tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post1165035051572091411..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: "When Our Vices Get the Better of Us"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16293860159057660252007-10-18T16:29:00.000-04:002007-10-18T16:29:00.000-04:00"Have you considered that Atheism may be a delusio..."Have you considered that Atheism may be a delusion that we have no control over?"<BR/><BR/>Yes I have considered atheists to be delusional pyschos;) (sorry I couldn't resist the invite) You could give the argument a shot, who knows.<BR/><BR/>I did break a finger in my right hand and had to do all those things left handed. This drove me to do things as much as possible with my left hand even after the bone healed. It comes in real handy to drive and shoot left handed in a bball game. I am still awkward for most things left handed, but I am left eye dominant so shooting is a must.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-50724256580596491572007-10-18T08:55:00.000-04:002007-10-18T08:55:00.000-04:00HI rich,one more brain exercise that I think is fu...HI rich,<BR/>one more brain exercise that I think is fun, is to switch hands. Eat with the other hand, drink with the other hand, write, toss a wad of paper in the air, etc with the 'other hand'. This forces the brain to compensate and build connections that support the improved use of the other hand. You never know when it may come in handy......also, puns and creativity are important as well, and keeping a sense of humor.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-35049445823928482652007-10-18T08:32:00.000-04:002007-10-18T08:32:00.000-04:00Hi rich,thank you, that was nice article. I've he...Hi rich,<BR/>thank you, that was nice article. I've heard about it in a podcast. One theory is that it is related to plasticity in the brain, where as the brain is tasked, in a non-overly stressful way, it uses its ability to borrow from other places and rewire itself to meet the need. If the person is sedentary, and relatively cognitivley lazy, the brain has no need to seek out new resources so there is no compensation made for the decaying portions. <BR/><BR/>get 30 min of exercise 5 times a week, eat plenty of fruits and veggies, nuts and grains, do puzzles or debate religion. It'll keep you fresh for years to come!<BR/><BR/><B><I>So you don't think that Jesus looking you in the eye would impede free will? 1/3 of the hosts of heaven rebelling in God's presence leaves us with 2/3 that didn't.<BR/></B></I><BR/>Thats not what i said, I said that you would have the choice whether he looked you in the eye or continued hiding, and in the case that you were more motivated out of self interest He would know and we would be toast anyway. I say it doesn't make a difference based on the tri-omni superpowers. But it does make a difference in the fact that doubters like me, whom were evidently predisposed with this way of thinking would have our doubts satisfied and be able to make a choice based on the limited reasoning ability we have at our disposal. <BR/><BR/>Have you considered that Atheism may be a delusion that we have no control over? Consider if, like the psychopath, the part of our brain that is needed to believe with little empirical evidence is damaged due to something like the concussion I had when I played football or an undetected stroke. Or that we have psychological damage that of which therapy is needed to overcome, like those phobia therapies that work so well. <BR/><BR/>The delusion argument is one that can go both ways, so I think it is an argument whose time has come. And I'm considering whether I can use it to show that salvation or christianity wouldn't make a difference one way or the other. Since we were given imperfect tools to use to worship with, If we don't get it here on earth while thats all we have to use, then we would be saved anyway, as you say, because it is likely that such a decision to deny god is obviously crazy. What do you think?<BR/>I like it. Everybody wins! And the inter-religion wars can come to an end.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-56125735877542090002007-10-18T05:53:00.000-04:002007-10-18T05:53:00.000-04:00Here's oneI hope the link works cause I suck at t...<A HREF="http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/239171/" REL="nofollow">Here's one</A><BR/><BR/>I hope the link works cause I suck at the html tag thing. That's unfortunately the newspaper article but I didn't have time yet to look up the research.<BR/><BR/>"why is it that we have to rely on scientists, most of which don't ascribe to a belief in a god, to come up with things that improve our quality of life?"