tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post304956705554698466..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Reality Check: What Must Be the Case if Christianity is True?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-2630861130658930742010-06-08T20:46:56.382-04:002010-06-08T20:46:56.382-04:00Thanks, Hendy.Thanks, Hendy.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17384937843182195492010-06-08T17:53:41.687-04:002010-06-08T17:53:41.687-04:00@Christian
Agreed. This is one reason I have proc...@Christian<br /><br />Agreed. This is one reason I have proceeded in confidence in my recent doubting. If god is compassionate and I live proper values of love and charity, this strikes me as far more valuable to god than any sort of belief. He of all people will know my disposition, mental tendencies, and life experience such that the belief he left is unconvincing.<br /><br />It's interesting to note that Mark, the earliest gospel, had no condemnation of non-belief in it's original ending. Only the added ending which came some good deal later (I forget... late 2nd century?) contain for one even a fleshly appearance and more importantly the condemnation of unbelief (Mk. 16:16):<br /><br /><i>"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."</i><br /><br />This was <i>not</i> in earliest manuscripts.<br /><br />Quite interesting, indeed.<br /><br />@GearHed<br /><br />Just came across a post yesterday sent to me by my dad with interesting thoughts on that very line of thinking! (<a href="http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/06/why-did-god-create-atheists.html" rel="nofollow">LINK</a>)jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-45810061281938340302010-06-08T14:58:22.952-04:002010-06-08T14:58:22.952-04:00Belief isn't effortless; else there wouldn'...Belief isn't effortless; else there wouldn't be such things as "atheists".GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-80810791549220719642010-06-08T14:26:37.598-04:002010-06-08T14:26:37.598-04:00I have a question, I don't know if any christi...I have a question, I don't know if any christians can answer it for me... why in the world is BELIEF so important to God? Believing in something is incredibly easy (especially if you're light on intellect) compared to actually going out and DOING good things. Someone said that God revealing himself would take away our free choice to believe in him or not... well, so what? Believing that something exists doesn't actually DO anything, it's completely useless. Why does this deity consider belief in him the most important thing? Why not good deeds done in his name, if he were truly good? Why would a truly good omni-being, pardon my french, give a shit if people did something as unimportant and effortless as BELIEVE in him?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03707313990405396454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27661456148851506992010-06-07T17:24:24.783-04:002010-06-07T17:24:24.783-04:00Oh, and by the way... When I was still believing I...Oh, and by the way... When I was still believing I set up a round the clock prayer vigil for friends of mine who had a premature baby. The placenta was shutting down and the baby would either die in the womb or need to be delivered at like 24 weeks or so and risk dying outside the womb.<br /><br />They gave the baby as long as possible and then did the emergency c-section.<br /><br />People signed up for prayer slots with a google form I made and prayed around the clock for 3-4 days. The baby did okay at first and then they found that the brain was hemorrhaging and that blood was pooling in the skull. There was nothing they could do and the baby died about a day later. I think he lived about 1.5 days total.<br /><br />When one is a believer, however, the problem is never possibly with the prayer or the lack of response. Instead it shifts the answer. The family now believes in faith that god had a specific purpose for this baby who lived 1.5 days. They don't know what it is, but will find out in heaven. They have been role models for me as parents and are an amazing family.<br /><br />On things like this, however, my beliefs do part ways. I think the natural explanation of simply realizing that certain complications are more or less likely explains things far better than trying to figure out what purpose this child lived 1.5 days for while being supported with needles and other machines as well as the trouble the family went through... as well as why god didn't answer the prayers of so many faithful Catholics praying around the clock for such a pure request.<br /><br />We're talking about a 24 or so week old baby (just over half-term). What 'selfish' motive or 'unrepentant' sin makes sense of not answering that prayer?<br /><br />And what 'free will' was involved? The parents would not have known the difference if god had 'intervened' and the child lived so he couldn't have risked forcing them to accept his life against their wills. The child essentially had no free will so it's hard to see how that could have affected the outcome.