tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post2053277315766992354..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: My Next Book: The Outsider Test for FaithUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89222954939060612512010-07-11T23:19:38.446-04:002010-07-11T23:19:38.446-04:00I would like to be a Christian that can offer coun...I would like to be a Christian that can offer counter-arguments. I would like to hear some of your material, and would be willing to offer respectful and valuable feedback.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09346683489779153232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89740099324129459912010-06-29T16:40:44.069-04:002010-06-29T16:40:44.069-04:00Maybe you could work this into a subtitle:
"...Maybe you could work this into a subtitle:<br /><br />"Who TOLD you the grass wasn't greener on the other side? A refutation of anyone's claim that their's is the one true religion."<br /><br />Also, John, could you manage to write this new book at a high school level instead of college level? It think it would reach more people.<br /><br />Thanks for all that you do.Emoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09520109386695075606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-35606743059295795962010-06-23T15:25:45.945-04:002010-06-23T15:25:45.945-04:00I find the dissent Rob offers via Common Sense Ath...I find the dissent Rob offers via Common Sense Atheism that the New Atheists philosophical and theological chops are inept to be a weak contention.<br /><br />Most believers do not depend on sophisticated theological or philosophical arguments to assert their oppositions to science (e.g. Intelligent Design advocates and evolution deniers) or civil rights (e.g. gay rights opponents). The work of the New Atheists simply offer more intelligent means of decision making contra-religion and they are working in the long tradition of cultural intellectual practice NOT theology or philosophy. <br /><br />Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig (and their fan boys like Rob R) can be secure that their arguments for Christianity are solid within the academy of theology and philosophy relative to the work of the New Atheists but, I'd guess that most practicing Christians don't know what their arguments or who the men are.<br /><br />Recent polling data indicates an uptick in declared atheism and I would venture it strongly correlates to public intellectuals like Harris, Hitchens, Stenger, Loftus, Dennett, and Dawkins speaking intelligently in a publicly digestable way.<br /><br />Rob R, you yourself have admitted an evolved Christianity based on some of the same contentions these men argue which, you also admit, is considered unorthodox to some of your fellow church goers.<br /><br />I'd say your intellectual curiosity and willingness to mutate your theology (open theism) in line with current ethics and morality is similar to the call for a way of knowing that does not elevate the bible as our best repository of knowledge (a central claim of many of the new atheists).Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1380598529038522862010-06-23T07:38:00.669-04:002010-06-23T07:38:00.669-04:00Alan,
I really like the idea of having to explain...Alan,<br /><br />I really like the idea of having to explain your faith to someone who would be totally unfamilair with it. It does help you see how absurd some of the stuff is.<br /><br />I remember thinking this very thing when I was considering inviting my neighbor to come to a small group meeting at church. I thought she would like the people cause they were very nice and friendly, but I thought she would find silly some of the things we seemed to truly believe. She is well-educated and level-headed.<br /><br />Anyway, I really like that exercise you mentioned and wish we could get lots of Christians to perform it. It could open their eyes. They would have no familiarity with all our little phrases and what they mean. We'd have to explain in detail. The silliness or unliklihood would show forth.<br /><br />I think those from other faiths could also get somewhat embarrassed if they had to explain the beliefs in their own faith to an outsider.<br /><br />So I guess John is wanting the Christian to ask the questions of Christianity, where maybe he should have them instead write out their faith to present to a class of foreigners. Wait, I guess many Christians do this when they are witnessing. That act must get some of them thinking?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27593964637426266452010-06-23T03:19:02.660-04:002010-06-23T03:19:02.660-04:00John,
I think it would be best to call it "T...John,<br /><br />I think it would be best to call it "The Outsider Test For Faith". I think that is the most descriptive, and I think that because you are popularizing this test I think it would be good to call it that. It really is descriptive and it'd be an excellent name for a book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-34462654544179770432010-06-23T01:02:41.673-04:002010-06-23T01:02:41.673-04:00Thanks John. I didn't know you had such a pos...Thanks John. I didn't know you had such a post on motives. I do appreciate this, because motives do matter to me. Why people do what they do is intriguing and facinating! Obviously, an intelligent man like yourself could be doing any number of influential things with your life, so there are motives that compel you to do this particular thing.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />JoeJoe Staubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15354614785249175583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-53352835974986833662010-06-22T20:51:44.310-04:002010-06-22T20:51:44.310-04:00@Joe,
