tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post3466260968127290123..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: My Opening Statement With Dinesh D'Souza, by John LoftusUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81968211357843065522010-02-27T12:46:49.888-05:002010-02-27T12:46:49.888-05:00Well, Life after death. Hmm. Why are you even ente...Well, Life after death. Hmm. Why are you even entertaining this idea? There is no way you can argue against this using logic and reason. This idea is devoid of any logic or reason. It is born from the imagination. That is where it lives.<br /><br />The initial concept comes from the belief in God. So if you want to debunk this concept you have to debunk God. But how do you debunk God if this belief is also devoid of logic and reason? Anything based on faith must, by it's very nature, have no proof. Which means you cannot have hard evidence for any religion based on faith. Ever. <br /><br />You cannot prove life after death. It is impossible. I have not read this guys book, but I don't have to read it. Just like I don't have to read a book that claims there are lizard people fighting beneath the Earth. If you are religious you are delusional. Look up delusion and you will recognize the symptoms. This book is written by a believer which means it is born from delusion. Why would you give it even a moment of your time and energy. All religions must be debunked from the beginning. Trying to disprove God because bad things happen is never going to convince anyone. These people are crazy. They do not work from a place of common sense. Our Justice system is flawed to be sure and it is supposed to work based on hard evidence. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. Peoples lives depend on it. Yet, these idiots will believe based on no evidence, but then embrace the principles of our justice system when it suits them and abandon the ideas when it does not. <br /><br />Ask them who wrote The Old Testament? <br />We all know the creation account is flawed but still the faithful come up with excuses for their all-powerful creator and how they can reconcile his shortcomings. Ask them any of the following questions and they will not have an intelligent answer.<br />Why pray if God is All-knowing?<br />In the Garden of Eden there was the Tree of Knowledge(the knowledge of good and evil). Well, I know where the knowledge of good came from, but how could evil have existed before the fall of man? Did God create it?<br />Christians say that God likes to test us, but why test for something you already know the outcome to?<br />Why does an All-powerful God need servants or messengers.<br />How did Satan fall? If heaven is perfect and Satan was greedy, and envious does that mean that there is greed and petty jealousy in heaven?<br /><br />These are simple questions based on their description of God's attributes. They deserve simple answers, but you will never get any. <br /><br />What these morons fail to understand is why people like us are so opposed to their stupid beliefs. They forget the horrible history of Christianity and Catholicism. They forget how many innocent people died for nothing. They just keep saying that those people that caused all that suffering were bad Christians. They weren't bad Christians they were acting like God. They forget that they're all-powerful, omnibenevolent creator acts exactly the same way. Think about it. God makes man. He gets disappointed in his creation. Now he has an infinite number of ways he could deal with this situation. He could educate his creation. He could appear to each and every one of us as a burning bush and read us the riot act. He could do a number of things that are rehabilitative in nature, but what does he do instead? What is the choice that this all-merciful, all-powerful and loving God decides to make. He destroys every living thing on the planet except Noah and a bunch of animals he could fit on a boat. <br /><br />This is what they believe. And you want to reason with these idiots? Please!! Save yourself the trouble. Science is slowly going to destroy religion. They are going to choke on their own faith. It is the only way they will understand. It's not like we haven't tried. I suspect there will be responses saying that I am mean or angry , but predictable as they are they will never do the one thing that their faith has been trying to teach them.....................why? Because even God couldn't do it the first time.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03912183850150700598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15724527086452681092010-02-22T00:24:02.639-05:002010-02-22T00:24:02.639-05:00Only fools claim that He has justification for tha...Only fools claim that He has justification for that! The His ways argument blasphemes reason and-humanity. That is an argument from ignorance and quite stupid.<br /> Inquiring LynnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-20481016764000870772010-02-21T17:44:45.184-05:002010-02-21T17:44:45.184-05:00"If God exists then the 2004 Indonesian tsuna..."If God exists then the 2004 Indonesian tsunami that killed a quarter of a million people should never have occurred."<br /><br />And exactly what leads you to believe God did not have a morally sufficient reason for allowing this?