tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post3706414544113436923..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: My Path Out of ChristianityUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13262275140103588442010-04-13T13:00:30.516-04:002010-04-13T13:00:30.516-04:00Touchstone, you answered the epistemology criteria...Touchstone, you answered the epistemology criteria question with, "Evidence from sense-data, logical reasoning and analsys, validation, skeptcism. These are the only tools I'm aware for adjudicating these matters, or any matters."<br /><br />That seems like an awful lot of faith to put in yourself, your powers of critical thinking such as they are and your eyes, ears etc. You write that you're 40+ years old. Should I worry about your senses and phenomena-grasping capabilities?<br /><br />Is your journey enough for everyone else? If not enough for everyone, is maintenance of their faith systems (whatever they are) wrong intrinsically or just wrong for you (to personally adopt) or are you just saying that you are content to believe personally that they're wrong? <br /><br />If your journey is enough for everyone else, what is the consequence of disagreement with you and how will you enforce it?<br /><br />Should I worry that you might someday try to coerce agreement with you? If not, why not? Because you say so? You've already said you walked away from something that was a fundamental (pardon the pun) part of you for the bulk of you life. You will forgive me if new promises and assurances of personal sincerity ring somewhat hollow - based on the sensory evidence and all.<br /><br />On what basis would you have me believe you when all justification and prior motivation for historic actions and conformance with a "social or religiously based morality" have been so thoroughly removed?<br /><br />Your story could be a joke I suppose.<br /><br />Or this comment could be too. :D<br /><br />Hail Eris.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09460807543143099642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-74528216202663613922008-09-29T15:50:00.000-04:002008-09-29T15:50:00.000-04:00Well I do not believe it to be an accident that I ...Well I do not believe it to be an accident that I came across this page.I am not a Christian full of hate or judgment it is not my place with that being said ,I do believe that those here need to know that the Lord loves them ,even when we reject him .I pray that instead of looking to the church,the world or any convertion you make it personal and get to know Jesus yourself.I know by doing this your view would be different .I pray you find the strength ,wisdom and desire to do so ....sincerely your sister in ChristBecky whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06309522669240370496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-80192944274081594532008-09-27T21:08:00.000-04:002008-09-27T21:08:00.000-04:00Touchstone,First, I would like to apologize for ch...Touchstone,<BR/><BR/>First, I would like to apologize for charlieonthet's prior comment. I hope that his condemnation finds him out.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I am new here and I hope you would permit me a few questions.<BR/><BR/>You say: “One by one, though, all of these fell apart under skeptical, honest review.” <BR/><BR/>Aren’t you making an a priori assumption that honesty directly correlates with skepticism? <BR/><BR/>You say: “Reading Bahnsen, Frame, Poythress, Plantinga and rest of the Reformed philosophers made the picture bleaker still, a kind of demon-apologetic wearing a cross, and carrying a Bible.”<BR/><BR/>Was it the apologetic that was intimidating or was it the Calvinism that came packaged with it?<BR/><BR/>You say: “I had arrived at atheism in my application of honesty, introspection, and fair appraisal of the evidence and issues involved.”<BR/><BR/>Once again, you conjecture a position of neutrality by which you arrive at atheism. Do you believe that it is possible to be free of all presuppositional starting points, of which both doubt and faith find homes in?Natrimonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15425916896906652992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24573062321261277052008-09-24T15:45:00.000-04:002008-09-24T15:45:00.000-04:00To borrow some of your parliance, I was/am a perso...To borrow some of your parliance, I was/am a personal witness to every detail of this "testimony" being a D*** F***ING LIE.<BR/><BR/>God has said, regardless of how acceptable you deem it:<BR/><BR/>Actually let's start with this:<BR/><BR/>Isaiah 2:22 "Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils; for why should he be esteemed?"<BR/><BR/>And much more to the point:<BR/><BR/>"And you neglected all my counsel and did not want my reproof; I will also laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your dread comes,<BR/> when your dread comes like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but they will not find me, because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD. They would not accept my counsel, they spurned all my reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices. For the waywardness of the naive will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them. But he who listens to me shall live securely and will be at ease from the dread of evil."