tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post113970583199774194..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: The Outsider Test.....Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-74142103194713559492010-09-09T17:12:53.344-04:002010-09-09T17:12:53.344-04:00"strong undercurrent of spite" you say?
..."strong undercurrent of spite" you say?<br /><br />I love the little "FIY" at the end.<br /><br />ÓQuixiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03126711689901268060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-34006678011091410652009-07-17T13:36:03.452-04:002009-07-17T13:36:03.452-04:00Curious, you guys say that christians are biased a...Curious, you guys say that christians are biased and then you refuse to consider their argument by calling it a cop-out like the free-will stuff. doesn't it haunt you that you yourself are doing the same thing, being biased and just that the words are changed?That's the funny thing<br /><br />you must note that the dependency thesis does not hold true all the time though. We are generally acutely aware of universal truths like equalizing power of death(no one is exempt from death) that transcend through time <br /><br />I can't help but notice a tendency for a strong undercurrent of spite. The funny thing remains that for you guys, what you said would eventually do nothing in the long run when all of us are dead. so what's the point in so much anger or showing that you are superior? Even i am aware that my post have proven nothing in light of my impending death, but at least i get a few moments of laughs watching people argue themselves to their deathbeds. of course, this have to hold true for you guys right?<br /><br />FYI: For this conversation, i am unaligned, except for entertainment purposes. For all other occasions, I'm christianNyugen Chix (Chen Xingyu)https://www.blogger.com/profile/15228907140669018693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-76232310452885661342008-06-23T00:00:00.000-04:002008-06-23T00:00:00.000-04:00"Unless, perhaps, his arguments were perfect but t..."Unless, perhaps, his arguments were perfect but the choice they made was not purely down to reason, but because of a corrupt will they were absolutely determined to disbelieve him no matter what evidence he showed them"<BR/><BR/>God created these people right? So if he was truly omnipotent he would know exactly how to construct the message for these corrupt people to see the errors of their ways. The free will argument sounds like such a cop-out to me.SRMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11684370664852693488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-21391926812445700272008-03-03T16:40:00.000-05:002008-03-03T16:40:00.000-05:00I couldn't agree with you more on this issue.I've ...I couldn't agree with you more on this issue.<BR/><BR/>I've addressed this point - mind you, from a different angle. <BR/><BR/>You can check it out at http://roguechristain.blogspot.com/2007/09/three-syntheses-confession-of-faith-of.html'Seph Sayershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05849113554747254154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88914020184977723582007-07-18T22:28:00.000-04:002007-07-18T22:28:00.000-04:00For the sake of clarification, I would like to say...For the sake of clarification, I would like to say that it is not a "cold, hard fact" that you would be a Muslim if you born in Saudi Arabia. The chances are high, yes, but it is not the only option.<BR/><BR/>Plenty of people from every nearly every country in the world live overseas in other countries. They raise their kids according to their belief. For example, Swedes, Chinese and Americans live in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran without much problem. <BR/><BR/>I am an (formerly Christian) atheist living in Japan though I am an American. It would not be fair to say that all those born in Japan are Buddhist, Shintoist or atheists. There are nearly a million non-Japanese families living in Japan who produce their fair share of home-spun religious children (as well as non-religious, as will be the case with my new-born son).<BR/><BR/>Sorry to be stickler for details, but I couldn't help myself. The overall point is correct though, namely, that you are more likely to be raised agreeing with the nation's religious majority to the country in which you were born. It's simply a popularity/population issue. It's not like there's a Muslim-virus buried beneath the sands of Arabia or anything. <BR/><BR/>Well, at least not yet...OkiMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05694796843392602909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31815057953262331712007-02-14T17:50:00.000-05:002007-02-14T17:50:00.000-05:00Unless, perhaps, his arguments were perfect but th...Unless, perhaps, his arguments were perfect but the choice they made was not purely down to reason, but because of a corrupt will they were absolutely determined to disbelieve him no matter what evidence he showed them - which rather brings us back to the start of this thread again!<BR/>I'd suggest the majority of people in some countries are believers in that countries religion, not because they are unable to rise above their upbringing, but because to do so results in death. State law in Saudi Arabia is the death penalty for anyone who converts from Islam for instance.<BR/>In India, hundreds of thousands do leave Hinduism for Christianity each year, but you don't always want to endanger peoples lives by broadcasting official documents!