tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post114243292306670211..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: What's the Likelihood that Calvinists are Wrong?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10911064828266307802010-05-30T01:59:08.079-04:002010-05-30T01:59:08.079-04:00Calvinism isn't Christianity. It is a line of ...Calvinism isn't Christianity. It is a line of "Christian" thought, but sorely misrepresents the true concept of election, which is based on God's foreknowledge, rather than His predetermined choice to save some and to damn some independently of human free will. <br /><br />Please do not judge Christianity because of calvinism, for calvinism greatly distorts the loving nature of God, who desires that all be saved, but sadly knows that most will refuse to be saved.<br /><br />In my book, "Eternal Security Proved!", I present the doctrine of eternal security from a non-calvinist perspective, and critique each of the 5 points of calvinism.<br /><br />Phillip M. Evans<br /><br /><a href="http://www.eternalsecurityproved.com" rel="nofollow">Eternal Security Proved!</a>Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10465988205120053926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84365348173428659182008-08-05T21:51:00.000-04:002008-08-05T21:51:00.000-04:00Also, calvindude, I believe it was CS Lewis who dr...Also, calvindude, I believe it was CS Lewis who drew the analogy of our recognition of God's attributes in the description of: God's attributes are perfect circles while our understanding looks like a small child drew a circle. If indeed you hold that morality stems from God, which I do in fact believe, then our understanding of his moral qualities should be recognizable to us. To say that we understand love as a circle but God's love looks like an outline of a Boeing 747 is quite an incredible claim. We recognize his love, grace, goodness, etc because he is the source of them in the first place. To say that we can't recognize them is to claim that they really don't come from him and more importantly he has not succeeded in revealing himself to us.Joshua Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02346614010390205950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-42773403234466629862008-08-05T21:41:00.000-04:002008-08-05T21:41:00.000-04:00Calvindude, you're not taking into account the mot...Calvindude, you're not taking into account the motives of actions when you lay out your argument. What makes murder evil? What makes anything evil for that matter? The intentions and motives behind it make it evil. Someone who kills someone out of complete accident is not at fault for the evil of murder. But if the intentions are evil then the person has committed the evil act of murder. So although your argument does not explicitly break any logical rules, its premises don't correspond with reality, which is the definition of an unsound argument. People who murder do indeed deserve to be punished. But what is murder? The intention behind something is what turns killing to murdering. So, if God ordains (and by that term I assume you mean "decrees", so as there is no other option for John) that John murders, John is simply only responsible, at MOST, for the physical act of KILLING. God, however, is responsible for implanting the evil intention; therefore God would be guilty of the actual MURDER aspect of John’s act.Joshua Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02346614010390205950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147429099963331072006-05-12T06:18:00.000-04:002006-05-12T06:18:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1143893053732513712006-04-01T07:04:00.000-05:002006-04-01T07:04:00.000-05:00That was a fun read, good job Calvindude.That was a fun read, good job Calvindude.Dell Gineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02850839613449877822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142541358324194042006-03-16T15:35:00.000-05:002006-03-16T15:35:00.000-05:00A prior written response to Calvindude.<A HREF="http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2006/03/rational-morality-vs-presuppositional.html" REL="nofollow">A prior written response to Calvindude</A>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142532518763624172006-03-16T13:08:00.000-05:002006-03-16T13:08:00.000-05:00Calvindude, here are the links i mentioned along w...Calvindude, here are the links i mentioned along with a couple of extras.<BR/><BR/>Deal with these links, okay?<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/02/understanding-presuppositionalism.html" REL="nofollow">Presuppositionalism</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/03/wwjd.html" REL="nofollow">WWJD</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-motivates-atheist-to-be-good.html" REL="nofollow">What Motivates an Atheist to be good?</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/01/christian-illusion-of-moral.html" REL="nofollow">The Euthyphro dilemma</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142532056747280932006-03-16T13:00:00.000-05:002006-03-16T13:00:00.000-05:00Calvindude, I'm assuming you think torturing, sla...Calvindude, I'm assuming you think torturing, slavery, raping and stealing are evil coming from your own Christian Heritage? So look at the most recent post, WWJD.