tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post114013698499751012..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: New Team MemberUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11348391404551799482008-07-01T20:08:00.000-04:002008-07-01T20:08:00.000-04:00Hi exbeliever,It seems as though your previous fai...Hi exbeliever,<BR/><BR/>It seems as though your previous faith was one that was immature, and that unfortunately you left it before it had a chance to grow. <BR/><BR/>I want to pinpoint a few passages that you wrote to illustrate my point. <BR/><BR/>"When I was a kid, I loved thinking that a big fluffy bunny came into my room and left a basket. I loved the magic that the world held."<BR/><BR/>"It would be nice to live in a world of magic...But one day, when I got a little older, I figured out that there really was no Santa Claus or fluffy bunny bringing me a basket. I would have loved to have continued in that belief because it is a very nice belief. I just couldn't anymore."<BR/><BR/>"Atheism is not nicer or sweeter than theism, it's just (in my mind) more realistic."<BR/><BR/><BR/>I find it interesting that you compare the Christian faith to a belief in magic, and describe atheism as being more realistic. I find this interesting because in my own personal life, I feel that I had been living a life of illusions and "magic" before finally truly becoming Christian my senior year of college (I had grown up in a Christian church but it wasn't until college that I grew in faith). Here I use the word magic in the sense that I believed that I controlled my own destiny, that I could live for myself and still be happy. And to be honest, in some ways I felt happy because I could depend on myself and feel a sense of accomplishment when I bring home good grades, etc. <BR/><BR/>When I became Christian though, my worldview became much more mature. I think we need to be careful about saying that Christianity solves all your problems. According to the Bible, suffering actually builds the faith. So basically, when one gives his life to Christ, the result isn't that he feels necessarily happier than before. The result is that he becomes mature in his perspective of the world. H realizes that he is one person out of 6 billion (what can I possibly achieve in my lifetime that is significant?), and yet, he is one of God's people ( I believe God has a special purpose for me). He feels a sense of responsibility to give himself in service of others. <BR/><BR/>In fact, as mature Christians we should not be looking for our own happiness in our lives. Once our lives begin in the Christian faith we then realize that we are instruments of God and that He wants to use us to improve the lives of others. To think otherwise is to hold a very immature view of the Christianity- that the point of it is solely to make ourselves happy. The point really is that we should show love to others and to think of ourselves less. <BR/><BR/>When I realized this idea of Christianity I became drastically mature in my faith. My perspective is always, how can God use me to bring joy and salvation to others? What is his plan for me? It is no longer, how can God make me happy? It is necessary to make that turning point in our faith, or else ours is not a faith at all. <BR/><BR/>Haven't you heard the saying "ignorance is bliss." After becoming Christian the idea of me and my family living eternally in bliss was important to me, but not as important as trying to understand my role in God's plan for the world.dtkwonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12105342333347440363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-60168502628280762552008-07-01T20:03:00.000-04:002008-07-01T20:03:00.000-04:00Hi exbeliever,It seems as though your previous fai...Hi exbeliever,<BR/><BR/>It seems as though your previous faith was one that was immature, and unfortunately you left it before it had a chance to grow. <BR/><BR/>I want to pinpoint a few passages that you wrote to illustrate my point. <BR/><BR/>"When I was a kid, I loved thinking that a big fluffy bunny came into my room and left a basket. I loved the magic that the world held."<BR/><BR/>"It would be nice to live in a world of magic...But one day, when I got a little older, I figured out that there really was no Santa Claus or fluffy bunny bringing me a basket. I would have loved to have continued in that belief because it is a very nice belief. I just couldn't anymore."<BR/><BR/>"Atheism is not nicer or sweeter than theism, it's just (in my mind) more realistic."