tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post116275659842248440..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: An unexpected journey to the truth part 2Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38523727390169980382007-06-11T18:24:00.000-04:002007-06-11T18:24:00.000-04:00Thanks for sharing Sherri! That Christian group is...Thanks for sharing Sherri! That Christian group is a cult. Glad you saw fit to leave it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39729086451278087272007-06-09T01:16:00.000-04:002007-06-09T01:16:00.000-04:00My name is Sherri. Thank you for posting your dec...My name is Sherri. Thank you for posting your deconversion story. I too was a member of the ICOC and left in March 2003. I was in it for 11yrs. After leaving that cult I went on my search for a new church. I got involved with Dr. John Piper's church for about a year. After dealing with too many triggers relating to the ICOC experience I left and took a break from chruch, but remained a Christian.<BR/><BR/> In 2006 I started to allow myself to investigate some of the questions I had about the bible. At first I read from the Christian apologetics point of veiw, but found that my questions were not really being answered. Then I started to read from the likes of Bart Ehrman and the myth of the bible began to unravel. <BR/><BR/> I finally rejected the Christian myth in July 2006! It's been quite the emotional rollercoaster ride! I still wanted a relationship with God. Issues of the afterlife haunted me. I missed having the security of heaven.<BR/><BR/> Now it's almost a year later. I realise I am an atheist. I never imagined my views would change so much. I am starting to feel more comfortable with the thought that it just ends when we die. We may not know for sure what happens, but I am not going to put any hope in a myth.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for sharing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1166649921745340852006-12-20T16:25:00.000-05:002006-12-20T16:25:00.000-05:00I think many of you who comment on this new kind o...I think many of you who comment on this new kind of freedom you are experiencing are confused on what freedom really means. Does freedom mean doing whatever you want and whenever you want to do it. The freedom you talk of actually is the kind that enslaves you to this world. What is 80 or 90 years (if your lucky) of "freedom" in this world?..compared to true eternal freedom of God. <BR/> My heart breaks to read your life stories, and to see how you were tricked and led astray. Just like many of your family members pray for your return to truth, so will I , a stranger, pray as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1164242509881382722006-11-22T19:41:00.000-05:002006-11-22T19:41:00.000-05:00Scott, what a great story! You truly chose to tak...Scott, what a great story! You truly chose to take "the red pill" and there is indeed no turning back.<BR/><BR/>Those who seem to feel compelled here to desperately return you to the fold are all motivated by fear. I'm thinking they're probably toying with the idea of rejecting the Bible themselves, or else why are they visiting this site?<BR/><BR/>As for me, I turned my back on Christianity over 30 years ago after reading Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach. Rather than debunking the Bible, however, it simply presented, through metaphor, a much more preferable and logical alternative to the fear-based religions.<BR/><BR/>Although it wasn't until years later that I undertook a serious study of metaphysical philosophy, I liked enough of what the book suggested to be able to evolve beyond the fables and horror stories served up to the masses in the Bible.<BR/><BR/>For me, the eventual "kicker" was the realization that the God of the Bible could not possibly exist simply because I myself was already more spiritually and morally evolved than "Him." And this logic was centered around the concept of eternal punishment in Hell.<BR/><BR/>When it came down to it, I had to admit that if the decision to damn all unbelievers -- or even the worst of us, for that matter -- to eternal, agonizing torture were given to me, I would simply not be capable of tossing any soul into everlasting fire, or whatever other interpretation of the meaning of Hell might be.<BR/><BR/>In other words, my own personal level of empathy for others -- while not anywhere near that of say, a Mother Theresa -- has evolved to a point where I am not capable of allowing such a level of suffering to occur to even the worst of creatures. It simply strikes me as sadistic. I'm not saying old Adolf wouldn't benefit from a brief, quick dip in "The Lake," mind you, but surely a perfectly wise, merciful, and patient God knows countless methods of behavior modification that are certainly more evolved that these sorts of terror tactics. Once I had realized this, I knew that the God of the Bible was a sham, simply because any God less evolved than my lowly, imperfect self could not exist.