tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post4212631394100831859..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement and the Justice of GodUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-82802660550882005382008-04-03T01:26:00.000-04:002008-04-03T01:26:00.000-04:00The Apostle Peter testifies that God judges justly...The Apostle Peter testifies that God judges justly and then in the very next verse affirms that Christ bore our sins. (1 Peter 2:23-24)<BR/><BR/>Again, the apostle Paul declares that putting forth Christ as a propitiation for our sins was a demonstration of God's justice, not a violation of it (Romans 3:25). Right at the outset, then we must say that it is unbiblical to charge penal substitution with injustice. Nonetheless it wll be fruitful to spend a little time considering why penal substitution is not unjust.<BR/><BR/>It is correct to assert that the willingness of Christ suffering is not a satisfactory explanation by itself. The reason is obvious. If an innocent person suffers the punishment for a crime for which he bears no guilt, then it makes no difference whether or not he does so willingly. It is a miscarriage of justice, pure and simple. The Bible condemns such a thing when it comes to human courts, and it would seem strange if Christ did not adhere to the same standard Himself.<BR/><BR/><BR/>To see why penal substitution is not a travesty of justice of exactly this kind, we need to recal the doctrine of union with Christ. The believer is not seperate from Christ. He is in us, and we are in Him, indwelt by His Spirit. It is easy to understate the significance of our union with Christ, for it is not visible but spiritual-it exists by faith. But this is not at all to imply that it is not real. The spiritual in spiritual union means it is God's Holy Spirit who creates the union between Christ and believers; it does not imply that this union has no real consequences. Our justification, our adoption as God's children, and our present reigning with Christ in heavenly places are all real although spiritual and invisible, being perceived in the present only by faith.<BR/><BR/>The doctrine of penal substitution thus does not propose a transfer of guilt between unrelated persons. It asserts that guilt is transferred to Christ from those uninted with Him. In fact transfer may not even be the best term, since it could imply a seperation between dstinct persons. It may be better to say our sins were imputed to Christ while His righteousness was impted to us. That Christ bore our sins willingly furthers the point: He was not forced or coerced into this union with us, but entered into it voluntarily.<BR/><BR/>Union with Christ eplains how the innocent could be justly punished-He is judged for others sins, which by virtue of their union with him, become His. Conversely, it explains also how the guilty can be justly aquitted-believers are one with innocent Lord Jesus Christ, and so His life of perfect righteousness is rightly imputed to us.<BR/><BR/>God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21).<BR/><BR/>Sometimes people use the terminology of Christ dying as our representative in an attempt to give a coherent account of the atonement that incorperates the truth of faith union. Whatever Christ did as our representative, we also did by virtue of being in Him. Thus, in this sense, we died on the cross (2 corinthians 5:14)<BR/><BR/><BR/>John Owen:<BR/><BR/>God might punish the elect either in their own persons, or in their surety standing in their room and stead(as their substitute); and when He is punished, they also are punished (in their representative): for in this point of view the federal head and those representated by Him are not considered as distinct, but as one; for although they are not one in respect of personal unity, they are, however, one-that is, one body in mystical union, yea, one mystical Christ-namely, the surety is the head, those represented by Him the members; and when the head is punished, the members also are punished.<BR/><BR/><BR/>We are now in a position to answer the objection that penal substitution entails unjustly punishing an innocent person. This rests on the claim that our sins cannot be imputed to Christ, which in turn is grounded on the assumption that we are entirely seperate and distinct from Him. But the reality is that believers are united to Christ by His spirit. The imputation of ou guilt to Christ does not violate justice, because He willingly consents to real, spiritual identification with His people.<BR/>In short, this objection to penal substitution arises from a failure to understand the significance of union with Christ.<BR/><BR/>Not only that but the punishment does fit the crime. Since God is infinite in value and worth and I have sinned against Him then I deserve infinite punishment and suffering. Christ being infinite in value and worth endured infinite punishment and suffering.