tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post1569008660719296603..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: The Nature and Value of Free WillUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-48291944631223811472007-09-13T10:39:00.000-04:002007-09-13T10:39:00.000-04:00If God exists, then why did he do what he did?Beca...<I>If God exists, then why did he do what he did?<BR/>Because it pleases Him to do so.</I><BR/><BR/>Then god is a prat, and unworthy of the worship of a moral person.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-74798717410739643392007-09-09T21:24:00.000-04:002007-09-09T21:24:00.000-04:00If God exists, then why did he do what he did?Beca...<B>If God exists, then why did he do what he did?</B><BR/>Because it pleases Him to do so.Michael Ejercitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707862691472293497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78854616576267566682007-09-09T02:47:00.000-04:002007-09-09T02:47:00.000-04:00HI John,thanks for that link! That is a lot like ...HI John,<BR/>thanks for that link! That is a lot like what I was planning for my next article, which is sitting my googledocs.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to reference it and provide some references to the material he was discussing, so people can go look it up for themselves.<BR/><BR/>In fact, if i don't stop commenting, then with all else I am committed to this month, I won't get it finished. So I'm done commenting till my next article.<BR/><BR/>see you all soon!<BR/><BR/>Hi Joseph,<BR/>I did see that movie, I thought it was neat. take care!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15674011429085289722007-09-08T19:31:00.000-04:002007-09-08T19:31:00.000-04:00Gordon, I apologize if I gave the impression that ...Gordon, I apologize if I gave the impression that God should intervene to stop all bad choices. Let's say God only intervened to stop a few of the extremely bad ones, then it would be worth it. Where is the glory in a God who affords the grace of free will to a murderer, a rapist, a child molester, to the extreme of a Hitler or Bin Ladden? <BR/><BR/>I personally agree with you that the problem of evil does not in itself disprove a higher power, whom we wish to call God. It does, however, throw a series monkey wrench in the Christian idea of God. So the POE may, in fact, disprove the existence of the God defined in the Bible or by Christian philosophers. <BR/><BR/>And, by the way, wouldn't it be terrible to discover that a God (or gods) existed who had a more primitive view of morality than we do?Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-9645851860657718852007-09-08T14:51:00.000-04:002007-09-08T14:51:00.000-04:00Im not going to say a whole lot, frankly because t...Im not going to say a whole lot, frankly because this issue is simply a terrible one to argue about on a blog. The only thing I do want to address is how there seems to be a current of thought saying "oh well God intervened in that persons free-will, why doesnt he intervene in all". Well, frankly, thats the entire point of grace is it not? I understand the problem of evil very well but persons who are already inclined towards disbelief (or never really questioned a whole lot of the issues anyways, which most American Christians I suspect do not) seem to take it WAY out of proportion. Lets say I completely agree that the problem of evil is unanswerable (im not doing that, but lets suppose); what does it prove? Perhaps our definition of divine goodness would have to be re-evaluated. Thats all. It doesnt prove whether there was a first mover, a providenced people (the Jews) or the ressurection. The closest I have come to losing my faith was over the problem of evil (especially the hiddeness of God question) but once I heard the counter-arguments I realized that they really dont prove a whole lot of anything. It may certainly cast God in a more mysterious light, but it doesnt disprove his existence. <BR/>PS- Again, I dont think the problem of evil actually passes, im just pre-supposing it does.GordonBloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426901390201595020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84207145752532750082007-09-08T12:27:00.000-04:002007-09-08T12:27:00.000-04:00Dillie-O said, "According to the current model lai...Dillie-O said, "According to the current model laid out in the Bible, God is awaiting judgment until the end times for the deeds we've done." Where in the Bible does it say that God is hands-off as far as intervening in human affairs today, the same way that he did in the past (i.e. constantly throughout the Old Testament). I understand the Biblical case for a final judgment (and do appreciate the sentiment), but I am at a loss to understand why God wouldn't stop the murder's knife, especially since the Bible claims he's omnipresent AND omnipotent. <BR/><BR/>Steven Car said, "...why is it <BR/>absurd to demand that God do what the Bible alleges he has already done?" <BR/><BR/>Thank you, Steven. You've made a point for me, though not directly, with that last statement. If the Bible is true record of God's interventions in human affairs AND if it is true that Jesus opened up God's intervention in human lives in an unprecedented way, why is there so much evil in the world today? And why doesn't God intervene to stop the free-will choices of the murders and rapists? After all, Jesus said, if they've thought about doing it, they've already done it in their hearts. Boom! They are convicted in the courtroom of God and we don't have to suffer their devastating affects on our women and children. <BR/><BR/>Lee, as an aside, have you ever seen Minority Report? Phillip K. Dick's story treats the whole free will question in a fascinating way.