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83326408401514576722008-08-22T18:29:00.000-04:002008-08-22T18:29:00.000-04:00Amazing. As I read your account of your decision t...Amazing. As I read your account of your decision to un-Christian yourself many things came to mind. The first was that I felt sorry that your experiences in your Christian walk had led you to this new life choice. I saw that you were most likely surrounding by people that see being a Christian as "the thing to be" and use the Bible as a rule book on how to live life. <BR/><BR/>I have only recently became a Christian. I was not raised in a Christian home, none of my family or friends are Christians. I came to the choice to live a life pleasing to God due to my own curiousity and investigation of Christianity and the Bible. I do not feel that I am worshiping something "supernatural". Jesus is. God is. The Holy Spirit is. However, I do not feel that I can behave however I choose and that God will forgive me. I want to desire God, desire Jesus. I want to be as Jesus is. I want to model my life, my choices, my desires after those of Jesus. This is not easy or simple. It is the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life. I imagine you are thinking that the reason for my choice is eternal life. In all actuality, my choice has as much to do with this earthly life as my eternal life. I value both. I do not want to waste my days on this planet in this body behaving in a way that serves the enemy anymore. <BR/><BR/>As I look around me through eyes that now see, I see a world that the enemy controls. The people of this world are allowing the control to happen. I am saddened by what we are bombarded with on a daily basis, the things that our children are subjected to. I am saddened by the many Christians that have not allowed God to truly live in their heart and instead choose to serve God by attempting to live by "rules". If God truly lives in your heart, if you truly want to follow Gods path, living a life of Grace is available to those that allow Him to saturate their heart. <BR/><BR/>No one on this earth can love you like Jesus, like God. No one on this earth can fulfill your every need like Jesus, like God. Anything can be discounted, made trivial, if you look hard enough. The enemy will always provide you an answer to discredit Him every time you question Him. That isn't surprising, is it? The enemy will stop at nothing to keep this human race in his grasp. <BR/><BR/>I am sorry that you needed to question, I am sorry that Faith wasn't enough to take you through the time in your life that you shared in your blog. I wish that I could explain more to you, about truly opening your heart to God.Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07276466635642700708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61353542127298324982008-08-17T20:37:00.000-04:002008-08-17T20:37:00.000-04:00Touchstone,Good post. I'm a recent reader of this ...Touchstone,<BR/>Good post. I'm a recent reader of this blog and it gives me some comfort to see that I'm not the only one who suffers from sever doubt. So sever that one calls oneself an agnostic or atheist. I’m still on the fence, someday thinking I’m an agnostic and some a Christian with doubt. It troubles me to see that there are some who don’t share with their spouse their problems with doubt. My wife has been my best support during this tough time.<BR/><BR/>I know that it is tough and feels not worth the struggle, but I would keep searching for the truth. It is easy to dismiss Christian fundamentalism, and all the other issues with religion. I came from a denomination which thought that most of fundamentalism was crap anyways. Christianity is very broad, and there are Christians who are pro-choice, evolutionist, who understand there are many difficulties with Christian beliefs. So don’t just dismiss Christianity out of hand because of the crazy right wing fundies. <BR/><BR/>I definitely don’t have many satisfying answers, which is why today I feel more like an agnostic. But I have just a glimmer of doubt that there might be more than this natural world, that maybe there is a God who loves me. . . or maybe there’s not. But I’m still trying to work it out.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14870492079455572393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75418770456535347362008-08-12T02:29:00.000-04:002008-08-12T02:29:00.000-04:00chuck,What specific objections convinced you that ...chuck,<BR/><BR/><I>What specific objections convinced you that the philosophical case for theism "fell apart"? You leave the readers guessing. Why?</I><BR/>This post got overlong as it was. It would have ended up as a full length book, were I to answer your question as I'd like to. I'll make a point to traverse the philosophical arguments and their (so I say) failures as a set of future posts. But one example that pops to mind is William Lane Craig's argument regarding "objective moral values", an argument I casually endorsed for a long time, but which, under some examination, completely fell apart, or rather, inverted itself, resulting in theism unavoidably advocating for moral values as fundamentally *subjective*, the "subject-centric" proceeds of the will and mind of God.<BR/><BR/>I don't want to get too far afield in the combox for this post on that, but that's a quick synopsis of a "standby" of Bill Craig's (whom I used to think fairly highly of, although without much familiarity of the details behind his arguments) argument that became quite problematic under examination (and it's much worse than that -- on the other side of the ledger, 'objective morality' is still a tricky subject for the atheist, but if there is such a thing as objective moral values, they are obtained on atheistic grounds).