tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post390753548066729607..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Help Me Convince My Brother, John!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4446140016966757612008-06-10T02:16:00.000-04:002008-06-10T02:16:00.000-04:00Dan, perhaps Ed dramatised the position and used c...Dan, perhaps Ed dramatised the position and used <I>canonize</I> wrongly, but hidden away there is the fact that the Church made a choice on which books to include in the canon of the Church which gave rise to the Bible as we know it. <BR/><BR/>Knowing the history of the bible helps to understand why it is neither inerrant or literal. What Ed seems to have invented is a connection between selecting books to include in the bible and the existence of God.<BR/><BR/>Dan, I leave you to do your research on pagan parallels about which Ed also seems to have drawn the wrong conclusions. <BR/><BR/>But Ed you could do worse than reflect on the parallels between your new faith of atheism and say the beliefs surrounding genocide during the Cultural Revolution (e.g. humans do not have souls). Would you suddenly leap to the conclusion that there is a God? So why on the incidental parallels you "discovered" do you conclude there is no God?<BR/><BR/>Hamba kahle - peaceakakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-64142057727960650702008-06-10T02:02:00.000-04:002008-06-10T02:02:00.000-04:00zilch Atheism is the default position; not a "beli...zilch <I>Atheism is the default position; not a "belief" or "disbelief", but rather the standpoint of not believing in entities for whom there is no evidence.</I> <BR/><BR/>Interesting that you pick an arbitrary default position. I am pleased that in a democracy we don't apply the same "reasoning" to those facing trial and adopt a default of guilty until proven otherwise.<BR/><BR/>Defend your default position - why should it command respect?<BR/><BR/>hamba kahle - peaceakakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-53554754458342250922008-06-10T01:59:00.000-04:002008-06-10T01:59:00.000-04:00Evan, congratulations on demonstrating the intelle...Evan, congratulations on demonstrating the intellectual poverty of your position with your delightful leprechauns example - I could not have asked for more.<BR/><BR/>I guess you are comfortable adopting a belief on "proof" of that calibre - I prefer reasoned thinking.<BR/><BR/>Hamba kahle - peaceakakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-70877379604912210002008-06-10T01:56:00.000-04:002008-06-10T01:56:00.000-04:00it appears that many of those commenting (and Ed i...it appears that many of those commenting (and Ed in his original plea for help) have confused the discovery that the bible is neither inerrant or literal with the question of the existence of God. Ed says <I>My wife still gets very defensive when she knows I'm researching atheism or bible errors!</I> - sorry Ed there is no linkage, creedal Christians have long accepted flaws in the bible yet retain a belief in God - perhaps your family is ahead of there.<BR/><BR/>Hamba kahle - peaceakakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-20459372441088068992008-06-08T09:28:00.000-04:002008-06-08T09:28:00.000-04:00Sorry vote on the canon? Pagan Parallels? What?Sorry vote on the canon? Pagan Parallels? <BR/>What?Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08698506193984946980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55722309949815036952008-06-07T04:45:00.000-04:002008-06-07T04:45:00.000-04:00akawikibear- what evan said. Atheism is the defau...akawikibear- what evan said. Atheism is the default position; not a "belief" or "disbelief", but rather the standpoint of not believing in entities for whom there is no evidence. And of course there are atheists who are "intellectually dishonest" in various ways, just as there are theists who are as well. But in the absence of evidence for God, the position of atheism is not, in itself, "intellectually dishonest".zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27669393827013834722008-06-07T04:18:00.000-04:002008-06-07T04:18:00.000-04:00First I'd like to say, great blog - I found it fro...First I'd like to say, great blog - I found it from Daniel Florien's "Unreasonable Faith" blog.<BR/><BR/>Wow, this is a hard situation to advise on. I've been an atheist for some time now but I've always found it hard to debate it rationally with my Christian family. Evan is absolutely right when he questions why his Christian family don't try and convert him more - are they scared they will lose the argument? Don't they care for his eternal soul?<BR/><BR/>I visited Canada 3 years ago and saw my Dad for the first time in 20 years. His whole family is in the Church, I was the lone atheist in every get-together, but only one or two people ever tried to say anything about Jesus to me - and that was usually a brief (and I thought cowardly) exhortation to "come back to the Lord" rather than a 'debate' giving equal time to both sides.