<BR/>I wouldn't say we have to rely on scientists but we do frequently, I don't actually have a problem with science at all, I like to learn from all sources, even heathens like yourself;) As far as this particular article goes, this is something we are frequently reminded of by our church leaders. That is keep active and set goals, of coarse spiritual goals, and always keep learning and studying. Basically keeping an active brain. No one said this would keep you from getting alzheimer's, but it is an example of following a taught principle that has a benefit to your health. <BR/><BR/>"So now I'll grant that I can learn from a bad decision, but point out that it is not exclusive to morality, and therefore not a good candidate for a defense on this point."<BR/><BR/>Actually that is what I was after, that we can learn from bad choices and it doesn't need to be exclusive to morality to be a true principle does it?<BR/><BR/>"Now I say designing addiction into us, sets a precedent that means that it is not unreasonable to say that jesus should appear in front of us to allow us to make the decision in person."<BR/><BR/>So you don't think that Jesus looking you in the eye would impede free will? 1/3 of the hosts of heaven rebelling in God's presence leaves us with 2/3 that didn't. Of those 2/3, how many now choose to not follow Christ when he's not visibly looking over their shoulder? I like sports analogies. When choosing a team I want the guy that is a self motivator, does work without me hovering over him constantly. Not the guy who pretends to be all that unless I'm not there. Then he is lazy, screwing off, as long as no one sees its OK.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"I know this was a 'quip', but honestly go volunteer in the sudan for a little while and I think you will appreciate the efforts of your government more."<BR/><BR/>I have a great appreciation for our government, even as bad as it gets we're still in good shape. I ran out of time for now but I will continue, same bat time same bat channel.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-56999029176400735802007-10-18T00:00:00.000-04:002007-10-18T00:00:00.000-04:00Hi Rich,welcome back. I have a couple of article...Hi Rich,<BR/>welcome back. <BR/><B><I> I have a couple of articles to link to studies that show how we can avoid age mental health issues that will relate to your series. I want to link to the actual studies and not the newspaper article.<BR/></B></I><BR/>cool, but, why is it that we have to rely on scientists, most of which don't ascribe to a belief in a god, to come up with things that improve our quality of life? I would think in a world with a real god, all the scientists should believe in god because it is so obvious, and they would thank him for their success.<BR/><BR/><B><I>"Suffering to gain righteousness is one of them. "<BR/>That depends, are you suffering as a direct result of a bad choice? If so will that be likely to help you make the better choice next time? Not counting natural disasters here.<BR/></B></I><BR/>Are you saying that anytime I learn from a bad choice It is a direct result of Gods interaction or something he set up? I hope you are because that would infer that he set up the rules of logic. And the law of non-contradiction. don't get me started.<BR/>So now I'll grant that I can learn from a bad decision, but point out that it is not exclusive to morality, and therefore not a good candidate for a defense on this point. I can learn my way to the doctors office using google earth and few wrong turns. We learn with or without god. Do you know what pre-natal vitamins are used for? One of the things they are used for is to ensure the environment in the mothers womb is adequate for the normal development of the baby. Many babies are born with spina-bifida because of a lack of folic acid. This is a result of bad decisions of the mother that aren't necessarily moral, just uninformed, not available or negligent. This baby starts its life at the first nano-second suffering. The eventual addict makes bad choices sure, but what is the point of 'designing' a body that make them crave it over time? This impedes freewill that religious people need to justify gods actions in defense of more than just this. I just got challenged on my puppy analogy because jesus coming back would inhibit our freewill. Now I say designing addiction into us, sets a precedent that means that it is not unreasonable to say that jesus should appear in front of us to allow us to make the decision in person.<BR/><BR/><B><I>Excluding the medical profession, I think government missed the mark.<BR/></B></I><BR/>I know this was a 'quip', but honestly go volunteer in the sudan for a little while and I think you will appreciate the efforts of your government more.<BR/><BR/><B><I>"but if we follow the principles in the bible, we logically are impeding gods will by trying to better ourselves and minimize suffering."<BR/></B></I><BR/>Congrats, you found the easter egg. I knew that was a stinky piece of rhetoric after I wrote it but left it in anyway. I concede that point.