tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post2424249977545470292..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Let's Think About the Big PictureUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6939652290499603982007-10-21T05:52:00.000-04:002007-10-21T05:52:00.000-04:00I wonder what to those whom their god speaks to th...I wonder what to those whom their god speaks to them, says? Perhaps what a good little Christian they are. And in what language would this god speak to them, since the god of the bible did not know how to speak in english.<BR/><BR/>Our brains we must imagine things, otherwise no roads or bridges or modes of transportation would have been built.<BR/><BR/>We would have been much much farther along in technologies if humans had not waisted so much time in believing in spiritual nonsense, trying to please an imaginary invisible god.Steven Bentlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16139666223082953913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39015652494579243872007-10-20T23:16:00.000-04:002007-10-20T23:16:00.000-04:00Many who I read of today will swear they hear His ...<I>Many who I read of today will swear they hear His audible voice- many seem to me wacky and many very reliable. How can any man say this is absolute impossibility?</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know anyone here who would say that's an impossibility. However, allow me to point out that there are also people who converse with Napoleon, aliens, Julius Ceasar, Abraham Lincon, fairies, etc. It is possible that they are all actually communicating with these beings; however, their belief that they do so is not sufficient evidence to justify my belief that it is true. Revealed knowledge is inherently unreliable, as it cannot be verified. <BR/><BR/>The human brain is known to anthropormorphize natural phenomana, which is why we often hear voices in the wind, or see faces in vague shapes through the window. This fact has been verified by scientific studies. Religious feelings have been induced in some people via magnetic manipulation of the brain. Why are you so sure that your experience is real, whereas the people who talk to Napoleon, aliens, Ceasar, etc. are false?Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-60231801872842545152007-10-20T22:18:00.000-04:002007-10-20T22:18:00.000-04:00To Andrew, Bryan, John et al:I too am a Christian ...To Andrew, Bryan, John et al:<BR/>I too am a Christian who will say that I KNOW and have a "personal relationship" with God. I also have been working hard and long to be less "religious" and more real. I know most of you probably have enough bible familiarity to know it says we worship an unseen and at some levels an unknowable God. And it also records long talks between God and certain men and women. I do not claim to hearing audible voices of the spirit realm...and I claim absolutely I have communed with God. Many who I read of today will swear they hear His audible voice- many seem to me wacky and many very reliable. How can any man say this is absolute impossibility?edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02373623210779460601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12932794775254393072007-10-20T17:11:00.000-04:002007-10-20T17:11:00.000-04:00The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond...<I>The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?</I><BR/><BR/>I hate it when Christians take a verse out of context that can vaguely be taken as a naturalistic principle if you look at it sideways, and claim that as a prophecy of later scientific discoveries. If you want profound ancient knowledge of the fallibility of human perception, look to Plato's <I>Republic</I>, not the Bible. This verse refers to the <I>wickedness</I> of man's heart, not the fallibility of his senses, and how God judges man by the contents of his heart and his actions, and gives to each accordingly (Jer. 17:10).Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-9856774086031763012007-10-20T12:57:00.000-04:002007-10-20T12:57:00.000-04:00I'm not interested in deciding what is factually t...I'm not interested in deciding what is factually true by the human heart---that's what christians do when they pray and tell themselves that they feel in "their heart" that God is telling them to do X while someone else praying on the same issue believes in their heart God is telling them Y. <BR/><BR/>There is no getting around it. If we wish to be as little self-deceived as possible we must struggle to develop the ability to think critically, objectively and rationally. There are no magic short-cuts to the truth.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4005597168825256152007-10-20T12:38:00.000-04:002007-10-20T12:38:00.000-04:00DBE says: Human beings are simply too prone to sel...DBE says: Human beings are simply too prone to self-deceptions and delusory flights of imagination to accept such experiences as any but the most paltry of evidence.