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86606422809445748382007-09-08T07:07:00.000-04:002007-09-08T07:07:00.000-04:00ALSTON'Theistic scholar William P. Alston argues t...ALSTON<BR/>'Theistic scholar William P. Alston argues that “for all we know, God does sometimes intervene to prevent human agents from doing wicked things they would otherwise have done.”<BR/><BR/>CARR<BR/>God took away that person's real choice?<BR/><BR/>What is Alston's point?<BR/><BR/>People should be allowed to rape children, because if you stopped them, you would be depriving them of their real choice?<BR/><BR/>Tear down all the prisons containing rapists and muderers - they are an abomination in God's sight.<BR/><BR/>When Jesus invited Thomas to put his hands into his wounds, did Thomas have a real choice to harm Jesus by putting a knife into him?<BR/><BR/>Obviously not, because Jesus was invulnerable (like Superman)<BR/><BR/>If God can create a situation where a physical being like the resurrected Jesus can walk the earth immune to any suffering, without turning the people Jesus met into robots, then why is it absurd to demand that God do what the Bible alleges he has already done?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1497478350831357262007-09-08T07:06:00.000-04:002007-09-08T07:06:00.000-04:00Lee, did you say something about the soul? ;-)The ...Lee, did you say something about <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/03/soul-rational-belief.html" REL="nofollow">the soul?</A> ;-)<BR/><BR/>The concept of the soul is a theological one, as you know. The equivalent philosophical concept is the mind. I like asking people to tell me where the mind is. Is it in my knee? :-) Why should it be located in the brain? If we have mind why do we even need a brain?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-35725249844258388682007-09-08T03:01:00.000-04:002007-09-08T03:01:00.000-04:00Hi all,not that it matters but I want to come righ...Hi all,<BR/>not that it matters but I want to come right and say that I am convinced free-will is an illusion as much as god is. we are not being controlled, its just that we cannot possibly do anything we want to due to various limitations. And even if we don't have limitations in some cases, there are biological and psychological mechanisms in place that influence us internally one way or the other.<BR/><BR/>a substance abuser over time will alter the portion of their brain that functions to inhibit, (as shown by fmri) which effectively reduces their ability to say no.<BR/><BR/>These descriptions of free will I see floating around, in order to be viable, would necessitate that we all have an equal ability to make decisions, but it is not the case. Its not the case for more than just substance abusers. These ideas of free will totally neglect the physical nature of the brain, and totally neglect its role in moral decision making.<BR/><BR/>This gets into where the soul is, and how do our decisions on earth get stored for retrieval in heaven. If we are to learn stuff down here, and it is to affect our existence in heaven some way, then there must be a mechanism for storage and retrieval in place for it. And that raises the question of what is it in heaven that is supposed to be mitigated in the moral learning of a child killer or a cannibal?<BR/><BR/>And how is it that some people do not have the ability to feel emotions (psychopaths) and therefore cannot love god? We all know that not loving god gets you into hell yet they are doomed from the beginning.<BR/><BR/>Is this a case for predestination or .......chance?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29037374136623270372007-09-07T15:34:00.000-04:002007-09-07T15:34:00.000-04:00Hmmm, here's my 2 bits joseph.1) According to the ...Hmmm, here's my 2 bits joseph.<BR/><BR/>1) According to the current model laid out in the Bible, God is awaiting judgment until the end times for the deeds we've done. Now in the short of things this sounds like I'm pointing to the "unknown" factor. It may sound cruel to those that have suffered, but it also shows grace to those evil ones that have committed the deed to change their ways before the final "balance" has occurred.<BR/><BR/>2) That's kind of a hard thing to disprove or prove considering the vast number of people on the planet today. Sure there are some people up on TBN telling stories about how God stopped them from pulling the trigger and then they became saved, but how reliable are they?<BR/><BR/>I think I may have 2 disagreements on the definition of free will in this case.<BR/><BR/>1. John says that our free will is already limited to race, gender, metal capacity, etc. But I see free will as the ability to make that choice in the first place. Yes I can't fly, but I still have the ability to say, and act upon, jumping off the third story of my office building, flapping my arms wildly about.