tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post3331301359813837916..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Slavery? NO WAY...NONE!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4632280967996594722007-05-08T16:48:00.000-04:002007-05-08T16:48:00.000-04:00Hey anon,I'm glad to hear that your friend isn't s...Hey anon,<BR/><BR/>I'm glad to hear that your friend isn't suicidal. While not all secular humanists are the same neither do I think you are galloping stupidity (whatever that means).<BR/>Keep up the good work sweety.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86692131034008495442007-05-08T14:55:00.000-04:002007-05-08T14:55:00.000-04:00Well, maybe we can have a marshmallow roast togeth...Well, maybe we can have a marshmallow roast together, Jug!<BR/><BR/>1035Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72655501656056331442007-05-08T14:51:00.000-04:002007-05-08T14:51:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-82362169310152838122007-05-08T14:31:00.000-04:002007-05-08T14:31:00.000-04:00Thank you, whoever did that last delete. I'm not ...Thank you, whoever did that last delete. I'm not one to advocate censorship but also, one should have the freedom to decide what belongs and what doesn't without pressure or fear of reproach.<BR/><BR/>I apologize for provoking any animosity with my comments. Juggalo - no grudge against you.<BR/><BR/>I know that nonbelievers have human hearts that desire what is life giving like anyone else and good - I just get concerned that the weight of the world will fall on those like you guys.<BR/><BR/>anon 1035Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88249593409427437272007-05-08T11:47:00.000-04:002007-05-08T11:47:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65446030514329226632007-05-07T20:23:00.000-04:002007-05-07T20:23:00.000-04:00Prup, I am galloping studpidity anon - it's me - 1...Prup, I am galloping studpidity anon - it's me - 1035.<BR/><BR/>Prup, humans don't make a good god for humanity - we just don't - we just end up beating each other up. If we all agree to erase God, then what remains is well --- you see what I mean. So, it matters not if Juggalo is secular humanist or not - this is a human being that will no doubt offend and hurt other human beings. So who is the God Who will come and do clean-up on Aisle 13????<BR/><BR/>I don't know about you, but I need a place to take hard feelings to and Y'shua already said it was okay to eat His body and drink His blood so we wouldn't end up devouring each other - we can't hurt Him if we aren't hurting ourselves and each other. <BR/><BR/>Now I personally do not take offense at being called galloping stupidity (I thought it a rather creative way to express yourself) especially when I understand your scolding to mean that you would never hurt my feelings in the way that Juggalo did and I appreciate that, Prup! I got your drift this time! That doesn't usually happen, does it? <BR/><BR/>Anon 1035<BR/><BR/>P.S. Did I tell you that the evening after our talk about slavery that I went to see a play - I think it was called "An American Girl - Addy's Story". <BR/>You may want to know that I was in tears - the best line ever was when Addy's mom said, "Don't hate the white people - there won't be any room for love in your heart!"<BR/><BR/>That was the best!<BR/><BR/>1035Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-28159997632495676782007-05-07T10:51:00.000-04:002007-05-07T10:51:00.000-04:00Anon of the galloping stupidity (@12:29): Neither...Anon of the galloping stupidity (@12:29): Neither you nor I know who 'Juggalo' is, or what his religious view is. If you want to use this anonymous troll as Exhibit A for secular humanism, I'm sure you won't mind if we use the ravings of the Phelps Family Cult, the neo-Nazism of the 'Christian Identity' movement, and the 'Kludds' of the Ku Klux Klan as exhibits for Christianity. (You wouldn't mind, but we would, because we aren't that stupid.)Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37965010004298421082007-05-07T00:29:00.000-04:002007-05-07T00:29:00.000-04:00Juggalo - Exhibit A for secular humanism - I rest ...Juggalo - Exhibit A for secular humanism - I rest my case....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-45530866039302318232007-05-06T19:47:00.000-04:002007-05-06T19:47:00.000-04:00Damn. I wish she would have killed herselfDamn. I wish she would have killed herselfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-79391644194519649532007-05-04T20:45:00.000-04:002007-05-04T20:45:00.000-04:00Prup, sorry! Before you say, "don't write anymore ...Prup, sorry! Before you say, "don't write anymore about slavery" I think I may have realized what you are asking - about morality/condoning/slavery.<BR/><BR/>I have given this some thought some time ago and almost forgot about it but I concluded in my heart that lives (souls) are designed for bonding. If I am not bonded to God (a free spirit), then I am bonded to something else. I am bonded to serve God but not in a way that one would visualize a human mistreating another human. <BR/><BR/>Prup, it is what it is. This is what I have to offer. You are under no obligation to accept it of course, but I hope to convey something here that is different than your understanding of God. That is really what I'm trying to do so I guess it makes sense that we don't agree.