<BR/>But honeslty, that is what this is all about isn't it? The dissonance is in having to reconcile why a god would design this situation which requires we take some action to remediate it, to the unfortunate detriment of people that are slaughtered by governments and babies born with spinabifida due to the actions of their mothers of which there really is no way to reconcile it, and children whose development is stunted as a result of the stress of living in abusive homes, etc. <BR/><BR/>The freewill of one impedes the freewill of another, disproportionately, and inequitably, and we are born with a poor mechanism to play the game with. If we lose the game we are toast, forever. I don't like the game, and I don't think it logically follows that a tri-omni god would put something together like this. I do however believe that it logically follows that it would be the result of a human perspective/viewpoint and biological trial and error. I say that the viewpoint is wrong because as i have shown whether you want to call it sabotage or not, we are not built to reason, we are built to survive by making hasty decisions that depend on something like the precautionary principle. Its better to get away from a lion than it is to take the time to figure out how to overpower it. Introduce a community of humans all working on the same problem, debating the best way, and you might have a hope. They might get some meat, like it, learn from it, and do better than the poor saps that go it alone, or can't get along etc, etc, etc,<BR/>They learn through trial and error how to reason their way into coming up with a trap. We learn to reason our way into coming up with the scientific method, we can reason our way into dealing with uncertainty without the need of a spiritual teddybear like god. <BR/><BR/>I could expand on this more but I have to go.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-53771373920347062172007-10-17T21:33:00.000-04:002007-10-17T21:33:00.000-04:00Hi Lee, See what happens when I take a couple of d...Hi Lee,<BR/> See what happens when I take a couple of days off! Not to get off on semantics, but what you call sabotage, I call having our own set of trials to overcome. I don't want to squabble over words so lets just say we are agreed that we have a makeup that makes us desire certain things over others. I have a couple of articles to link to studies that show how we can avoid age mental health issues that will relate to your series. I want to link to the actual studies and not the newspaper article.<BR/><BR/>OK, back to the task at hand. I'm behind a day or 2 but I'll catch up later. <BR/><BR/>"Suffering to gain righteousness is one of them. " <BR/>That depends, are you suffering as a direct result of a bad choice? If so will that be likely to help you make the better choice next time? Not counting natural disasters here.<BR/><BR/>"The whole medical profession, and Government was established, among other reasons, to ease suffering"<BR/><BR/>Excluding the medical profession, I think government missed the mark.<BR/><BR/>"but if we follow the principles in the bible, we logically are impeding gods will by trying to better ourselves and minimize suffering."<BR/><BR/>I missed those principles. The good samaritan was about increased suffering? Love thy neighbor, don't lie, steal, covet, honor parents, those do seem pretty damaging principles. I know your counter slew of examples, but where does the bible say that we are required to kill babies and rape for our salvation?Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63296716933035234462007-10-17T15:43:00.000-04:002007-10-17T15:43:00.000-04:00I am sorry I have been away, and I don't have time...I am sorry I have been away, and I don't have time now to answer all of the questions (I hope to do so later), I want to say that I'm not on here to pick fights or to fight. I'm here to learn and to share my own thoughts. <BR/><BR/>I will say I am certain of what I believe in, but I also know that it is certainty in something unseen and it is certainty held by an individual who is not fallible. I have no doubt about the object of my faith, only in my ability to understand perfectly that object. <BR/><BR/>I am not the Holy Spirit. If I were then God wouldnt' be God, I would be. Thus, I can only pray that the Holy Spirit will work in your life. <BR/><BR/>As far as religion and all the different ones... well, are each of you getting on here saying that you all have the exact same views? I doubt you would. You are human and have your own views of your surroundings. Difference of interpretations and practices just shows humanity for what it is. It doesn't answer whether there is a God who exists who is unchanging. You keep attacking things that don't demonstrate the falsity of God's existence while trying to use your understanding of who God is to do so. I find that interesting. <BR/><BR/>Thank you for your patience with me as I become acquainted with a blog and a conversation that has been going on for some time without me. It needs me not, but I appreciate your welcome. I look forward to growing as a result of participating. By God's grace I will.