<br /><br /><br />I can't take the rest of your article seriously after reading that.Brandon James Lashmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09763690418277084281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-30133265396000677442010-02-20T00:17:43.401-05:002010-02-20T00:17:43.401-05:00Harvey writes: "Disagreement among Christians...Harvey writes: "Disagreement among Christians on Christian doctrine DOES NOT cancel the TRUTH of Christianity out!!!"<br /><br />First of all: Harvey, you seem angry. Have a glass of wine and chill.<br /><br />While disagreement among Christians may not necessarily indicate whether objective truth exists, the problem is that the so-called objective truth (in terms of theological or moral doctrine) is not ascertainable, even to Christians.<br /><br />I've been arguing with Christians on another blog over whether sticking a sword into an infant is ALWAYS a moral evil. They can't even say because the Bible suggests that "herem" (genocide) is morally permissible. What are the circumstances? Who knows. They can't say.<br /><br />What is murder? The unnecessary taking of human life. Yet, God commands it on numerous occasions. Rape? (The taking of a woman against her will for the purposes of sex.) Same thing. <br /><br />The Bible is incoherent when it comes to specifying objective truth or morality.Rob Zechmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05369463377497705313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86220622285278132822010-02-12T14:47:00.388-05:002010-02-12T14:47:00.388-05:00Jonathon said: "At least you can explain why ...Jonathon said: <i>"At least you can explain why I am wrong."</i><br /><br />Jon, I have only been discussing one thing with you - your use of the analogy of people who have mental illnesses requiring meds as a comparison with your view of christians. I pointed out your statement was untrue, insensitive to people who already felt stigmatised and contrary to evidence. You tried to justify your use of this comparison. If you cannot understand or agree, I have nothing more to say - I don't wish to argue about something that is off-topic. So that's really the end of it, isn't it? best wishes.unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57559365671212203622010-02-12T01:54:27.449-05:002010-02-12T01:54:27.449-05:00unkle e
At least you can explain why I am wrong....<b>unkle e</b><br /><br /><br /><b>At least you can explain why I am wrong.</b><br /><br />Without having to be somewhat oblivious what this is, but it is a comment section on a blog so expect it to be at times off the cuff and in your face.<br /><br />oblivious is obvious, my bad.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00715319397553428894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24464222403675938282010-02-11T22:49:34.974-05:002010-02-11T22:49:34.974-05:00john, i've read all of these remarks and it...john, i've read all of these remarks and it's no different when a super bowl or a wrestling match goes on. people side with the team they are inclined to side with. I'm gonna wait for a transcription or a cleaner audio copy of the debate, but from what I know so far, you held your own... You rock manjaydeecrawsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09886784472929372494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-58260555782764856862010-02-11T21:48:43.084-05:002010-02-11T21:48:43.084-05:00So Jon, you chose to defend the undefendable rathe...So Jon, you chose to defend the undefendable rather than admit to being inaccurate and insensitive. I am sorry you took that course, but in so doing you have shown the nature of your belief better than I ever could have done. I need say no more. Farewell.unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81694835350628438172010-02-11T20:31:39.239-05:002010-02-11T20:31:39.239-05:00unkle e
Sorry, Unkle E, but I am not writing my ...<b>unkle e</b><br /><br /><br />Sorry, Unkle E, but I am not writing my PhD in "Physiology and the intersection of Religion" so excuse me if don't cite my sources. <br /><br />Without having to be somewhat oblivious what this is, but it is a comment section on a blog so expect it to be at times off the cuff and in your face.<br /><br /><b>Lets be a little honest here.</b><br /><br />If were we to examine historical of pre-christian societies what rituals, practices, beliefs, demons, familiars, witches, leprechauns, etc that were still believed after there conversion to Christainity, many of these tradtions were still kept. <br /><br />The merging of traditional religions and Christianity evident in Africa and the Caribbean. Look at the events now in Uganda and Tanzania (albinos) for example of traditional religious faith clash with Christianity. <br /><br />An other paper I would think would be cool but would be <br />"How Christianity changed and was changed by local religious traditions" I am pretty sure someone had approached this subject. <br /><br />Remorse and Meds?<br /><br />I said <b>I just give them their meds and walk way.</b> without any negative or positive connotations, you sir are implying what I didn't say. <br /><br />In the present day do Christians still believe in demons, witches, exorcism, ghosts, angles? Yes. <br /><br />Did Jesus perform counseling or cast out demons? Weren't people historical stigmatized for mental disorders by Christians who were seen as "demon possessed". <br /><br />What was the treatment for Mental illness in medieval Christian Europe, not pretty, eh?