tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post3921152224309484523..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: The Greater and Lesser DeedsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17652947642786367552010-02-07T20:03:09.596-05:002010-02-07T20:03:09.596-05:00"Evangelical Christianity denies progressive ..."Evangelical Christianity denies progressive knowledge and that is crazy-making."<br /><br /><br />In all fairness to Christianity, I have never known an intellectual Christian who has claimed that knowledge is not progressive with respect to our learning of it.<br /><br />The more objections that atheists make to Christianity...the more logical explanations are needed...so of course this knowledge would be progressive.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81776212759641023612010-02-07T19:56:18.448-05:002010-02-07T19:56:18.448-05:00Cole,
Defending the Bible is easy, once you know t...Cole,<br />Defending the Bible is easy, once you know that the "bible" really is and once you know what the Perfect Word of God really is and how to differentiate between them logically.<br /><br />The whole problem with people claiming that Christianity has somehow been "debunked" is because of Christians who have improperly placed the "goal posts" in the wrong places.<br /><br />It makes John's job easier...but it doesn't change the fact that born-again Christianity is an objective reality and that God the Father/The God of Abraham/Jesus Christ is the fundamental reality of the universe.<br /><br />Question everything!<br /><br />but when you question...pray for protection.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-42934811910091659402010-01-25T14:19:03.204-05:002010-01-25T14:19:03.204-05:00You basically say
1. God is love. - I agree with ...You basically say<br /><br />1. God is love. - I agree with this.<br />2. God desires the salvation of mankind. (I take no delight in the death of the wicked - Ezekiel) (1 Timothy 2:3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. )<br />3. God is sovereign. - I agree with this.<br /><br />4. All of mankind is not being saved.<br /><br />More thoughts:<br />Comparisons and contrasts are part of God's work, it seems. To show evil for evil, and good for good. To offer salvation to men, and to judge the wicked. Maybe the way to say it would be to say God delights in the salvation of men, but also desires the judgment of the wicked. In that sense, to say God desires the salvation of man does not contradict the reality that not all men will be saved.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06708209663362939644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65201675418910952442010-01-25T13:22:02.695-05:002010-01-25T13:22:02.695-05:00One difference between a child of God and someone ...<i>One difference between a child of God and someone who isn't saved is that when the child of God falls down he gets back up and keeps going.</i><br /><br />This would only be valid if atheists, or believers in gods other than the particular god wortshipped by the person making this claim, don't ever "get back up and keep going". Simple observation suggests that this is simply not true. From a Christian perspective, all those non-Christians carrying on with their lives in the aftermath of the big Indonesian tsunami are sufficient proof that this statement cannot be true. Any atheist carrying on after the loss of his family in a house fire, is sufficient for disproof.cicelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16669894196801656373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14416950814391124652010-01-25T12:25:16.458-05:002010-01-25T12:25:16.458-05:00I have struggled in my faith over this issue. I wo...I have struggled in my faith over this issue. I wondered, how can God's plan for humanity involve billions of casualties? But I realized something. God's greatest purpose is not the salvation of man. It is his own glory, which involves the salvation of some and the condemnation of others. And besides that there are things about God's work that I probably won't understand until I go to be with him.<br /><br />There is a misconception about the nature of God that drives these types of arguments. If we expect God to be like us, or his idea of what is right to be like ours, we will get confused. I think if you really read the Old Testament honestly, and then also the New Testament, you will see that God's nature isn't how we expect it to be, but it is good.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06708209663362939644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90845938982052462502010-01-25T12:02:23.523-05:002010-01-25T12:02:23.523-05:00Cole,
