose, but to say one is poor when all they have to compare themselves with is affluence...I don't buy it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83607281209824670172007-10-10T20:27:00.000-04:002007-10-10T20:27:00.000-04:00Actually, Jen, I did make it its own topic here. a...Actually, Jen, I did make it its own topic <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/09/over-promise-under-deliver_26.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>. a few weeks back. Maybe it deserves a sequel.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91733709787980466312007-10-10T20:05:00.000-04:002007-10-10T20:05:00.000-04:00Joseph,You were obviously taught what you believe....Joseph,<BR/>You were obviously taught what you believe. If you read this passage for what it is, you will realize that David was expressing his experience with God and God's heart toward Israel. Obviously, not every Israeli got it or there would have been no diaspora.<BR/><BR/>Like I said, it would take a long time to get into this issue because it starts from the beginning....God never claimed to be who people thought He was and it goes on. It might be better to make this it's own topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27689792100045273652007-10-10T18:46:00.000-04:002007-10-10T18:46:00.000-04:00The Psalm acts as an expression of God's truth. I...The Psalm acts as an expression of God's truth. If it's claims cannot be verified, then it is not God's truth, pure and simple. How ironic that "he will fulfill the desire of those who fear him" doesn't really mean "HE WILL FULFILL THE DESIRE OF THOSE WHO FEAR HIM." <BR/><BR/>Go ahead, treat all the promises of God the same way. You are only helping my argument. Christians fight against such passages because they realize instinctively that the Bible over-promises and under-delivers.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-9087424478871093182007-10-10T18:35:00.000-04:002007-10-10T18:35:00.000-04:00Psalm 145:18,19 "The Lord is near to ALL who call ...<I>Psalm 145:18,19 "The Lord is near to ALL who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him in truth. HE WILL FULFILL THE DESIRE OF THOSE WHO FEAR HIM. He will also hear their cry and SAVE them."</I><BR/><BR/>This is a psalm of David who is praising God, not a promise of God. <BR/><BR/>Surely people were starving and sick even as David sang this. Why didn't David go tell Israel they would all be healed and have every desire met if that is what he believed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32906089144811092492007-10-10T17:51:00.000-04:002007-10-10T17:51:00.000-04:00Jason, I'm a bit frustrated that you are avoiding ...Jason, I'm a bit frustrated that you are avoiding dealing with my overall objection. It's not a question of when God answers prayer, it's a question of if. I'll come back to that in a moment. <BR/><BR/>First, I want to deal with a few of the side issues. You said: "The letters were written to Christians. I’m a Christian. See the relationship?" Oh, yes, I understand exactly what you're trying to say. I just have trouble understanding when you think a New Testament passage should be read as addressing to the disciples of Christ as in the 12 and the disciples of Christ as in all of Christ's disciples. So far, if I understand you right, most of the four Gospels are irrelevant to Christians today, as far as its teaching and promises are concerned. I guess it all hinges on whether there is a difficult passage involved, huh? <BR/><BR/>To clarify, you are saying that John 14-17 (with all it's promises, doctrine, and assurances) is ONLY for the 12 disciples of Jesus with no practical applications for Christians today. Yet you say the letters of Paul are NOT just for the Corinthians, the Philippians, the Galatians, etc. EVEN THOUGH there are also specific situational contexts involved (which is your criteria for ignoring the promises of John 14/16). You're ending up with less and less Scriptures that you can claim as your own, Jason!<BR/><BR/>So, since you accept the letters to the early churches as relevant to Christians today, tell me what you do with the following verses:<BR/><BR/>* 2 Cor. 9:8, "And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed." (Is it true, does God give you sufficiency in EVERYTHING?)<BR/><BR/>* Phil. 4:18, "And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus." (Is it true, does God supply ALL your needs and the needs of your fellow Christians when they pray for God to meet them?)