tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post2911293296042060766..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Two "Liars for Jesus" and an Aging Philosopher.Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-51806832682971085182007-11-17T06:06:00.000-05:002007-11-17T06:06:00.000-05:00IN http://www.nzarh.org.nz/journal/2005v78n4sum.pd...IN http://www.nzarh.org.nz/journal/2005v78n4sum.pdf written in 2005, Antony Flew says 'Probably I should always have called myself an agnostic'.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88037497437586595242007-11-13T18:35:00.000-05:002007-11-13T18:35:00.000-05:00Carr said: ”In the parable Jesus compares himself ...Carr said: <I>”In the parable Jesus compares himself to a king who orders his enemies to be killed.”</I><BR/><BR/>IF so, it’s so good to see an atheist accept prophesy – how do align that with not believing in an afterlife? - or have I misjudged your position? <BR/><BR/>On the other hand you may be trapped in what appears to be a favourite atheist playpen – a literal, inerrant bible. In which case I suggest you broaden your perspective – try http://catholic-resources.org<BR/>/Bible/index.html for a start, it is still fairly conservative and not too big a shock for a literalist. You might find the section titled <B>The Key to Catholic Theology: The BOTH/AND Approach </B> interesting. After that you may want to move to more modern liberal theology.<BR/><BR/>Carr said:<I> “Clearly that was hyperbole, as everybody knows that kings and emperors in those days simply never did such things.”</I><BR/><BR/>I guess your point could easily be lost in sarcasm - would you be saying that the “kill the people” was to be expected in those days, so it should not even raise an eyebrow as the behaviour of a king in a story – a natural ending. You may well be right. Either way it does nothing to change the message of that part of the parable, that our actions have consequences. <BR/><BR/>Goprairie said: <I>”what YOU think Jesus was saying with it.”</I> <BR/>Fairly obvious and it does not involve cherry-picking. We are given talents and opportunities in life and the instruction as to how to use them. Get it right and there are rewards, misuse the talents and/or opportunities and there are negative consequences.<BR/><BR/>Goprairie said: <I> “You are saying what amounts to "the bible is true because it can be made to be true by interpretation".</I><BR/><BR/>The majority of Christians do not hold to the view of an inerrant literal bible, so interpretation is obviously necessary – clearly however, the interpretation is based on what is written, not the other way round. <BR/>As with any interpretation there can be differing views. The different interpretations can lead to quite different conclusions. It explains why the bible, while central to, is none the less only a part of the total doctrine for the majority of Christians. <BR/><BR/>To argue that interpretation creates truth is flawed, rather one should recognise that some interpretations may be better than others and have a more substantial scholarly foundation than others.akakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81469942439664834082007-11-13T09:01:00.000-05:002007-11-13T09:01:00.000-05:00If we are picking at the parable based on our misg...If we are picking at the parable based on our misguided interpretation of it, tell us what it really means, what YOU think Jesus was saying with it. Will it make you happier when we pick that apart instead, because it can and will be done. You are saying what amounts to "the bible is true because it can be made to be true by interpretation". cherry-picking by any other name is still cherry-picking. lies by any other name are still lies.goprairiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532311590000341237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-26788199426731209712007-11-13T01:35:00.000-05:002007-11-13T01:35:00.000-05:00In the parable Jesus compares himself to a king wh...In the parable Jesus compares himself to a king who orders his enemies to be killed.<BR/><BR/>Clearly that was hyperbole, as everybody knows that kings and emperors in those days simply never did such things.<BR/><BR/>In fact , 2000 years ago , whenever kings issued orders for people to be killed, none of his servants would very carry out his orders, as they knew it was just hyperbole.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25098163472035175082007-11-13T00:12:00.000-05:002007-11-13T00:12:00.000-05:00A somewhat belated thought.CARR said " Jesus, of c...A somewhat belated thought.<BR/>CARR said <I>" Jesus, of course, is about to go to Jerusalam, die and return to life."</I><BR/>Carr argues that Jesus is the king in the parable, alluding to the parallel of his departure and return in judgement.<BR/><BR/>If you accept that, then you also have to accept that the parable is prophetic in nature. That would be a tough call for an atheist.<BR/><BR/>I guess the atheist fallback may be that Jesus never said it - it was made up when the bible was written later on. Oops, then Jesus isn’t the demon you are trying to construct from this parable.<BR/><BR/>But wait, there is a further fallback - some atheists argue there never was a Jesus, so is Harris trying to vilify a mythical person. Would a rational person do that? <BR/><BR/>Looks like a bit of a “cake and eat it” dilemma for you.