<BR/><BR/><BR/>I find it interesting that you compare the Christian faith to a belief in magic, and describe atheism as being more realistic. I find this interesting because in my own personal life, I feel that I had been living a life of illusions and "magic" before finally truly becoming Christian my senior year of college (I had grown up in a Christian church but it wasn't until college that I grew in faith). Here I use the word magic in the sense that I believed that I controlled my own destiny, that I could live for myself and still be happy. And to be honest, in some ways I felt happy because I could depend on myself and feel a sense of accomplishment when I bring home good grades, etc. <BR/><BR/>When I became Christian though, my worldview became much more mature. I think we need to be careful about saying that Christianity solves all your problems. According to the Bible, suffering actually builds the faith. So basically, when one gives his life to Christ, the result isn't that he feels necessarily happier than before. The result is that he becomes mature in his perspective of the world. He no longer is living for himself, but sees himself as just one person out of 6 billion (what can one really achieve in this world, in his lifetime), yet nevertheless one of God's people (I believe God has a special purpose for me). He feels a sense of responsibility to give himself in service of others. <BR/><BR/>In fact, as mature Christians we should not be looking for our own happiness in our lives. Once our lives begin in the Christian faith we then realize that we are instruments of God and that He wants to use us to improve the lives of others. To think otherwise is to hold a very immature view of the Christianity- that the point of it is solely to make ourselves happy. The point really is that we should show love to others and to think of ourselves less. <BR/><BR/>When I realized this idea of Christianity I became drastically mature in my faith. My perspective is always, how can God use me to bring joy and salvation to others? What is his plan for me? It is no longer, how can God make me happy? It is necessary to make that turning point in our faith, or else ours is not a faith at all. <BR/><BR/>Haven't you heard the saying "ignorance is bliss."? <BR/><BR/>After becoming Christian the idea of me and my family living eternally in bliss is important to me, but not as important as trying to understand my role in God's plan for the world.dtkwonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12105342333347440363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69262042174115792892008-06-10T05:10:00.000-04:002008-06-10T05:10:00.000-04:00i was wondering what is so convincing of the athie...i was wondering what is so convincing of the athiestic worldview, just wondering, i find it to be the other way around, I find the the Bible to be more real each and everytime I see the way people our today, and how without Jesus their really isn't a purpose or desire for me to live. Please could you elaborate, I would like to see if you make sense to me what you believe.Godschildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06583149741946017272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147430262303504052006-05-12T06:37:00.000-04:002006-05-12T06:37:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147015214459732922006-05-07T11:20:00.000-04:002006-05-07T11:20:00.000-04:00Anon,Oooh, oooh, let me play your game:How easy it...Anon,<BR/><BR/>Oooh, oooh, let me play your game:<BR/><BR/>How easy it is for a "so-called Christian" who knows many other "so-called Christians" and they all "so-called KNOW" that when one "meets Jesus" (a man who died approximately 2000 years ago) that their lives will so-called "never be the same".<BR/><BR/>If these Christians had even a "stain" of their so-called intelligence, education, whatever, they would at least know that only someone as dumb as them would beleive[sic] all this garbage. <BR/><BR/>Dead men are in the grave, and there to stay.<BR/><BR/>If these asinine commenters [anonymous] weren't so stupid, I would laugh, but I can only shake my head at such ignorance as they display in believing that Magic Men can die and live again, and float up to the sky, and they can sit and wait for them to reappear for 2000 years!! How dumb!!<BR/><BR/><B>see how easy it is to insult</B><BR/><BR/>By the way, I really felt the love of Jesus when you wrote that. Let me know if Jesus ever does come back.<BR/><BR/>Best regards,<BR/>Danielnsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147010634040191772006-05-07T10:03:00.000-04:002006-05-07T10:03:00.000-04:00How easy it is for anyone; an atheist, a scientist...How easy it is for anyone; an atheist, a scientist, so called theologian, so called ex-Christian to post whatever he wants on this site.<BR/>If any of you had any even a stain of your so called intelligence, education, whatever, you would at least know that only someone as dumb as you guys would beleive all this garbage you posted here.