<BR/><BR/>Stay tuned on that point, and I'll visit an array of others as well.<BR/><I><BR/>Also, did you think critically about whether these objections were successful?</I><BR/>Well, it's important to keep in mind that just because Bill Craig is offering you bag full of BS (with a friendly smile, of course), it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. All the apologists out there could be offering terrible, nonsensical arguments, and that would not suffice to disprove God. He may exist in spite of all the theistic shenanigans, right?<BR/><BR/>But for me, the failure of many of these arguments didn't disprove God, it just remained parts of my (putative) justification for believing in the first place. I had other reasons to believe, that failed for other reasons, but the failure of theistic philosophical arguments -- across the board -- weakened the foundation of my belief. I relied, in part, on the soundness and integrity of some of those arguments.<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>What methodological and/or epistemological criteria (if any) did you assume during your rigorous theory adjudication?</I><BR/>Evidence from sense-data, logical reasoning and analsys, validation, skeptcism. These are the only tools I'm aware for adjudicating these matters, or any matters.<BR/><I><BR/>Providing the details (the actual arguments that, in your judgment, refuted theism) might be helpful, since none of the other testimonies on DC have ever done so.</I><BR/>I don't know that that's true, but even if it is, I suggest there's a practical reason for their absence from posts like this: it's difficult to keep the post focused and moving enough that people will actually read it as it is. A decent deconstruction on Craig's "objective moral values" argument -- one of just many in my case to look at -- would serious distract, and bore the reader hoping to "learn my story". <BR/><BR/>I think DC here may be a good outlet for providing some detailed analysis and discussion on the various poverties of theistic philosophical arguments. Atheistic arguments have their own problems, but in comparison to the theistic arguments, their problems are manageable, tangential or even superable. The theistic philosophical arguments aren't anywhere near that kind of gravity, in my view. <BR/><BR/>As I said, keep reading the blog if you are interested.<BR/><BR/>-TSTouchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24325365824014310192008-08-12T02:07:00.000-04:002008-08-12T02:07:00.000-04:00goprairie,Good comments and cautions, thanks. Some...goprairie,<BR/><BR/>Good comments and cautions, thanks. Some of these people who are apprehensive about this are people I love, so I'm definitely sensitive to the problems that doubts and disconfirmation hold out for them. That's an consideration that has 'gravity', here, for sure. <BR/><BR/>But as you surely know, there's only so vague and non-committal one can be in life, in tight proximity to family and friends. At some point, and on some level, you will provide words and actions that reflect what you (ostensibly) believe. It may be traumatic, and should be handled with care because of that, but there's really little point in being an atheist at all if you aren't committed to being basically honest, to having your insides and your outsides match in a coherent an consistent way. <BR/><BR/>Life's got tough circumstances sometimes -- another lesson that atheists accept with equanimity, right? For some, there will be a conflict betwen basic honesty for the unbeliever and comfort/stasis for believers around him. I'm all for being gracious and sensitive in dealing with the emotional and social dynamics that come into play with those around me, but damned[sic] if I'm going to declare my belief and assent to claims and ideologies that are quite antithetical to what I actually believe.<BR/><BR/>I think we can find common ground on this, though: in many cases, we do have the option of just keeping our mouths shut. Saying nothing quite often will do just fine, and represents no ethical or honesty conflicts at all, and provides all manner of space, comfort and freedom for others around me who have and share beliefs that are at odds with mine.<BR/><BR/>-TSTouchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84701801212176323052008-08-11T18:07:00.000-04:002008-08-11T18:07:00.000-04:00What specific objections convinced you that the ph...What specific objections convinced you that the philosophical case for theism "fell apart"? You leave the readers guessing. Why?