<BR/><BR/>I will stick with my original comment that it was hyperbola.akakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40147861203605609392007-11-12T23:00:00.000-05:002007-11-12T23:00:00.000-05:00Jr335 said: “He's trying to give an analogy of an ...Jr335 said: “<I>He's trying to give an analogy of an unsubstantiated claim which could be backed up with the same sort of logic as proposed by the religious,”</I> <BR/><BR/>An analogy is a comparison between things which have similar features used to make a point. Harris has invented a parallel which is manifestly inappropriate and then used it draw conclusions – in my book that looks like intellectual fraud.<BR/><BR/>Jr335 said: “<I> But unless you're happy to cherry-pick parts of the parable you really have to wonder why the "killing of enemies" statement comes into it at all.”</I><BR/><BR/>No need to cherry-pick. The simple explanation works for me - perhaps he used hyperbola to emphasise a point.akakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-45333728042391145542007-11-12T22:11:00.000-05:002007-11-12T22:11:00.000-05:00GordonBlood said...Jesus mythicists, atheist minis...<I> GordonBlood said...<BR/>Jesus mythicists, atheist ministers, mis-reading parables and pot-shots at converted intellects... just another day at DC...</I><BR/><BR/>Drive-by trolling,just another day on the internet...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37666498583921987632007-11-12T21:00:00.000-05:002007-11-12T21:00:00.000-05:00Jesus mythicists, atheist ministers, mis-reading p...Jesus mythicists, atheist ministers, mis-reading parables and pot-shots at converted intellects... just another day at DC...GordonBloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426901390201595020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4159676020934270552007-11-12T20:13:00.000-05:002007-11-12T20:13:00.000-05:00akakiwibear said... most of it seems to be a bit o...<I>akakiwibear said... most of it seems to be a bit of a stretch - comparison of the diamond in the back yard to theism for instance, try to extract the rational basis of that link?</I><BR/><BR/>He's trying to give an analogy of an unsubstantiated claim which could be backed up with the same sort of logic as proposed by the religious, but that any reasonable person would question given it's not a religious claim.<BR/><BR/><I>Parables are not to be taken literally; it is a characteristic of parables, they are stories used to indirectly convey a message through illustrative use of other characters and situations.</I><BR/><BR/>I think we all understand this. But unless you're happy to cherry-pick parts of the parable you really have to wonder why the "killing of enemies" statement comes into it at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86560501567129650062007-11-12T15:06:00.000-05:002007-11-12T15:06:00.000-05:00CARR people who claim that this is not a threat by...CARR <I>people who claim that this is not a threat by Jesus to have people killed who do not submit to his rule, must think atheists are right idiots who can't read.</I> <BR/><BR/>Parables are not to be taken literally; it is a characteristic of parables, they are stories used to indirectly convey a message through illustrative use of other characters and situations. <BR/><BR/>Hyperbole is a literary device available to story tellers and is often found in parables; hyperbole also should not be taken literally.akakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31002363382306411292007-11-12T14:50:00.000-05:002007-11-12T14:50:00.000-05:00Perhaps fundamentalist views can outweight normal ...<I>Perhaps fundamentalist views can outweight normal constraints on behavior.</I><BR/><BR/>And how many specific instances of faith-based atrocities would you require to change that "perhaps" to a "definitely"?Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72886329074618112412007-11-12T12:53:00.000-05:002007-11-12T12:53:00.000-05:00Dawkins is on public record as saying that he was ...Dawkins is on public record as saying that he was forced to have that title and he did not approve of it.<BR/><BR/>The people around Flew claim Flew was not manipulated in any way , and approved of everything.<BR/><BR/>I guess Flew really does call himself 'The World's Most Notorious Atheist'.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, he really would do that....Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-76403919010652369352007-11-12T06:42:00.000-05:002007-11-12T06:42:00.000-05:00By the way Steve Carr, Flew didn't choose the titl...By the way Steve Carr, Flew didn't choose the title, the publishers did.<BR/><BR/>At least, thats the exuse Dawkins gave when criticized for the title of his video, "The Root of All Evil?"<BR/><BR/>Worked for him. Works for Flew.<BR/><BR/>After all, thats only fair, and I KNOW that you want to be fair.Emanuel Goldsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02653303041185240250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-56724448699954690622007-11-12T06:39:00.000-05:002007-11-12T06:39:00.000-05:00Perhaps fundamentalist views can outweight normal ...Perhaps fundamentalist views can outweight normal constraints on behavior.<BR/><BR/>And perhaps atheism can eliminate normal constraints on behavior.