<BR/><BR/>The dignity of an infinite God swallows up all the infinities of punishment due to me. <BR/><BR/>Not only that but the death of Christ being infinite in value and worth is more than sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world because it's infinite.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7195084074231271932007-09-02T19:55:00.000-04:002007-09-02T19:55:00.000-04:00Justice is a legal term, the same as law. The ten ...Justice is a legal term, the same as law. The ten commandments are the moral Law of God that you have written on your hearts. You know by your God given conscience that it is wrong to lie [9th commandment] Steal [8th] use His name in vain [3rd] If you have done any of these things even once, then you are a criminal before a holy and perfect God. The punishment is infinite because the crime is infinite. It is justice if the Judge Himself pays the fine. Please don't trifle with your eternity!!!cornerstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17401755056188745344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-64829466154055550592007-08-28T01:39:00.000-04:002007-08-28T01:39:00.000-04:00If you do use the Bible to debunk itself, I must b...If you do use the Bible to debunk itself, I must be missing it. Are the Bible references buried somewhere in all the technical and scientific posts?<BR/><BR/>How about debunking Satan as a supernatural evil entity. He's always a party favourite.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46702529284784650092007-08-28T01:26:00.000-04:002007-08-28T01:26:00.000-04:00Hi Jason,We do use the bible to debunk itself. I ...Hi Jason,<BR/>We do use the bible to debunk itself. I would be happy to create a page of articles using the bible to debunk itself if you'd like and even if you don't I think its a good idea anyway.<BR/><BR/>What you would like to see debunked? I'll do my best to give you a sound debunking.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86977227516237258702007-08-28T00:59:00.000-04:002007-08-28T00:59:00.000-04:00Lot of "if's" in that last post. Now that I have ...Lot of "if's" in that last post. Now that I have more or less lost my faith, it is amusing to step back and listen to people arguing as I once did. How many assumptions Christians make about who God is, what he must be thinking, what motivates him, etc. All based on what?Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89042543195665568872007-08-27T22:03:00.000-04:002007-08-27T22:03:00.000-04:00If God has the ability of resurrection it seems Hi...If God has the ability of resurrection it seems His perspective of suffering and death is much different than many of the viewpoints voiced here. From the stance of resurrection, Jesus's life and sacrifice were more than worthwhile if it meant that people could see and embrace a God that desired our salvation in regards to the way we love and live.Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-56198253848302300942007-08-27T21:13:00.000-04:002007-08-27T21:13:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249772680829844699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4368626954532195042007-08-27T18:06:00.000-04:002007-08-27T18:06:00.000-04:00Well, for God to sit back and watch His innocent s...Well, for God to sit back and watch His innocent son to be blugeoned to death doesn't really solve the problem either.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249772680829844699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38956380518547702652007-08-27T18:05:00.000-04:002007-08-27T18:05:00.000-04:00jennifer,I choose to spend my time here as much fo...jennifer,<BR/><BR/>I choose to spend my time here as much for my own benifit, as what little I might be able to contribute.<BR/><BR/>I too realize, that my presence here will do very little to change anyone, and thus it is not why I am here. I am searching for continued answers and validation as everyone here. If I can learn just a little more about the world around me, as well as challenge my belief system, through the insights and experiences of others (especially those with whom I don't necessarily share the same world view), than it's all worth while.<BR/><BR/>I totally respect your stance however, and could probably learn a thing or two about shutting up a little more, and not just spewing forth whatever comes to mind every 5 minutes...<BR/><BR/>good times.lowendactionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15509676520378562142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41529402013730742822007-08-27T17:27:00.000-04:002007-08-27T17:27:00.000-04:00xhbyqLowendaction and Jason,What you both pointed ...xhbyqLowendaction and Jason,<BR/><BR/>What you both pointed out about the arguments here is one reason why I got out of it. <BR/><BR/>Jesus didn't enter into arguments and didn't even answer all of the questions He was asked...if someone is searching and wondering why I believe what I do, I'll share and talk with them but this is a waste of time for me now.