<BR/><BR/>Okay, Prup, I have to go now to meet some friends - I wish I could agree with you - that is how I used to show love to people, but I never will and God is not mean or a slave driver.<BR/><BR/>Bye for now!<BR/><BR/>Anon 1035<BR/><BR/>PS - Good news! I misunderstood about my friend - she is NOT suicidal! I'm very glad!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90811863102117892242007-05-04T20:29:00.000-04:002007-05-04T20:29:00.000-04:00Prup, that's okay - you can keep at me - I don't k...Prup, that's okay - you can keep at me - I don't know if you've noticed, but I do miss the point oftentimes so I really appreciate your patience. <BR/><BR/>Prup, the way I understand it and have experienced,Jesus was trying to set people free from legalism - since I'm almost 100% certain that you already are aware of this, I guess I have to concede that I disagree that the overt form of slavery is viewed as the ultimate evil - I just don't agree with you is all.<BR/><BR/>BTW, since I am in the habit of complying with people and circumstances rather than faith, I did try and meditate on what you said. I certainly could not focus on it though - instead, I realized that you had posted some very personal and compelling information on previous posts and there was not even one word of encouragement or validation from 1035 - I totally deserve being called insensitive and/or uncaring although I suspect you probably didn't expect any words of kindness, but still I don't blame you for perceiving me in such a way. <BR/><BR/>Prup, if you are tempted to exercise an expression of frustration, I promise I won't write anymore about slavery, okay? I still desire to soften hearts, not antagonize.<BR/><BR/>Anon 1035Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-79055994985926134722007-05-04T20:17:00.000-04:002007-05-04T20:17:00.000-04:00Live-n-grace:Of course I hope you read my comments...Live-n-grace:<BR/>Of course I hope you read my comments to Anonymous 1035, but I wish to appeal to you differently. I want you to <B>think</B>. I want you, for just a minute, to strip off the scriptural armor you wrap yourself in to protect yourself from the world, and to stand naked before this reality.<BR/><BR/>I want you to 'become as a child,' and to remove the verbal constructs you have been given to interpret the world, and just to look as a child can look and frequently to see true evil, and to think about what you have seen.<BR/><BR/>I want you to grasp that the evil in slavery is not that the slaves <B>are</B> mistreated, but that they <B>can be</B> mistreated or not, at the whim of the owner, because they have been stripped of any humanity that is deemed worthy of respect.<BR/><BR/>I want you to see that the existence of slavery, itself, is a mistreatment of human beings no matter how much their comfort is provided for.<BR/><BR/>It is <B>not</B> a matter of treating slaves equally, because if they were equal, they WOULD NOT BE SLAVES. Because a slave, by definition is not equal, is not human, but is <B>property</B>. And THAT is the evil that a moral God would have condemned.Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55463107813123698522007-05-04T20:07:00.000-04:002007-05-04T20:07:00.000-04:001035: I hate to keep at you, as I've said, but yo...1035: I hate to keep at you, as I've said, but you continue to miss my point. (It's funny, but even when I attended poetry readings, when my writing was praised, it usually meant that my meaning -- which is why I wrote what I wrote -- had been missed.)<BR/><BR/>I am not trying to get you to 'feel sorry' for someone in <B>physical</B> bondage. I am trying to get you to use your empathy to understand what it feels like to be in <B>legal</B> bondage; so that you can understand how slavery, with its depersonalization, with its treatment of human beings as property, and with its dismissal of any individual factor of the 'subject' except capability to work and -- in some cases -- sexual attractiveness or breeding capability, how this makes slavery the <B><I>ultimate evil</I></B> a human being can commit against another human being. (Yes, worse than murder. You can kill someone and still acknowledge and respect his humanity. You can not enslave someone and do the same.)<BR/>Because it is evil by human against human, it is not in the same category as anorexia, cancer, suicidal tendencies.<BR/>And I am going to try and force you to confront the fact of this evil -- even though it has been mostly confined to the past, because of humanity's developing moral sense -- because I still demand that you or some believer tell me how a God who condoned it, who did not condemn it as the ultimate evil it is can be considered worthy of respect or the author of ultimate morality.<BR/>(Because John and I are walking to the exact same direction by slightly different routes.)Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-76150906685291699312007-05-04T18:12:00.000-04:002007-05-04T18:12:00.000-04:00Prup, I'm not certain, but are you saying that I a...Prup, I'm not certain, but are you saying that I am unempathetic towards the suffering of those who would be in physical bondage? Ouch! Oh well, it's okay - I'm quite certain I must have sounded that way, didn't I? <BR/><BR/>Prup, I came from a family that if one didn't show a total destructive anxiety attack for every story of despair, one would be relegated to the realm of unloving and uncaring villain and relegated as a disloyal traitor! It was as though our hand wringing and despairing was going to actually affect a positive outcome in the world and sometimes I really and honestly had no witness in my heart to despair - I really felt in certain instances that things would be okay. So, from that background, it is a little hurtful if you are perceiving me as superficial and trust me Prup, I would hope to have the courage to intervene if I encountered such a case of slavery. I haven't actually encountered any physical bondage lately, but I do have some faith building in regard to some I know who are suffering from anorexia and also suicidal tendencies. Sometimes I feel so afraid for other people - faith and hope are still in the formative phases for me.<BR/><BR/>Prup, as usual, yours and others here writing is compelling. <BR/><BR/>As always, 1035Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3654331547035705042007-05-04T17:29:00.000-04:002007-05-04T17:29:00.000-04:00One at a time.First Anon 1035: I am sorry to keep ...One at a time.<BR/><BR/>First Anon 1035: I am sorry to keep hammering at you on this, but I have to. I seriously request that you take some time, go into a quiet room, and start thinking about exactly what the condition a slave was put. Imagine that as soon as you leave the room, you will be in that condition. Use every bit of the empathy you have shown here, and put yourself in that position. You are a slave. You are no longer considered a human being, but property. You no longer have any rights, intrinsically. You have no right to complain, whatever treatment you receive. You have no law that you can use to redress your grievances. You cannot move away, or live somewhere else, and if you do, any person can capture you and btring you back. Your situation is something like a prisoner's, but a prisoner has some rights that he can hope he can get enforced. You do not even have that hope. You cannot call an attorney to sue your master, because the law is on his side, the law doesn't recognize you even as a human being.<BR/><BR/>You have no right even to your beliefs. You are forced to attend whatever type of religious service -- if any -- your master chooses. If you get sick, the only thing you can hope for is that you have worked well enough that your master chooses to get a doctor for you, you can't call one for yourself.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you have gone through some celebration of marriage with someone you loved, but trhat very ceremony and that relationship is under your master's control. If he chooses, he can summon your spouse for any sort of sexual service he chooses to require. In fact, whatever you believe, whatever your own moral code, he can demand any sort of sexual service he likes from you.<BR/><BR/>Your children, if you have them? You look at them with sadness, because, for no other reason than they are your children -- you hope they are and not your master's -- they will spend their life in the same position as you are in.<BR/><BR/>Even more, you know that you will not even be able to teach them anything but what the master thinks is suitable for them to learn.<BR/><BR/>And finally, as I said before, that wife, those children, can be separated from you tomorrow, you or they can be sold, or all of you, and if your master can get a better profit by selling you to owner A and your wife to owner B -- three hundred miles away -- and your children to yet another owner in a completely different direction, there is NOTHING you can do to stop him, because he has rights.<BR/><BR/>You have NONE.<BR/><BR/>Think deeply in that quiet room, imagine you are in precisely that condition. Then imagine you see a letter from someone, a good man, yes, who has said precisely what you have said in your previous letter. Once you've used your empathy and put yourself in the mindset of a slave, write what that slave would write in response to the comparisons you've made.Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-48532356025854665602007-05-04T16:50:00.000-04:002007-05-04T16:50:00.000-04:00Yes Prup, the majority of slavery is sin. Why? B...Yes Prup, the majority of slavery is sin. Why? Because they mistreat them, they don't treat them as themselves. Those who treat them as themselves is not a sin. But because much of slavery is involved with mistreatment, we treat slavery as pure evil. Slavery was meant for those without jobs, for those whose who had been captured in war (enemies), ect... But the mistreament of them is a terrible thing, as we all know. What is the definition of slavery? If you have a lot of time on your hands, than try reading this "book":<BR/><BR/>http://docsouth.unc.edu/church/bourne/bourne.html<BR/><BR/>Galatians 3:<BR/><BR/>"28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."