<BR/><BR/>Any intelligent person who thinks about it understands that the logic of consequences for one's actions is to foment behavior modification. To inspire change within the "guilty party." Since the Christian idea of Hell is an eternal consequence, this negates the capacity for change, and is therefore also rendered illogical.<BR/><BR/>But it was not enough for me to remain an agnostic for the rest of my life. I could not accept the atheistic idea that the Universe is a random event and that there is no real purpose to its and our existence.<BR/><BR/>I found said purpose within a metaphysical belief system. It seems to be a good fit for my highly logical mind, and satisfies, to some degree, my need for purpose in the Universe.<BR/><BR/>If anyone reading this is dissatisfied with their newfound atheism or agnosticism, may I recommend you begin researching the metaphysical belief systems. It's okay if you don't. One of the best things about metaphysics is that none are rejected regardless of their belief in it or not. All are eventually rejoined with God. Some are simply just slow learners.<BR/><BR/>Some books to get you started are the "Seth" books by Jane Roberts, "To Dance With Angels" by Don and Linda Pendleton, and pretty much anything by Deepak Chopra.<BR/><BR/>God does exist, but his/her miracles are all around you. Everything you see, hear, and touch IS God. Even you. We are all One, and We are God, studying the Universe around us from infinite perspectives. Take care!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1163565541011650912006-11-14T23:39:00.000-05:002006-11-14T23:39:00.000-05:00I painstakingly replied to "DagoodS"' paper about ...I painstakingly replied to "DagoodS"' paper about the supposed contradictions in King David's census (15 alleged) alluded to in the post above, in my latest paper:<BR/><BR/>http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/on-alleged-contradictions-of-2-samuel.htmlDave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1163534121058767102006-11-14T14:55:00.000-05:002006-11-14T14:55:00.000-05:00Great rational reply from an intellectual coward w...Great rational reply from an intellectual coward who can't even give his own name. Rather than engage my argument, you simply mock it. I'm a liar, etc. Right.<BR/><BR/>I see you have learned from the method of some others here (not all) who do the same. Mockery to the exlusion of reason and rational examination of opposing argument . . . <BR/><BR/>This is supposed to impress people? If I were considering atheism and saw all the ugliness and contempot that regularly goes down in this forum, it wouldn't cause me to be attracted to atheism to the slightest degree. <BR/><BR/>Christians are supposed to be witnesses of the truths we believe in. We often fail. But so, obviously, do many atheists, in being a witness for their own set of purported truths.<BR/><BR/>Again, not all here do that, but it is enough to be a great turn-off, I think, for someone seeking rational, amiable discussion on a major issue like theism vs. atheism.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1163533663741464142006-11-14T14:47:00.000-05:002006-11-14T14:47:00.000-05:00God does love liars and there are a lot of differe...God does love liars and there are a lot of different way to do that(anyone who says he is not a liar is a liar - that's from scripture somewhere)- but He wants us to love the truth so we don't have to suffer and waste time covering it up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1163513031729194832006-11-14T09:03:00.000-05:002006-11-14T09:03:00.000-05:00At the end of the day, everyone hopes that their a...At the end of the day, everyone hopes that their argument is the best, their belief is the best, and would twist and interprete whatever quotes they can find to substantiate their argument. Don't be self-righteous and say you never do that. I don't think God (if there is one) likes people who lie. And to those who don't think they twisted whatever quotes from Bible to form their argument, I'm sad for your delusion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1163461036360099532006-11-13T18:37:00.000-05:002006-11-13T18:37:00.000-05:00Per my usual custom, I have posted my reply on my ...Per my usual custom, I have posted my reply on my blog, and anyone is welcome to reply there, too:<BR/><BR/>http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/supposed-contradiction-between-2.html<BR/><BR/>I do thank the writer for the food for thought, though we disagree profoundly. It encourages dialogue and the critical faculty, which I love.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1163458849583181762006-11-13T18:00:00.000-05:002006-11-13T18:00:00.000-05:00There is no necessary contradiction between 2 Samu...There is no necessary contradiction between 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, and this holds even if there was development of theology.