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-60188165744199770922007-10-17T14:59:00.000-04:002007-10-17T14:59:00.000-04:001. You do believe ripping babies out of tummies is...<I>1. You do believe ripping babies out of tummies is evil. Are you anti-abortion?</I><BR/><BR/>I am staunchly anti-<B>forced</B> abortion.<BR/><BR/><I>2. If you are pro-choice, then it could be because you believe there are circumstances where the greater good is accomplished by pulling the baby out of the tummy. Given that, could it be that a God who knows everything (and we clearly don't as you admit in the later portions of your comment) might have a greater good in mind with regard to His requests of Israel?</I><BR/><BR/>No, I am staunchly anti-forced abortion, as is <B>just about every pro-choice person in existence!</B> I do not believe that a circumstance could realistically exist that would justify forcibly removing a fetus from its mother against her wishes.<BR/><BR/><I>I will say that I believe God has revealed Himself. Some choose by faith to believe that and follow Him; others do not. Creation, if created, is a pretty good revelation of the Creator. Jesus is great revelation. Changed lives are as well.</I><BR/><BR/>But is that belief justified by evidence? Do you have a good reason to believe that people who do not follow your flavor of Christianity are acting in bad faith? Do you deny that non-religious things can change lives as well? Communism was a non-religious idea that changed many lives for the worse--does that mean communism must be true? What facts about Jesus that are justified by evidence serve as revelation of a Creator?<BR/><BR/><I>As to science and legal system, yes, I am. I also am a lawyer by training. Empiricism is just the creation of man's mind. If that is all faith is, as you would believe, then what would be the difference?</I><BR/><BR/>Empiricism works, as demonstrated by the computer you are using. Try to transmit your messages to me using the Holy Spirit. I'll wait...who am I kidding. <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/10/where-does-your-faith-really-lie.html" REL="nofollow">You won't even bother to try.</A> When it comes to anything real, you rely upon empiricism because this belief is justified by observable fact. Can you say the same for your religion?<BR/><BR/><I>I agree with your concluding paragraph about being wrong being authorized. I have no problem with doubt or error. They lead to a greater understanding of the Truth when we keep seeking it.</I><BR/><BR/>Then you don't claim to know your God with any certainty? If so, <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/09/fallibility-of-human-experience.html" REL="nofollow">how do you justify your certainty?</A> If not, what use is your revelation in the search for truth?Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16541391008407173472007-10-17T14:05:00.000-04:002007-10-17T14:05:00.000-04:00Bryan:At one point you say "It seems that all of c...Bryan:<BR/>At one point you say "It seems that all of creation speaks of its Creator."<BR/><BR/>Let's accept this, <I>arguendo</I>. Okay, you now -- to use a legal analogy, obviously I am not calling "Creation" a 'crime' -- have a 'coroner's inquest' verdict that a crime has been committed.<BR/>Now you have three more steps to go before you can get the verdict you want.<BR/><BR/>First, prove that the 'Creator' is 'theistic' -- interacts with his creation -- rather than 'deistic' -- sits back and merely watches what happens.<BR/><BR/>Second, prove that the 'theistic God' you are 'prosecuting' is the same as the Christian God, and not one of the hundreds of other candidates proposed for the job. (Oh, and just for the fun of it, imagine a theistic God worshipped on another planet, for whom that planet, say Mizar 7, is the focus of his attention, and not Sol 3. Any proof that this Mizarcentric God is less likely than the geocentric one you choose as your candidate.)<BR/><BR/>Okay, now prove your interpretation of him and his message is the right one, and not the thousands of others that have been put forth -- and remember there were many variants of pre-Nicean Christianity that were declared false. You sure that the Council of Nicea got it right and not the Marcionites, the Ebionites, the various Christian Gnostics, the followers of Origen, the Arians, the Monophysites?<BR/><BR/>THEN deal with the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox -- if you can ever figure out what <I>they</I> mean, something so far that is beyond me -- the Calvinists, the United Methodists, the Metropolitan Community Church, and -- hi, Jason -- the Christadelphians etc, etc. all of which claim their interpretation is the right one. (Don't forget Muslims, who worship the same God, consider Jesus as a Prophet, but deny his Divinity and think Christians just got his message screwed up.)