Go easy on yourself man. Progress, not per...Cole,<br /><br />Go easy on yourself man. Progress, not perfection and all that. Questioning presuppositions because you perceive their rigidity leads to incoherence does not demand that you immediately replace them with an equally rigid system. It is okay to say, "I don't know". Isn't that what AA means by "One day at a time"? <br /><br />Evangelical Christianity denies progressive knowledge and that is crazy-making.<br /><br />Be good to yourself man.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-42947459491131691882010-01-25T11:12:35.014-05:002010-01-25T11:12:35.014-05:00One can indeed look stupid trying to defend God. ...One can indeed look stupid trying to defend God. <a href="http://www.thestarlitecafe.com/poems/105/poem_91021732.html" rel="nofollow">He doesn't need anything from us, for sure. </a><br /><br />Living good as John suggests is all very well and good. I often wonder why Christianity is an impediment, and certainly not a requirement for doing so.<br /><br />But the paradox, which we know in our gut to be true, that a generous life is a selfish way to live -- because it's more gratifying than an inquisitive, combative way of life -- is something that doesn't really hold up to analysis. We just know. <br /><br />There are other things we just know. It's easy to look stupid saying 8 plus 7 is 15, when somebody can show us on a clock, 8 plus 7 is 3. Or is it us Christians, with our circular thinking, who insist is must be 3, because otherwise bankers have earned all they stole and can spend it freely on blow and ex-marine bull hookers. What was the name of that fellow who was briefly notorious as a free-lance Whitehouse reporter? JEff something.BobCMU76https://www.blogger.com/profile/09124766832330905279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71534823037313554992010-01-25T10:06:08.812-05:002010-01-25T10:06:08.812-05:00SureSureJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10220630755995879572010-01-25T10:03:25.079-05:002010-01-25T10:03:25.079-05:00Cole, may I quote what you just said in a post of ...Cole, may I quote what you just said in a post of it's own while describing your journey here at DC?<br /><br />"I'm tired of looking stupid by trying to defend the Bible."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17387291781064782672010-01-25T09:58:49.217-05:002010-01-25T09:58:49.217-05:00I don't know. I didn't know they had group...I don't know. I didn't know they had groups you could go to like that. I always have A.A. There's a couple of atheists that go to the one I go to. They're pretty open at that one. I am fixing to go see a counselor next week. Maybe she can help. I'm doing okay. I just get upset sometimes. <br /><br />I'm tired of looking stupid by trying to defend the Bible. Thanks for saying I'm not stupid. I'm also sorry for that comment. I tend to get a little crazy sometimes.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85912715248640953042010-01-25T09:46:33.898-05:002010-01-25T09:46:33.898-05:00Cole, you should be done with the Bible. Defending...Cole, you should be done with the Bible. Defending it and the beliefs in it make you look, well, stupid. But you're not stupid.<br /><br />I think you'll be better off mentally not having to stress about this as much as I've seen you do over the years.<br /><br />I wish you well. Is there a skeptics group in your area you can get involved with? I think being with people who agree with you would be good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32839050835823710582010-01-25T09:27:42.589-05:002010-01-25T09:27:42.589-05:00I'm okay John. I'm done with the Bible.I'm okay John. I'm done with the Bible.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-30315077993530454982010-01-25T06:57:02.360-05:002010-01-25T06:57:02.360-05:00Cole, perhaps you need help. I saw your other comm...Cole, perhaps you need help. I saw your other comment in another post above. What is it with you? Jean Paul Sartre said that we seek out the counselors who will tell us what we want to hear. You came here because you wanted to read what we have to say. You wanted to be convinced that you were wrong forreaffirming your faith. And you are wrong. You knew it when you came here after rejecting atheism. You wanted to be convinced you were wrong. You got what you wanted. That's how twisted the mind can be sometimes. <br /><br />But the alternative isn't anger or lawlessness or a complete mental breakdown. Life is what you make it. Embrace the wonders of this present world. Embrace your friends and family. Find love. Do something creative. Leave the world better than you found it, one person at a time. Leave a legacy of kindness. You only have one life. There is no afterlife. So do the best you can with it. Make something of yourself for the sky's the limit.<br /><br />Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-2478234058203233162010-01-25T00:22:43.152-05:002010-01-25T00:22:43.152-05:00Bill,