<BR/><BR/>I do suppose I know what you think is wrong. Just tell me if you disagree, that's all. What are your Christian ethics? Then we can start there.<BR/><BR/>And you seem to have only one argument about morality. I'll deal with that sometime soon. In the meantime, read the "Key Posts So Far..." Presuppositionalism link.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142525570826851762006-03-16T11:12:00.000-05:002006-03-16T11:12:00.000-05:00sdanielmorgan wrote:---Why, then, do you even argu...sdanielmorgan wrote:<BR/>---<BR/>Why, then, do you even argue with us, when your own book claims that unbelievers will see the gospel as "foolishness" (1 Cor) and that our "foolish hearts are darkened"? If you take Scripture's validity as axiomatic, why do you waste your time arguing with those who, apparently, are predestined to hell?<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>What makes you think I argue with you (read this as a plural) for <I>your</I> benefit?<BR/><BR/>By the way, regarding whether words have meaning: If "good" is nothing more than what an individual thinks regarding something, then something is only "good" in the <I>mind</I> of the person who thinks it's good. It is not objectively good at all. Thus, "good" and "evil" have no meaning outside the relative notions that individuals have, so it's absurd to call <I>anything</I> good or evil. It's not. It's only your opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142525051938423032006-03-16T11:04:00.000-05:002006-03-16T11:04:00.000-05:00John wrote:---Calvindude, these are YOUR standards...John wrote:<BR/>---<BR/>Calvindude, these are YOUR standards too. Or do you prospose now to say doing evil is doing good? <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Whoa, stop the presses! Call the National Enquirer! John W. Loftus <I>can read my mind!</I> He knows what my moral standards are! <I>Even after I told him they weren't what he said they were</I>!!!! This is absolutely amazing.<BR/><BR/>But that's not all! I see that John continues to use the terms "good" and "evil" without supplying a definition to them. He just assumes that <I>everyone</I> knows what they mean. So he can actually read <I>everyone's</I> mind!<BR/><BR/>Of course, in the meantime he hasn't offered anything to refute the fact that he is importing <I>his</I> view into the midst of the Calvinist view and then pretending there is a contradiction in the Calvinist view when it's really a contradiction between the Calvinist view and his view. But who needs logic when you can read minds?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142512036423186782006-03-16T07:27:00.000-05:002006-03-16T07:27:00.000-05:00calvindude,You said on your blog,The Law, therefo...calvindude,<BR/><BR/>You <A HREF="http://calvindude.com/dude/blog/2006/03/responsibility-and-gods-predestination/" REL="nofollow">said </A> on your blog,<BR/><B>The Law, therefore, has nothing to do with God. His commandments are for us, not for Him.<BR/><BR/>On the face of it, therefore, God does not stand under the Law, so if He does something that were we to do it would result in our condemnation God is yet not condemned, for He is not under the Law.</B><BR/><BR/>This is exactly the question I was raising before when I said that if goodness is a by-product of god, if our standard of appraising actions and positions as "good" or "bad" is <I>contingent upon</I> god, rather than a capability we can objectively use to assign truth values (and thus have some semblance of free moral agency), then we can call god "goobledegook" or "good" and it means the same basic thing: that what we call "good" or "bad" can never be used to apply to god, because we are using a subset of god's own imposed values to judge the entire set of god's character. You can start with the premise "God is good, everything god does is good". But how would you recognize when it was god acting, and when it was not god acting? The character of god (you call it "good") establishes the very attributes (good, kind, etc.) you want to ascribe <I>to God</I>, by using a bunch of dusty scrolls of uncertain origins to establish who/what God is/does.<BR/><BR/>In this way, the presuppositionalist has begged a question (like they always do):1 Sam 15:3 (NASB)<BR/><B>Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.</B><BR/><BR/>This action was "good" because it was God's action. Killing an infant is not bad if God commands it. How do we know that God commands it? Because you take Scriptural truth as an axiom. How does one defend this, without considering the validity of the premise? How you know you ought to do that? Because you use your reason? No, because god foreordained it...so your reason has nothing to do with it...and this starts to conflict with the idea of even recognizing or acknowledging the validity of Scripture. How do you even have the ability to appraise truth values in scripture or historically, or scientifically, or ANYWHERE? If the sovereignty of the Calvinistic god, who predestines, has determined it, <I>nothing</I> may be logical or reasonable to anyone except those this god predetermined would see these things as reasonable and logical. There is even scriptural support to suppose this! <BR/><BR/>God has blinded the minds of unbelievers!