<BR/><BR/>I even suspect that some of my family would love to hear about life outside the Church - but it's all they know! They can't imagine how to live without the support network of the Church, because all their friends and family belong.<BR/><BR/>I agree with the posters who've said you shouldn't turn from being an evangelical Christian to a proselytizing atheist. Accept that they won't listen to you and simply get on with life as much as you can without referring to God. If you can show them that you can still lead a normal life - that you are happy and have purpose in your life - that is a much better advertisement for atheism than the moral anguish you seem to describe.<BR/><BR/>I really wish there were more organisations around to help and support newly de-converted Christians! If anyone knows of any or wants to set one up I'd be glad to join and help!Barry de la Rosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13781723600257306248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61291506051125032982008-06-07T00:34:00.000-04:002008-06-07T00:34:00.000-04:00Akawikibear you say:First, there is no conclusive ...Akawikibear you say:<BR/><BR/><I>First, there is no conclusive proof for theism or atheism - it is a choice, you have made yours on what ever grounds work for you.</I><BR/><BR/>There is no conclusive for for leprechauns and there is no conclusive proof for aleprechaunism.<BR/><BR/>You make a choice based on whatever grounds work for you.<BR/><BR/>One choice is dumb.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31472364138427949272008-06-06T18:08:00.000-04:002008-06-06T18:08:00.000-04:00"then perhaps you may recognise the intellectually..."then perhaps you may recognise the intellectually superior position of being agnostic rather than atheist "<BR/>my, you do have all the answers, don't you? how, please tell, is agnosticism more 'intellectually superior' than atheism? and who made you judge?<BR/>are you agnostic about the existance of santa? I doubt it. sure, you can't prove a negative, can't PROVE he doesn't exist, but all the claims about him cannot be true by logic. he can't get to all houses in one night. it is impossible. he can't actually know if the kids were naughty or nice. there are no photos or physical evidence not explained by parents or others in costume. so belief in santa flies in the face of known facts. there is nothing about the santa myth that makes being open to its truth more intellectually honest than saying it is all a flat out made up thing. christianity and indeed the existance of any god or any spirit is exactly like that for me and many atheists, except that christianity being a much more complex myth, leaves many many more opportunties for contradiction, impossibility, illogic, and well, outright lies. for me to claim that i am even one iota open to the possibility of any of it being true would be intellectually dishonest. i find my willingness to give up believing in the fuzzy cozy myth to be intellectually SUPERIOR as well a intellectually honest.goprairiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532311590000341237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27642361993733595692008-06-06T01:40:00.000-04:002008-06-06T01:40:00.000-04:00brother crow "Atheism/agnosticism is not fun. It i...brother crow <I>"Atheism/agnosticism is not fun. It is not a day at the park. Faith is a so much easier...all it requires is mindless belief and intellectual dishonesty or denial.</I> - oh please, so there is no intellectual dishonesty in atheism? ... your very statement is proof that there is.<BR/><BR/>I would rather you thought about before you popped off a mindless reply.<BR/><BR/>Hamba kahle - peaceakakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15519330457071079832008-06-06T01:37:00.000-04:002008-06-06T01:37:00.000-04:00Ed, two comments that may be helpful to you.First,...Ed, two comments that may be helpful to you.<BR/><BR/>First, there is no conclusive proof for theism or atheism - it is a choice, you have made yours on what ever grounds work for you. Acknowledge that this is a choice and allow others to make theirs, after all they have valid rational reasoning to support their position.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, your atheist faith is clearly strong and vibrant right now. This is what is usually seen in new converts to Christianity or Islam or Krishna and even Scientology or the local rotary club. Yes it causes frustration as you want to share your "truth" - but is your "truth". Like other religious converts your ardour will most likely become more rational and less emotional over time, then perhaps you may recognise the intellectually superior position of being agnostic rather than atheist - who knows you even get religion.<BR/><BR/>Hamba kahle - peaceakakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81712304141928794302008-06-05T01:33:00.000-04:002008-06-05T01:33:00.000-04:00"processing of sensory input by various parts of o..."