tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post114211504299259049..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Nostalgic TodayUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67658921229074663452013-03-08T18:39:11.330-05:002013-03-08T18:39:11.330-05:00The values presented in the Bible are not problema...The values presented in the Bible are not problematic at all. If you can't see their value in our society, try going to North Korea, where most don't have those values. I've been there. It's ugly.AGFELPASOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06825760377760039076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85228844632636942032013-03-08T18:33:06.374-05:002013-03-08T18:33:06.374-05:00Sounds like Calvinism - which is Bull!Sounds like Calvinism - which is Bull!AGFELPASOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06825760377760039076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-28101666873940810862013-03-08T18:30:14.310-05:002013-03-08T18:30:14.310-05:00Scripture does not say we are "bad Christians...Scripture does not say we are "bad Christians". The Church of Christ is your problem. I was in it until I was 25. My Granny is 95 and still in it, as her mother was. Scripture calls us saints! We have a new identity in Christ. He does not call us bad Christians, but heirs - sons and daughters. #NewCovenantAGFELPASOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06825760377760039076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17442575598671597402013-03-08T18:24:51.185-05:002013-03-08T18:24:51.185-05:00True Christianity can be comfortable, but not alwa...True Christianity can be comfortable, but not always. Jesus.said we would have tribulation, but to be of good cheer! Also, see see Hebrews 4:10,11. Sabbath rest! :^DAGFELPASOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06825760377760039076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3149847864781686972010-06-10T17:20:42.361-04:002010-06-10T17:20:42.361-04:00Michael said...
I put "religion" in quo...<i>Michael said... <br />I put "religion" in quotation marks because atheism is a "religion" in and of itself. It is a faith of the highest accord.</i><br /><br /><b>Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god. It is a religion in the same way as bald is a hair color!</b>Ruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07487353994277648802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75750467810217190332009-11-15T15:22:17.102-05:002009-11-15T15:22:17.102-05:00Being torn between "religions" or variat...Being torn between "religions" or variations of a "religion" I can understand. Willful unbelief after investigating the facts about a higher power, I cannot. I put "religion" in quotation marks because atheism is a "religion" in and of itself. It is a faith of the highest accord. To know that the foundation of atheism hinges upon chance of epic proportions is a faith I cannot muster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86568699191811029982008-02-03T19:41:00.000-05:002008-02-03T19:41:00.000-05:00As a child I attended a Lutheran Church and was ba...As a child I attended a Lutheran Church and was baptized and confirmed. As an adult I was baptized as a Baptist and spent some time with the Navigators overseas. I was treasurer of a Methodist Church. It was at times a very pleasant journey and at times there were disturbing events. I have no regrets and have many fond memories of the good times. As I grew older, I no longer felt the need to engage in Church activities and found myself in virtually total disagreement with the doctrines of Christianity.<BR/>I guess I am closest to being an Agnostic. I just cannot see how we can know the answers to questions concerning that which we have no means of investigating. I am happy with that and have no fear of death. One question which really does bother me is that asked by many Christians " What if you are wrong ". As I am almost 70 now I am entering into my final years. I have no fear of Death because I am not afraid to live. It has been a good ride and I look forward to my final years with anticipation of many more pleasant moments along with some sad ones. The end will come someday and that is as it should be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142369266890401832006-03-14T15:47:00.000-05:002006-03-14T15:47:00.000-05:00I suppose that your "101" blurbs were in reference...I suppose that your "101" blurbs were in reference to my question about your criteria for conceptual validity. If that is correct, then we need to work on some clarification. First, I did not need an "anthropology 101" account of biological and cultural factors. Second, you provided me with an <I>argumentative</I> definition of validity. However, "validity" is an ambiguous term, and argumentative validity is certainly distinct from conceptual validity. Remember, this question stemmed from your claim that you have never seen a demonstration that the concept of value is valid. The concept of value is <I>not an argument</I>, so the argumentative definition of validity does not apply. The reason I want to know your criteria for conceptual validity is so that I can determine whether the concept of value is valid according to your understanding of the terms.