<BR/><BR/>Why, then, do you even argue with us, when your own book claims that unbelievers will see the gospel as "foolishness" (1 Cor) and that our "foolish hearts are darkened"? If you take Scripture's validity as axiomatic, why do you waste your time arguing with those who, apparently, are predestined to hell? Those same people will *never* see any logic or reason to this circular presuppositionalism. Gordon Clark recognized this incomprehensibility feature of god, and so did Van Till. <BR/><BR/>You take god to define good. You take the scriptures as a reliable record of god's actions and character. These same scriptures (in your Calvinist hermeneutics/exegesis) make it abundantly clear that those who do not believe are not "chosen", and thus will not see the logic or reasons for establishing your premises.<BR/><BR/>Why the hell do you even bother, then? You are basically caught in a circular system that reinforces itself and <I>ad hoc</I> explains everything else as "because god said so, because god decided so", without having any burden to go further, since those listening will either believe or not, and that, itself, is god's decision (non-answers that those are).<BR/><BR/>At this point, my earlier comment about my disdain for presup Calvinism should be clear.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142467991836600472006-03-15T19:13:00.000-05:002006-03-15T19:13:00.000-05:00Calvindude, these are YOUR standards too. Or do y...Calvindude, these are YOUR standards too. Or do you prospose now to say doing evil is doing good?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142463784845419742006-03-15T18:03:00.000-05:002006-03-15T18:03:00.000-05:00John wrote:---Look, I don't need to go into this n...John wrote:<BR/>---<BR/>Look, I don't need to go into this now, but I teach college ethics classes and there are several non-ultimate justifications for morality based in duty and based in happiness. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>And are any of those methods based from the Calvinistic worldview? No, of course not. This is <I>proof</I> that you are importing an alien system into Calvinistic in an attempt to force a contradiction that isn't there naturally.<BR/><BR/>Again, your complaint is that a Calvinistic God is an evil God. Yet He is not evil according to Calvinistic standards. He is only evil according to <I>your</I> standards. Your standards are not derrived from Calvinistic standards. Thus, there is no logical problem whatsoever in Calvinism--it is consistent with itself.<BR/><BR/>Now, can you impose your view of morality based on "duty" or "happiness" onto me?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142454597546569822006-03-15T15:29:00.000-05:002006-03-15T15:29:00.000-05:00calvindude, may I join in? What is evil, John? A...calvindude, may I join in?<BR/><BR/><I> What is evil, John? </I> Ah. The easy questions. Violation of a criminal code. Intentional infliction of unnecessary pain. Acting toward someone else, that which you yourself are averse to. We can start with those as basics. <BR/><BR/>Where do I get that definition? Where I get most definitions—human convention used effectively. Is there anyone that claims this is not evil?<BR/><BR/><I> Again I ask, by what standard could you judge God? </I> Our human concept of morality. I hope you saw the humor in the fact that the theist who responded immediately previously said that justice was “written on our heart.” Apparently brandon feels we have the ability!<BR/><BR/>To be clear, and a bit precise, I do not “judge” God. I don’t know him. I don’t know what He does, I don’t know by what moral code he does it. What I “judge” are humans that perform certain actions and claim they are in God’s name. Or humans claiming God will do something, and then attempt to justify it as not evil.<BR/><BR/>The interesting part is that if you have enough of these discussions, you can see that both theist and atheist recognize the problem areas of God being evil. I have never seen a discussion of “Love your neighbor” as God being evil. Or God saving a child. Or God being kind. We all have the same discussions about genocide, and undeserved punishment, and killing. <BR/><BR/>To talk about “how do you know what is evil” and then always have the same discussion makes it obvious we know exactly what we are talking about.<BR/><BR/><I> You still have not dealt with the fundamental point that God is God and He can make the rules whether you like them or not. </I> Thus eliminating any reason to discuss anything about God. If God can define murder as evil one day and moral the next, we are left in a position of never knowing whether murder is evil at that moment. Or good, but evil the next moment.<BR/><BR/>God can “make the rule” that a square has four sides today, and tomorrow “make the rule” it only has three. Here is the problem—we can’t verify anything God does or does not do. By claiming “God is good” you have merely defined any action, regardless of whether it is moral, immoral, amoral, non-moral, happy, sad, enthusiastic, you name it, it is all “good” as God does it. ‘Course we could equally say, “God is evil” (since such a thing exists) or “God is flowery” or “God is peeling” shout, you can say anything!