<I>processing of sensory input by various parts of our brain and communication among the parts that gives us the sense that there is some 'other', be it a soul beyond our physical being or a higher power or many invisible beings</I>"<BR/><BR/>On this note and what you were talking about funerals, I have come up with a method of thinking about this that I cooked up during psychology class. My professor said that what a lot of people may attribute to the "soul" is what others may attribute to "memory". The saying goes "if a tree falls in the forest, does anybody hear it". I like to think, if a life goes unremembered after it's over, did it really happen? Though I don't believe there is such a thing as the soul, I do feel there is something "<I>spiritual</I>", for lack of a better word, about having people share memories of a loved one after they pass away. On that note, I encourage non-believers to live a life worth being remembered so that their soul/memory can go on after they are gone.Emilio Mejia Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11570660876856636432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52909544773369774482008-06-04T21:35:00.000-04:002008-06-04T21:35:00.000-04:00"It's kind of a harsh reality in some ways."Which ..."It's kind of a harsh reality in some ways."<BR/>Which is probably why it got made up in the first place. I remain convinced that it is something to do with timing of processing of sensory input by various parts of our brain and communication among the parts that gives us the sense that there is some 'other', be it a soul beyond our physical being or a higher power or many invisible beings, and it is that warm fuzzy you get from the idea that some part of you never dies that keeps it goin' so stong. it is relatively easy to give up god once you start looking at the evidence or lack thereof, but quite a bit harder to give up souls, because the are mroe personal and we are more needy of them. It is hard to accept that this is all we are going to get and that we will not have a chance to see all those that we naively assumed we would again see in some afterlife. <BR/>And it is such a huge part of our culture. Once you give it up, how do you act at a funeral? It all rings pretty hollow and if it your loved one who died, all the nonsense about being reunited with them can make you kinda sick. and if they had a terminal illness that lingered, you hear how they are in a better place now and that can make you downright angry. so it takes a while after you comepletely give up god and souls to figure out how to act in a christian society where there are references to it everywhere along with the assumption that you beleive in it. it takes a while to figure out what to say, how mch to say, how much to let go, how to let it go gracefully without feeling like you are compromising your principles too much. it helps to have a friend who has been out longer to call and say 'im going to my first funeral as an out atheist - got any tips?' and later, you pay that back by being the one who newly deconverted can call on for tips.goprairiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532311590000341237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52938707662164008432008-06-04T18:44:00.000-04:002008-06-04T18:44:00.000-04:00Geez, leave the poor guy alone. You've given him t...Geez, leave the poor guy alone. You've given him the information and he rejects it. <BR/><BR/>You can't do any more to "convince" someone of the truth. Give it up. Maybe some people just can't handle a universe without God and an afterlife. It's kind of a harsh reality in some ways.Reason's Whorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09386477323714963087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90283074569838168702008-06-04T15:57:00.000-04:002008-06-04T15:57:00.000-04:00I guess I'm a total freak. I really enjoy my Chris...I guess I'm a total freak. I really enjoy my Christian friends, which include my wife and my two best friends. I enjoy discussing theology with them, discussing apologetics with them, teaching them apologetics, suggesting ways to strengthen their arguments, etc. If they ask why I'm not convinced by such arguments, I point to the premises that I think lack plausibility, and just rest content if they disagree.exapologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09915579495149582531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19366167273082932192008-06-04T14:53:00.000-04:002008-06-04T14:53:00.000-04:00So where do you go from here?Maybe there are thing...So where do you go from here?<BR/><BR/>Maybe there are things in your life that you or others in your life have wanted to change, but you'd never had the motivation to do it before. Now, with a new lease on life, maybe you can do it. Maybe if your whole life has revolved around a church and it's mundane concerns, you'd enjoy going to the swap meet/flea market or visit a historical site with your wife on a Sunday afternoon instead of spending the whole day in church. Maybe you and your brother used to enjoy fishing or watching stupid monster movies, a shared interest that you let fall by the wayside, and now can reconnect through that. Or maybe your wife was the one who liked watching stupid monster movies with you, and you stopped doing it, for whatever reason.