You're right. I don't know what I w...Bill,<br /><br />You're right. I don't know what I was thinking. I'm fucked.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-70643423091800398242010-01-24T12:26:35.080-05:002010-01-24T12:26:35.080-05:00To Cole: You wrote: "I'm not God. He hasn...To Cole: You wrote: "I'm not God. He hasn't revealed everything to me. The secret things belong to the Lord."<br /><br />Then you truly are alone "in there." If you're not God, which I agree with, and you cannot adequately answer the questions which I have raised, then why attempt to speak for him at all? If the reason God will not save everyone is a "secret thing", then he has no right to judge the world based upon information that he has withheld.<br /><br />I don't want to derail this thread further, so I'll simply conclude my part by saying that Christians (and I was one) do their best to straddle the fence of "salvation" by stating what God will do while, at the same time, stating that God's ways are a mystery or are not our ways. You can't have it both ways. You can't state exactly what it is that God desires and will do while also claiming that he is a mystery and essentially unknowable, especially when it comes to matters of "eternal" significance. One of the reasons I left Christianity is because of the illogic and contradictions found in the supposed deity of God. Theism makes no sense. If it did, there would be no need for Christian apologists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-64999595607207677712010-01-24T10:57:51.176-05:002010-01-24T10:57:51.176-05:00Bill,
God is no respector of persons in the sense...Bill,<br /><br />God is no respector of persons in the sense of race, age, gender, nationality. He still has a special love for His children. He shows common grace to all but special grace to His children.<br /><br />I'm not God. He hasn't revealed everything to me. The secret things belong to the Lord.<br /><br />You didn't read everything I said about grace and how it is unmerited favor. God is under no obligtion to be merciful to sinners. He owes it to no one.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4217660828073657462010-01-24T10:47:16.989-05:002010-01-24T10:47:16.989-05:00To Cole: You wrote, "I don't know why God...To Cole: You wrote, "I don't know why God doesn't do it for everyone."<br /><br />You should. If God, the creator of the universe, lives inside you and you have, according to the Bible, "the mind of Christ", then you should readily know the answer as to why God doesn't give faith to everyone, especially if it is unearned. Again, according to the Bible, God is no respector of persons and the rain falls on the just and unjust alike. <br /><br />You wrote: "He cannot be said to be unjust if He doesn't give it to all."<br /><br />Certainly he can. If he is love and if he desires to save everyone and if he is sovereign, then he is unjust if he plays favorites. If everyone isn't saved, then the three axioms that God is love, that he wants everyone to be saved, and that he controls the universe are simply Christianese lip-service. This ties in with the problem of theodicy. <br /><br />Christians are really good at saying exactly what God is like and what God wants to do, and then backtracking into either the sovereignty or mystery of God when God doesn't come through like they say he will. Again, if you have God actually living inside you, as most Christians claim, then these problems should be very easy to explain. If you can't, then God is either holding out on you or, perhaps, you are truly all alone in there. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67065366074188041742010-01-24T09:59:23.252-05:002010-01-24T09:59:23.252-05:00Bill,
Works of compassion are a sign that you fai...Bill,<br /><br />Works of compassion are a sign that you faith is true saving faith. It's not by good deeds alone because then you would be trying to earn it. This is what the Parisees did. It must come from a changed heart in order to be real. It's by grace that God takes out the heart of stone and puts in a heart of flesh. Trusting in God's pardon, God's promises, and God's power and not my own breaks the power of sin and opens my heart up to love.<br /><br /> One difference between a child of God and someone who isn't saved is that when the child of God falls down he gets back up and keeps going. The Holy Spirit convicts the believer and opens his eyes back up to see Christ and His ways as lovely and beautiful. He restores a hatred of sin to the believer. <br /><br />I don't know why God doesn't do it for everyone. I know He's not obligated to save those who reject the Father and don't want to have anything to do with Him though. God is never obligated to be merciful to sinners. Grace is unmerited favor and therefore never owed by God. He cannot be said to be unjust if He doesn't give it to all. Grace is freely given by God. God is under no compulsion to give grace. He's not constrained by anything outside Himself. He freely gives it.