<BR/><BR/>Okay, your turn.Prup (aka Jim Benton)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08376467128665482055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72324386090673620872007-10-17T12:26:00.000-04:002007-10-17T12:26:00.000-04:00Hi Bryan,you're a lawyer eh? ;-) no jokes i promi...Hi Bryan,<BR/>you're a lawyer eh? ;-) no jokes i promise. I do lsat prep tests for fun so I have a great respect for the law profession, when its done right! I'm honored to be debating a lawyer.<BR/><BR/><B><I> 1. You do believe ripping babies out of tummies is evil. Are you anti-abortion?<BR/></B></I> what does this have to do with anything? this is getting off track.<BR/><BR/><B><I> 2. If you are pro-choice, then it could be because you believe there are circumstances where the greater good is accomplished by pulling the baby out of the tummy. Given that, could it be that a God who knows everything (and we clearly don't as you admit in the later portions of your comment) might have a greater good in mind with regard to His requests of Israel?<BR/></B></I><BR/>god can do anything can he not? But he can't figure out a better way than ordering his henchmen to cut babies out of mothers tummies to create a greater good? You are putting limits on your god. That is the only way out of this. Or god didn't order it.<BR/><BR/><B><I> 3. I really don't get how your dog story illustrates your point. I will say that I believe God has revealed Himself. Some choose by faith to believe that and follow Him; others do not. Creation, if created, is a pretty good revelation of the Creator. Jesus is great revelation. Changed lives are as well.<BR/></B></I><BR/>well, the opportunity presented itself. I made a choice. It was the right choice. It was made to do something completely altruistic. If jesus stepped in front of me one day, I have the choice. But this time the choice is to do the right thing and get a reward. Which is the more honorable scenario? I would not be put under duress for either one. If I chose Jesus for selfishness, he'd know and I'd be toast, If I chose Jesus because I realized how stupid I'd been, then he'd know and i'd get my wings (so to speak), just like it is now.<BR/><BR/><B><I> 4. As to science and legal system, yes, I am. I also am a lawyer by training. Empiricism is just the creation of man's mind. If that is all faith is, as you would believe, then what would be the difference?<BR/> </B></I><BR/>I'm not sure I get your point, but you have to grant my point in the other comment. Faith in god and 'apparent faith' in the legal system and the scientific method are not equal. Faith and empiricism, if both are creations of mans mind, follow a different process.<BR/><BR/>Gotta go. see ya much later.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81548393293608475382007-10-17T11:49:00.000-04:002007-10-17T11:49:00.000-04:00I must be a master of red herrings, because that h...I must be a master of red herrings, because that has been the most common response to my comments. Fish is not my favorite food, although I do wish I liked it better. <BR/><BR/>1. You do believe ripping babies out of tummies is evil. Are you anti-abortion?<BR/><BR/>2. If you are pro-choice, then it could be because you believe there are circumstances where the greater good is accomplished by pulling the baby out of the tummy. Given that, could it be that a God who knows everything (and we clearly don't as you admit in the later portions of your comment) might have a greater good in mind with regard to His requests of Israel?<BR/><BR/>3. I really don't get how your dog story illustrates your point. I will say that I believe God has revealed Himself. Some choose by faith to believe that and follow Him; others do not. Creation, if created, is a pretty good revelation of the Creator. Jesus is great revelation. Changed lives are as well.<BR/><BR/>4. As to science and legal system, yes, I am. I also am a lawyer by training. Empiricism is just the creation of man's mind. If that is all faith is, as you would believe, then what would be the difference?<BR/><BR/>5. I agree with your concluding paragraph about being wrong being authorized. I have no problem with doubt or error. They lead to a greater understanding of the Truth when we keep seeking it.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37068958899233039872007-10-17T11:10:00.000-04:002007-10-17T11:10:00.000-04:00Hi Bryan,this is red herring but i'll play anyway....Hi Bryan,<BR/>this is red herring but i'll play anyway.<BR/><BR/><B><I> 1. Why do so many point to the OT as evidence not to believe in God when they purport not to believe in the OT in the first place?<BR/></B></I><BR/>because the bible is supposed to be real is it not? Then if its real, why is it not internally consistent, and why is it ok for god to say he wants the babies ripped out of the mothers tummies?<BR/><BR/> <B><I> 2. Why do so many point to the OT as evidence that God is a butthead and others point to the OT as evidence that God is a God of love and mercy?