<BR/><BR/>Even if these things don't apply, this could well be a time of great discovery for you, of finding or re-discovering things in your life and your connections with other people that you hadn't noticed or appreciated before, and being free at last to pursue them or make the most of them as you see fit, without dogma to stand in your way.<BR/><BR/>I think the other people who encouraged you to connect with other atheists/agnostics in your area is a good one. I've always been a loner, but most people aren't. They need to know they're not alone, that they're not crazy, that there are others like them out there.<BR/><BR/>Most evangelicals are accustomed to a great deal of social interaction, thanks to church alone. You're used to having people around, sharing experiences. It was used against you as I'm sure you know, but you're still in a vulnerable stage where you need an outlet for expressing your questions, concerns and excitement with this radical change in your life. <BR/><BR/>Other atheists can help you understand how to interact with the religious in a way that is positive and constructive, but without having you compromise your position or your integrity. Of course, some atheists are very confrontational, but not all of them. You may need to try out a few different groups, if such is available to you. As someone mentioned, check Richard Dawkins' site or meetup for any groups in your area.<BR/><BR/>If all else fails, you might consider attending a Unitarian-Universalist church. All the ones I've ever been to are chock full of atheists and agnostics looking for a safe way to hook up in more conservative parts of the country. It might also be a good transition vehicle for someone who's been involved in churches as intently as you probably have, since you will have the structure of church with U/U, but the freedom of thought you've now discovered.<BR/><BR/>Going to a U/U church might even work to help other people in your life ease into your change, since going to a church will at least be something they can relate to. It may give them some sense that you're not completely hopeless, and they might even back off. I can't say for sure, and I won't, especially if your previous faith was the extremely intolerant, insular type. If that's the case, U/U might not appease your family in the least.<BR/><BR/>But give it a try. You never know.<BR/><BR/>Deconverting is hard, but it doesn't have to be unbearable. It looks like you have a lot of people here who are eager to help. Don't be afraid to ask for it, when you need it.<BR/><BR/>So much for atheists not being supportive and compassionate, huh?Aquariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07578444793424041263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-48786934545597051332008-06-04T14:52:00.000-04:002008-06-04T14:52:00.000-04:00Ed:I can't imagine what this is like. I've been lu...Ed:<BR/><BR/>I can't imagine what this is like. I've been lucky enough to spend most of my life in an intolerant part of the country, but in a supportive, more-or-less irreligious family.<BR/><BR/>But I've noticed some things about deconversions (and conversions), and perhaps I can offer a little insight that might help you cope with all that's happening in your life now.<BR/><BR/>Think of your deconversion as an earthquake. Like the earthquake, it had been building a long time, and the right forces came together to cause the rupture of the foundation of all you thought solid beneath you. You may have been aware of some warning shocks in advance, a few rumbles here and there that weren't noticed or taken seriously. Now you know better. How strong the quake was, how many aftershocks that follow, very much depend on how much stresses and pressures were at work before the quake. In the case of many evangelicals, there were a lot. That usually translates to a sizable quake.<BR/><BR/>As with an earthquake, you don't have much control over what stands and what falls after this. If you've ever seen the effects of a quake, you know that some structures will fall while the house next door will remain standing. The reasons for this vary, and they don't really matter. Some things will be destroyed. And some things won't. Some things will have minor to major damage, and some will have none at all. Some of the things that were damaged or destroyed can be fixed, rebuilt or replaced. And some can't.<BR/><BR/>--more in next post--<BR/><BR/>In the aftermath of quakes, there is fear of course. Some people stay scared. Sometimes, the aftershocks are so strong that others can't quite let it go for a while. This could very well apply to your situation; it certainly sounds like you're still having some strong aftershocks there. You'll need to find a constructive way to ride them out until things settle down. Getting angry with your brother or wife for not sharing your view of the quake as a good thing isn't constructive.