<BR/><BR/>It becomes useless to even talk about God, as the theist will simply define some action as intrinsically the same as God (again, by definition only) and then state God could never be “not” that, by definition.<BR/><BR/>And the more interesting point is that God, according to the Bible theist, DOES care whether I like it or not. Apathy would place me in heaven, if God didn’t care whether I like it or not. The fact I do not like it, according to traditional doctrine, places me in hell. <BR/><BR/>“God makes the rules, and if you don’t like it, he gets angry” is a more accurate statement, perhaps.<BR/><BR/><I> That is how good is defined, John. You can disagree, but what's your objective standard?</I> Did you mean “objective” (as in exterior to oneself) or “absolute”? I see some confusion in this area in many discussions, and don’t want to have more. “Not breaking the law” is an objective standard. We can determine the law (outside of ourselves) and determine whether the law is broken.<BR/><BR/>One may claim, due to the changing of laws, that it is not absolute, but it is still objective. Again, though, defining God as “good” doesn’t really progress the conversation much, due to the lack of verification. God is not even clear as to what “good” is or not. For example, when did eating rabbits become unclean, and when did it become clean again?<BR/><BR/><I> I'm glad that you think things like murder, rape, molesting, and torture are wrong--but they are not wrong because of your worldview in which it is just random actions of atoms.</I> Well, I don’t know about John, but my worldview certainly doesn’t consider this “random” actions of atoms. Odd use of the word “random.” <BR/><BR/>What theists and atheists sometimes don’t see is the common ground in morality. Atheists, realizing that humans are working out their situation the best they can, see morality as a set of rules used to guide human societies to their betterment. Sometimes we succeed. Sometimes we fail. Theists believe that God is the author of morality, but unfortunately we, as humans are trying to work out what that morality is as best we can. Is a female wearing gold a sin? For example. <BR/><BR/>In both situations, the individuals are working out the best plan of morality. Theists somehow think having a God they cannot talk to, with morals they cannot confirm, somehow “one ups” the atheist. Why? You’re doing the same thing, pragmatically.<BR/><BR/>Yes, Paul addressed this in Romans. Did a rotten job. If everything that is done, moral, immoral or non-moral, is for God’s glory, and God’s glory is the greatest goal, then everything performed achieves the greatest goal—God’s glory. I sin, God gets glory. I do not sin, God gets glory. I perform a good act, God gets glory. If all items achieve the same great goal, then all items are “good.” Some may be more good than others, but on the scale, they still are good. <BR/><BR/>Please note, being a former Calvinist, I tend to have some favoritism towards the position, so I do understand the sentiment behind the statements. I think it is consistent with the Bible. Wrong, mind you (wink) but still consistent.DagoodShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04557451438888314932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142451971338527342006-03-15T14:46:00.000-05:002006-03-15T14:46:00.000-05:00Calvindude:Elsewhere I see that you quote the Bibl...Calvindude:<BR/><BR/>Elsewhere I see that you quote the Bible to defend your position. You can do that, of course, <B>but I'm asking whether the position you attribute to Paul is consistent with a good God, that's all.</B> My claim is that it is not. So you can go along quoting what Paul said all you want to. After you're done describing what Paul said, then you can take a look again at my questions. Then you can ask, if what Paul says is correct, then what kind of God exists? I'm thinking you'll see that such a God is nothing more or less than a devil <I>ON YOUR OWN GROUNDS!</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142451378686456802006-03-15T14:36:00.000-05:002006-03-15T14:36:00.000-05:00Look, I don't need to go into this now, but I teac...Look, I don't need to go into this now, but I teach college ethics classes and there are several non-ultimate justifications for morality based in duty and based in happiness. Relativism isn't the boogey man Christians think it is either. <BR/><BR/>I do not need an ultimate justification to say the Calvinistic God shouldn't be using people as he purportedly does, and I don't need to have an ultimate justification for saying it's wrong to sadistically burn babies alive for the fun of it. But God does. He decrees these things almost everyday. <BR/><BR/>While I may not have an ultimate justification here, I am better person than the Calvinistic God. He uses and abuses people in the worst ways possible. No society would allow him to live if he were a human being. No one's ethics are so sadistically low as that.<BR/><BR/>Instinctively you know this too.<BR/><BR/>Besides, I can compare God's behavior to his claims in the Bible. He repeatedly breaks all of his commands every single second of the day. And no one can trust a single thing he tells us in the Bible, either, because he speaks out of both sides of his mouth--would you even want a friend who does this?