<BR/></B></I><BR/>because they overlook the babies ripped out of mothers tummies parts?<BR/><BR/><BR/> <B><I> 1. If God if Who He says He is and He delivered the evidence so clearly that we couldn't deny it, then wouldn't He be forcing us to choose Him?<BR/></B></I><BR/>thanks for asking. I love it when people ask me this. No. Heres a little story. I was walking by a trash can and heard some puppies whining. I looked inside and there they were. I had help rescuing them and two got adopted and the other one is called bertha and i see her a couple of times a week. I was not compelled to save those puppies, I did it because it was the right thing to do. If god showed himself, I'd treat him just like I did those puppies and make a decision to do the right thing.<BR/><BR/> <B><I> 2. Isn't the premise of God's revelation that it requires faith? So, why is leaving something to believe in rather than forcing an absolute seen as "bad"? Even the scientific method has a component of faith as does the legal system.<BR/></B></I><BR/>Are you seriously trying to compare the amount of faith you have to have to believe in god to the scientific method or the legal system, both rooted in empiricism? There is no comparison, one demands faith and the other requires faith only isofar as you can't find enough evidence to be sure. And in any case, any faith that is required by the Legal system or the scientific method is supported by grounds, warrant, principle, logical inference or precedent based on any of the previous. <BR/>And why is leaving something to believe in bad? Its not if there is some data, evidence, principle, warrant, etc to base it on. If not, then it could just as well be fraud.<BR/><BR/><B><I> 3. It sounds as though your god is science. That is where you place your faith. Ultimately, that means your god is our (humanity's) ability to understand the cosmos. Is that fair?<BR/></B></I><BR/>no. because you are playing with semantics. I don't have a god, I have process of coming to know things, and then when I get a warm fuzzy about them, I remember that I may be wrong and keep my eye out. Being wrong is authorized, as is changing my mind. Both are necessary to get to the truth.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39495773623313303482007-10-17T10:26:00.000-04:002007-10-17T10:26:00.000-04:001. If God if Who He says He is and He delivered t...1. If God if Who He says He is and He delivered the evidence so clearly that we couldn't deny it, then wouldn't He be forcing us to choose Him? <BR/><BR/>2. Isn't the premise of God's revelation that it requires faith? So, why is leaving something to believe in rather than forcing an absolute seen as "bad"? Even the scientific method has a component of faith as does the legal system. <BR/><BR/>3. It sounds as though your god is science. That is where you place your faith. Ultimately, that means your god is our (humanity's) ability to understand the cosmos. Is that fair?Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-82962431625770730662007-10-17T10:22:00.000-04:002007-10-17T10:22:00.000-04:001. Why do so many point to the OT as evidence not...1. Why do so many point to the OT as evidence not to believe in God when they purport not to believe in the OT in the first place?<BR/><BR/>2. Why do so many point to the OT as evidence that God is a butthead and others point to the OT as evidence that God is a God of love and mercy?Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86015467072942306892007-10-17T10:09:00.000-04:002007-10-17T10:09:00.000-04:00Hi Bryan,ok, maybe I was a little hasty, maybe not...Hi Bryan,<BR/>ok, maybe I was a little hasty, maybe not.<BR/><BR/><B><I>1. Where did I argue God hides?<BR/>2. Does the fact that we have limited knowledge and limited vision mean God hides? He is the omni-, not us.<BR/>3. If we are poorly designed, who or what is the designer?<BR/>4. Does the fact Christians or any humans struggle with their flesh really indicate a negative conclusion about their Designer, assuming there is one?<BR/></B></I><BR/>1. Doesn't the need for faith, come from the fact that there isn't enough compelling evidence to prove gods existence? god could deliver the proof if he wanted to, couldn't he? Doesn't that a support a presumption that he is 'hiding'?<BR/>2. Yes it means he's hiding. If we look and don't find it, then it is not obvious. It has the intelligence to know we are looking and could show itself.<BR/>3. we aren't designed we happend this way from trial and error in biology and the most successful schemes had offspring.<BR/>4. yes. On the grounds that I listed in my previous comments. It is needless suffering. We aren't talking about a skin rash, we are talking about things like childrens growth being stunted due to stress of living in an abusive household. Talk about adding insult to injury, and on kids to boot!