<BR/><BR/>Ancient Israel was, as you know, a pre-philosophical society. It is very complex today, in philosophy, to work out the relationship of God's sovereignty and human freedom and evil. Much more so back then. <BR/><BR/>Originally, God was thought of as the author of both good and evil, as part and parcel of His sovereignty. To this day, Calvinism approximates that view.<BR/><BR/>Later, as refection developed, the notion of God allowing free will, which is the origin of the evil, came to be better grasped.<BR/><BR/>In any event, the God-Satan relationship vis-a-vis who "caused" sin is not a biblical contradiction as you claim, because it is a commmon motif in Scripture that both God and Satan can be involved in the same act or sin, for different purposes: God for good and Satan for evil.<BR/><BR/>The notion of secondary causation of sin and God's use of it for good is actually present as far back as Genesis. After Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery and at length he became second to Pharaoh in Egypt, Joseph reflects on the higher purposes involved:<BR/><BR/>Genesis 45:4-8 (RSV):<BR/><BR/>4: So Joseph said to his brothers, "Come near to me, I pray you." And they came near. And he said, "I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt.<BR/><BR/>5: And now do not be distressed, or angry with yourselves, <B>because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life.</B><BR/><BR/>6: For the famine has been in the land these two years; and there are yet five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvest.<BR/><BR/>7: And <B>God sent me</B> before you to preserve for you a remnant on earth, and to keep alive for you many survivors.<BR/><BR/>8: So <B>it was not you who sent me here, but God</B>; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt.<BR/><BR/>This is a rather sophisticated understamnding of God's providence, and how He can turn evil intents into a good outcome, and include the same in His providence. A more concise statement of the same notion occurs in Genesis 50:20:<BR/><BR/>"As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."<BR/><BR/>This is a remarkably advanced understanding of complex theology, hardly different in essence from the developed NT thought of Romans 8:28: <BR/><BR/>"We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose."<BR/><BR/>So this is no necessary contradiction at all. It is simply two different ways of describing the same thing (a rather common biblical motif). If God allows Satan to be involved, that is His permissive will; not His perfect will. But God can turn around Satan's evil designs for His own purposes.<BR/><BR/>We find the same dynamic in the book of Job (which is usually considered of a later date than Samuel and Chronicles). God let Job be in Satan's power (Job 1:12), but it was for His higher purpose. When the text speaks of "the evil that the Lord had brought upon him" (42:11), it is in this sense: He permitted Satan to do his thing, which was for a bad purpose, but God had a good purpose in mind.<BR/><BR/>Now, if your contention is correct, that Hebrew thought had evolved from a simple belief that God was beyond good and evil to a dualistic understanding, whereby Satan did the bad stuff (hence a supposed contradiction), then you have to explain why the same advanced concept was already seen in Genesis, among the patriarchs (some 600-800 years before David). <BR/><BR/>And you have to explain why it again appears in Job, probably written after the time of David. This isn't contradiction (one belief earlier, and another contradictory one later); it is simply further understanding of the nature of God and how He is sovereign.<BR/><I>You</I> are the one who has misunderstood (as is so often the case with biblical "exegesis"), not the Hebrews or the Christians.<BR/><BR/>I wrote at length about the similar problem of whether God hardened Pharaoh's heart; tied in with the thought in Romans 9. I explained all this in a similar fashion, giving many biblical parallels:<BR/><BR/><I>Did God Harden Pharaoh's Heart? (Does God Positively Ordain Evil?)</I> (vs. [atheist] "DagoodS") <BR/>http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/10/did-god-harden-pharaohs-heart-does-god.html<BR/><BR/>I later expanded my argument in a discussion with a Calvinist:<BR/><BR/>http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/10/reply-to-calvinist-critique-concerning.html <BR/><BR/>There is also the motif of the "serpent" in the Garden of Eden; obviously a counter-force to God, either Satan himself or his agent. Thus, from early on, the Hebrews had such a notion. It didn't come from Persia; nice try.<BR/><BR/>Similar dynamics occur in 1 Peter. God's purpose in suffering is seen in 4:13-19, but Satan's is seen in 5:8. <BR/><BR/>The crucifixion itself is another example. Judas and Satan had one motivation (e.g., John 13:27), but God had another. In fact, Jesus willfully laid down His life, knowing what would happen, and what the purpose was (John 10:18).