<BR/><BR/>Also, did you think critically about whether these objections were successful? <BR/><BR/>What methodological and/or epistemological criteria (if any) did you assume during your rigorous theory adjudication? <BR/><BR/>Providing the details (the actual arguments that, in your judgment, refuted theism) might be helpful, since none of the other testimonies on DC have ever done so.Charliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16241851773339800938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41953896928614795252008-08-11T00:25:00.000-04:002008-08-11T00:25:00.000-04:00Cowardly to pretend for the spouse and family? I ...Cowardly to pretend for the spouse and family? I would not go that far. It could be respectful. Those that truly believe and have not experienced doubt then do truly belive that you are damned to eternal hell. To hide ones atheism from a spouse with that sort of belief is not cowardly but a sacrifice our of love and respect. It is not 'honest' but then pure honesty is not always the good or right thing. <BR/>And there are two reasons for the terrible treatment new atheists get from their christian friends. One is that they think you must be somehow recruited or tricked or fooled by satan and they do not want to get too close to you in case. if he could get to you, they might be next. Those who have no doubts fall into that category. They have to explain your rejection of it somehow, and to blame it on evil or the devil helps them understand it. <BR/>For those who have doubts, you are dangerous as well, because you prove that the doubts that they try so hard to repress and explain away and ignore might just be, well, true, and they so want the happy warm story to be true, especially the part about getting to see dead relatives again in the afterlife, that they just do not want the doubts to be important. So they must get away from you before you learn about their doubts or they overhear you say something that might crack the cracks in thier faith open even wider. It is difficult to be compassionate to those people, but we DO cause them fear and pain with out atheism, and it is not cowardly sometimes to just let it alone, but compassionate.goprairiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532311590000341237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-60169741270569763032008-08-10T12:08:00.000-04:002008-08-10T12:08:00.000-04:00Wow, all I can say is wow, that was an incredible ...Wow, all I can say is wow, that was an incredible deconversion story <B>touchstone</B>!<BR/><BR/>Although my story isn't identical (I am not married and have no kids), there were many parallels. When I decided to leave the church I essentially did the same thing - the "first principles approach". I set out to decide what I knew for sure and to analyze each belief. Of course, you won't be surprised to hear that this process was the end of faith. I now believe it would be for anyone who approached the process in a truly open-minded fashion and has reasonable intellect and analytical skills.<BR/><BR/>I too have watched most of my christian friends awkwardly back away in some form or other, but I don't care as their friendship is worth nothing to me now. <BR/><BR/>Not having a wife and children meant that I was freer to experience the joy devoid of fear of losing those I love (I was the only christian in my family). <BR/><BR/>I look forward to reading more of your posts on Debunking Christianity.<BR/><BR/>Thanks so much for sharing your story.Glenn Kachmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11271522925669315573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14867104600068479052008-08-09T08:31:00.000-04:002008-08-09T08:31:00.000-04:00TS,I'm glad that you found others, both Christian ...TS,<BR/><BR/>I'm glad that you found others, both Christian and non-Christian for support! I apologize if I read more darkness in your words than was actually there. So often we here about recent de-converts who are treated poorly, even by family members, that Ive come to expect that to enter into these stories. But it is great that you ARE finding those who are willing to talk with you about your discoveries.<BR/><BR/>Be sure to keep us posted on how things are going and the new ideas you come across!<BR/><BR/>RARotten Arsenalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17121549625443719860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-70720375410190018022008-08-08T15:05:00.000-04:002008-08-08T15:05:00.000-04:00Thanks Touchstone,As a former evangelical (fundame...Thanks Touchstone,<BR/><BR/>As a former evangelical (fundamentalist) Christian with a <B>very</B> similar personal story, I had to chuckle at your wonderful observation in noting the plain common sense of believing in the felt board Jesus when hellfire threatens...I was there too...I too, am happily married to a believer who has been struggling to come to terms with this new man who still loves her but no longer shares her faith. (We too, home-schooled our kids etc...)<BR/><BR/>You have done an excellent job of articulating this difficult & sometimes painful transformation. It may be a poor trade, (I don't really think so) but we are part of a "fellowship" of ex-believers belatedly discovering this new world together.<BR/><BR/>It's too bad we can't sit down with a beer or a coffee & trade a few stories...<BR/><BR/>Thanks for a great post.<BR/><BR/>-evaneheffahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06453866415590607675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-70043345926690126822008-08-08T14:42:00.000-04:002008-08-08T14:42:00.000-04:00Ty, Yes.Touchstone, I agree completely that religi...Ty, <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/02/my-deconversion.html" REL="nofollow">Yes.</A><BR/><BR/>Touchstone, I agree completely that religion is a natural phenomenon that needs to be understood on those terms. I think Dan Dennett has done a good job at starting this with <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Spell-Religion-Natural-Phenomenon/dp/067003472X" REL="nofollow">Breaking the Spell</A>.