<BR/><BR/><B><I>Finally, the legal analogy isn't an analogy to God. It is an analogy to faith. </B></I><BR/><BR/>I understood that and cut to the hidden premise, we have no other choice than to have faith in a legal system that uses defeasible reasoning, but god is tri-omni, and should not require faith. The whole faith thing is a flawed principle that doesn't work anywhere else.<BR/><BR/>You place your faith in god denying the overwhelming evidence that it is false, faulty principles and all. At least the law system admits it has problems. If that were the case with god, I could probably believe, but not honor on the ground that he was an absolute butt-head in the old testament.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22156342787046742062007-10-17T09:44:00.000-04:002007-10-17T09:44:00.000-04:00I think we all worship a god one way or the other....<I>I think we all worship a god one way or the other.</I><BR/><BR/>And how do you justify this belief? I do not worship a god. I do not believe gods exist. I would need to be presented evidence that a god existed, and also evidence that this god was worth worshipping in order to get me to worship.<BR/><BR/><I>Shygetz asks me what wouldn't be evidnece of my religion (i don't have a religion in my opinion, but using his terms), I could ask him the same. How does he explain each of those things (Yes, I'm really asking Shygetz, not rhetorically)?</I><BR/><BR/>How do I explain each of what things? You need to be specific so I can answer your question.Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77486120676774399482007-10-17T09:42:00.000-04:002007-10-17T09:42:00.000-04:00Lee, you are presuming a lot upon me, perhaps base...Lee, you are presuming a lot upon me, perhaps based on many discussions with many others. I will ask some questions because your comments raise many in my finite mind. <BR/><BR/>1. Where did I argue God hides?<BR/>2. Does the fact that we have limited knowledge and limited vision mean God hides? He is the omni-, not us.<BR/>3. If we are poorly designed, who or what is the designer?<BR/>4. Does the fact Christians or any humans struggle with their flesh really indicate a negative conclusion about their Designer, assuming there is one?<BR/><BR/>Finally, the legal analogy isn't an analogy to God. It is an analogy to faith. We place faith in our legal system and in its conclusions even though we don't know everything. Sometimes more evidence comes out and proves it wrong; sometimes it proves it more likely to be true. I have faith in God. I do not believe anyone will ever be able to prove conclusively that God doesn't exist. I also don't think I can prove conclusively that He does, but I place my faith in Him nonetheless.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8133815646068568512007-10-17T09:18:00.000-04:002007-10-17T09:18:00.000-04:00Hi Bryan,a couple of things. The analogy to the la...Hi Bryan,<BR/>a couple of things. <BR/>The analogy to the law system breaks because we all are not 'tri-omni'. God being 'tri-omni' should be held to a higher standard, as I understand he demands.<BR/><BR/>The principle that god 'hides' is silly. He should be an undeniable part of our existence to give us the honest chance of deciding to follow or not. To enable a clear choice between religions. If he did that, there wouldn't be any other religions would there? An he would lose a lot less souls, which should ultimately trouble him less shouldn't it?<BR/><BR/>You brought up evidence of the fall not me. I say we have always been this way, and since that is true, if there is god, he handicapped us from the start and sabotaged us to be more likely to make bad decisions and get hooked into addictions. If you say that is why we need god, then you need to go to some AA meetings and sit in there long enough to see someone fall out with yellow skin, then ask yourself, did this guy have an honest chance to avoid this? Ask yourself, if god works in their lives, then why do they need the meetings to stay sober? Why can't they just stay sober and go to church? They can't because they have an addiction, whether physical or psychological, their brain needs to be 'rewired' with drugs and or talk therapy and God can't handle it.<BR/><BR/>ask yourself why people are wracked with grief and despair through depression and commit suicide. Depression is more prevalent than heart disease or diabetes. Why is the incident of depression disproportional? Some people don't get it, or only get it lightly. Christians get depressed and have to take medicine just like everyone else. God doesn't help them get over it. Thats not evidence of a fall, thats evidence of a poor design. Evidence of trial and error over time.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-74285718100152045312007-10-17T08:55:00.000-04:002007-10-17T08:55:00.000-04:00I'm not anti-intellectual, Lee and Shygetz, but I ...I'm not anti-intellectual, Lee and Shygetz, but I was trying to get past all of the details to the ultimate point - the one that involves faith. Of course circumstances usher us beyond blind faith to something more. But one of the biggest problems facing every human is that our ability to see clearly is limited (in all realms, whether involving spirituality issues or otherwise) and we often have to make a step of faith.