<BR/><BR/>I wish you both the best in explaining who God is and exposing the false premises that prevail here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25980305754981303662007-08-27T17:07:00.000-04:002007-08-27T17:07:00.000-04:00Prup,Is there an argument somewhere in your post.....Prup,<BR/><BR/>Is there an argument somewhere in your post...?<BR/><BR/>I sincerely question why you're required to know which branch of Christianity someone adheres to. Based on the last twenty topics posted on this site, a full two of them are actually specifically directed at evangelical christianity. The rest consist of topics that seem to serve only as an excuse to use big words.<BR/><BR/>If the purpose of this site is debunk evangelical christianity, then do it. If, however, you're going to continue debating creation, the existence of God and the atonement, you're naturally opening the door for any and every Christian to come in and offer a defense of their faith. <BR/><BR/>Most of you atheists claim to be former Christians. I find it extremely surprising none of you use the very book you apparently know so well to debunk the false doctrines of evangelical christianity. Why is this?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-58798219801183239772007-08-27T16:46:00.000-04:002007-08-27T16:46:00.000-04:00Lee,Whether or not I consider crucifixion to be pu...Lee,<BR/><BR/>Whether or not I consider crucifixion to be punishment is based entirely on the 'guilt' of the individual. Jesus was free of sin. Therefore it can't be claimed he was being punished for anything he did. Unless, of course, you think that innocent men and women who are killed by others are actually being 'punished'...?<BR/><BR/>Jesus was resurrected, given eternal life, and given a place of authority sitting on the right hand of God. A discussion on the 'fairness' of the death of Christ should logically include the blessings he received afterwards.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27762098502717081942007-08-27T14:12:00.000-04:002007-08-27T14:12:00.000-04:00oI find it fascinating that Jesus is being describ...oI find it fascinating that Jesus is being described (mostly by the atheist side) in human terms: "I wouldn't want to be in that postition." or "That wouldn't hold up in court."<BR/><BR/>Presupposing that we are recognizing Christ as being one and the same as God, (if only for this conversation...) then His suffering, motivations, and purpose are far above ANY human could ever achieve.<BR/><BR/>I've mentioned this before...when attempting to Debunk Christianity it simply doesn't cut it to put God/Christ on human terms and then start applying our rules and logic in the process. Unless you can in fact prove that God does absolutely not exists, and you are still willing/interested in discussing His existance (if only to disprove Him) than the possiblity of His supernatural character must be taken into account. <BR/><BR/>And that leads to my answer to FF's post. God symbolically sacrificed a part of Himself for the sin of all mankind. I say symbolically, because God can not be destroyed, nor any part Him. Though Christ was a real person who did experience the suffering and death, He was resurected to be with God.<BR/><BR/>When you examine God's definition of Love, you'll find that Jesus actions where the embodiment of that love...and since God is Love...hmmm.<BR/><BR/>See, if you think God is bunk, and everything associated with Him is meaningless, then why bother having discussions about something that doesn't exist? But if you are interested in dialoge about God, then you must do so under the terms of His existance and character. You musn't accept it as truth, but what point is it talking about God as a non-God?lowendactionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15509676520378562142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-59434040311875716622007-08-27T12:56:00.000-04:002007-08-27T12:56:00.000-04:00Assuming we are sticking to the Bible for this who...Assuming we are sticking to the Bible for this whole conversation.. what would you have to say about Gen. 4:10?<BR/>This implies to me that there is more than a simple moral dilema.<BR/>In the Bible, God also talks about the land being defiled because of sin and bloodshed.<BR/><BR/>We all know that life is in the blood...transplant patients report a range of personality differences, changes in preferences and even emotional attachements to people related to the person who's organ they received. Especially when it's the heart that is transplanted.