<BR/><BR/>Assume that it is the case that if you believe the set of claims in the Bible then you would have "a reason to admire something." It is possible that some false set of claims can give you a reason to admire something. Therefore, if you believe the set of claims in the Bible because they give you a reason to admire something, it is still possible that the set of claims in the Bible are false.<BR/><BR/>There is good reason to believe that several of the important claims that the Bible makes are false. For example, the Biblical account of creation cannot be literally true. The doctrine of the incarnation cannot be literally true. The notion of omniscience is incoherent since it can prove mutually exclusive claims (i.e. that an omniscient being knows by acquaintance what it is like to be non-omniscient while it is still omniscient), but God is supposed to be omniscient, and so the very existence of God cannot be literally true. The list goes on and on.<BR/><BR/>To believe something is to assert that it is true. Does your desire for a reason to admire something seem so strong to you that you would be willing to assert the truth of the Biblical set of propositions despite the fact that there are good reasons to believe that they are false, and despite the fact that a set's ability to provide a reason for admiration has no bearing on its truth-value whatsoever?<BR/><BR/>The existence of values is not contrived. To say that they are contrived is to say that they are the conscious creation of the human mind, but that is not the case. Values <I>are</I> creations, but not of the conscious mind.<BR/><BR/>In contrast, the hypotheses some humans present to explain the existence of the moral and aesthetic phenomena can be contrived in a manner that is without regard to how values actually emerged. Christianity is one such contrivance, and a poor one at that. You still have not answered the question of how you would reconcile the belief in the Bible so that you can have a reason to admire with the fact that the Bible presents a problematic value system (problematic in both the sense that it is at tension with itself and in the sense that it seems counter-intuitive at places such as the placement of blame for the fall on the descendents of Adam and Eve who did not perform the violating action).<BR/><BR/>There are <I>so many</I> problems with true Christian ethics that if you choose to accept Christianity just for a reason to admire something then there is nothing that I nor anyone else can say to prevent you from adopting Christianity, because your decision would clearly be beyond the scope of rationality.Nihlohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10212972916007086778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142329158340817632006-03-14T04:39:00.000-05:002006-03-14T04:39:00.000-05:00Anthropology 101. Biological and cultural factors....Anthropology 101. <BR/>Biological and cultural factors. At some point in human evolution we found that co-operational groups survive much better than individuals. Ethics are born. This I know.<BR/><BR/> Philosophy 101.<BR/>An argument is valid only when it is impossible for the conclusion to be proven false given the premises. It is only sound when the premises are actually true. This I also know.<BR/><BR/>The following is the argument I see lived out in the life of most atheists:<BR/> - Only that which is consistent with nature and its laws should be accepted and lived out as truth<BR/> - Naturally, humanity developed ethics, standards by which to treat others symbiotically for mutual survival<BR/> - Naturally, humanity developed religion, an explanation of all that they did not understand, giving higher meaning to ethics, defining what is good and bad, beautiful and ugly.<BR/> - Naturally, humanity recognized reason, and derived a system of understanding things<BR/> - through reason humanity rejected religion as a contrivance that had outlived its evolutionary usefulness<BR/> - All dualisms such as right/wrong, consonant/dissonant, valuable/not valuable, etc. are also recognized as contrivances, and rejected<BR/> - Therefore, one ought live their life as naturally as possible, seeking fulfillment by admiring the beautiful, and rejecting the untrue.<BR/><BR/>Invalidity: Beauty and meaning left when higher order was rejected, yet we are forced to assume meaning and value somewhere, whether by choice or what is culturally given to them, if we are to have reason to survive. How can a rational person reject higher order as a human contrivance without also rejected meaning, value, ethics, beauty, etc. as equally man-made ideas unfounded in natural truth? <BR/><BR/>The idea of higher order seems very attractive right now because at least it would give me reason to admire something. Beauty then would not be merely 'aesthetically pleasing" (a canard often mistaken as meaning something), but reminiscent of something much larger than myself. I would have an actual reason for getting up in the morning without having to fool myself into accepting some set of contrived values, though I am beginning to think that is inevitable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142322802888954062006-03-14T02:53:00.000-05:002006-03-14T02:53:00.000-05:00I have not said anything that would justify one in...I have not said anything that would justify one in deducing that I seek or desire values. I don't "desire" values. I simply <I>have</I> them, as do most people. Moral dispositions are the production of natural selection operating upon biological and cultural factors. They are not the product of a mere choice. There is nothing masturbatory about it.