<br /><br /><br />Until just recently we have seen a improvement in the conditions and treatment for people with mental illness, because of advances in technology, medicine, and changes in attitude of the public toward mental illness? <br /><br />It had to take over 1900 years to convince people that they were not possessed by devils? Great work on healing, Jesus. <br /><br /><i>unkle e>> In fact studies I have seen show that Christians/religious people have higher levels of mental health than average.</i><br /><br />Ah, compared to what since people of religious faith comprise the majority of people. I am sorry dude, but the billions spend on such therapies are not from the non-religious the religious have issues too. <br /><br />Tallying Mental Illness' Costs<br />http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1738804,00.html<br /><br />Believers' Inferences About God's Beliefs Are Uniquely Egocentric<br /><br />http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091130151321.htm<br /> <br /><br />Toronto Blessing<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blessing<br /><br /><br />Santeria<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santer%C3%ADa<br /><br /><br />FIRST-PERSON: Faith & healing -- Where's the evidence? <br />http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=28460<br /><br />28th DEAD RAISED TODD BENTLEY<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtrpMkcFVDM<br /> <br />Disgraced pastor Michael Guglielmucci a porn addict <br />http://www.theaustralian.com.au/fraud-pastor-a-porn-addict-says-shocked-dad/story-e6frfkx9-1111117284239<br /><br /><br />Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton, Paula White, etc. <br /><br />Sorry for my rambling, but... I have to run.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00715319397553428894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23623621866237674102010-02-11T18:19:37.463-05:002010-02-11T18:19:37.463-05:00I think you all should back off and give John a br...I think you all should back off and give John a break.... His book is the home run man... I couldn't put up with the bad audio on the stream, so i can't grade the debate. But, the opening statement, if not totally exhaustive (how could it be?) is very strong. I'm not saying I'm 100% in agreement with everything John says on the blog or in his book, but I'm on board with most of it. John is a real pro.... And, Dinesh is intelligent too, I would have bought into the apologetics years ago, but now I don't. I side with John for the most part even though at this point, I still categorize myself as an agnostic with an open mind. All of the smart aleck quips you're heaping at John aren't productive guys. it's immature and lame.... but, I respect you for having the right to say what you want... Once the audio is cleaned up, I think we should all take another look at the debate. hopefully it will be transcribedjaydeecrawsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09886784472929372494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83233968850462297692010-02-11T15:41:48.712-05:002010-02-11T15:41:48.712-05:00Uncle e asked, "Have you never skipped throug...Uncle e asked, "Have you never skipped through something on the web you found tedious or irrelevant?" <br /><br />Of course I have. I just don't throw insults at the author without first having read their whole post... until now. I didn't read the rest of your post becuase I just assumed it was the same drivel you wrote earlier.<br /><br /><br />;) Just messing with you. I still think if we are going to enter into a thoughtful discussion or debate, we do ourselves good to give the courtesy of "listening" to what the other has to say even when we disagree.Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09484481246432964371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25400654265761384942010-02-11T15:12:54.865-05:002010-02-11T15:12:54.865-05:00Jonathon,
I have picked up on what was probably a...Jonathon,<br /><br />I have picked up on what was probably a couple of throwaway lines of yours because serious issues are involved. You may not have thought of them (I am happy to give you the benefit of the doubt), so let me explain briefly.<br /><br />You said <i>"I don't have to tell a person who believes in fairies, elves and gnomes that they don't exist. I just give them their meds and walk way. The same goes with the followers of Christ."</i> This is a reprehensible statement for the following reasons:<br /><br />1. It is untrue and misleading. It turns out you don't actually give people meds.<br /><br />2. I know a lot of people who suffer from a mental illness which is stabilised by them taking medication. Many of them experience "voices in their head" but I don't recall their condition leading to any of them believing in "fairies, elves and gnomes" or any other obviously mythical creatures.<br /><br />3. Many of them feel stigmatised by having to rely on medication. (I don't think they should feel that way, but the fact is that they do.) Insensitive remarks like yours only make them feel worse.