<BR/><BR/>You worship the devil, plain and simple. There is no ethical position I know of that will say doing any of these deeds are right. Everyone of them I know of would condemn your God's behavior in the worst possible ways, even the ethical standards he himself supposedly set up for Christians.<BR/><BR/>And I'm asked to trust this God...to pray to him....to praise him....to worship him? There is nothing praiseworthy about such a God at all. I abhor such a Calvinistic God.<BR/><BR/>The only reason you defend such a God is because you were taught to believe in such a God in the first place. If you were born in Japan or Iraq, or Israel you would be defending something different right now. And if you were born into a good Arminian family you'd more likely than not deny Calvinism like I do.<BR/><BR/>Blind people, following the "accidents of their birth."<BR/><BR/>If nothing else, what are the odds that you misunderstand the Bible rather than such a God exists? The odds are extremely high that Arminianism is true, given the nature of your God. And the odds are higher yet that Jesus and Paul were both superstitious men who believed they were speaking for God like many in their day believed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142450148102335462006-03-15T14:15:00.000-05:002006-03-15T14:15:00.000-05:00John wrote:---Now I might not have an ultimate jus...John wrote:<BR/>---<BR/>Now I might not have an ultimate justification for such a morality, but God has a lot of explaining to do as to why he can treat us this way and yet claim that he's a "good" person.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>And you accuse <I>me</I> of Logical Gerrymandering? Let's sum up your argument:<BR/><BR/>1) I don't have a justification for my morality.<BR/><BR/>2) I prefer that my morality is right.<BR/><BR/>3) Therefore, God has to answer to my moral morality.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, that follows really well, John. Let me try that now:<BR/><BR/>1) A is not non-A<BR/><BR/>2) I would prefer that A was non-A<BR/><BR/>3) Therefore it is.<BR/><BR/>Wow, that's a great debate tool. How did reason ever last for so long without this tactic?<BR/><BR/>---<BR/>He merely maintains he's good while doing evil to all of us in some form or another. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Here you go <I>again</I> using the terms "good" and "evil" <I>without providing a meaningful definition as to what they are!</I> All you've got is your preference, John. Your preference doesn't cut it with me. I prefer chocolate to vanilla. Let's base morality off that.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142449442588930422006-03-15T14:04:00.000-05:002006-03-15T14:04:00.000-05:00Well, Calvindude, I prefer my square peg that says...Well, Calvindude, I prefer my square peg that says it is morally wrong to torture, rape, kindnap, molest, or murder. I also say it is wrong for God to use people as a means to an end.<BR/><BR/>Now I might not have an ultimate justification for such a morality, but God has a lot of explaining to do as to why he can treat us this way and yet claim that he's a "good" person. <BR/><BR/>The characteristic of Goodness, applied to that kind of God, merely means whatever God does, and hence he is the devil. He merely maintains he's good while doing evil to all of us in some form or another. <BR/><BR/>For someone to act like the devil and yet demand that others think of him as a good person adequately describes the devil anyway!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142447371031625042006-03-15T13:29:00.000-05:002006-03-15T13:29:00.000-05:00"Then I have you both coming and going.Want to joi..."Then I have you both coming and going.<BR/><BR/>Want to join this Blog as a team member someday?"<BR/><BR/>Thankfully, there is such a thing as inconsistency in such matters. One can use improper methods and still reach the right conclusions. I would argue that Christians using false methodologies are so in spite of their methods, not because of. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for the invite (lol), but I view atheistic methodology as begging the question (and stealing from my worldview!).<BR/><BR/>-BrandonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142447073547139162006-03-15T13:24:00.000-05:002006-03-15T13:24:00.000-05:00sdanielmorgan wrote:---I think the logical conundr...sdanielmorgan wrote:<BR/>---<BR/>I think the logical conundrum comes when we try to say, "God is good", then turn around and say, "we are fallen, and our sense of good is all whacked out".<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>We do not believe God is good based on how humans define good; God is good because He is. This is an axiomatic position. It is not dependent upon how we view good or evil anymore than Geometry is invalid because we can't actually visualize a point (since it has no size) but have to look at a dot on paper.<BR/><BR/>---<BR/>Either humans are incapable of rendering judgments such as "good" and "bad", in which case we may as well be saying, "God is wefoiwejfweoikwelkjfw" when we say "God is good", or humans *are* capable of appraising ethical values.