<BR/><BR/>I also love it when humanity learns and learns and learns and then figures out the bible had it right several hundreds of years ago:<BR/><BR/>The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? <BR/><BR/>Jeremiah 17:9Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65353761911497341242007-10-20T11:25:00.000-04:002007-10-20T11:25:00.000-04:00Shygetz- I would probly feel much the same as you ...Shygetz- I would probly feel much the same as you concerning Christians who are anti-evolution/science or those who think we can waste the world because God will save it. The difference of course is I come down on the question of God very differently.GordonBloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426901390201595020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47996301807040969562007-10-20T09:42:00.000-04:002007-10-20T09:42:00.000-04:00Andrew: (to return to the original post)While I th...Andrew: (to return to the original post)<BR/>While I think that disbelief IS growing in actual numbers, I think the figures showing it might be misleading. There have always been a fairly large percentage of 'nominal' or 'secular' believers, people who attended church on Easter and Christmas, who's answer 'the right way' if asked their religion, but for whom religion played no part in their lives. I think a growing number of <I>them</I> now feel free to confess their disbelief and this may be inflating the 'rate of change.' (Its all to the good, sure, and this is much the way Europe has become a 'post-Christian' society, but these are not people who care enough about the questions to support an 'atheist movement.')<BR/><BR/>As for an 'atheist tv station' this would not get many viewers, I'm afraid. I find it muich more important that there are now openly atheist characters on broadcast tv shows. Greg House's atheism has gbeen a plot point -- but Dr. Wilson, when criticizing House for telling a dying patient that there was no afterlife, particularly stated, 'Okay, it's a fairytale, but can't you leave him with that comfort?' (I'm quasi-quoting, but this was the effect, and he did use 'fairytale'.)<BR/><BR/>And last night, on NUMBERS -- hardly a great show, but still one that's been around for over three years -- Charley, the protagonist, made his own atheism plain.<BR/><BR/>And COLD CASE and some of the other Bruckheimer shows have done their own fileting of Christianity -- and the "That Woman" episode of COLD CASE was particularly vicious.<BR/><BR/>(Anyone spotted any others.) Again, disbelief is no longer hidden away, and hooray for that. We don't need an atheist equivalent of LOGO.<BR/><BR/>Just minor points. Again, the ball is rolling rapidly by itself. I am one of those people who sees a kernel of truth in the idea of a social dialectic, that it will procede well enough by itself, with minor help like this site and the various books by John and others, but if we push too strongly, we'll get too much of a 'push back' by Christians.<BR/><BR/>(Oh, and one minor point about 'credulous atheists,' yes, they exist -- see Prup's law -- and this is why I've never been a fan of Sam Harris.)<BR/><BR/>That last point is why I think the best thing we can do is work towards teaching 'critical thinking' and let THAT 'do our work for us.' <BR/><BR/>This seems to have been one of my 'first post in the morning' scattershot posts, but I hope my meaning came through the rambling. Now let me hope the caffeine hits faster.Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16538152831648246202007-10-20T09:11:00.000-04:002007-10-20T09:11:00.000-04:00DBE says: Human beings are simply too prone to se...DBE says: Human beings are simply too prone to self-deceptions and delusory flights of imagination to accept such experiences as any but the most paltry of evidence.<BR/><BR/>I agree. Which is also why I place my faith in a God who isn't "too prone to ...."<BR/><BR/>I don't have a problem saying that it is by faith I live, which means that I am accepting something I can't objectively prove but which I can subjectively experience. <BR/><BR/>Goprairie, if I am mentally ill then I would rather be that way than the way I was when I wasn't hearing God's voice. <BR/><BR/>You ask how it is different... between a nonreligious person enjoying life about which she has no clue of its origins or source or purpose or meaning and someone who attributes life to a life source and purpose giver... <BR/><BR/>Seems vastly different to me.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39950779977341975692007-10-20T07:46:00.000-04:002007-10-20T07:46:00.000-04:00As an atheist, I find great joy in my kids and gre...As an atheist, I find great joy in my kids and great joy in nature and great joy in friends and on and on. People of other religions do the same. How can that be your 'relationship' with God when I have the same experiences void of any beleif in God? My lack of a God in it makes me want to know more about it in a scientific way. Why is the flower colored that way leads to studying insects and how they see and interesting coevolution aspects of the flower and the insect 'fitting' each other and how the pollen maturing earlier or later than when that flower is receptive to pollen leads to cross-pollination and continued diversity and therefore adaptablility within a species. I suggest that you attributiing it to God leaves you at awe and with no interest in pursuing details the way someone who sees it as science. Or the question of why do we find a flower beautiful ends at 'because God made it happen to briing us pleasure' but if you have no God, you can study evolution and try to figure out why - the higher primates who found flowers interesting and made note of them mentally had an advantage in finding food later, as flowers mature to fruit or seed. Infinately more interesting to learn and think about than just thanking god for the pretty flower and leaving it there. And voices? Interesting that in any context other than religion, hearing voices is considered a symptom of mental illness. Does marginal mental illness predispose one to fervent religous beleif or does fervent religion beleif affect the brain to the extent that mental illness symptoms come to express themselves. <BR/>In the end, anything presented as a personal relationship with God 1) happens to people who have no personal relationship with God and 2) has other scientific explanations.goprairiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532311590000341237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40794656595873851022007-10-20T02:16:00.000-04:002007-10-20T02:16:00.000-04:00If God does in fact exist, and one's experience in...