<br /><br />4. There is no obvious parallel between requiring medication for a mental illness and belief in christianity. In fact studies I have seen show that christians/religious people have higher levels of mental health than average.<br /><br />So I'm hoping this brief exchange may help you to see that your remarks were insensitive, inaccurate, without evidence and better left unsaid. And I'm hoping in the future you will be thoughtful enough to not make the same mistake. Thanks, and best wishes.unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67284393926266571202010-02-11T15:00:04.166-05:002010-02-11T15:00:04.166-05:00Toby wrote: "If I were you I would ask myself...Toby wrote: <i>"If I were you I would ask myself, "Why couldn't I take the two minutes needed to read John's arguments in full before responding on a blog about those comments?""</i><br /><br />Have you never skipped through something on the web you found tedious or irrelevant? Research shows that most people do. As a psychologist, I would hope you would draw the most likely conclusion before you drew deeper, less well-based, conclusions about my thought processes. But then, I know little about psychology.<br /><br />For the record, I did subsequently read it all, and was conformed in my original impression.unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-34098581074059080802010-02-11T13:22:50.253-05:002010-02-11T13:22:50.253-05:00Uncle e wrote,
"Well John, I started reading...Uncle e wrote,<br /><br />"Well John, I started reading your opening statement, but most of what you said in the opening paragraphs about christians and christian belief were not true for me as a christian and my beliefs. So I skipped to the last few, and it was the same. Yet you said it all so confidently."<br /><br />If I were you I would ask myself, "Why couldn't I take the two minutes needed to read John's arguments in full before responding on a blog about those comments?" This makes me wonder what level scrutiny you are even willing to offer your own beliefs. As a psychologist, I know that we all believe silly things, which is why I believe we have to be willing to at least listen and analyse first before making judgements. Just a thought.Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09484481246432964371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54913820061174065242010-02-11T07:39:02.666-05:002010-02-11T07:39:02.666-05:00@unkle e
metaphor
I listen to what they say, l...@unkle e <br /><br />metaphor <br /><br />I listen to what they say, listen to their explanation, they are happy they told me their message, I give their moment and I walk way. <br /><br />On the other hand Christian's never believed, in witches, ghosts, angles, demons, etc?Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00715319397553428894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24900733263513761932010-02-11T06:45:57.965-05:002010-02-11T06:45:57.965-05:00A metaphor for what? Or was it just a derogatory c...A metaphor for what? Or was it just a derogatory comment that means nothing?unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-35480804987143255652010-02-11T05:47:08.059-05:002010-02-11T05:47:08.059-05:00To unkle e
Correct, its a metaphor.<b>To unkle e</b><br /><br />Correct, its a metaphor.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00715319397553428894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-53331042206284394532010-02-11T05:42:08.218-05:002010-02-11T05:42:08.218-05:00Jonathon:
All I was asking about was your comment...Jonathon:<br /><br />All I was asking about was your comments about "meds". Do I take it that they were not meant to be taken literally?unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13836991575477016172010-02-11T01:43:04.112-05:002010-02-11T01:43:04.112-05:00unkle e said...
Do you really give people meds for...<b>unkle e said...<br />Do you really give people meds for those things Jonathon? In what circumstances?</b><br /><br /><br />I give them the satisfaction in revealing their beliefs to me without argument or debate. They in turn get to vent out. I politely nod and go about my business. <br /><br />Christians have a wide range of beliefs demons, devils, witches, leprechauns, etc. Or they didn't? <br /><br />Regarding Jesus<br /><br /><b>*</b>Walking on Water<br /><b>*</b>Wine to water<br /><b>*</b>Healing<br /><b>*</b>Demonic possession<br /><b>*</b>Virgin birth<br /><b>*</b>God is your dad<br /><b>*</b>Reserection<br />Why are there still Jews<br /><br />This come to mind. <br /><br /><br />Great video <br /><br />What Would Jesus NOT Do?<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE<br /><br /><br />Is this what you were looking for?Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00715319397553428894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-33870473615587360332010-02-11T01:40:47.901-05:002010-02-11T01:40:47.901-05:00Clare, I completely agree with your assessment. We...Clare, I completely agree with your assessment. Well said.Joshua Junghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15279299202657149978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63739562584120058522010-02-11T01:27:28.530-05:002010-02-11T01:27:28.530-05:00"After all, his speech is carefully prepared,..."After all, his speech is carefully prepared, memorised and rehearsed beforehand."