<BR/><BR/>I think there is more to the story than a simple understanding of moral right and wrong. From what I have experienced and can read, God is not concerned with morality, He's concerned with righteousness. Doing what is right..in His estimation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-26994266742677833772007-08-27T12:39:00.000-04:002007-08-27T12:39:00.000-04:00I gave up the penal substitution theory many years...I gave up the penal substitution theory many years ago after reading some Socinian criticisms of the doctrine. They rightly pointed out that if God is punishing Jesus on the cross in our stead (because someone, somewhere must pay), then there's no such thing as divine forgiveness. If I owe back taxes and some stranger pays the taxes in my stead, is the IRS forgiving my debt? Absolutely not! The IRS is simply getting payment elsewhere. It's pardoning no one.SteveJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04525881183798559993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-53864907982308229252007-08-27T12:35:00.000-04:002007-08-27T12:35:00.000-04:00Not only do we have the problem of a substitutiona...Not only do we have the problem of a substitutionary punishment for crimes in a kingdom, but we also have to problem of the punishment deserved in the first place. Such a punishment is far and away unjust, especially since human beings have no clue that the punishment is so terrible. If we knew we'd be punished so severely we wouldn't sin, plain and simple...or as Lee would say..snap!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-56204292774843863812007-08-27T12:21:00.000-04:002007-08-27T12:21:00.000-04:00You're right FF and Lee,Having Jesus take up the p...You're right FF and Lee,<BR/><BR/>Having Jesus take up the punishment for humanity's sins doesn't seem just at all, seems like a pretty big crock. I'd hate to be given THAT bill at the end of the day.<BR/><BR/>But the God of the Bible is also a loving God (yes I know you have qualms about this too) and in this case He chose to extend grace to humanity by having His Son pay this price for us. <BR/><BR/>At this point, I'm not sure what more to discuss on the issue. We can tangent to discuss the validity of the Bible and the testimony (as Lee did) or we can tangent and discuss the merits of God allowing sin in first place, which brought us to this atonement mess.<BR/><BR/>But ultimately (if you grant the assumptions about the God of the Bible that FF made in the initial post) you have to decide if God's sacrifice was a bad execution of justice or an amazing execution of grace. I personally am quite grateful for the latter.Dillie-Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17248916127845828772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77869719313695656712007-08-27T12:08:00.000-04:002007-08-27T12:08:00.000-04:00Lee,The first comment you made is what makes me wo...Lee,<BR/>The first comment you made is what makes me wonder why you all ever go beyond the point of proving the Bible wrong. This topic is about a Christian doctrine so I'm only addressing it from that perspective.<BR/><BR/><B>I can't see any rational principle behind 'penal substitution'.</B> <BR/><BR/>God is not only rational, He's also relational, which is not always rational. <BR/><BR/>Cole,<BR/>I agree with you in part...the Bible does use the word justice as being synonomous with punishment, but the end result of punishment is the outcome of justice. If a murder is committed, justice would be served for that person to die as well. If the judge decides that person should live and be given a prison sentence, that's mercy..to a degree and is still a part of justice. If that person is pardoned for a complete change in behavior and shows their repentance consistently, that is also justice because according to the judge, the person has earned their freedom and release from punishment. Feel free to disagree and show me what you mean by only punishment being justice.<BR/><BR/>FF,<BR/><B>Punishment is not just arbitrary. It is for the person who committed the crime.</B><BR/><BR/>Yes, but according to God the punishment is death. Is that a better solution? I sure makes more sense to the human mind I suppose. <BR/><BR/>As Cole said, God Himself took our sin and the requirement of death was satisfied. Jesus is God incarnate...God bore our sin and the life lived absolutely for the glory of God in human form became the substitute. Propitiation was made for God..three in one. Jesus was not called the Son before His time on earth...that I can think of...He was The Word.<BR/><BR/>The Bible says that not only did Christ become our righteousness, but He intercedes still. He holds back the wrath of God unitl judgement day.<BR/><BR/>I'm curious..if one of you were able to create your children in your own image, how would you go about that? And what would you do if you had an adversary who sought to destroy your children?<BR/><BR/>Jason,<BR/>Thank you:) I forgot you don't believe in the triune God..but I appreciate your answer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-80217187569067585372007-08-27T11:59:00.000-04:002007-08-27T11:59:00.000-04:00It wasn't unjust Lee, because Christ voluntarily t...It wasn't unjust Lee, because Christ voluntarily took upon our sins.