<br /><br />Ah. I know. It's supreme divine mystery and god is sooo great in all things. We love him and his mysterious ways and can't wait to find out about them in the beatific vision.jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22441287216063459212010-06-07T17:15:55.430-04:002010-06-07T17:15:55.430-04:00These discussions just get nowhere and are so frus...These discussions just get nowhere and are so frustrating since both sides are going along completely different lines of thought...<br /><br />It is extremely frustrating because the believer's task in evangelization using miracles as evidence is to try to lure out belief by proving that god has all the power claimed of him to do all of the wonderful deeds cited... but that he'll never do them while anyone's watching.<br /><br />Yet the non-believer wants evidence he can 'sink his teeth into' and won't believe based on this tactic.<br /><br />So the non-believer simply stays non-believing and asks for genuine evidence (like a limb regrowing).<br /><br />Then the believer, rather than realize that there's nothing wrong with this request since it's exactly what he says his god can do, cries 'foul' and has to explain why the non-believer is pigheaded, how god 'sees through tests', how faith and relationship is more important than any tangible evidence of his existence... blah blah blah.<br /><br />Why pray for anything if the relationship is the point? Christians should just spend their time in scripture study and meditation rather than intercession.<br /><br />Breckmin, if you pray for something, are you looking for an answer? If so, why would god answer it (since he won't answer things that people expect answers from)? If he will answer it, why wouldn't he answer it if you shared it with all of us and then let us observe the outcome of your prayer repeatedly?jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-21602575052304915142010-06-07T12:42:30.178-04:002010-06-07T12:42:30.178-04:00It is incredibly liberating Ed but, non-falsifiabl...It is incredibly liberating Ed but, non-falsifiable cognitive bias can really make one feel powerful.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6733173101252540242010-06-07T08:22:42.287-04:002010-06-07T08:22:42.287-04:00For myself, it occurs to me that if we atheists an...For myself, it occurs to me that if we atheists and agnostics were to conclusively demonstrate that believing in some sort of deity is optional, it necessitates that everyone who spent years studying the minutiae of religion has wasted their lives doing so.<br /><br />This is most likely the source of the tenacity several current posters here exhibit; they CANNOT retreat from their cherished extremist positions, for to do so would bankrupt their whole value system.<br /><br />It's OK, dudes. If you were to give it all up, the universe wouldn't come crashing down. I hear it's a liberating experience, a breath of fresh air; although I have no direct experience of this having never been emotionally attached to the myth.<br /><br />We understand. But that doesn't make the myth any more convincing or appealing.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89352780106054197662010-06-07T03:09:15.684-04:002010-06-07T03:09:15.684-04:00Breckmin,
I think you gave the answer to my quest...Breckmin,<br /><br />I think you gave the answer to my question here:<br /><br /> <i> “You want to see the difference between the miracles of false religions and the miracles which corroborate born-again Christianity.... yet the Kingdom of God is in the hearts of men.”</i><br /><br />Thank you for being honest and you’d probably be very surprised to learn that I knew this as well as agree (being a “born-again” for a decade lets you in on all these notions).<br /> <br />You’ve basically stated that the difference between the healing attributed to Jesus and the healings attributed to Thor and to shamanistic magic/ ritual to be in the interpretation and mind of the believer.<br /><br />Well, of course that’s true. That’s been my entire point. <br /><br />There’s no difference between <b> what actually happens</b> concerning the answered prayers of Christians and all other religions and superstitions. They are exactly equivalent, as I initially stated. <br /><br />Furthermore - looking at the events in the lives of believers claimed to be touched by a divine hand or magic essence or controlling ritual - they are indistinguishable from stochastic natural events. This is much more parsimonious, logical, and universal explanation.<br /> <br />You’ve explained at length that the psychological and/ or epistemological conditions somehow matter or make a difference, but in reality they do not as I think to have shown with the example. If there is no discernable difference between Thor’s answered prayers and Jesus’, we have no reason to take the Jesus account any more seriously than any other.T. A. Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145624739235262178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-51502104073708923802010-06-06T22:10:00.349-04:002010-06-06T22:10:00.349-04:00Breckmin said,