<BR/><BR/>You have to remember, that those around you are probably angry, too. Everything they have known before the quake is completely different. They want things to be like they were before. But they can't be. And they don't have much choice about it. That tends to upset people. Some of them never stop being mad about it.<BR/><BR/>A part of you is of course upset at the pain the quake has caused in the lives of others, but know that you can't change what happened or pretend it didn't happen. It's done now. All you can do is move forward from here, and patch up the things you can as best you can, and in a way that is better suited to the new environment the quake has left in its wake.<BR/><BR/>You don't have to do everything. Some things, others will have to do for themselves, in their own way, and the way they think best. For some of them, it will mean moving on--they can't cope with all the change the quake has wrought, or the fear of another one. You'll have to respect that choice. But some people will hang in there, whether from sheer determination, orneriness, or, incredibly, laziness. It's just too much effort to pull up stakes and move on, so why not stick around. You'd be amazed how many people in your life will fall into that last category.<BR/><BR/>But, hey, not all the changes have to be bad. These are some things I heard from Californians about quakes:<BR/><BR/>"A whole bunch of boulders tumbled into my yard. What a mess, but, hey, I'd been thinking about putting in a rock garden, and I suddenly had a whole bunch of free material!"<BR/><BR/>or...<BR/><BR/>"Thank goodness for the quake. I'd wanted to get rid of that Brady Bunch bathroom (or move somewhere else) for years."<BR/><BR/>These things sound silly, but they demonstrate that some people will find something good in something that was once very challenging, even devastating. They didn't let the quake break them. Heck, some people even seemed a little grateful for getting the push to make some changes.<BR/><BR/>--more in next post--Aquariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07578444793424041263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46053888740819869922008-06-04T11:54:00.000-04:002008-06-04T11:54:00.000-04:00Ed, I have a little advice that, like most, you ca...Ed, I have a little advice that, like most, you can take or leave.<BR/><BR/>First, let them come to you. You have already made your case, so to speak. Some of what you have said in your discussions with your brother may eventually sink in. However, it will likely take some time.<BR/><BR/>Have patience with these people, remember that they are brainwashed, just like a lot of us used to be. It's that simple. Sometimes, it takes a long time for reality to set in.<BR/><BR/>When dealing with people, don't make an effort to bring up the subject of belief, or lack of it. Let others bring it up and engage them in a calm manner if the situation presents itself.<BR/><BR/>Other folks have commented that there is little difference between an evangelical Christian and an evangelical Atheist. True. Keep in mind just how annoying evangelical Christians can be when they are on the hunt for souls to save.<BR/><BR/>It would not hurt if you changed your focus ever so slightly, too. It's exciting to discover newfound Atheism, and drink in all of the knowledge you're discovering. But there is more to life than belief in a god, or lack of it.<BR/><BR/>There are public service oriented clubs and organizations that you can join, ones not centered on religion. There are a lot of people who suffer in this world, and sometimes one person's time and effort (not always money) can help them a lot.<BR/><BR/>There are hobbies to engage in. Your hobby used to be religion. Find a new one. There are other ways to enrich your life, and other people's lives as well. <BR/><BR/>In short, show those people that Atheists are not scary, horrible people. We just don't share a certain set of beliefs. We do care about our fellow human beings in real, demonstrably material ways. It helps if we show that by example. <BR/><BR/>I hope that did not come off as lecturing. The point that I am trying to make is that while your journey to rationality is an exciting one, there is more to life.<BR/><BR/>Good luck.kb9alnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07054230930250257464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49205731468945238472008-06-04T11:33:00.000-04:002008-06-04T11:33:00.000-04:00Ed,As someone who de-converted a year ago I am not...Ed,<BR/>As someone who de-converted a year ago I am not that far from where you are. I still attend church with my wife from time to time. Yes it will drive you crazy, but call it a love thing. I do it for her. She has gone from a fundamentalist to a very liberal christian in the past year. I don't try to convert her to my way of thinking, but I will interject into our conversations from time to time problems that critical scholars have found with various biblical text.