<BR/>I am a Christian and know many other Christians and we know that if one meets Jesus Christ, his life will never be the same.<BR/>I met Jesus and he is in my heart to say.<BR/>If this asinine site wasn't so stupid, I would laugh, but I can only shake my head at such ignorance as is on this site.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140351806809413112006-02-19T07:23:00.000-05:002006-02-19T07:23:00.000-05:00Steven- You said:"What evidence is there that the ...Steven- <BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>"What evidence is there that the disciples would risk their lives for something" <BR/><BR/>I assume you mean, what evidence is there that the disciples risked their lives? Otherwise, I am not sure I understand the question. <BR/><BR/>Assuming the latter meaning, I would say that there is ample evidence. All but John were martryed for their faith. <BR/><BR/>In response to your other statement, I would point you to the fourth chapter of Acts in particular the 2nd verse. <BR/><BR/>My questions were actually directed toward EB, due to the fact that he was a former believer. I am admittedly not an evidentialist, however I was interested in knowing what he now thought of evidences that he likely once accepted. <BR/><BR/>I am not sure of your background so it would be hard for me to presuppose how you would interpret any amount of evidence regardless how strong it is.Dan Dufekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646426861322857149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140339891678611242006-02-19T04:04:00.000-05:002006-02-19T04:04:00.000-05:00What evidence is there that the disciples would ri...What evidence is there that the disciples would risk their lives for something (I grant that they risked their lives for fishing, but that is beside the point)<BR/><BR/>Galatians 6 makes clear that Christians were persecuted on the issue of circumcision, not resurrection, and that Christian leaders would compromise their beliefs to avoid persecution for the cross (NB not resurrection) of ChristSteven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140291979363536722006-02-18T14:46:00.000-05:002006-02-18T14:46:00.000-05:00EB- I can identify, I am also finishing a degree. ...EB- <BR/><BR/>I can identify, I am also finishing a degree. <BR/><BR/>I will look forward to seeing your treatment of the issues raised.Dan Dufekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646426861322857149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140288049952943762006-02-18T13:40:00.000-05:002006-02-18T13:40:00.000-05:00SA,I'll have to deal with the issues you raise in...SA,<BR/><BR/>I'll have to deal with the issues you raise in subsequent posts.<BR/><BR/>I'm really behind on homework! :-(exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140287632446621092006-02-18T13:33:00.000-05:002006-02-18T13:33:00.000-05:00EB- Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I do under...EB- <BR/><BR/>Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I do understand the analogy (with Peter Cottontail and SC)although as you know we must agree to disagree as far its relation to the existence/nonexistence of God. <BR/><BR/>I am curious, as an ex-believer if you were to look at the first chapter of Romans what would you make of it today? Secondly,do you now deny the historicity of Jesus' life or just the resurrection? And finally what do you make of the willingness by the disciples to commit (with their very lives) to something that I assume you believe either didn't happen or was a legend? I know we have switched gears from Presuppositional apologetics to a more evidential one but I am curious what you do with the evidences?Dan Dufekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646426861322857149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140282883920604102006-02-18T12:14:00.000-05:002006-02-18T12:14:00.000-05:00streetapologist,You wrote: "I am interested in one...streetapologist,<BR/><BR/>You wrote: "I am interested in one point, you say you went from enjoying Plantinga to liberal Christianity. It seems you omitted some of the story."<BR/><BR/>I only intended to give a brief summary here. There was a lot that was omitted. The journey from Plantinga to liberal Christianity took about 6 years and it was an accumulation of things.<BR/><BR/>You asked, "I ask you in all humility are you willing to admit that you were indeed fooling yourself or do you really equate this transformation to the strength of the atheistic worldview? Are you now enjoying the solice that you were longing for? or are you once again being deceived by feelings."<BR/><BR/>My faith had always been a comfort to me. It was sad to leave it. <BR/><BR/>I don't mean to trivialize your faith at all here by this analogy, but I compare it with the enjoyment I had when I believed in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy. <BR/><BR/>When I was a kid, I loved thinking that a big fluffy bunny came into my room and left a basket. I loved the magic that the world held.