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40928654888456608122010-01-24T06:32:57.396-05:002010-01-24T06:32:57.396-05:00I had written this previously, "Dying on the ...I had written this previously, "Dying on the cross is not what saves ppl --- dying is common and universal --- it is His resurrection that saves ppl. "<br /><br />I wrongly wrote this in a way that it could be construed that I believe Christ's death was insignificant. While it is so easy to project an image of an angry and demanding deity upon the divine, Jesus shows us a God Who has total empathy and willingness to come alongside humanity in all our varying stages of existence. Jesus's death was exemplary of a God Who demonstrated compassion for human suffering and death -- I wrongly assigned only one aspect of His life (resurrection) to salvation but His entire existence and the sharing of the Holy Spirit is a witness of the divine and loving nature of God. <br /><br />Bill, you wrote this "The problem is, no matter how much grace is spoken of, God requires faith (according to Christianity) and deeds (according to Jesus), and there is no way to know if one ever has enough faith or deeds to make the cut."<br /><br />The situation you described here is one of a demanding god that leaves ppl feeling unaffirmed and insecure if they have earned his approval - that is an idol created by prideful religion.<br /><br />At any rate, take care,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19704465573675832732010-01-24T05:59:28.336-05:002010-01-24T05:59:28.336-05:00"The one that stands out the strongest, made ...<i>"The one that stands out the strongest, made by a Luvaitcher Jew who proselytizes Noahide (sp?) practice for Gentiles, was that the Torah is something no human or group of humans would construct to serve their own ends. It's just too onerous.</i>"<br /><br />Sheer nonsense. Unless, of course, you are able to argue convincingly that New York was built by alens because it is far too complex and its daily operations far too onerous for it to have been constructed by any individual or groups of individuals. It is the same argument creationists use about evolution. Living beings are far too complex to have come about through natural processes and the energy required just to stay alive too excessive therefore God.Samphirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00327984071854007032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-5110694698178534242010-01-24T01:44:56.395-05:002010-01-24T01:44:56.395-05:00"If God sent Jesus to save the world by dying..."If God sent Jesus to save the world by dying on the cross for our sins (the greater deed) then he should at least be as passionate as Christians are to help people believe (the lesser deeds)." <br /><br />1. Jesus claimed to be One with the Father so we look to Jesus and His Example. It is utterly foolish to think that we can somehow follow the Example of an Infinite Creator Who logically "owns" everyone (unless He disowns you because you are tainted and didn't get untainted).<br /><br />2. What this statement fails to realize is that God is in control of ALL things - including these Christians who are passionate to help people believe. God does the work this way. He works THROUGH the caring of believers. This is just one small part of it, however,<br />because it is a "seed" that is still GROWING (the Church or the Bride of Christ).<br /><br />3. (and there are more points I could make)God COMMANDS these Christians to "do the lesser deed"<br />so your argument or assertion fails at the point at which God both "works through people" a particular way - AND the fact that<br />this work is HIS work and He Alone will receive the glory for it.<br /><br />We are just instruments of His Will. (imperfect in the English because we create things and sin also).<br /><br />"Why would God do the greater deed and not also do the lesser deeds?"<br /><br />He does both..He works through people and through their choices.<br /><br /><br />"This doesn't make sense of an omniscient,(correct)<br /><br />omnibenelovent,(God doesn't love<br />satan and his demons so this English word is clearly incorrect)<br /><br /><br />and omnipotent God. (practically useful, but clearly just as imperfect as using "all powerful" to encompass things which are not logical or not consistent with His Will). If you say "all logically powerful God" and assert the fact that God will only do what it is LOGICAL for Him to do...then you will be further away from gross imperfection...<br /><br />"The excuses given for the paucity of evidence"<br /><br />not excuses..just logical reasoning.<br /> <br />"reveal that the Christian expects way too little from the God they believe in."