<BR/><BR/>All are created equal, and in view of Christ, treat all equal. In my view this doesn't necessarily condone slavery but rather treatment. Those who treated the African Americans badly were wrong and sinful to do so.<BR/><BR/>But I know for a fact that all of us have not treated everyone equally, so we should not be the ones to judge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78944980898681823842007-05-04T10:13:00.000-04:002007-05-04T10:13:00.000-04:00Prup, I'm sad you see my words as diminishing of o...Prup, I'm sad you see my words as diminishing of others' suffering - - I recognize that discussing pain as though it is a far off foreign territory does tend to objectify it - as though discussing others' pain will diminish our own. <BR/>but the truth is, pain is an up close and very real subject for most people, including myself. I have noticed that it does tend to be a habit for some people to elevate their own suffering as though it is some sort of virtue, but in fact, suffering emotionally, mentally or spiritually should not be categorized as metaphorical and diminished either but acknowledged as well.<BR/><BR/>At any rate, Prup, thanks for the exchange!<BR/><BR/>Anon 1035Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-5505098817164093982007-05-04T03:30:00.000-04:002007-05-04T03:30:00.000-04:00Anon 1035: I have to call you on this one. We ar...Anon 1035: I have to call you on this one. We are not discussing slavery in the metaphorical sense you use it. We are discussing the real thing, where people are so robbed of their humanity that they become property of other people, that they can be sold, beaten, killed, their marriages could be ignored and they be separated from their families if the slaveowner could get a better price by selling them separately -- or if he chose to punish them. The law not only would not punish the 'owner' for such actions but would punish the slave were he to try and rebel.<BR/><BR/>Your metaphor not only demeans the seriousness of our feelings and this discussion, much more importanly it trivializes they very real sufferings that those who were slaves were liable to experience -- and if they were, in fact, treated well, they knew this was only because of the humanity of the owner and that should their 'ownership' be transferred they migyht not be so lucky the next time.<BR/><BR/>And, live-n-grace, you have conceded the point that John and the rest of us have been making. If, as you say, "Was slavery a sin? NO." then the supposed God who defines sin has no reason to get respect from any human being, because if anything is a sin, slavery IS.Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-74772944869151687752007-05-03T23:23:00.001-04:002007-05-03T23:23:00.001-04:00I imagine Muslims arguing similarly: "Those infide...I imagine Muslims arguing similarly: <BR/><BR/>"Those infidel Christians in America are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness about Allah and Islam. They reject his prophet and his words revealed in the Koran. See how the promiscuous women walk around without covering their face, and dont't submit to their husband? They even wear makeup and short skirts in their churches, and permit their lawless children to do the same. That's why Katrina happened, why the WTC attack worked, why their economy is in the toilet."exapologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09915579495149582531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91933341948163673082007-05-03T23:23:00.000-04:002007-05-03T23:23:00.000-04:00I imagine Muslims arguing similarly: "Those infide...I imagine Muslims arguing similarly: <BR/><BR/>"Those infidel Christians in America are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness about Allah and Islam. They reject his prophet and his words revealed in the Koran. See how the promiscuous women walk around without covering their face, and dont't submit to their husband? They even wear makeup and short skirts in their churches, and permit their lawless children to do the same. That's why Katrina happened, why the WTC attack worked, why their economy is in the toilet."exapologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09915579495149582531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27914519024403246612007-05-03T18:50:00.000-04:002007-05-03T18:50:00.000-04:00God's biggest threat is always hell if we disobey....God's biggest threat is always hell if we disobey. Christians wouldn't create a law based upon disobedience to God, which is why homosexuality was illegal up until the time that Christian influence waned, and reason prevailed.<BR/><BR/> Yup, that is why all powerful nations have fallen in the past. They believed that they were free from harm, and mainly fell into immorality, and the nation fell apart from the inside out. Homosexuality is clearly wrong in the bible.<BR/><BR/>Jesus condemns 'he who looks at a woman lustfully' in Matthew 5:28. He threatens with hell the man who does not cut off his right hand if it causes him to sin. But he does not condemn slavery.