<BR/><BR/>2. Free will is a tool, endowed upon us in a neutral nature. I can use my free will to run into a burning house to save somebody, or I can use it to run around on a killing spree. Was it evil to create the gun? Although it kills plenty of kids in the streets today, it also allows people in the wilderness to get food and survive. <BR/><BR/>Was it evil of God to give us the tool of free will? Was it evil of God to create us with the capacity of going either way, good or bad? I don't think you can. Or maybe more appropriately addressed to the topic, I don't think the endowment of a neutral device can be judged as an evil act, saying that a good God doesn't exist, thus saying the God of the Bible doesn't exist.<BR/><BR/>...er or something like that. 8^DDillie-Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17248916127845828772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89780751758377319862007-09-07T14:09:00.000-04:002007-09-07T14:09:00.000-04:00If I may add to my previous comment, I want to dra...If I may add to my previous comment, I want to draw attention to a couple points John made in his article that I hope will not be lost on the theists among us. I have two points I'd like to call attention to after each excerpt: <BR/><BR/>John wrote: "It does absolutely no good at all to have free will and not also have the ability to exercise it. Most women do not have the upper body strength needed to stop a would-be attacker, while some people don’t have the rational capacity needed to spot a con-artist. I could not be a world-class athlete even if I wanted to, for instance. Our free will is limited by our age, race, gender, mental capacity, financial ability, geographical placement, and historical location to do what we want. Both our genes and our social environment restrict what choices are available for us to make. We do not have as much free will as people think."<BR/><BR/>1. I have said before that the Christian argument about free will is flawed because it affords the utmost respect for the free will of Hitler and Saddam, but ignores the free will of the helpless. If free will is so important to the Christian God, then he should be protecting it on both sides, shouldn't he? Why does the free will of the evil trump the free will of the good and innocent? I've never heard anyone address this objection. <BR/><BR/>John also said: "Theists should have no objection to God intervening when someone chooses to do horrible deeds, especially since theists also believe God can restrict our choices just like he purportedly hardened Pharaoh’s heart against Moses."<BR/><BR/>2. The other point that John made is that we have Biblical stories where God actually DOES intervene to stop someone's free-will choice (or to even divinely influence their own will!). So why isn't he doing it today? We could really use his help (if he cares or exists at all)! <BR/><BR/>Will someone from the evangelical Christian camp kindly address these two points?Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7785732011206458712007-09-07T13:52:00.000-04:002007-09-07T13:52:00.000-04:00This is so clear and so thorough. I wish I could e...This is so clear and so thorough. I wish I could express what I am feeling at this moment--I've been searching and struggling for so many years--I do not have the words to express the gratitude I am feeling for places like this on the web, for the authors who have become such powerful voices for me. Maybe an image--don't know how many of you have read the Peter Wimsey books by Dorothy Sayers, but in one of the novels, Busman's Honeymoon, the two main characters are talking about poetry, and the ability of those gifted that way to 'ease the pain' caused by not being able to express the inexpressible. <BR/><BR/>That's what these sites and the authors I've mentioned have represented to me--you have all eased the pain of the thoughts and questions that I have either been unable to put into words or unwilling to share because of a lack of safety. <BR/><BR/>I simply cannot believe any more. I found myself thinking last night about what would change in me if God was out of the picture, and within the limits of my own being, it was all good news. Where I hit the wall, however, is what do I with this in all my relationships with other people. My guess is the best thing to do is to simply be with this change for a while, and see what opens up. I do need to talk more openly with my husband about this. <BR/><BR/>The other thing that has occurred to me is the unlikeliness of avoiding the same kinds of fruitless discussions that seem to come with the territory; I'm reading a book, Like Rolling Uphill by Narciso, in which she states something to the effect of there appears to be a basic inability on the part of 'true believers' to be able to even think, let alone discuss these questions without simply falling back on their same basic assertions. It really is like speaking an entirely different language. <BR/><BR/>Thank you John, Lee, Joseph, and all others who give so generously of your time here. This has been a very encouraging place to be. A spacious place, and safe.Stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00677236569524940980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40182634146982048462007-09-07T13:20:00.000-04:002007-09-07T13:20:00.000-04:00Excellent article, John. Your argument is air-tig...Excellent article, John. Your argument is air-tight. This is exactly the reasoning that led me away from Christianity. The problem of evil is an insurmountable problem to Christian theology.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.com