<BR/> God showed His love for us in that while we yet sinners Christ died for us. It's called grace. <BR/><BR/>I don't see any contradiction there.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249772680829844699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-35149820947239840362007-08-27T11:35:00.000-04:002007-08-27T11:35:00.000-04:00hahahaha you're crazy Leehahahaha you're crazy LeeTomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249772680829844699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-28722328834517100962007-08-27T11:31:00.000-04:002007-08-27T11:31:00.000-04:00Some very interesting comments, particularly from ...Some very interesting comments, particularly from you, Jason. As usual, you give your "I fail to see how either of your arguments are debunking Christianity" refrain. What is ironic is that you also give two comments that, themselves, would debunk evangelical, fundamentalist Christianity.<BR/><BR/>You say <BR/>a:)"Jesus was <B><I>given</I></B> eternal life after he was resurrected" [3:42 Aug 26]<BR/><BR/>and<BR/>b:)"[Jesus] <I>was</I> resurrected, <I>given</I> eternal life and a position of authority on the right hand of God" [9:55 Aug 26]<BR/><BR/>and<BR/>c:)"Jesus was <B>given</B> authority and power by God"<BR/>[9:18 AM Aug 27]<BR/><BR/>But, first, if he was given eternal life and a position of authority by God after the Resurrection, this implies he did not have them before this time.<BR/><BR/>Which means <B><I>he was not God.</I></B> You reject both the Trinity and the 'dual nature of Christ' that are part of evangelical, and most other forms of, Christianity.<BR/><BR/>(In fact, there have been various forms of Christianity that held this idea, that Jesus was a man who -- at some point -- had 'Godness' infused into him. But they are not the evangelical Christianity we usually deal with.)<BR/><BR/>Second, if Jesus -- as a man -- was given 'eternal life' again, this implies that men do not have this by nature, that the soul is not inherently immortal, that the choice after death is not <BR/>'heaven or hell' but<BR/>'eternal life or death.'<BR/><BR/>Again, a position that has been held by many Christians -- and by those Jews of the time who believed in an afterlife. But not a common one these days, and abominable to fundamentalists and evangelicals.<BR/><BR/>This is why I wish people, when they join the debate here, would explain which of the many branches of Christianity they adhere to, and wish they realize that 'Christianity' is not always equal to 'the Christianity I grew up with.' (And yes, this is a fault that is common not just on both sides of the divide here, but on many other blogs discussing atheism or Christianity.)Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78874642795173574622007-08-27T11:14:00.000-04:002007-08-27T11:14:00.000-04:00Hi Jason,you don't consider crucifixion punishment...Hi Jason,<BR/>you don't consider crucifixion punishment? How 'bout torture? snap, snap?<BR/><BR/>I hope thats where he's at cause if not then it would suck to be him even worse. snap, snap, circle.<BR/>;-)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-36811906774991073242007-08-27T11:00:00.000-04:002007-08-27T11:00:00.000-04:00Lee,Nothing in Scripture suggests Jesus was 'punis...Lee,<BR/><BR/>Nothing in Scripture suggests Jesus was 'punished' so it's your opinion against God's Word. Tough call. ;) Snap.<BR/><BR/>Jesus was given eternal life to sit on the right hand of God. Where's the punishment? Snap.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83588036633183520332007-08-27T10:55:00.000-04:002007-08-27T10:55:00.000-04:00Hi FF,The problem as I see it is that while we all...Hi FF,<BR/><B><I>The problem as I see it is that while we allow the transfer or imputation of monetary debts; we do not allow the same for moral debts. </B></I><BR/>In this case the relative importance of the act plays a part. But you can pay my parking tickets all you want, but I believe that accruing a certain number of them comes back to me only. <BR/><BR/>however, if i don't know I'm breaking the law, by law I am still guilty. I guess this has been deemed a necessity in civilization. But in the context of not accepting god, there were some in the world that were not even aware of the god of the jews or the jews themselves. So the question raises "by what principle are those people so guilty of sin they were worthy of death?" and how is it 'just' to heap their sins on an innocent man, even if he did agree. <BR/><BR/>I can't see any rational principle behind 'penal substitution'.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29705051398319156312007-08-27T10:54:00.000-04:002007-08-27T10:54:00.000-04:00Only Christ could have done that.Christ was perfec...Only Christ could have done that.<BR/>Christ was perfect.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249772680829844699noreply@blogger.com