"...I was once accused of lim...Breckmin said,<br /><br />"...I was once accused of limiting God by logic by saying He was a logical God, but do you see how ridiculous it is to require that God be illogical?"<br /><br />I was the one who "accused" you. And you don't even see where your reply was idiotic?<br /><br />No one EVER said that for god to be subject to logic implies that if he wasn't that he would be REQUIRED to be illogical. That was YOU putting your ill-conceived counter argument into my mouth.<br /><br />If you call God logical,and furthermore say that he CANNOT be illogical, YOU have limited him to logical behavior. Don't try to turn this around on me; I don't believe in god, period, so I don't have a problem with an illogical god since that is a null argument as far as I'm concerned.<br /><br />YOU said God is fact.<br /><br />YOU said God is logical.<br /><br />All I did is point out where YOUR definition of God limits him.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27323957445262687052010-06-06T22:00:52.416-04:002010-06-06T22:00:52.416-04:00Breckmin said,
"...They would recognize the ...Breckmin said,<br /><br />"...They would recognize the nature of both infinite conceptual inner space as well as infinite 3 dimensional existence and its relationship to matter and motion and why we would expect such a Creator to be logically infinite.<br />Clearly, this is a long discussion on "how a Creator of all matter would be expected to be Infinite"<br />I can't over simplify it with infinite mathematics or infinite 3 dimensional existence since it is an accumulative case argument..."<br /><br />Please stop trying to use your abysmally poor knowledge of Physics and Mathemetics to try and lend support to your arguments.<br /><br />It's obvious to anyone who HAS studied mathematics that you haven't. And without a solid background in mathematics, you cannot possibly understand the first thing about physics, chemistry, or even biology.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-36697500880486015432010-06-06T21:52:45.808-04:002010-06-06T21:52:45.808-04:00Breckmin said,
"I stand by the position that...Breckmin said,<br /><br />"I stand by the position that it is the nature of truth, fact and reality to be in and of itself dogmatic and consistent with God's Omniscience."<br /><br />God's omniscience (total knowledge) is utterly incompatible with human free will. You have never satisfatorily addressed this. All you have ever given us in response to this is apologetics and gibberish.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61675199142789765032010-06-06T21:49:23.077-04:002010-06-06T21:49:23.077-04:00Breckmin said,
"The bible exists because of ...Breckmin said,<br /><br />"The bible exists because of Christianity. Christianity does NOT exist because of the "bible.""<br /><br />That's about the most serious indictment of the veracity of Christianity (bordering on fatal) that I've ever heard.<br /><br />This is virtually tantamount to saying that the Bible was writen specifically to prop up the religion.<br /><br />Thanks for articulating our most effective argument to date.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88254293507330191822010-06-06T21:39:30.816-04:002010-06-06T21:39:30.816-04:00Breckmin.
Dont want to go to far off topic but I&...Breckmin.<br /><br />Dont want to go to far off topic but I'll say this.<br />Despite the fact that christianity existed before the bible, christians today go by the bible and nothing but the bible!<br />The bible is their sole source for knowledge about God, and they practice what it tells them to do.<br /><br />Yes it is the bible which tells us we are evil and in need of a savior, then offers us the apparent savior?<br />The bible condemns us for being imperfect beings?<br /><br />You said love requires choice, and the fall of man was inevitable?<br /><br />So if the fall of man was inevitable, then God "choose" out of His love to create us anyway?....wow what love, thanks God.<br /><br />Breckmin, you try to use the 3 dimensional existence and its relation to matter? But, believers like you will quickly point out that the universe is not eternal, that it had to have a beginning......SO....what evidence is there that a creator must be eternal?shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88985328196973440012010-06-06T21:38:58.123-04:002010-06-06T21:38:58.123-04:00"All other religions are performance based......<i>"All other religions are performance based....what you can do to improve yourself/save yourself. Born-again Christianity teaches that there is NOTHING you can do. God has to rescue you from yourself and your own bad decisions."</i><br /><br />First, there are several that are not performance based.<br />There is amida buddhism. Anyone who calls Amida buddha's name, "Namu Amida Butsu," with sincere faith, trust, and devotion, will be granted by Amida an eternal life of happiness in the Pure Land which has been set aside specifically for those who call on Amida.<br /><br />Pureland (amida) buddhism is known as tariki which means 'other power'. Specifically, just what you said about jesus is true of amida. This doctrine states that the individual can not effect their own salvation (jiriki). Salvation can only come from amida buddha. <br /><br />Then there is bhakti yoga, a form of hinduism. Here's some of their writings; <br /><br />Tiru-Mular, a Shaivite poet of the Middle Ages sang: "The ignorant say love and God are different; None know that Love and God are the same. When they know that Love and God are the same; They rest in God's Love." More formal but obscure bhakti texts can state: "The nature of bhakti is absolute love for Him," and "Bhakti is supreme attachment for the Lord." The bhakti poet Nammalvar sang: "My Lord, though endless pains afflict me, I will not cease to look for thy mercy." <br />The devotee hopes to attain salvation simply be worshiping god. <br /><br />Another interesting aspect of hinduism is the doctrine of the avatar. According to this, god has become man not only once, but many times over and over. This is one reason hindus tend not to be overly impressed by christian claimes about jesus. For them, Krishna was 100% god and 100% man...so was rama and a long line of avatars.