<BR/><BR/>The point was on how detrimental sin can be. <BR/>Was slavery a sin? NO. Was treating slaves wrongfully a sin? Yes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7946121834856165452007-05-03T16:56:00.000-04:002007-05-03T16:56:00.000-04:00Hi Exapologist,My point was not made well, sorry.M...Hi Exapologist,<BR/><BR/>My point was not made well, sorry.<BR/>My point was/is that God is more concerned with the relationship and the heart than behavior. We would agree that behavior is an indicator of what is in the heart, but sometimes we do things impulsively or unwisely and God is not there to hammer us if our attitude is one of contrition. That's what I believe anyway. God would not have the chief divorce his wives but save one, rather because the man already had several he should love them all.<BR/><BR/>This is a quick response...<BR/><BR/>In the book, the chief was looking at leading his tribe or other Christians. I'm not sure if he would be required to step down because his state was pre-existing. I don't know about that. Again, I would say that God is more concerned with the willingness to follow Him out of love rather than blind obedience. This leads into other areas, but for now I'm only sticking to this one.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I have some questions about that passage in Exodus. I agree that to beat a slave is horrible... there are many social issues that come into play but I can't go into that right now. I'll just plant the idea for now that for a society to work well there needs to be order. If there is order that seems to imply that there is authority. If there is authority it seems to follow that there is a way to enforce that authority. What ways would people use to enforce authority and who gets to be the authority?<BR/><BR/>I don't know, it seems very unfair, but so do a lot of other things. Again, I come to man and blame us. Why would a god or God even need to tell us such a thing? If we are enlightened now, what makes us enlightened and where is that enlightenment going to take us?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-21777090039659283402007-05-03T12:33:00.000-04:002007-05-03T12:33:00.000-04:00Slavery is promoted, justified and practiced on di...Slavery is promoted, justified and practiced on different levels (addictive behaviors, mistreatment of one another) until we are set free by the Christ spirit. Slavery to destructive human nature is actually a foundational condition from which we are all offered salvation. It is not a free spirit who vents his hostility towards those who are helpless or unable to defend themselves or viewed as weaker. So who will intervene on behalf of the slavekeeper?? Who will discern his spiritual starvation and weakness? Justice is one thing but God's grace, sightedness and faith are another.<BR/><BR/>Moral and legal codes, at best, can keep anarchy at bay, but fail to bring us out of our natural habit of conditional love.<BR/><BR/>Being set free from fear and the cycle of mistreatment might be referred to as self-actualization, but I think God calls it faith expressing itself in acts of love.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!<BR/><BR/>Anon 1035Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8511738340782081172007-05-03T11:43:00.000-04:002007-05-03T11:43:00.000-04:00Very good points Prup. I'll be thinking about thi...Very good points Prup. I'll be thinking about this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41324342055326870592007-05-03T11:24:00.000-04:002007-05-03T11:24:00.000-04:00Hi OneWave,I don't think I'm following your point ...Hi OneWave,<BR/><BR/>I don't think I'm following your point from the book you read. It appears that, if the story is accurate, God told him to do something that contradicts what he had the NT author write re: having one wife. But in any case, isn't the passage (I can't remember offhand -- is it 1 Timothy?) about elders are pastors in particular, and not "spiritual leaders" in general (say, the "spiritual leader" of a household, i.e., the husband, as most evangelicals say. If so, then what role is there for prayer here? The Bible already tells us: if the tribal chief is a "spiritual leader" in the sense of a pastor or elder, then he should step down from that position. On the other hand, if he's a "spiritual leader" in some other sense, then there is no conflict, and he should obey the biblical injunction to remain married to each of his wives.<BR/><BR/>In any case, back to the business about slavery. Take a look at Exodus 21:20-21. The passage allows a Hebrew to beat their slave to death without punishment ("if he reamain alive for a day or two, he (the owner of the man or woman) shall not be punished, for the slave is his money"). I take it that it's self-evident that this is unjust: it allows this sort of wicked thing, and the slave, if he or she survives the beating, is not compensated for their abuse.<BR/><BR/>Now to address your question, "what would I have God do?": how about changing the law so that beating a slave in this way is prohibited, and if the master beats his slave, the slave is justly compensated. Does this sound like a high bar to you? If so, then I shudder at what you must think about American laws re: slavery and beating people.exapologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09915579495149582531noreply@blogger.com