<BR/><BR/>This happens every day in courts of law. Decisions are made based on evidence, sometimes all of it circumstantial. As a result, there are many times when it appears that something has been proved true beyond a reasonable doubt. However, with more clear scientific evidence today than even 20 years ago we have now to release innocent men and women. Or, and I know there is disagreement on this, but many believe OJ Simpson was guilty. He was found not guilty. <BR/><BR/>Ultimately, the jury's finding in cases doesn't make it Truth. It is a probability. One must place faith in the legal system. One must place faith in a god. <BR/><BR/>I think we all worship a god one way or the other. Shygetz asks me what wouldn't be evidnece of my religion (i don't have a religion in my opinion, but using his terms), I could ask him the same. How does he explain each of those things (Yes, I'm really asking Shygetz, not rhetorically)?<BR/><BR/>As for Adam and Eve, Lee, I can be "agnostic" and it not change Who God Is. Were they real individuals? Was there six literal days? Etc. ad nauseum. How God reveals Himself and what HE says about humanity in those three chapters of the bible is much more interesting than debating the literal versus the allegorical.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-58660811182858382232007-10-17T02:02:00.000-04:002007-10-17T02:02:00.000-04:00Hi Bryan, one other thing I want to point out. If...Hi Bryan, <BR/>one other thing I want to point out. If these are evidence of the fall, then it would infer that they didn't exist prior. <BR/><BR/>When did the fall occur, can you point to a period in time when it may have happened? Any idea when and where Adam and Eve popped up? The bible describes Iraq as the place based on the rivers it mentions. That would mean sometime after we came out of africa in evolutionary terms. Got any data on this?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57348476709848828872007-10-16T23:25:00.000-04:002007-10-16T23:25:00.000-04:00Hi Bryan,simply believing on faith can lead you an...Hi Bryan,<BR/>simply believing on faith can lead you anywhere, to anything, into gullibility. Where do you draw the line? Where do you differentiate your beliefs with any other Hindu, buddhist, muslim or jew?<BR/><BR/>The line can be drawn with evidence. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure you have evidences for your faith, but are you sure they are unique to <I>your</I> faith or are they the same evidences the other religions point to? <BR/><BR/>How do you decide between them? I'll bet you decide based on the factors in your environment such as your parents, your friends, your community and your country.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-45241529537374739342007-10-16T21:15:00.000-04:002007-10-16T21:15:00.000-04:00I can't think of anything because I believe it, al...I can't think of anything because I believe it, although I wouldn't call it my religion. It seems that all of creation speaks of its Creator. It's called faith, and it's fairly simple.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43197383933772577012007-10-16T17:02:00.000-04:002007-10-16T17:02:00.000-04:00Seems like evidence of the fallen nature.And if we...<I>Seems like evidence of the fallen nature.</I><BR/><BR/>And if we were all goodness and light, it would be evidence of God's hand in our creation. If a man is healed it's evidence of God's divine mercy, and if he is not healed it's evidence of God's divine wisdom. If a man is saved it's evidence of God's divine grace, and if he is damned it's evidence of God's divine judgement.<BR/><BR/>What possible thing would NOT be evidence for your religion, bryan?Shygetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12587529149916263563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75962566854186503122007-10-16T15:26:00.000-04:002007-10-16T15:26:00.000-04:00Seems like evidence of the fallen nature.Seems like evidence of the fallen nature.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-79370189747276245232007-10-15T12:12:00.000-04:002007-10-15T12:12:00.000-04:00Okay, my bad here - I am woefully unable to commun...Okay, my bad here - I am woefully unable to communicate faithfulness in writing.<BR/><BR/>I guess Jesus did say that the best evidence of His existance is in how believers love one another which routinely includes forgiveness, mercy and reconciliation when we trespass against one another). <BR/><BR/>At any rate, I wasn't fully able to understand either until the veil of indictment was lifted from my perspective. <BR/><BR/>The best to you Lee, I enjoy your thoughtfulness in commenting here. MMMManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.com