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>No one ever said humans <I>aren't</I> able to appraise ethical values. The question is <I>on what basis</I> can we judge ethical values? You have to have a standard to start with.<BR/><BR/>The problem with John's argument is that he takes a Christian worldview (one that has it's own distinct moral standards) and then imposes <I>his</I> moral view onto the Christian system, and then complains that it's contradictory. <BR/><BR/>His moral view, however, has no standing on itself. Not only does it not exist in the Christian worldview, he has no reason to hold to it in his own atheistic view either. It's like trying to force a square peg into a round hole and then complaining that it doesn't fit right. What do you expect?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142444782519925382006-03-15T12:46:00.000-05:002006-03-15T12:46:00.000-05:00then you are aware that the critique presup gives ...<I>then you are aware that the critique presup gives to the other views is that *methodologically* they have more in common with atheism than Christianity.</I><BR/><BR/>Interesting observation Brandon.<BR/><BR/>Then I have you both coming and going.<BR/><BR/>Want to join this Blog as a team member someday?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142444520768468152006-03-15T12:42:00.000-05:002006-03-15T12:42:00.000-05:00sdanielmorgan says, "I see that you are wagering a...sdanielmorgan says, "I see that you are wagering a presup question about assigning ethical values. Personally, I don't have the ability, nor do I particularly care to, foray into analytic philosophy to examine your premise that god is necessary for goodness."<BR/><BR/>It's remarkable that you noticed that I am presup, because you went on to critique a position which is not presuppositionalism. I believe God is good because he has revealed that he is in nature and Scripture, not because of a law of contigency.<BR/><BR/>John W. Loftus says, "This is absolute poppycock. I believed these things when I was a Christian. I believed Calvinism makes atheists then, and I believe it now."<BR/><BR/>I would never dream of saying that every Christian has a consistent view of epistemology. If you are at all familiar with the in-house debate between presuppositionalism, evidentialism, and classical apologetics, then you are aware that the critique presup gives to the other views is that *methodologically* they have more in common with atheism than Christianity. <BR/><BR/>Just because you were a Christian and were convinced by the argument, says nothing about the quality of the method used, nor your ethical state when agreeing to it.<BR/><BR/>-BrandonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142442874490042942006-03-15T12:14:00.000-05:002006-03-15T12:14:00.000-05:00Brandon and Calvindude,I see that you are wagering...Brandon and Calvindude,<BR/><BR/>I see that you are wagering a presup question about assigning ethical values. Personally, I don't have the ability, nor do I particularly care to, foray into analytic philosophy to examine your premise that god is necessary for goodness. In that sense, goodness is contingent upon god's existence, and so applying it as necessary for god to *be* good is illogical and absurd. If, as I suspect, pattern recognition and mathematical truth underly the evolutionary cognitive abilities we humans have, values, morals, and ethics are contextualized and relative. I take a sort of neo-utilitarian approach: Killing a baby is wrong not because it is intrinsically so, but because there is no context within which one can justify or necessitate taking the life of an infant. Then again, there is Ugolino's paradox...which is a bit like the inverse of us eating Jesus' flesh, right (snark)?nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142442528994964082006-03-15T12:08:00.000-05:002006-03-15T12:08:00.000-05:00Calvindude,I think the logical conundrum comes whe...Calvindude,<BR/><BR/>I think the logical conundrum comes when we try to say, "God is good", then turn around and say, "we are fallen, and our sense of good is all whacked out".<BR/><BR/>It's like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Either humans are incapable of rendering judgments such as "good" and "bad", in which case we may as well be saying, "God is wefoiwejfweoikwelkjfw" when we say "God is good", or humans *are* capable of appraising ethical values.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142439881764192982006-03-15T11:24:00.000-05:002006-03-15T11:24:00.000-05:00Calvindude quoted Paul in Romans 9:19-24.Now here'...Calvindude quoted Paul in Romans 9:19-24.<BR/><BR/>Now here's a further question: given the evil nature of the Calvinistic God as unworthy of worship and untrustworthy when he speaks, what are the odds that this God exists versus the odds that some guy named Paul living in an ancient and superstitious world actually knew God enough to tell us what God is like?<BR/><BR/>Given this particular choice, I know what I'd choose. Paul was wrong. Although for you there is another choice...Arminianism.<BR/><BR/>And as far as your Calvinistic theology creating atheists goes...yes it does, and I'm trying to show how you should be one too. But it'll take more than information. Still, that's what I'm providing here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com