<B><BR/>If God does in fact exist, and one's experience in fact corroborates that, then it makes perfect sense. <BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Believing as a result of an experience that has no characteristics which allows you to distinguish it from a figment of your imagination is corroboration of nothing but your credulity. This hold true whether God actually exists or not---just as it would for someone making the claim that telepathic aliens are communicating with him.<BR/><BR/>In both cases, without objective corroboration that the experience is from something external to his mind he would have no reasonable basis for being convinced he wasn't just imagining the whole thing.<BR/><BR/>For example, whether you believe you are in contact with a diety or telepathic aliens let those entities demonstrate their reality by communicating to you information you don't already have but could verify (for example, the precise spectrographic characteristics of a particular star).<BR/><BR/>If this entity can do so, you have ample verification that your experience isn't a figment of your imagination.<BR/><BR/>If not.....<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>Besides, my point wasn't really the analogy. My point was that anyone who claims to have deconverted to a point of atheism is of necessity saying that all they had with regard to a god was a head knowledge about such an entity......I am saying that I experience God. He is my friend. He exists.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Actually, I suspect many atheists had much the same experience which they interpreted as contact with God that you do (I had such feelings of contact with God when a believer myself). The question is the veriticality of such experiences. You are simply assuming, without apparent basis and certainly without argument to that effect, that such experiences are of an external object (God). I, apparently unlike you, was able and willing to examine those experiences with a more critical eye and found them to be poor evidence, even for the one having them, of the existence of God.<BR/><BR/>Human beings are simply too prone to self-deceptions and delusory flights of imagination to accept such experiences as any but the most paltry of evidence.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-30769649870526130142007-10-19T22:29:00.001-04:002007-10-19T22:29:00.001-04:00BTW, most word pictures fall apart if tried to str...BTW, most word pictures fall apart if tried to stretch beyond their intent. :)Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29157566043562828362007-10-19T22:29:00.000-04:002007-10-19T22:29:00.000-04:00David B. Ellis,Your analogy is just as bad simply ...David B. Ellis,<BR/><BR/>Your analogy is just as bad simply because you do not believe in God or in the imaginary friend. If God does in fact exist, and one's experience in fact corroborates that, then it makes perfect sense. <BR/><BR/>Besides, my point wasn't really the analogy. My point was that anyone who claims to have deconverted to a point of atheism is of necessity saying that all they had with regard to a god was a head knowledge about such an entity. It could not have been an experiential knowledge. So, it's not really a deconversion as much as it is a different conclusion than previously drawn based on more or different knowledge that no longer allows that person to draw the conclusion that there is a god.<BR/><BR/>I am saying that I experience God. He is my friend. He exists. He answers prayer. He loves me. He created me. He knows me. I am His friend. I am His Son. I talk to Him and He me. Those who haven't had such an experience will most likely read that and assume that I am nuts. That is fine with me. Assume that. It won't change a thing for me. You may think that perhaps, like one's child with an imaginary friend, I'll grow up and see the light that God never existed. <BR/><BR/>I tried to do that. It didn't work. I tried to run from God. Praise God for the big fish of life.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25673234215308727932007-10-19T21:38:00.000-04:002007-10-19T21:38:00.000-04:00gordonblood said: Ive met atheists who believe in ...gordonblood said: <I>Ive met atheists who believe in souls, ghosts, U.F.O's and agnostics spouting the same views...My point here is that atheism does not always equal reason, rationality or even open-mindedness...</I><BR/><BR/>I certainly hope no one has said that there is no such thing as a credulous atheist, because I agree with you; that is entirely untrue. I have met many atheists/agnostics who firmly believe in homeopathy, which I consider even more silly than many strains of religion.<BR/><BR/><I>...and I would go so far as to say that certain people on this blog occasionally prove that in spades.</I><BR/><BR/>Do you really want to descend into personal insults? If so, let me know--I've got decades of pent-up insults that have been hanging around since my high-school days, just longing to break free.<BR/><BR/><I>Most agnostics that I have met generally do lean closer to theism than atheism, they just arent willing to make a intellectual commitment.</I><BR/><BR/>I have actually observed the opposite; most self-identified agnostics I know firmly disbelieve the God of organized religions, but leave open the ideas of deist and non-interventionist gods. Additionally, some people who philosophically fall closer to the atheist category find it more socially acceptable to call themselves agnostic.