<BR/><BR/>She has learned through this past year that if you call the bible inerrant or infallible you have to hold it to a different standard and actually change the definition of those terms.<BR/><BR/>I am probably a better husband and father as an atheist / agnostic than I ever was as a theist. And my family would tell you I was very good then.<BR/><BR/>The reason that I do not try to change friends and family is that I have come to realize that many times people NEED their delusion. I have a mother recently diagnosed with alzhiemers, my parents have been christians all their life, they are typical southern church going people, wouldn't know a theological concept or a critical analysis of scripture if it stole the social security check. All they know is that the are old, mom is sick and they don't want to go to hell. They cannot be evangelized, I wouldn't ever try.<BR/><BR/>There are many who even if they are not old NEED their delusion. Love them (family and friends) with every fiber of your being and support them in their need. I had a friend ask me the other day to pray with him. I did. It made him feel better. Do I believe anyone heard my prayer? He did. If he asked me for to explain what I believe? I'll tell him. I won't attempt an explanation if their isn't sufficient time to cover the subject adequately. I hated bumper sticker christians and bumper sticker atheist are just as dumb.<BR/><BR/>It's going to be OK. Just relax and enjoy your friends and family. Carpe diem. When its over, its over.leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16371409643400358786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-79150874455301714962008-06-04T10:44:00.000-04:002008-06-04T10:44:00.000-04:00One last thought. I am not of the belief in man a...One last thought. I am not of the belief in man as a rational being. Rather, man has a rational aspect to his thinking. The import of this should be clear. Our rational thought processes are an addition to what is basically an emotional response system. Our emotions are our primary means of survival (or at least they used to be in our cave-man days). That is why the emotional appeal trumps the logical appeal for most people most of the time. Until such time as that emotional center in our brain structure modifies to one based on a more rationalist POV (in my mind, this will never happen), nutty emotionally based belief systems will be the norm, not the exception.Bloviatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17214282017266183128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84425386311146607462008-06-04T10:43:00.000-04:002008-06-04T10:43:00.000-04:00now that i have expressed a fairly one sided 'leav...now that i have expressed a fairly one sided 'leave the silly christians alone' opinion, i will moderate it a bit. for along time i kept my 'religious orientation' a secret. when my son who was 14 then, 'came out' as an atheist, i felt obligated to be honest that i was too to support him and because i was eager for someone to talk over ideas with. it is stressful to keep it a secret. but I did not tell people in a challenging or offensive way, but rather just as a fact when the topic next came up - 'as an atheist, i see that a bit differently . . .' for example. some friends heard it from others - some told me it upset them, some said they would pray i would find god again, some said they had never beleived very strongly either. but i resisted the urge to tell anyone how stupid i thought it all was, unless i knew they were non-beleivers too. (tho one of my pet peeves (in addition to the term pet peeve) is the spike in the rate of christian charity at christmas time and the general lack thereof the entire rest of the year, so it is hard to shut up about that at christmas.) but just casually making my status know allowed people who were questioning to know where i was so that they could ask questions and we could talk about it. so while I am mostly not in favor of trying to deconvert anyone, i am in favor of these things:<BR/>1) making sure people know you are an atheist so that if they need help or support, they know you are there<BR/>2) keeping religion from hampering freedom to NOT beleive - many people thing the religious freedom guaranteed by our constitution means the right to be any religion you want, but they do not get that that includes not having ANY religion. so to them, a silent moment of prayer in school is fine because it allows anyone to pray in their own way. but it is NOT okay because it implies government support of the idea that atheism - LACK of any religion - is bad. so i am vigilent and outspoken about freedom of religion needing to include the right to have no religion, and so do what i can to keep it out of state matters and get it out in areas it currently is pervasive. i.e. keeping and increasing separation of church and state.