Your comment, "Why are you guys being ...@Joe,<br /><br />Your comment, "Why are you guys being so pompus with me?" brought a smile and a chuckle. I have absolutely no idea what comment made you feel the way you do. I actually thought your question prompted some nice discussion! But then again, I'm a pompous ass!Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09484481246432964371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31334874049650387192010-06-22T19:45:59.898-04:002010-06-22T19:45:59.898-04:00Joe Staub, my motivations are varied just like eve...Joe Staub, my motivations are varied just like everyone else. <br /><br />But to see what they are, <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/05/frequently-asked-questions-index.html" rel="nofollow">follow this link</a> and read the posts under the heading, "What Motivates Us to Debunk Christianity?"<br /><br />Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7061631184156653252010-06-22T17:29:12.023-04:002010-06-22T17:29:12.023-04:00Why are you guys being so pompus toward me about m...Why are you guys being so pompus toward me about my request? All I asked for, in what I thought was a respectful request, was John, what is your motive for doing this? What is your internal drive? What's is it that you are trying to accomplish? What motivates you? Is it a desire to destroy Christianity? To save people from there stupidity, or mental disorder? Are you on a mission? What ever you want to call it. I'm not asking if it's right or wrong to be a Christian or an atheist. It's a person question. <br /><br />Also, I did take the OTF over a year ago. John forgot. I interacted with him a few times about it. This is a sincere and respectful request.<br /><br />JoeJoe Staubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15354614785249175583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17030430397838085482010-06-22T16:56:58.770-04:002010-06-22T16:56:58.770-04:00The event that started me on my loss of Catholic f...The event that started me on my loss of Catholic faith was an exercise similar to the Outsider Test of Faith. In a small group at a church camp in high school, my group had to explain the entire Catholic mass to the instructor who was posing as an alien from another planet. This "alien" was to have just arrived to Earth, and was curious about what this service was all about. Needless to say, having to explain it this way made me realize that so much didn't make sense, at least for a good reason. The kicker was explaining that I though the bread and wine was actually being turned into blood and flesh. I cannot wait for this book now!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12742651255744413779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67479260413144934602010-06-22T16:47:36.999-04:002010-06-22T16:47:36.999-04:00If I were Christian, this 'test' failure w...If I were Christian, this 'test' failure would not bother me. Here's why: I would simply claim that God was something we are incapable of comprehending. So we make models of God in our religions and each of us gets something right and somethings wrong. But since no human can fully comprehend and get it right, we may as well just worship and pray via one that is acceptable to us. And liking the culture may be a reasonalbe means of chosing which 'wrong' version to use in order to do the praying and worshipping. <br />Let's talk about house cleaning for a minute to understand this concept in a different context. We have vacuums that have bags that you take out and throw away with your dust and that is wasteful and sends it all to the landfill and we have vacuum cleanera that have no bags and just put it into a bin, you can dump it into your compost bin or a garbage can but it is messy and you run the risk of dumping it accidentally onto your floor when you go to empty it. So there is no perfect weay to remove dust but we choose one that is good enough. Using an imperfect way is better than letting it build up.<br />Or let's talk learning chemistry. We had that old model of the rings of electrons and we said that each layer 'wanted' to have a certain number and that is why bonds happened because one electron complemented the gaps in the other or something like that and it isn't exactly how things really are but we can't really comprehend how they really work, so it is a workable useful model to help us understand more than we did before, even if we understand it a bit 'wrong'. <br />So given there is a God and we want to worship him/her out of thankfulness and that we believe hs/she might have some power to direct the universe, we want to meditatively mindfully ask for things, i.e. pray, then any number of versions of that is acceptable, so we go with the one we grew up with or one where we like the people or the architecture or the music. If I beleived in God, it would be okay with me that my version of worship and prayer was no more perfect than all the others. <br />So I think the issue of whether the God cocnept is viable and self-contradictory is more the issue than OTF.goprairiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532311590000341237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-92167924304328855552010-06-22T16:28:19.285-04:002010-06-22T16:28:19.285-04:00John, you know, it's not your outsider's p...John, you know, it's not your outsider's perspective that makes your work worth taking seriously, more seriously than so many of the<a href="http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=7992#more-7992" rel="nofollow">theologically and philosophically inept</a> new atheists.<br /><br />It's that you had a well informed insider's perspective (granted well informed from one set of an evangelical way of doing things).Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83647498904576125652010-06-22T13:41:20.664-04:002010-06-22T13:41:20.664-04:00Maybe somebody could create a new party game an na...Maybe somebody could create a new party game an name it<br /><br /> < Faith-Twister ><br /><br />It could sort of be remodled around this game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twister_(game)<br /><br />And folks could all simply try and see if maybe they can twist and contort themselves enough, to fit into all different types of faiths.Gandolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624178234332819107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10617960857964895922010-06-22T13:07:52.784-04:002010-06-22T13:07:52.784-04:00One Faith Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest-Faith Re...One Faith Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest-Faith Revisited Mk101Gandolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624178234332819107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14753986874813872552010-06-22T12:17:49.604-04:002010-06-22T12:17:49.604-04:00"Boobquake" I got a good chuckle out of..."Boobquake" I got a good chuckle out of that one! <br /><br />Maybe DM would write an endorsement for you! Afterall, he is a prolific author in his own right.Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09484481246432964371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86883917907400509882010-06-22T12:09:32.220-04:002010-06-22T12:09:32.220-04:00You could also entitle it "Boobquake".You could also entitle it "Boobquake".Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-48914444164077096392010-06-22T12:05:26.943-04:002010-06-22T12:05:26.943-04:00oops I thought Joe was talking to me - damn common...oops I thought Joe was talking to me - damn common nameAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00709027260709794894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1189555785754035972010-06-22T11:54:20.373-04:002010-06-22T11:54:20.373-04:00Joe,
I think you may be asking the wrong question...Joe,<br /><br />I think you may be asking the wrong question. If you examine anyone, you will find both good and bad. Those who are more similar to you, you will recognize their good more readily. While John's motivations do matter, his motivations should be considered separately from the truth or goodness or his words or deeds. For example, if a bad person does a good thing, does it change the fundamental nature of that good thing? No, it is a good thing still, just as John's outsider test of faith should be judged on the merits of the test, not his motivation.<br /><br />I think you should take the Outsider Test of Faith and tell us all about. However, it is a lot of work and may not interest you. Let us know!Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09484481246432964371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17145140982985090002010-06-22T10:44:09.675-04:002010-06-22T10:44:09.675-04:00Hey John, Have you thought about writing a book di...Hey John, Have you thought about writing a book discussing the atonement doctrine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10400711288274788392010-06-22T10:33:23.137-04:002010-06-22T10:33:23.137-04:00@joe
I'm not longer a christian, but I don&#...@joe <br /><br />I'm not longer a christian, but I don't want to destroy it or rip it away from others. Many of my good friends [and my wife] are still Christians.<br /><br />I do hope that those who are ready, would consider the OTF. If they take it seriously, they will become atheist/agnostic or they will become very liberal Christians [borg/spong/crossan].<br /><br />I suppose some will "pass" the test and "strengthen" their faith. Even these will have begun to think about it in a different way.<br /><br />I'm not sure if i have pure motives....it's probably a mixture. I do know I would like to recommend this book to all of my religious friends and I know the ones who need it most won't touch it if the title is aggressive.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00709027260709794894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8318797076173066972010-06-22T10:14:54.198-04:002010-06-22T10:14:54.198-04:00Joe, one way to take the OTF is to take the DC Cha...Joe, one way to take the OTF is to take the <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/11/take-debunking-christianity-challenge.html" rel="nofollow">DC Challenge</a>. Come on now, what do you have to lose?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78206567042427688862010-06-22T10:12:57.252-04:002010-06-22T10:12:57.252-04:00For what it's worth I suggest:
"From the...For what it's worth I suggest:<br /><br />"From the Outside: The Outsiders Test for Faith Revisited."Tristan Vickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05348780254008374268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72409951716840959022010-06-22T09:27:39.946-04:002010-06-22T09:27:39.946-04:00John, what is your motive in doing this? Is it a ...John, what is your motive in doing this? Is it a positive or negative motive? Destroy Christianity? Save people from Christianity? Just curious about what is in your heart?<br /><br />JoeJoe Staubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15354614785249175583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-80066561639828972902010-06-22T08:09:18.801-04:002010-06-22T08:09:18.801-04:00It's funny-DM has gone from creepy to predict...It's funny-DM has gone from creepy to predictable and boring!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84125441982195363782010-06-22T08:07:27.283-04:002010-06-22T08:07:27.283-04:00How about "Your Faith: True? Or Just Familia...How about "Your Faith: True? Or Just Familiar?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com