<BR/><BR/><I>So while x percentage may be atheist or agnostic a much smaller y percentage (probly less than 10% of x) is actually interested in popularizing atheism or agnosticism.</I><BR/><BR/>But perhaps they would enjoy living in a society that did not distrust them for their lack of faith.<BR/><BR/><I>With that said, I find it amusing that you seem to think the Christian church does that much to evangelize. At least in Canada almost noone goes around trying to get people to convert or even talk about religion, either religious or non-religious, and I imagine things arent that radically different in much of America.</I><BR/><BR/>I can vouch for three states in the Southeastern United States being similar to david's experience in Kentucky. Especially during the summer, hardly a week would go by without some earnest group of young men and/or women coming by the house to spread their religion. We also have preachers on streetcorners (often with megaphones), which is especially bad on the college campuses. There is <A HREF="http://www.christianpost.com/article/" REL="nofollow">an absurd anti-evolution billboard right near my home.</A> I do not think I exaggerate.<BR/><BR/><I>Most agnostics (and atheists) have very little interest intellectually in wanting people to believe what they do, they just want to live their lives.</I><BR/><BR/>I would say this is true of most <B>people</B>, including theists. I was this way until theists decided to screw with science education and global politics. Since everyone gets the same number of votes as me, I would like as few of them as possible to be rooting for the end of the world.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15385598400581064432007-10-19T18:09:00.000-04:002007-10-19T18:09:00.000-04:00The French demographer Emmanuel Todd argues that I...The French demographer Emmanuel Todd <A HREF="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/22/10244/7805" REL="nofollow">argues</A> that Islam has started to lose influence in many traditionally Muslim societies. His evidence? A rapid decline in birth rates. So even religious belief in the less educated parts of the world shows signs of going away over the long run.Mark Plushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03859046131830902921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90862263952581531762007-10-19T15:21:00.000-04:002007-10-19T15:21:00.000-04:00I dont know David, being a former deist now Anglic...I dont know David, being a former deist now Anglican myself I dont see my fellow students being "skeptical" even if they are atheististic. Ive met atheists who believe in souls, ghosts, U.F.O's and agnostics spouting the same views. I consider myself a skeptic if one defines skeptic as not believing in things without good reason but I do not throw myself in the atheistic or agnostic pen. My point here is that atheism does not always equal reason, rationality or even open-mindedness and I would go so far as to say that certain people on this blog occasionally prove that in spades.GordonBloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426901390201595020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-51616873263601000912007-10-19T13:33:00.000-04:002007-10-19T13:33:00.000-04:00At least in Canada almost noone goes around trying...<B><BR/>At least in Canada almost noone goes around trying to get people to convert or even talk about religion, either religious or non-religious, and I imagine things arent that radically different in much of America.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>depends on where you live. Here in Murray Kentucky I regularly see enthusiastic young christians (members of the state college here christian student organization) standing at streetcorners with signs proclaiming christian slogans. I have had two christians approach me and "witness" to me---asking about my relationship with christ. I always talk openly with them about my skepticism and my reasons for it. Instead of holding daily morning prayer services in the christian center just off campus as they used to they now hold them in the common area of the student center on campus. <BR/><BR/>As skepticism has grown among the youth I've seen the college christian group grow far more aggressive in it proselytizing efforts (rather desperately so, it seems to me).David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31668653904412481212007-10-19T13:23:00.000-04:002007-10-19T13:23:00.000-04:00For example, are any of you divorced? You experien...<B><BR/>For example, are any of you divorced? You experienced your wife or husband. In every way. Sure, he or she masked themselves and hid themselves and weren't perfect, just as you did, but you experienced them and they you. Even though for many who've gone through such an experience they wish that person never existed, that person exists regardless. And, when you are honest about your very real experiences with a person or an entity, you cannot claim the other never existed. <BR/><BR/>Anyone you have known experientially, cannot be said to have never existed. For a group that values reason so much, this seems plain.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Ah, another sample of the Argument For God By Bad Analogy.<BR/><BR/>You claim that those who have a "relationship" with God have the same reason to believe God exists that we have to believe our wives (or ex-wives, I have neither) exist.<BR/><BR/>It seems almost a waste of time to point out how something so obvious is mistaken but, oh well, once more into the breach:<BR/><BR/>Imagine that you and your wife and a friend are in a room together. You speak to your wife and ask her to say five random numerals off the top of her head. You can turn to your friend and ask him what numerals she said and he can repeat them. You could continue to do this all day and keep getting it right because SHE'S A REAL PERSON.