<BR/><BR/>Lot of things are possible, but that is not an argument per se about either fundamentalism or atheism.Emanuel Goldsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02653303041185240250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22047079136555330462007-11-12T02:30:00.000-05:002007-11-12T02:30:00.000-05:00Good post, Valerie. I also like the Kenyan prayer...Good post, Valerie. I also like the Kenyan prayer that akawikibear quoted from your book. As tempting as it is to slip into the "big tent" mindset, and applaud everything said by those perceived to be friends, and deplore everything said by those we consider enemies, we should judge actions on their merits.<BR/><BR/>Jesus seemed to have been of two minds about this. On the one hand, he did say "By their fruits ye shall know them". On the other, he also said "He who is not with me is against me" and "whoever is not against us is for us".<BR/><BR/>Dr. Heddle over at <A HREF="http://helives.blogspot.com/2007/11/anthony-flew-yawn.html" REL="nofollow">He Lives</A> also sees no cause for jubilation among Christians about Flew's conversion, but only because Flew merely converted to deism, not Christianity. Whoever is not with us is against us.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31832035159001490902007-11-12T01:29:00.000-05:002007-11-12T01:29:00.000-05:00AKAKIWBEER'Any sensible reading of the whole parab...AKAKIWBEER<BR/>'Any sensible reading of the whole parable Luke 19:11-27 <BR/>makes it obvious that the words in verse 27 are those of the king in the parable and relate to the citizens referred to in verse 14. But not so for Harris who subtly presents them as a decree by Jesus to kill those who do not submit to his rule.'<BR/><BR/>CARR<BR/>Who is the king in the parable?<BR/><BR/>In Luke 19,Jesus is asked anout the kingdom of God, which some people think is going to appear immediately.<BR/><BR/>Jesus, of course, is about to go to Jerusalam, die and return to life.<BR/><BR/>To answer this question, Jesus tells a story about a nobleman who goes away to be made king and then returns later to take his kingdom.<BR/><BR/>Any parallels penetrated your brain yet?<BR/><BR/>Jesus was not telling some random parable, which had nothing to do with anything.<BR/><BR/>This parable actually had a meaning!<BR/><BR/><BR/>The parable was about Jesus, who was about to go away to be made king, and then return.<BR/> <BR/><BR/>Jesus *is* the king in the parable, and people who claim that this is not a threat by Jesus to have people killed who do not submit to his rule, must think atheists are right idiots who can't read.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72406642248080519132007-11-11T23:29:00.000-05:002007-11-11T23:29:00.000-05:00jr335, "Yes obviously it isn't Jesus' direct words...jr335, <I>"Yes obviously it isn't Jesus' direct words but I'd be interested to know what you think he means with that part of the parable"</I><BR/><BR/>In the Matthew 25:30 version of the same parable the ending is "And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - similar message to Luke.<BR/><BR/>This is also a similar message to that of the unproductive vine amongst others. It says to me (and I am not a bible scholar) that there are consequences for our actions, certainly in this life. <BR/><BR/>Peace - Hamba kahleakakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46608174262676532072007-11-11T22:03:00.000-05:002007-11-11T22:03:00.000-05:00jr335, "Harris seems to talk a fair bit of sense i...jr335, <I>"Harris seems to talk a fair bit of sense in that video"</I> not sure which bits you refer to - most of it seems to be a bit of a stretch - comparison of the diamond in the back yard to theism for instance, try to extract the rational basis of that link? <BR/><BR/>But it is the apparent sense of his lecture that conceals the slight of hand - the subtle linking from valid statement to a real porkie. I figure he could teach some bible bashers a thing or two in emotive working of a crowd.akakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-9635119484749684692007-11-11T21:40:00.000-05:002007-11-11T21:40:00.000-05:00akakiwibear said...Any sensible reading of the who...<I>akakiwibear said...<BR/>Any sensible reading of the whole parable Luke 19:11-27<BR/>http://www.biblegateway.com<BR/>/passage<BR/>/?book_id=49&chapter=19&version=31<BR/>makes it obvious that the words in verse 27 are those of the king in the parable and relate to the citizens referred to in verse 14. But not so for Harris who subtly presents them as a decree by Jesus to kill those who do not submit to his rule.</I><BR/><BR/>Harris seems to talk a fair bit of sense in that video. Yes obviously it isn't Jesus' direct words but I'd be interested to know what you think he means with that part of the parable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-30070909066175140592007-11-11T18:54:00.000-05:002007-11-11T18:54:00.000-05:00Valerie, as a reader of your blog I tend to agree ...Valerie, as a reader of your blog I tend to agree with a lot of your criticism of fundamentalist evangelists. But there is a real monocular approach evident there and in this lengthy diatribe where you seem avoid including atheist evangelists from your criticism of evangelists. Surely the use of emotive language, bias and distortion should be criticised for what it is rather than being used as a platform for the selective criticism of one group.