<BR/>3) when ethics or morality comeup. i am very adamant that these are not due to religion but due to evolution as animals, as primates, as social creatures and are largely instinctive and that 'evil' is an instint or two or more gone defective - so if someone uses the term 'good christian' when they really just mean 'good' i will challenge them, or when they advocate ten commandments i will point out how flawed and incomplete they are and so on. religion and ethics/morality are unrelated and i will argue that when and where i can.<BR/>4) failure by christians to be tolerant of others in the same way they expect to be tolerated. people who say the quran advocates violence are bound to get an earful from me on how the bible is too.<BR/>so i feel obliged here to admit that i am not as cuddly as i might have been seeming. i just make no effort to deconvert anyone specifically. if they have questions, i am honest. and i do have those issues that i would not let pass, any more than i would let an issue related to race, gender bias, bad environmental policy, etc. go by without comment.goprairiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532311590000341237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71150826844020723192008-06-04T10:05:00.000-04:002008-06-04T10:05:00.000-04:00Wow, does this one ever resonate with me! Ed, I a...Wow, does this one ever resonate with me! Ed, I am with you in spirit (if there be such a thing) as I am in a similar situation with both my brother and wife. My wife knows 'something is up', but my brother is in blissful ignorance. I want to shout it from the rooftops "you are all INSANE for believing this stuff!!", but I am old enough and intelligent enough to realize the folly of such.<BR/><BR/>My blood also rages when things natural are attributed to god. Just a few days ago, a double rainbow appeared and my wife instantly said 'what a great gift for god to give us'. Same thing happens anytime a somewhat rare bird flies by 'what a gift!'. It does drive me nuts inside, but I am just quiet at these exclamations. She is not a fundamentalist, but is rather a modern-day evangelical. In my one attempt at discussion, she asked what happened and I said "I think I grew up". You would have thought I had just slapped her face and called her a cunt. I now realize just how PERSONAL people take their faith (hard for me as I have Asperger's Syndrome).<BR/><BR/>My brother, who in many regards is a wonderful man, good father, funny-as-hell guy and the type of friend many would line up to have, is a literal bible-believer (no evolution, the Ark was real, etc.). There is no use arguing with him on these subjects, and to his credit, he refuses to be drawn into such discussions.<BR/><BR/>I am not from a fundie background, and his fundamentalism is a cause of concern for the rest of the family. Indeed, my mother-in-law is an atheist since the '40s and my own parents are a mix of semi-belief (mom) and probable non-belief (dad). That has been a godsend (pun intended)for me as I get to have a sounding board for my thoughts and feelings.<BR/><BR/>I have trouble, as I see you do, accepting that others can have such a different viewpoint than I, and that they can't see 'clearly'. Perhaps that says more about me than it does about them (think about my brother: believer who doesn't push). <BR/><BR/>Anyway, I have found some recent comfort in Buddhist writings, especially the concept of just accepting what is. <BR/><BR/>I can't speak for others, but when I find out something interesting or meaningful, part of the joy is in sharing it with others. With non-belief, this joy often becomes pain, as most do not (and most likely never will) share my point of view. My wife and brother are the most important people in my life, so I have a natural desire to share with them. Sadly, this is not to be.<BR/><BR/>I believe others have commented in a similar manner, but if my rational belief is one worth having, I might borrow from the writings of Paul and conduct my life with a certain sense of decency, humility, and love. Perhaps then my loved ones will see I am not an 'angry atheist' or 'deceived by Satan' or some such shit, but rather just a human being, one who still loves and cares and helps as he did when once a believer, now with god-belief replaced by love of my fellow human travelers.<BR/><BR/>Best of luck to you in your journey.Bloviatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17214282017266183128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77133878690687524792008-06-04T03:50:00.000-04:002008-06-04T03:50:00.000-04:00Wow! I've been reading DC for a while, but this i...Wow! I've been reading DC for a while, but this is the post that has affected me the most. I completely understand what Ed is feeling like, as well as the others that have posted similar comments. I get an uncontrollable rage when I hear anything religious being attributed to natural events. Only recently have I begun to let things go.