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71839209916520671862008-08-08T14:20:00.000-04:002008-08-08T14:20:00.000-04:00Evan,I hadn't gotten around to reading Dawkins' Th...Evan,<BR/><BR/>I hadn't gotten around to reading Dawkins' <I>The God Delusion</I> until long after I'd rejected my faith, but I was intrigued by his meme hypothesis, the idea that religion is form of "virus of the mind". It resonated with my experience - transmission, replication, insulation from analysis and attack, etc. <BR/><BR/>That doesn't excuse my prolonged indulge of the meme, but I think it might help explain it. More than ever, Christianity specifically and religion generally are not hard questions for the atheist to explain as problems, but matters of inevitability given the psychological and cognitive development of man. If God does not exist, and man has evolved in the way we understand he has, religions like we see are fairly predicted and expected phenomena.<BR/><BR/>-TSTouchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12008636122010033472008-08-08T14:15:00.000-04:002008-08-08T14:15:00.000-04:00Evan,Have you ever typed up your story?TyEvan,<BR/><BR/>Have you ever typed up your story?<BR/><BR/>TyTyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02295088725527931668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15511283533864256082008-08-08T14:13:00.000-04:002008-08-08T14:13:00.000-04:00rotten,Thanks for the comments. I fear from readin...rotten,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comments. I fear from reading you that my post made things sound more bleak, socially, then they really are. A departure like this tends to tease out what people, and your relationships with them, are really made of, and indeed, in some case, my rejection of Christianity has brought out a very dark view of some people I'm otherwise inclined to think highly of. <BR/><BR/>But for all of those chagrins, there have been many Christians who have reacted with grace and kindness. Not agreeing with me, of course, but maintaining a stance of good well and affection, if a bit worried on my eternal behalf.<BR/><BR/>More than one Christian friend has been surprised to hear that "Do unto others..." remained a fundamental principle for me. He thinks it's a concept stolen from Christianity, rather than one Christianity riffed on itself. Is there a more fundamental ethical principle so easily derived by pure reasoning?<BR/><BR/>-TSTouchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27495059466052953822008-08-08T13:55:00.000-04:002008-08-08T13:55:00.000-04:00Welcome Touchstone. I think your story is compelli...Welcome Touchstone. I think your story is compelling as well because you lay bare the social networking that perpetuates the myth and how it propagates through the generations.<BR/><BR/>Thanks.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-53799291038372812992008-08-08T12:03:00.000-04:002008-08-08T12:03:00.000-04:00Hi Touchstone!Thank you for sharing your story. Yo...Hi Touchstone!<BR/><BR/>Thank you for sharing your story. Yours is the exact opposite of mine (I've always felt I was a "natural" atheist at birth and then spent 25+ years rejecting what people told me to believe until I finally admitted to myself I was atheist). While I can really only imagine the anguish you've gone through during this process, I can completely relate to that sense of relief (I still remember that exact moment I gave in) as well as that fear of how friends and family will react.<BR/><BR/>If it helps any, only one memebr of my family knows (or has admitted that they know) of my atheism. It's my cousin, a Baptist minister in Kentucky. We talked about it briefly over email a few weeks ago and I was very surprised at how "okay" he was with it. Despite his deep faith, he could understand my position and he never tried to push Christianity on me. I have to say that I found it refreshing and reaffirmed to me that not all Christians are impossible to deal with.<BR/><BR/>So far, I've had very few adverse reactions from people when discussing my non-beliefs. Some guys on the soccer team I play on who are mostley evangelical seem to be a little more distant to me now, but they don't try to convert or save me. I am in the process of cutting ties with one of my best friends of nearly 20 years, but this is really more to do with the fact we've drifted apart. The final nail, though, was after my mother's death in June (Mom was an ordained minister as well... she knew I was at least agnostic), this "good" friend of mine gave little support and then his loony wife left me a message on myspace saying how sorry they were and then began telling me all about how much she loves Jesus and how she believes there is more evidence for Jesus than there is for George Washington being our first President (which my Baptists cousin thought was absurd). <BR/><BR/>At any rate, my point is that you might be surprised at people's reactions. Like the two gentlemen who are "closeted" but still active in church life, there are atheists everywhere and many are like you and me who are somewhat fearful of letting the world know that you just don't buy in to this stuff anymore. And there are even believers who won't judge you... because some of them realize that they can only know their own thoughts and can't know what it is that you think and feel. <BR/><BR/>The best advice I can give any atheist (new or old) is to "treat others as you want to be treated." While the Christians have stolen this worldly philosophy and claimed it as their own, it's still a good plan to live by. Theists can claim that without God there is no morality, but what they don't get is that many of them don't do bad things out of fear of punishment. I don't do bad things because I don't see the point of needless harm.