<BR/><BR/>So there is no contradiction here at all. It was a clever attempt to find one, though. You simply needed to be more acquainted with Jewish and Christian theology to see that it is no intellectual or logical problem at all for our worldview. <BR/><BR/>Suffering is a huge problem, and another gigantic discussion altogether, but not this supposed contradiction between God and Satan supposedly not being able to be involved in the same event without contradiction.<BR/><BR/>In it,<BR/><BR/>DaveDave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1163135980028716492006-11-10T00:19:00.000-05:002006-11-10T00:19:00.000-05:00Re: Response to the person who thought I might be ...Re: Response to the person who thought I might be breaking the second commandment: I acknowledge Jesus as the final authority of demonstrating God. Offending religious tradition and beliefs is exactly why Jesus was crucified - He challenged Moses's authority against the powerful religious leaders of His day who were deeply rooted in the traditions and teachings of the Torah - Jesus's mission was not a job for the cowardly! Believe me, there is something really terrifying and demoralizing about being villified and rejected by a morally indignant and religious person - I know! Jesus was controversial and crucified for inferring that Moses was influenced by his surrounding community. That is why Jesus's tongue is the "two-edged sword" - meaning that Jesus's words and actions put into perspective what of the Torah is the influence of God and what is the result of man's perspective and limited understanding of God (influence is a recurring theme in the Bible and is found in the gospel message through to the 7 letters to the 7 churches in the book of Revelation). I don't think the people of Moses's day were ready to hear, "Love the enemy" - that sort of message goes against human nature and is readily attacked, especially in a barbaric civilization. During the Old Testament times, it was not uncommon for people to view gods as bloodthirsty and condemning (it was actually a miracle that Abraham didn't kill Isaac considering child sacrifice was a respected practiced and believed to be essential to offset an attack from an angry deity). I won't go on any further, but by the way, it's noble of you to ask for forgiveness but I did not take offense at your comments, but thanks for gesture anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1162952859690007542006-11-07T21:27:00.000-05:002006-11-07T21:27:00.000-05:00Hmmmm... did Anonymous say, "blaming society inste...Hmmmm... did Anonymous say, "blaming society instead of the criminal"???? I think we have someone projecting his delusional perspective here.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1162948642101659512006-11-07T20:17:00.000-05:002006-11-07T20:17:00.000-05:00Anon,The orthodox Christian would say that you hav...Anon,<BR/><BR/>The orthodox Christian would say that you have broken the second commandment by creating a god of your own liking, therefore making yourself bigget than God, because after all, you created Him. As far as your loving your enemies and frogiveness, and blaming society instead of the criminal blah,blah, blah, I think your delusional. So I hope you forgive me!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1162922577006303222006-11-07T13:02:00.000-05:002006-11-07T13:02:00.000-05:00oh, I just want to add one more comment - sorry to...oh, I just want to add one more comment - sorry to be so lengthy! One popular question that is posed to the "Jesus loves everyone" belief is, "What about Hitler???" (I just love these thought provoking queries!!!). I ask those who ask the Hitler question this: do you really believe that anyone who embraces hatred and murder as a means of dealing with those who have mistreated you, will be comfortable in heaven where that is not allowed? Do you really think that if Hitler sees those whom he hated will want to spend eternity in intimate relationship with them? He will think he is looking into the depths of hell! But I also ask you to consider this: on judgement day, who will be more guilty? Hitler or the surrounding community that helped "create" him? We ought to humbly consider the importance of how much lovingkindness cares in our everyday lives. Thank you once again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1162921013241019752006-11-07T12:36:00.000-05:002006-11-07T12:36:00.000-05:00I am grateful that your words have exposed "the so...I am grateful that your words have exposed "the sons of Hell" that Jesus, himself, loved and tried to set free. I too was a humanist and non-believer before I came to believe in Y'shua (sorry, but I have had Jesus and church trauma too so I refer to Him by His Hebrew name - the double standards of hypocrisy are very spiritually painful)but prior to that, I held humanity in a position of idolotry. . I think that the bible is the story of the "consistant inconsistancies" of mankind and a God who left us with more than sacred texts and stone tablets - He left us with His loving spirit and a visible human demonstration of how He wants us to love - is Jesus exclusive??? You bet He is! He loves everyone and we definitely do