<BR/><BR/>It would be nice to live in a world of magic. It would be wonderful to believe that after this life, I would never die and spend an eternity with my wife and friends in bliss.<BR/><BR/>But one day, when I got a little older, I figured out that there really was no Santa Claus or fluffy bunny bringing me a basket. I would have loved to have continued in that belief because it is a very nice belief. I just couldn't anymore.<BR/><BR/>Again, I'm not saying that your belief in a god is like a belief in Santa Claus. I'm just trying to relate to you the similarity of the feeling.<BR/><BR/>I can't believe in your god anymore than I can believe in Santa Claus. I'm just not capable of it anymore.<BR/><BR/>Atheism is not nicer or sweeter than theism, it's just (in my mind) more realistic.<BR/><BR/>I do lead a very happy and fulfilled life. I have a wonderful wife, family, and friends. I enjoy my work and my education. I enjoy having "conversations" with nice people like you and John Loftus. Atheism does not provide this for me, but it does not detract from it either.exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140268779443564622006-02-18T08:19:00.000-05:002006-02-18T08:19:00.000-05:00Exbeliever- I am interested in one point, you say ...Exbeliever- <BR/><BR/>I am interested in one point, you say you went from enjoying Plantinga to liberal Christianity. It seems you omitted some of the story. Is this because of time or for some personal reason? <BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/>"I didn't want to leave my faith"<BR/><BR/>Why would you then? You said how much you loved the church,praying, preaching etc. but yet you weren't finding fulfillment in this? I ask you in all humility are you willing to admit that you were indeed fooling yourself or do you really equate this transformation to the strength of the atheistic worldview? Are you now enjoying the solice that you were longing for? or are you once again being deceived by feelings.Dan Dufekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646426861322857149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140149844530327912006-02-16T23:17:00.000-05:002006-02-16T23:17:00.000-05:00Welcome. I eagerly await your words.Welcome. I eagerly await your words.The Jewish Freakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00959225860182589944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140149339178257732006-02-16T23:08:00.000-05:002006-02-16T23:08:00.000-05:00Paul,You wrote: "Anyway, you've shown that you are...Paul,<BR/><BR/>You wrote: "Anyway, you've shown that you are also ignorant (like John) on these issues. Frame taught Bahnsen in Seminary. Also, Frame had written presuppositionalist literature *before* the Bahnsen Stein debate."<BR/><BR/>I stand corrected again. Thanks.exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140147809342303712006-02-16T22:43:00.000-05:002006-02-16T22:43:00.000-05:00EB: "As a Calvinist collegiate, I was drawn to pre...EB: "As a Calvinist collegiate, I was drawn to presuppositionalism (this was, however, before Greg Bahnsen died and before anyone else (like Frame) had come on the scene;"<BR/><BR/>PM: Welcome, maybe we'll start seeing something with susbatnce now?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, you've shown that you are also ignorant (like John) on these issues. Frame taught Bahnsen in Seminary. Also, Frame had written presuppositionalist literature *before* the Bahnsen Stein debate. <BR/><BR/>So, Frame was on "the scene" before Bahnsen was.<BR/><BR/>Btw, "ignorant" was meant to be a technical term for: not well informed. So, I hope you don;t take it as a slam.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140139097788744152006-02-16T20:18:00.000-05:002006-02-16T20:18:00.000-05:00Those who have recently seen you argue already kno...<I>Those who have recently seen you argue already know they have their hands full when it comes to dealing with your arguments.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that's sure to fire them up! ;-) <BR/><BR/>As far as I can tell, though, they don't think so highly of my abilities.exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140137960048957382006-02-16T19:59:00.000-05:002006-02-16T19:59:00.000-05:00Thanks for coming on board. You have quite a stor...Thanks for coming on board. You have quite a story, and as we've discussed before, it is one that we share on many fronts. <BR/><BR/>Those who have recently seen you argue already know they have their hands full when it comes to dealing with your arguments. I'm just glad you're on my side!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com