<BR/><BR/>Touchstone, just find some others who share your beliefs (or non-beliefs) and don't let yourself go mad. You're well on you way to a more peaceful life that you can enjoy instead of fretting over some confusing, illogical deity and the crazy rules the followers push on us.Rotten Arsenalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17121549625443719860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87362322212477356422008-08-08T11:47:00.000-04:002008-08-08T11:47:00.000-04:00oli said: i wonder if this is a deliberately const...oli said: <I>i wonder if this is a deliberately constructed thing by christian churches.</I><BR/><BR/>"Disfellowshipping" (which is more generally called "shunning" in comparative religion) to create a closed religious culture is certainly intentional disincentive to deconversion, and has roots deep in Christianity's Jewish heritage where it was highly regulated and strictly enforced (look up <I>cherem</I>). Even today hardcore Orthodox Jews will symbolically mourn their children who stray too far, such as by marrying a Gentile. It's a standard tool for forcing a conservation of the cultural identity of a group, especially when that group is in the midst of a larger, radically different group.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41074381436905266662008-08-08T11:04:00.000-04:002008-08-08T11:04:00.000-04:00Thanks for your wonderful post, Touchstone :)Thanks for your wonderful post, Touchstone :)ptethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12364942327419465937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29264174427529103742008-08-08T10:42:00.000-04:002008-08-08T10:42:00.000-04:00Touchstone,You finished your reply with, "Ask me h...Touchstone,<BR/><BR/>You finished your reply with, "Ask me how I know," in reference to religious beliefs being ingrained into one's very identity. I agree, but how do you know? ;)<BR/><BR/>TyTyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02295088725527931668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62679916938026993962008-08-08T10:40:00.000-04:002008-08-08T10:40:00.000-04:00As a home schooling atheist let me say that it's g...As a home schooling atheist let me say that it's good to see you here. I found your story to be very interesting and easy to relate to.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65874041705752605542008-08-08T10:28:00.000-04:002008-08-08T10:28:00.000-04:00kathy,Thanks for the comments. Carpe diem!oli,I th...kathy,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comments. <I>Carpe diem</I>!<BR/><BR/>oli,<BR/><BR/>I think the term that has emerged from the discussion of the issue you raise is "Christian Ghetto". Unlike more extreme organizations that Christians would call "cults", I don't think there's a conscious effort to isolate, so much as there is the goal of creating a "righteous culture" inside a profane one. You have Chrisian radio stations, Christian bookstores, Christian schools, Christian homeschooling materials, Christian video games, Christian clothes, etc. I'm amazed at how self-contained and self-sufficient the ghetto is. <BR/><BR/>But I don't identify an urge to eliminate contact with the wider world. As you know, evangelicals have a mission to evangelize, to preach the Gospel, to be a "light unto the world". The Christian culture is developed as a kind of nourishing support system for faith and zeal (and righteous living) that serves as a base for evangelizing.<BR/><BR/>That said, though, articulated, thoughtful unbelief is a big problem when it occurs "inside the ghetto". There's a very practical rationale behind Paul's advice for dealing with apostate's and unbelievers.<BR/><BR/>Ty,<BR/><BR/>Once you've "trained up a child", in the ghetto vernacular, to the age of reason with God, cosmic sin, heaven and hell as axiomatic, it's very difficult to undo. Impressed at the earliest points, it becomes something more than just basic belief, and something like a part of one's identity. Ask me how I know. <BR/><BR/>-TSTouchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-56619973470390920552008-08-08T09:44:00.000-04:002008-08-08T09:44:00.000-04:00kj,Thanks for the feedback. As I mentioned, I *tot...kj,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the feedback. As I mentioned, I *totally* understand the risks run in your marriage by this kind of development. One of the effects of my "coming out" has been a number of emails and private conversations from other men and women in the same predicament. For the reasons you know all too well, there a lot of people stuck in very difficult situations that pit their loving relationships against their (new) worldview.<BR/><BR/>The issue of raising and training the kids is a difficult, long term one. I have my oldest who's driving, and will be leaving the house soon, on one end -- he's his own man, now, for the most part, and we talk about this, but it's not really "training" at that point. On the other, I have twin sons still in diapers, and they are very much an opportunity to make some structural changes in how we raise them.<BR/><BR/>-TSTouchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.com