<BR/><BR/>Jason said: "God answers prayer all the time – it’s the timeline people usually struggle with." Yeah. People die while they're waiting for God to save them. Women get raped, children get molested, war uproots families and destroys towns, dictators abuse power, the rich exploit the poor, etc. while God sits on his big anthropomorphic hands and does zilch, nada, nothing. God doesn't answer prayer, buddy. The Bible promises lie. <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "As your last three questions clearly show, now you're placing your own condition on the prayer - it must be answered immediately." I don't see that I stated that condition at all (why do you want to make things up?). The whole timing element is not a critical to my argument, but I do see why you brought it up. When prayers are not answered, you have an out! "Well, God just hasn't answered prayers YET....and by the way, you're selfish for wanting an answer now." Again, my point is that prayers claiming God's promises are no good if God doesn't answer them...today, tomorrow, whenever. <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "When God doesn’t respond within your timeframe, you claim your prayer hasn’t been answered and walk away in a huff." Again, I don't know where you are getting this stuff from. However, having said that, you must admit that often the timing related to the fulfillment of prayer requests is critical. People pray during emergencies. If God does not come through for them when they need it most, someone could die or be otherwise gravely injured. Praying, under such circumstances, was false hope...an utter waste of time. <BR/><BR/>Jason, what shocked me more than anything was when you said, "The prayer [for the hungry and AIDS stricken in South Africa] was a selfish request (I'm demanding you act now) and with a lack of faith (if you don’t do it now I won’t believe) and therefore it may very well not be answered." <BR/><BR/>Wow. So let me get this straight, a Christian is to pray in faith, but not have any sense of anticipation that God will answer that prayer, especially as it applies to an urgent matter, such as current world events? That's ridiculous and biblically unwarranted. It also violates the spirit of the James 1:6 passage. Please observe, that in my illustration of the church praying for relief from AIDS in South Africa, I attached neither conditions to it. You made them up to create a straw man argument, thus once again ignoring the force of the argument. You must have been good at dodge ball when you were a kid. <BR/><BR/>Jason said: "BTW, did find that my quote of mine where I said I relegate “all” of the Bible’s teachings to “historical irrelevance”...?" I don't believe that I claimed you said those specific words. What I did claim was that there is are clear and inescapable implications resulting from your hermeneutic. If you confine the promises of John 14/16 to a specific situation only and you apply that same strict hermeneutic consistently to the entire NT, you will end up relegating the whole of Scripture to historical irrelevance.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54946119081390785172007-10-10T15:51:00.000-04:002007-10-10T15:51:00.000-04:00Joseph,"Since we’re also Christians, the letters n...Joseph,<BR/><BR/><I>"Since we’re also Christians, the letters naturally apply to us." Even though the letters are situational? Am I wrong?</I><BR/><BR/>The letters were written to Christians. I’m a Christian. See the relationship? The situation is also the same – man sins, man requires salvation, salvation is offered through Christ to the baptized faithful, faithful baptized Christian strives to follow God’s commandments by studying Scripture and understanding his role on this earth. Seems like a pretty good description of the situation Christians find themselves in today.<BR/><BR/><I>If you or your church prays that God will feed the hungry mouths and the AIDS stricken children in South Africa...will God answer your prayers? If not, why not? I can't think of a better things to pray for! If God doesn't answer even THESE prayers when the conditions are met, then what is he good for? What are his promises worth? What is prayer worth?</I><BR/><BR/>God answers prayer all the time – it’s the timeline people usually struggle with. As your last three questions clearly show, now you're placing your <I>own</I> condition on the prayer - it must be answered immediately. When God doesn’t respond within <I>your</I> timeframe, you claim your prayer hasn’t been answered and walk away in a huff. And thus we come full circle – the prayer was a selfish request (I'm demanding you act now) and with a lack of faith (if you don’t do it now I won’t believe) and therefore it may very well not be answered.<BR/><BR/>BTW, did find that my quote of mine where I said I relegate “all” of the Bible’s teachings to “historical irrelevance”...?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-35123324736690769472007-10-10T12:09:00.000-04:002007-10-10T12:09:00.000-04:00p.s. By "last paragraph" I meant the one before my...p.s. By "last paragraph" I meant the one before my "please respond to this" statement.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.com