<br /><br />Christians pick out aspects of christianity that are unique to their religion (or mistakenly believe this) then proclaim this or that aspect is why it is so much better. It is like Buddhists saying christianity is inferior because only buddhism teaches a comprehensive doctrine of karma.<br /><br />To which the christian rightly says; "So what?" It's the same for us with your claims about all the unique tenets of christiainity...so what?<br /><br />Then there's the question of what you mean by performance or saving oneself vs being saved by god. If I 'must' turn from sin and pray to god for forgiveness...then I am still doing something to effect my salvation. Even accepting jesus into my heart is still my action and is really no different than chanting to amida in order to be saved or hoping to be saved by my loving devotion to krishna. To an outsider it looks like different flavors of the same tired ice cream.zenmite AKA Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08696178493758587271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7821429130592887642010-06-06T20:18:12.354-04:002010-06-06T20:18:12.354-04:00"that "even if" this world and this..."that "even if" this world and this universe was the work of a creator, that nothing in this world/universe gives as a clue in regards to that creator!"<br /><br />Breckmin says "unless the clue is spiritual and in the heart of men/women who love such Creator."<br /><br /><br /><br />-The wise man will recognize that there is no clue as to whether there is only one creator as oppossed to a multitude.<br />------------------------------<br /><br />If the Creator is Infinite then it would be illogical to impose multiple creators whose existence would be finite.<br /><br />An Infinite Transcendent Atemporal Creator is One Who does NOT result in infinite regress since such Creator is Uncaused Cause.<br /><br />Multiple creators which would move and travel from place to place are a failed God concept because they are not much bigger than we are.<br /><br />Often our concept of God is far too small and we expect far too little from Him because we don't understand why there is an inevitable byproduct of choice so that love can exist.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16702693999072470772010-06-06T20:10:00.017-04:002010-06-06T20:10:00.017-04:00-They will recognize that nothing in this universe...-They will recognize that nothing in this universe shows us that the creator/creators is all powerful, for even if they had the power to create a world, it does not mean they are all powerful.<br />--------------------------<br /><br />"All powerful" here doesn't address infinite power that is consistent with One's Own Nature. I was once accused of limiting God by logic by saying He was a logical God, but do you see how ridiculous it is to require that God be illogical?<br /><br />I would always specify "all-logically-powerful" and address those things which are consistent with God's Nature and not self-contradictory.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71412680153845796392010-06-06T20:05:36.107-04:002010-06-06T20:05:36.107-04:00-They will recognize that even if there is a creat...-They will recognize that even if there is a creator/creators, there is no evidence of them being eternal.<br />--------------------------<br /><br />They would understand that the Creator is Infinite due to the fact that you would have an infinite regress with finite creators. They would recognize the nature of both infinite conceptual inner space as well as infinite 3 dimensional existence and its relationship to matter and motion and why we would expect such a Creator to be logically infinite.<br />Clearly, this is a long discussion on "how a Creator of all matter would be expected to be Infinite"<br />I can't over simplify it with infinite mathematics or infinite 3 dimensional existence since it is an accumulative case argument...<br />but there have been brilliant men in the past like Leibniz who have understood why an Infinite Creator would be an eternal Creator.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27063083364429869752010-06-06T19:48:07.044-04:002010-06-06T19:48:07.044-04:00- They will recognize that the evil which exists i...- They will recognize that the evil which exists in this world, can not be reconciled to an omnibenevolent creator.<br />----------------------------<br /><br />Or they are NOT wise..and they are BLIND to the reality that Love requires choice and that humankind blew it as far as choice goes (and this was inevitable) and that there is something now wrong with humankind that it keeps choosing evil... and that the evil in this world testifies to the fact that we need a Savior to rescue us from our choices, etc etc.<br /><br />Omnibenevolent is an English word which fails to address that fact that God doesn't love satan nor demons which are judged already.