NOT! If I truly "believe" then I am left to confess my weaknesses to want to be destructive when posed with a threat to my emotional, mental or physical status quo. I think God would prefer that our search for truth lie more in how we define and express love rather than the cultural,racial, religious, political, national divisions that we try to express to identify ourselves. I think God does want us to give up our minds -our territorial mindsets - a tough thing to do, especially towards those who mistreat us (loving the enemy - YIKES - I have to confess that my faith fails me sometimes!!) Actually Jesus rarely used scripture - mostly to those who were devoted toward the Torah - but I don't follow Moses, Abraham, or the Apostles (even Jesus inferred Moses's fallibility when He said that Moses was influenced and pressured by hard-hearted people to create laws that were not a reflection of God's loving will for us). Jesus's words are not easy to imitate - perhaps it is much easier to debate scripture! I hope you are not offended, but I tend to view your blog as "Debunking Human Pride" rather than attacking Y'shua Himself. Thank you for the opportunity to make a comment here!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1162836921805549842006-11-06T13:15:00.000-05:002006-11-06T13:15:00.000-05:00Actually dbull, according to my sources, Satan is ...Actually dbull, according to my sources, <I>Satan</I> is first used here in I Chronicles 21:1 as a proper name.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1162832222562382052006-11-06T11:57:00.000-05:002006-11-06T11:57:00.000-05:00What I did'nt really say above is that almost all ...What I did'nt really say above is that almost all bible translations butcher 1 Chronicles 21 by translating adversary as satan when it could be any adversary and we know from 2 Sam 24 that in this case the adversary is the Lord :-)Brother Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04645401412444899487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1162832064471450632006-11-06T11:54:00.000-05:002006-11-06T11:54:00.000-05:00If you look at the two passages mentioned as water...If you look at the two passages mentioned as watershed events in your deconversion, you'll see that there is really no controversy, between 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21. If you look at the word misstranslated as "satan" in almost all the translations of the bible you will see that the word used is adversary, one who withstands, and this same word is attributed to anyone who plays the part of an adversary, to include various personalities in the bible that include satan, the Lord and various men. Satan is known as the adversary, but anyone playing the part of an adversary gets pinned with the same name. Cheers brother~DBrother Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04645401412444899487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1162782569467330732006-11-05T22:09:00.000-05:002006-11-05T22:09:00.000-05:00I would have to give up my mind in order to turn b...<I>I would have to give up my mind in order to turn back and believe the things which I once believed.</I><BR/><BR/>Isn't this the truth! I know my friends and family pray for me to come back to the fold (my mom says she prays everyday and I believe her - I think the rest of them think about it on occasion). But what they don't realize is that, like you said, I would have to give up my mind in order to believe again. <BR/><BR/>Once you have gone outside the box there is no going back in. I would never give up the incredible freedom I feel having given up the illusion of God. <BR/><BR/>It is good you have a place like this to go to. I only had one friend that I saw twice a year or so that I could talk to about what I was going through in my deconversion process. Funny thing is we were both pastors' wives. We both ended up divorced, first from our husbands and then from the church. <BR/><BR/>Every time we saw each other we would kind of feel each other out to see where we were, to see if we had slipped away as much as the other one. <BR/><BR/>Without her I might have thought I was going crazy for giving it all up.Theresahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06500963592758243607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1162774259568359932006-11-05T19:50:00.000-05:002006-11-05T19:50:00.000-05:00To answer your last question, Scott, NO!I find it ...To answer your last question, Scott, NO!<BR/><BR/>I find it very interesting to learn what the main issue was that led people to deconvert. It doesn't ever seem to be the same issue, and I believe the reason is because there are so many of them, and we are all different people. Thanks again, friend, for sharing with us here at DC. I will always count you as a friend, and although I was very surprised you deconverted, I'm glad you did! It's better over here. It really is. Christian people stuck in their ways just don't understand, until they do as we did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com