<BR/><BR/>Could you describe what your criteria are for conceptual validity? Why would the value problem convince you of the truth of the Bible? Are you aware of the fact that the values presented in the Bible are problematic themselves? I promise you that your difficulties would only be exacerbated by such a turn.Nihlohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10212972916007086778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142322030793513842006-03-14T02:40:00.000-05:002006-03-14T02:40:00.000-05:00nihlo:"Values are not fake. They are just not true...nihlo:<BR/>"Values are not fake. They are just not true or false."<BR/><BR/>"I don't waste my time desiring things that I know don't exist."<BR/><BR/>So shall I deduce from these statements that you instead use your time wisely seeking those values that are niether true nor false, right nor wrong, but just are, an internal choice. Are they then entirely self serving, like a kind of ethical masterbation? I do not mean to offend, but the term is very appropriate here. <BR/><BR/>It has yet to be shown to me, on this site and on any other, that "value" is a valid concept since there is no order that is not natural random. So far I have been with most of you, but this site is actually starting to make the Bible look attractive to me again. PLEASE HELP ME.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142318130170139662006-03-14T01:35:00.000-05:002006-03-14T01:35:00.000-05:00Your claim that everyone desires something perfect...Your claim that everyone desires something perfect and bigger than themselves (obviously God) is demonstrably false. I don't waste my time desiring things that I know don't exist.Nihlohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10212972916007086778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142311289922450962006-03-13T23:41:00.000-05:002006-03-13T23:41:00.000-05:00ex nihilo:"Is my desire for closure and purpose re...ex nihilo:<BR/>"Is my desire for closure and purpose really natural?"<BR/><BR/>I heard an interesting point earlier.<BR/><BR/>All of our hungers can be satisfied in the world, except one. The desire for something bigger than ourselves; something perfect; something that lasts forever. We all feel it.<BR/><BR/>That hunger is there for a reason. It can be filled.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142311075314108622006-03-13T23:37:00.000-05:002006-03-13T23:37:00.000-05:00ex nihilo:"unless we construct an ethical game as ...ex nihilo:<BR/>"unless we construct an ethical game as fake as Christianity"<BR/><BR/>I was similarly in turmoil. I had not been exposed to the notion of the Bible as literal truth. I had not learned of the guiding and protecting power of the Holy Spirit, and that the accounts were written soon after the crucifixion (not hundreds of years later).<BR/><BR/>Re-reading the Bible as literal truth was an eye opening experience for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142302902476107422006-03-13T21:21:00.000-05:002006-03-13T21:21:00.000-05:00Values are not fake. They are just not true or fa...Values are not fake. They are just not true or false. That is not the same thing.Nihlohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10212972916007086778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142280820761260522006-03-13T15:13:00.000-05:002006-03-13T15:13:00.000-05:00stardust 1954: "simply accepting the reality of na...stardust 1954: "simply accepting the reality of nature and living life the best way I can brings me peace."<BR/><BR/>I am sorry, I don't understand this statement. Certainly it is said and assumed by innumerable people, but I can't make sense out of it. Accepting the 'reality of nature' seems to mean that I cannot assume value in a system that is valueless. A good life, a bad life, it makes not difference if we help the old lady accross the street or run her over unless we construct an ethical game as fake as Christianity. Matter and energy cannot have a good or bad side about it, it just is. Is my desire for closure and purpose really natural?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142273645462940042006-03-13T13:14:00.000-05:002006-03-13T13:14:00.000-05:00All information will be lost, all life will die.Th...<I>All information will be lost, all life will die.</I><BR/><BR/>This is what most humans cannot accept and are afraid of, so they invent ways to make it all continue in their own minds and for a way to cope with the inevitable. <BR/><BR/>For me, simply accepting the reality of nature and living life the best way I can brings me peace.Stardusthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10560872454564355114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142270455725973522006-03-13T12:20:00.000-05:002006-03-13T12:20:00.000-05:00So?So?Nihlohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10212972916007086778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142262283917481142006-03-13T10:04:00.000-05:002006-03-13T10:04:00.000-05:00ex nihilo:"pretending that there is meaning somewh...ex nihilo:<BR/>"pretending that there is meaning somewhere"<BR/><BR/>This is why, even at my lowest point spiritually, I could not accept atheism. It is very attractive, intellectually. Not complicated, very minimal.