<br />A wise man would recognize the imperfection of these English words and seek to clarify their meaning.<br /><br />The evil that exists in the world is because of both the judgement of the Creator as well as the continued bad choices (disobedience) of those who have the ability to love.<br />You wouldn't even be able to understand and know that God is "good" unless you could contrast it by observing evil...<br />and all disobedience (moral evil) which is not forgiven (paid for by Atonement) will some day be judged perfectly and display God's Holiness for all of eternity.<br /><br />Clearly, there is far more to it than this...and we need to talk about dozens of more specifics.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37013193111517267472010-06-06T19:40:01.139-04:002010-06-06T19:40:01.139-04:00-They will recognize that a church full of people ...-They will recognize that a church full of people praying to an invisible, inaudible, intangible being because a book tells them to is irrational.<br />-------------------------------<br /><br />Yet churches existed long before the bible was even put together through canonization and long before the 1600 years it took before there was a printing press for them to have access to "the bible."<br /><br />The bible exists because of Christianity. Christianity does NOT exist because of the "bible."<br /><br />Your statement is inaccurate because people prayed to God long before there was a "book" that told them to.<br /><br />It was their observation of creation itself and the knowledge of God that was placed into their heart that caused them to NOT be so foolish as to never acknowledge God in their lives.<br /><br />The specifics of a canon are evasive to the spread of the gospel without ever seeing a so called "bible." QEBreckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-76583512465779386092010-06-06T19:34:45.330-04:002010-06-06T19:34:45.330-04:00- They will recognize that the bible unwarrantly a...- They will recognize that the bible unwarrantly accuses us of the disease, and then offers us the cure at the same time.<br /><br />----------------------------<br /><br />The scriptures give us a mirror (the Law) so that we can see our diseased condition (sin), and then offers us SALVATION from the bad decisions (choices) which we make on a day to day basis.<br /><br />You must differentiate between original sin, the sin nature and actual decisions that are cosmically a violation against a Holy God/Creator when talking about the disease.<br /><br />Likewise you must distinguish between the Atonement and obedience when discussing the cure.<br /><br />Unless you clarify, you will present truth incorrectly.Breckminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11688887487612621892010-06-06T19:07:26.243-04:002010-06-06T19:07:26.243-04:00Breck
You keep defeating the doctrine of the in-d...Breck<br /><br />You keep defeating the doctrine of the in-dwelt Holy Spirit as a wise counselor with your special pleading. You are a solipsistic idiot. YouTube clips of man made worship music? What are the sales of that vs. the Beatles catalogue? That is your evidence? Like I said before, your holy spirit is either an idiot or an anxious teenager (or superstitious control belief).Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87342096954672067572010-06-06T18:45:12.487-04:002010-06-06T18:45:12.487-04:00This includes the notion of "sacrifice" ...This includes the notion of "sacrifice" as an appeal for favor.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12218656315535133832010-06-06T18:44:03.375-04:002010-06-06T18:44:03.375-04:00Breckmin.
You speak of wise men and their recogni...Breckmin.<br /><br />You speak of wise men and their recognition.<br /><br />The wise man will recognize, that "even if" this world and this universe was the work of a creator, that nothing in this world/universe gives as a clue in regards to that creator!<br /><br />-The wise man will recognize that there is no clue as to whether there is only one creator as oppossed to a multitude.<br /><br />-They will recognize that nothing in this universe shows us that the creator/creators is all powerful, for even if they had the power to create a world, it does not mean they are all powerful.<br /><br />-They will recognize that even if there is a creator/creators, there is no evidence of them being eternal.<br /><br />- They will recognize that the evil which exists in this world, can not be reconciled to an omnibenevolent creator.<br /><br />-They will recognize that a church full of people praying to an invisible, inaudible, intangible being because a book tells them to is irrational.<br /><br />- They will recognize that the bible unwarrantly accuses us of the disease, and then offers us the cure at the same time.<br /><br />On the contrary, I think wisdom points us in the opposite direction.<br />It is gullibility, fear, acceptance and dependability which leads us into religion.shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-68296475483941826082010-06-06T18:43:57.901-04:002010-06-06T18:43:57.901-04:00Prayer is an attempt to coerce god into granting t...Prayer is an attempt to coerce god into granting the petitioner a favorable outcome, except when it's a prayer of thanksgiving.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.com