<BR/><BR/>I just want to say thank you to every single person that commented, and a special thanks to John for his letter to Ed, and by connection, to me. If you don't mind, I'd like to repost it in my personal blog since I have used it to vent my rage in the past. I think it would be helpful to my friends and readers to understand where we come from.<BR/><BR/>Special thanks to goprairie who said: "<I>you went from religious fanatic who needed to save everyone to atheist fanatic who wants to save everyone.</I>" This is what has been letting me mellow out is working hard to not become the very thing I dislike so much about religion.<BR/><BR/>Thanks to this entire community though for giving me a rage outlet, and for reminding me that I'm not the only one with reason.Emilio Mejia Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11570660876856636432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52633584552259510962008-06-04T02:44:00.000-04:002008-06-04T02:44:00.000-04:00From my experience there is nothing you can do to ...From my experience there is nothing you can do to change a christian mind unless you challenge his epistemology. Christians adhere to an supernatural, authoritarian, revelational epistemology while most atheist adhere to a naturalistic epistemology.<BR/>What a religious person needs to understand first is that by adhering to a non-naturalistic epistemology they pretty much give up the right to make any claims beyound this claim "Truth is outside nature". Giving the epistemologic premise of a religious person ("truth is in a book") every person should be entitled to choose a book where he/she believes the truth exist.<BR/><BR/>I've made a little case for naturalism on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK0sw_21fVQ (part 1) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTkLvS13EHg (part 2)<BR/><BR/>What you, as an atheist must understand is that you have an epistemological premise that cannot be tested (mine is "nature is true") from what you base all your knowledge. All you know that it is truth is based on that untestable epistemological premise that can be proven to be false. In my case maybe nature is no true because I'm in a computer game or God is a liar. I have no way to test my epistemological premise.<BR/><BR/>And everybody is entitled to their epistemological premise. What christians don't know is that in order to be true to their epistemological premise they have to follow it to its logical conclusions. Some of them are: evolution didn't happen, god is despicable, supernaturalistic claims are conversation stoppers, revelational "truths" shows arrogance etc.Logosferahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231542536398128476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-20614249669541324962008-06-04T00:59:00.000-04:002008-06-04T00:59:00.000-04:00Hi Ed, It's damned fustrating to see people so eas...Hi Ed, It's damned fustrating to see people so easily duped into believing a 6000 year collection of ancient bronze age myths, especially in a day of modern technology and space age travel???<BR/><BR/>It's like, why don't we all just return to living in tents and burn a damned goat to appease the gods? <BR/><BR/>If it was good enough for Jesus, we could live just like him, in filth and total ignorance?<BR/><BR/>Another thing, for some reason kin people seem to take much more offence to our appeals than they would a total stranger, I have never understood this quandry, you would think that someone of kin would say you know what, I don't think you would intentionally mislead me and I've always had my doubts about that preacher that they shipped in here from Porto Rico, but hell no they will stand firm in their faith, because they have made a verbal vow of allegiance to Jesus in return for the use of their brains, in essence have handed over their very cause for existing in exchange for a promise that they have confirmed in their minds is unsinkable truth..a good example, jamie steele. <BR/><BR/>Now here is some breaking news, a bit of ammo, which has been mostly gone unreported...a new amazon tribe just recently been discovered whom has never had contact with the white man and his culture.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,360361,00.html" REL="nofollow">Link</A><BR/><BR/><BR/>Now I would suggest that you show this information to your brother and ask him how this tribe has survived all these years without ever hearing the gospel message of Jesus Christ? <BR/><BR/>This I want to know for myself, because how have these people lived all these years and generations have died without the knowledge of a heaven or a hell, Jesus or the Bible god or an invisible soul?<BR/><BR/>I want a Christian to answer this question, without the usual, We will never know the mind of god, or his ways are not our ways, or jesus' gospel has not yet been fulfilled..bs.<BR/><BR/>Good Luck, EdSteven Bentlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16139666223082953913noreply@blogger.com