<br /><br />No it wasn't. Not at all. In the car Dinesh mentioned that he didn't even prepare an opening statement but was planning on going with the flow.<br /><br />However, I think his individual arguments are "memorized" in the same way we memorize quips or short stories.<br /><br />"Joshua, I wouldn't expect that Dinesh would change his stance after a discussion with you in the car."<br /><br />I'm not that stupid. I'm simply pointing out that his attitude in the car was one of openness but I couldn't understand the somewhat authoritative air he had in the debate. It almost made me sick... he did give me a short nod with a tiny comment he made about "if it even makes any sense to use the word 'begin'" - that was from our discussion in the car, but I don't think it went any further than that.<br /><br />Oh, and I was one of the two people to raise my hand when Dinesh asked his question :)<br /><br />Anyway, all that said I had a much better time discussing things with Dinesh in the car. I think he thought I was a Christian for the first half of the trip because he kept answering my questions by saying things about the "new atheists" and even as if I would just agree they were nuts. My friend Brandt who was with me said he noticed the same thing. I still don't know if he knew we were both atheists. It was a long story about how we ended up driving him - had to do with the massive snow storm in Chicago this weekend. Anyway.Joshua Junghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15279299202657149978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22903123915567364552010-02-10T22:25:56.756-05:002010-02-10T22:25:56.756-05:00Jonathon said: "I don't have to tell a pe...Jonathon said: <i>"I don't have to tell a person who believes in fairies, elves and gnomes that they don't exist. I just give them their meds and walk way. The same goes with the followers of Christ. "</i><br /><br />Do you really give people meds for those things Jonathon? In what circumstances?<br /><br />And what "same" goes for followers of Jesus?<br /><br />I'd be interested to know what is the reality behind these statements.unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-66889088892908083102010-02-10T20:58:37.922-05:002010-02-10T20:58:37.922-05:00"He needs to respect however a person cannot ..."He needs to respect however a person cannot be forced or coerced in the same or any other religous beliefs."<br /><br />I'm pretty sure he respects that constitutional right. The problem comes when people say "The Christian God is impossible" or assertions which present a strawman of systematic theology which try to point to contradiction and fail to identify the complication.<br /><br />No one (well.....) is saying you can't choose whether to believe in the God of Abraham. From a mature Christian perspective...it HAS TO BE a "choice." You can't force anyone to love God. This would be foolish to attempt to try and force someone to "choose" to love the Creator. <br />People love Jesus because they agree with Him. You have to be able to disagree in order to agree.<br /><br />No one can force Christianity on someone else...because it would not be geniune unless it is a personal relationship where you agree with your Savior.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89009691655453197472010-02-10T20:58:23.974-05:002010-02-10T20:58:23.974-05:00"He needs to respect however a person cannot ..."He needs to respect however a person cannot be forced or coerced in the same or any other religous beliefs."<br /><br />I'm pretty sure he respects that constitutional right. The problem comes when people say "The Christian God is impossible" or assertions which present a strawman of systematic theology which try to point to contradiction and fail to identify the complication.<br /><br />No one (well.....) is saying you can't choose whether to believe in the God of Abraham. From a mature Christian perspective...it HAS TO BE a "choice." You can't force anyone to love God. This would be foolish to attempt to try and force someone to "choose" to love the Creator. <br />People love Jesus because they agree with Him. You have to be able to disagree in order to agree.<br /><br />No one can force Christianity on someone else...because it would not be geniune unless it is a personal relationship where you agree with your Savior.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19996228676179579312010-02-10T20:24:36.175-05:002010-02-10T20:24:36.175-05:00Eldnar,
I don't know how to message you on her...Eldnar,<br />I don't know how to message you on here, but this isn't just about debate or how you think John "did."<br />If you truly pray for John and seek restoration for him rather than just debate... I think it is more constructive to deal with the specifics of his argument. There are many people who fall into atheism and God is faithful to bring them out once they get their questions answered.<br /><br />Personally, I believe in answering questions and showing how the assertions themselves are utterly ridiculous when dissected at their assumptions, rather than looking at presentation and performance.<br /><br />For me...attacking presentation and performance can give the appearance of insecurity rather than total assurance of personal faith - or knowledge of our Creator.<br /><br />MichaelBreckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.com