<br /><br />It is only when you realize how Holy God is that you realize what a violation your sin is against such a Holy Creator. Because people do not realize how Holy God is...they never realize "how great a salvation" it is that they have.<br /><br />God has already surpassed my expectations by showing me how much He loves me by becoming a Man and dying for my transgressions against His Holy nature. I would have NEVER known this if He had started with heaven - at left me at risk of not having the motive I would need for all of eternity to obey Him and trust Him.<br /><br />Where there is partial logic..(and there is ALWAYS partial logic with finite created beings)..more logic is needed.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63445554262454614212010-01-24T01:19:28.790-05:002010-01-24T01:19:28.790-05:00"If God is perfect, then why would he want to..."If God is perfect, then why would he want to act at all?" <br /><br />Perhaps in His Omniscience He knows it is better to give then to receive? Clearly, creating does NOT imply "need." God doesn't somewho "need" anything anymore than He "needs to be God." It is also utterly foolish to accuse God of somehow "needing" worship or appeasing Himself through having us worship Him. This would be evasive to our free will to worship Him...and His ALLOWING us to logically worship Him and thank Him (those of us who WANT to do this for all of eternity).<br /><br /><br />"If God wants to create something outside of himself,this implies he is incomplete."<br /><br />The simple fallacy of this statement is that you would have to be "perfect" in order to judge that 'creating' is somehow an imperfection.<br /><br />This type of flawed reasoning is easy to expose. With logic.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-28257788017149565772010-01-24T01:06:41.956-05:002010-01-24T01:06:41.956-05:00"I once read, " If there is one thing in..."I once read, " If there is one thing in this world that is obvious, it is that God is not obvious." The 38,000 denominations of the christian faith and the 2500 religions that currently exist in this world would seem to any reasonable person a clear example of the truth of that statement." <br /><br />All it is really evidence of is that we are all "learning" and we are all at different stages of our learning.<br /><br />Any two people who think exactly alike on everything...<br /><br />one of them isn't 'thinking.'<br /><br />The fact that we exist in a world of imperfections and complications (a temporary creation to deal with the REAL problem of evil and how it is a danger to a being of choice without motive and knowledge to always choose correctly)is just one of the many reasons why we would EXPECT to have diversity based on where we are in an accumulation of truth.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-2465741440926561622010-01-23T23:06:36.391-05:002010-01-23T23:06:36.391-05:00To Cole: It then becomes a question of how many an...To Cole: It then becomes a question of how many and what quality good works prove true faith, doesn't it?<br /><br />And if faith is a gift from God, then why doesn't everyone have it, or what must be done to receive the gift?<br /><br />But again, Jesus clearly taught that it was works done out of compassion that determined the "sheep" or the "saved." There is no way around this for Christians unless they want to admit that they don't follow Christ.<br /><br />To MMM: You misunderstand me. I don't believe my beliefs either create or uncreate God. I am speaking of salvation. Most Christians would say, in keeping with Pauline doctrine, that salvation is based on believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. You have to believe in Jesus enough to accept him as your personal lord and savior. If you don't, you aren't saved - it is as simply as that. So I am stating that, technically speaking, it is one's beliefs that determine if one is saved or not. The problem is, no matter how much grace is spoken of, God requires faith (according to Christianity) and deeds (according to Jesus), and there is no way to know if one ever has enough faith or deeds to make the cut.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39426264949174701332010-01-23T19:50:08.191-05:002010-01-23T19:50:08.191-05:00Hi Bill = you said, "then it wouldn't mat...Hi Bill = you said, "then it wouldn't matter if you believed in it or not, Jesus' act would be salvific, totally grace."<br /><br />There is total grace -- God loves us before we love Him, independent of our awareness or belief in Him -- that is why He says that He comes to save the blind and deaf. By your standard, your idea of 'god' is that 'his' existence is predicated on our belief of 'him'. That is an idol.<br /><br />Good day,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.com