<BR/><BR/>But you cannot outrun entropy. Eventually everything will run down. All information will be lost, all life will die.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142261443752493832006-03-13T09:50:00.000-05:002006-03-13T09:50:00.000-05:00If God is completely sovereign then God decreed wh...If God is completely sovereign then God decreed what I am doing (could I have done otherwise?). I am leading people away from him. If I'm effective, people will die without Christ. People will be in hell as a result of my efforts (according to this God). I cannot do otherwise. He decrees this because the people who suffer in hell for all eternity bring him glory. This is just laughable to me.<BR/><BR/>This God could have equally decreed that we all loved and obeyed him and that there was no sin on earth and no need for a Savior. Or he could've decreed that everyone on earth heard and believed the gospel of Jesus. But these two scenerios do not bring him as much glory as the one we find ourselves in, where I am leading people away from him, and with the billions (?) of people will suffer in hell for eternity?<BR/><BR/>Where's my laugh machine. I know I have it somewhere. Oh. Here it is.<BR/><BR/>hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142243512972175332006-03-13T04:51:00.000-05:002006-03-13T04:51:00.000-05:00Values and aesthetics needn't be so contrived, eve...Values and aesthetics needn't be so contrived, even in the face of atheism. They come <I>naturally</I>.Nihlohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10212972916007086778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142238767083773122006-03-13T03:32:00.000-05:002006-03-13T03:32:00.000-05:00I guess my point is this: Christianity is a lie, a...I guess my point is this: Christianity is a lie, a game that makes up a higher order, and then all human meaning and purpose comes from that. We know this.<BR/><BR/>However, as an atheist, I find it hard to use believe in the validity of words like "beauty" and even "comfort" vs. "depression" without playing a similar game with myself, pretending that there is meaning somewhere. At least as a Christian, while comfort is not a spiritual ideal (but usually a reality), one can be reassured in the belief in ETERNAL compensation. Though I do not believe in a god anymore I search to for satisfaction in the temporal, and to do that I must pretend that beauty and admiration mean something. <BR/><BR/>To me, strong rationalism must eventually lead to skepticism (the limitless epistemological hole), and that in order even have desire to get out of bed in the morning, I must make-up a value system in which love has a place, kindness has a place. There is no god, and now I am a troubed athiest, is there any way out?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142222580151935732006-03-12T23:03:00.000-05:002006-03-12T23:03:00.000-05:00ex nihilo:"It makes me want to destroy anything sp...ex nihilo:<BR/>"It makes me want to destroy anything spoken of as beautiful."<BR/><BR/>That's seems pretty depressing. Are you trying to make some deeper point?<BR/><BR/>"It seems lie and comfort, or truth and depression."<BR/><BR/>True Christianity is not comfortable. There is tribulation and testing your faith, growing, and challenging yourself. There is room for joy and fun and good friends. But it should never feel comfortable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142216266896473522006-03-12T21:17:00.000-05:002006-03-12T21:17:00.000-05:00jeff: "Christianity is a lie. It may be a beautifu...jeff: "Christianity is a lie. It may be a beautiful lie in some respects, but it's still a lie." <BR/><BR/>In what way is Christianity a 'beautiful' lie? <BR/><BR/>If by that you mean that it has certain good traits like giving people hope for life/afterlife, encouraging community, and basic humanitarian acts, I am hard pressed to find beauty there if it is still a lie. <BR/><BR/>Since becoming an athiest, I am hard pressed to find beauty in anything. A sunset for example, while I used to be able to believe that it was evident of higher order of some kind, I now accept that it is mere energy and matter existing in a time frame, much the way that my percieving eyes are. How can I find beauty it natural, self-existing order? It makes me want to destroy anything spoken of as beautiful. It seems lie and comfort, or truth and depression. Any thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1142187767069124472006-03-12T13:22:00.000-05:002006-03-12T13:22:00.000-05:00I haven't found any "devastating facts" so far. A...I haven't found any "devastating facts" so far. A lot of that is because there is a lot of content on this site, and I am a slow reader.<BR/><BR/>Let me put forward a straw man, and let you guys punch holes in it and fill in the meat:<BR/><BR/>15e9 BCE - Nothing becomes super dense something, promptly explodes/expands into pockets of hydrogen. Hydrogen begins to form first generation stars.<BR/><BR/>5e9 BCE - 1st generation stars die, 2nd generation forms from remaining hydrogen and ejected heavier matter<BR/><BR/>6e8 BCE - life evolves from mineral soup on earth<BR/><BR/>1e5 BCE - first humans appear<BR/><BR/>2e4 BCE - humans reach as far as they will until post 1600 CE<BR/><BR/>6e3 BCE - agriculture independently invented in China, India, Iraq, and Egypt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com