<BR/><BR/>Try sitting in a room just you and your child and your childs invisible friend (who she insists emphatically is real). When the friend talks to her only she can hear it. She can in no way communicate something to your daughter that you can independently hear as well and communicate to your daughter demonstrating that she exists other than in the childs imagination.<BR/><BR/>Which of these two situations does the "relationship" with God bears a stronger resemblence to?David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85511439768867819952007-10-19T12:39:00.000-04:002007-10-19T12:39:00.000-04:00I should probly say something else. You seem to be...I should probly say something else. You seem to be arguing that you have the numbers to do all these great projects (put out more "popular" atheist books, start a television station etc etc) Frankly you are confusing numbers of non-religious persons with the reality that most are just as uncomfortable around people like yourself. Most agnostics that I have met generally do lean closer to theism than atheism, they just arent willing to make a intellectual commitment. My point here? Most agnostics (and atheists) have very little interest intellectually in wanting people to believe what they do, they just want to live their lives. So while x percentage may be atheist or agnostic a much smaller y percentage (probly less than 10% of x) is actually interested in popularizing atheism or agnosticism. With that said, I find it amusing that you seem to think the Christian church does that much to evangelize. At least in Canada almost noone goes around trying to get people to convert or even talk about religion, either religious or non-religious, and I imagine things arent that radically different in much of America.GordonBloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426901390201595020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-60825687814908144362007-10-19T12:37:00.000-04:002007-10-19T12:37:00.000-04:00Brother Crow, I don't believe that God's only reve...Brother Crow, I don't believe that God's only revelation of Himself is through the Bible and I wouldn't characterize such teaching as the whole of Christian teaching. Some do believe that and I think that is the beginning of the death of a belief in God. It was the beginning of the death of my own belief in God, but thankfully when God saved me He revealed Himself to me as a real and personal Daddy, not just a theological concept of a perfect Father. <BR/><BR/>I see God revealed in Jesus. I see God revealed in the Bible. I see God revealed in the sunsets (they are particularly good in Kona, Hawaii) and in all of creation. I hear God revealed through His voice. Some would say schizoid; I would say sometimes. :) But sometimes it is His voice, the voice of my shepherd and one that, as His sheep, I can hear. I can know. I can experience. <BR/><BR/>God is revealed through my children and through the ability to create them just as He created us, His children. I believe God reveals Himself constantly in and through creation. <BR/><BR/>I eschew how it seems the writers here always link to things they've said before, so I probably shouldn't do it, but I will say that I've written numerous times about personal experiences of God in my life at my blog. I will, at some point, write examples here or link to them and learn to blog that way, as you do here. I'm on the run now, so I'll stop there. <BR/><BR/>Oh, as to personal relationship, I believe God really created us to fellowship with Him just as we do with our wives and friends. I'm glad that He calls out to us "where are you?" (see Genesis 3:9)<BR/><BR/>I have enjoyed the blog. Thank you!Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71913036023040825062007-10-19T12:31:00.000-04:002007-10-19T12:31:00.000-04:00I have only afew comments on this article... First...I have only afew comments on this article... Firstly I love how the author makes the grand assumption that all you have to do is learn about all the religions and youl realize they arent true. (If you disagree with my interpretation he did say that one book "the case against christianity" would equal 2 billion converts to skepticism, which it itself not atheism or even agnosticism but a school of philosophical thought about how to approach knowledge.) As for the massive amount of religious change in the last 100 years the author seems to completely forget the massive amount of that was enforced by Marxist governments; not by the will of the people. In fact religious faith in these areas where the right to practice open religious faith was taken away is now sky-rocketing. The last thing I would say is im not terribly amazed that you had such an easy time "de-converting" your freinds; a faith that could be so easily deconstructed was probly not terribly authentic anyways, frankly. Most Americans hold to such a nominal form of Christianity (if you dont believe this than just look at the literature on religious ignorance in America)that in many cases its barely holding to an orthodox faith anyhow. Im not expecting every Christian to get a Phd but I am expecting Christians to have a basic knowledge of why they believe what they do and to be familiar with atheist and agnostic positions on things. Not doing so probly suggests they dont care that much about the truth of what they believe anyhow.GordonBloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426901390201595020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38415071191224966492007-10-19T12:25:00.000-04:002007-10-19T12:25:00.000-04:00The