<BR/><BR/>Now don’t get me wrong, I certainly don’t condone the “tricks” of fundamentalist evangelists any more than I do of atheist evangelists like yourself. I am a frequent critic of the Bible Belt evangelists and what are clearly intellectual frauds perpetrated to win converts or extol their flocks.<BR/><BR/>Aside from your post which speaks for itself in terms of bias, or the emotive style of your blog which seems to cloud some valid issues, or the subtly misguided arguments you present in your book, I offer up Sam Harris as an example of an atheist evangelist that should be included in your criticism. <BR/>An example ….<BR/>Sam Harris is fond of this quoting Luke 19:27 to prove his point that the NT promotes horrors, e.g. http://www.youtube.com<BR/>/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM if your nonsense filter has too fine a setting you can pick it up at minute 17 - or you can play a game of spotting the interweave of truth and deception in the preceding 17 minutes, but it can be boring!<BR/>Any sensible reading of the whole parable Luke 19:11-27 <BR/>http://www.biblegateway.com<BR/>/passage<BR/>/?book_id=49&chapter=19&version=31 <BR/>makes it obvious that the words in verse 27 are those of the king in the parable and relate to the citizens referred to in verse 14. But not so for Harris who subtly presents them as a decree by Jesus to kill those who do not submit to his rule. <BR/><BR/>Come on … is this an example of the intellectual high ground claimed by reasonable, rational and logical atheists? Or is your post simply a case of the pot calling the kettle?<BR/> <BR/>In your book you say <I>” How would our world be different if all of us genuinely opened ourselves to the pursuit of truth, wherever that might lead? What if we all, Christian and non-Christian alike, echoed the prayer of a Kenyan brother:<BR/><BR/>From the cowardice that dare not face new truth,<BR/>From the laziness that is contented with half truth,<BR/>From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,<BR/>Good Lord, deliver us”.</I><BR/>Great sentiment! Indeed it urges us to be vigilant for half truths and intellectual arrogance, a vigilance that we should not drop simply because the author is atheist.akakiwibearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324950054939335251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17731625281538203992007-11-11T17:38:00.000-05:002007-11-11T17:38:00.000-05:00I didn't see anywhere to post this, so I just thou...I didn't see anywhere to post this, so I just thought I'd throw it up here.<BR/>My wife and I recently started a "church" for atheists. www.firstchurchofatheism.com We are ordaining people to be atheist ministers, in order to allow atheists to perform ceremonies for other atheists, such as weddings and funerals. It is 100% legal and free. I'd like for you and your readers to come and check it out, and if you like what you see could you put a link to us, or maybe write an article about us? Or simply tell your friends. I really like your site, and would be honored to associate with it. Our site is new, but in the near future we will be adding a "links" or "atheist resources" page, and we would be happy to include you on it.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your time!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08654692433592739434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86932712442768911102007-11-11T16:57:00.000-05:002007-11-11T16:57:00.000-05:00I never met Bob Hostetler, but I knew his brother ...I never met Bob Hostetler, but I knew his brother and father when I was in college. His father was my neighbor for 4 years. They're a good family and it saddens me to see that Bob let his good intentions get in the way of his good sense in this situation. <BR/><BR/>Your analysis of the evangelical Christian mindset that could have led to this debacle is insightful and accurately captures many of the dynamics at play. I hope Christians will take it to heart rather than reject it simply because it comes from not just a non-believer but a de-converted believer.Eviehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00212038923735410573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62955382697802820012007-11-11T16:08:00.000-05:002007-11-11T16:08:00.000-05:00Okay, Part I is second.And how about that there co...Okay, Part I is second.<BR/><BR/>And how about that there conservation of "y"?https://www.blogger.com/profile/03037704048671379868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1937595174654369902007-11-11T16:04:00.000-05:002007-11-11T16:04:00.000-05:00Here's a lill' discover I made and put on film (tw...Here's a lill' discover I made and put on film (two parts).<BR/><BR/>It tells of the formation, by Ovid, of the Jesus myth.<BR/><BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sckuqPulRGk<BR/><BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzY2bVsZK5s<BR/><BR/>Stay on Groovin' Safari,<BR/>Torhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03037704048671379868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-42838745675544109292007-11-11T15:57:00.000-05:002007-11-11T15:57:00.000-05:00Talking on insanity, does anybody in their right m...Talking on insanity, does anybody in their right mind think that Flew wrote a book whose title calls him 'The World's Most Notorious Atheist'?<BR/><BR/>Is that how Flew refers to himself?<BR/><BR/>Reality check here, folks....Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.com