issue of personal relationship with God, knowi...The issue of personal relationship with God, knowing God, is a profoundly weird and nonquantifiable one. BR, how can you objectively speak of having a personal relationship with God? He is not a physical presence (unless you ascribe to the mystical teaching of the Catholic church of the sacrament), He does not offer any evidential experiences or actions for relationship (for example: my wife, a person I can objectively identify, wears a ring, speaks of me, gives me hugs). How does relationship with God evidenced? Another question: knowing God? According to christian teaching, we can only know God through His own self-revelation, which is professed to be infallibly done in the Bible. That means we can only know God by first knowing facts about Him. How can we differentiate between facts learned about God and then turning that into a personal knowledge of Him? How do I know god loves me? The Bible tells me so. Then, my feelings respond to that, and I have a personal experience of that knowledge.<BR/><BR/>Are you proposing that there is another type of knowing? That is what gnostics profess...is that where you are coming from? Also, John questioned the good doctor about "the witness of the Spirit." Is that this knowledge that is not based on fact?<BR/><BR/>I was a christian for over 30 years, and what I truly believed was a personal relationship with god. It was, I have concluded, delusional. Why? Because god never revealed himself to me apart from the bible and my emotional experiences to it. I wept at thoughts like sunset, and being a father, and hearing a beautiful song or waterfall...but ultimately I came to see that that was only something I was calling "personal relationship to God" but was in fact far more simple and human than that. <BR/><BR/>I hope you enjoy your time on this site. thanks for writing.Don Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10624128241297548817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40478979607551873192007-10-19T11:18:00.000-04:002007-10-19T11:18:00.000-04:00I would love to be able to convert my friends and ...I would love to be able to convert my friends and family to scepticism but unfortunately I usually have neither the time or the fluency to do it. On the contrary to you, I've been a sceptic and atheist for most of my life and I still have not managed to convince even one person :(<BR/><BR/>I would love a more detailed post on how you went about doing that. What where the steps you followed and the problems you encountered. <BR/><BR/>My sister has recently (last year) started a relationship with a devout orthodox christian and while she was an agnostic before that, now I believe she will slowly convert to his version of Christianity (he is very charismatic). As I am not near to give the antilogue, I do not know how to help.Divided By Zer0https://www.blogger.com/profile/02161522651023903941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-66519760191729198162007-10-19T10:55:00.000-04:002007-10-19T10:55:00.000-04:00Bryan, John, what specifically are you talking abo...Bryan, John, what specifically are you talking about as a 'personal relationship with God'? When, what, how, describe? When I am in nature I have feelings of closeness to it and of being part of larger universe that are, what, 'transcendental' feelings, and if it is like that, I am pretty sure a brain scientist could tell us what parts of the brain are being stimulated and why and how. Some people who are schizophrenic hear voices and beleive them to be real and coming in their ears from somewhere in the world and others know they are a product of the mind. Brain science can tell where in the brain they happen and can induce them with stimulation. But until you define what that 'personal relationship with God' is, I can't understand the conversation. My personal realtionship with my friend consists of going to lunch or walks with her, calling on the phone, emailing, and just thinking about her and what she would say about something and planning what I will tell her about something I am experiencing that she would be interested in. She is a real physical entity that I can interact with physically, but also can have thoughts about. But I do not know what a personal relationship with 'God' means.goprairiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532311590000341237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-44663692059853763052007-10-19T10:50:00.000-04:002007-10-19T10:50:00.000-04:00Goprairie, followers of Jesus are much the same wa...Goprairie, followers of Jesus are much the same way. It's easy in Arkansas to talk about going to church, but it is something different to talk about following Jesus and really seeking to follow directives from some unseen entity. People, when you start talking about God speaking to you through the Holy Spirit, often begin to think you are crazy, even those who claim to be Christians. People don't understand how I can not know where I will be in January because I'm awaiting orders from my Boss. :) <BR/><BR/>Many religious Christians explain away such things as only for "apostolic times" and point to charismatics as nuts. And, those who claim to be charismatics do little to defray such a characterization. Frail humanity...<BR/><BR/>John, it is evidence. It isn't conclusive. It can, however, be weighed. It actually would fit in with the lengthy post about the Leibnizian Cosmological Argument (a new one for me). <BR/><BR/>Have you had trouble with allowing anonymous comments? I only ask because I like to sign in as other but identifying myself.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.com