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1169763168036730602007-01-25T17:12:00.000-05:002007-01-25T17:12:00.000-05:00"But note that even Jesus did not persuade the rel..."But note that even Jesus did not persuade the religious leadership of his day for they were in no frame of mind to apprehend his message or accept it."<BR/><BR/>Rich,<BR/><BR/>could that not be because Jesus in fact wasn't divine? I mean, surely the creator of the universe wouldn't be having any trouble whatsoever to perfectly communicate his will to all men, including religious leaders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160793337138814402006-10-13T22:35:00.000-04:002006-10-13T22:35:00.000-04:00From Rich Tatum:Yet, the test fails on a couple ke...From Rich Tatum:<BR/><BR/>Yet, the test fails on a couple key elements that cannot be changed. A) the varying abilities of people to communicate religious truth of whatever stripe"<BR/><BR/>This assumes that "religious truth" exists. The existence or non-existence of religious truth seems to be the heart of John's question. Hence the need for an "outsider test." Since we have no higher authority than this by which to establish the existence of "religious truth" perhaps we can learn something by stepping into the shoes or hat of another religion for a few minutes and see what things look like from there.RSMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15590239851722379588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140168202295444572006-02-17T04:23:00.000-05:002006-02-17T04:23:00.000-05:00Of course, but disagreement is not grounds for dis...Of course, but disagreement is not grounds for dismissal of the truth claims altogether.Rich Tatumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290320244688616885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1140019029407925162006-02-15T10:57:00.000-05:002006-02-15T10:57:00.000-05:00BlogRodent, thanks for commenting. Of course you'...BlogRodent, thanks for commenting. <BR/><BR/>Of course you'd want to stress that <I>Truth stands on its own merit, whether or not the prevailing worldview bows to it.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm sure the Muslim born in Saudia Arabia and the pre-civil war Southern plantation and slave owner would say the very exact same thing. Isn't that odd?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1139996909506124972006-02-15T04:48:00.000-05:002006-02-15T04:48:00.000-05:00The Outsider Test is a helpful reminde r to think ...The Outsider Test is a helpful reminde r to think of our faith from outside the religious mindscape we are inexorably trapped within.<BR/><BR/>Yet, the test fails on a couple key elements that cannot be changed. A) the varying abilities of people to communicate religious truth of whatever stripe and B) the varying abilities of people to apprehend what is being communicated. You might throw in, for good measure, C) the varying effectiveness of techniquies to influence and manipulate decisions--which religious cults that use "love bombing" and mind-control techniques excel at.<BR/><BR/>Were we all perfect communicators like Jesus, we might have better personal success rates at presenting the truth and eliciting positive response. But note that even Jesus did not persuade the religious leadership of his day for they were in no frame of mind to apprehend his message or accept it.<BR/><BR/>Truth stands on its own merit, whether or not the prevailing worldview bows to it. Scientific advances through the ages and the slow acceptance of majors paradigm shifts have demonstrated this withour reference to religious belief.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/><BR/>Rich<BR/><A HREF="http://tatumweb.com/blog/" REL="nofollow">BlogRodent</A>Rich Tatumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290320244688616885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1139937649038191192006-02-14T12:20:00.000-05:002006-02-14T12:20:00.000-05:00What we believe does not depend entirely on where ...What we believe does not depend entirely on <B>where we are born</B>. It also depends on <B>when we were born</B>, and what beliefs and conditions were there when we grew up. What would you believe if you were born during the Middle Ages, or during the Ancient superstitious days before the rise of modern science, Frontier days in America, pre-civil war days in the South, and even pre-depression era days, WWII days, Vietnam protest days, the greed decade of the 80's, and the microchip and cell phone revolution now? Is human reason that mallable? I think so.<BR/><BR/>None of this means there isn't any truth, moral or otherwise. But this is known as the <B>Dependency Thesis</B>, whereby what we believe depends upon these factors world-wide. Yep, that's right, world-wide. And while it doesn't prove anything about truth itself, it should give us all pause to consider the factors of where and when we were born, and whether or not we properly are evaluating our faith.<BR/><BR/>So, what exactly is wrong with the Outsider Test for your faith here, given what we know about the Dependency thesis? Why not?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1139842866808024772006-02-13T10:01:00.000-05:002006-02-13T10:01:00.000-05:00plenty on non-americans are becomming christians, ...plenty on non-americans are becomming christians, check the records.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, the objection raised is based on ignorant conjecture. It does *nothing* to disprove Christianity, now does it?Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1139793521924650012006-02-12T20:18:00.000-05:002006-02-12T20:18:00.000-05:00"And if a Christian must place reason below his fa..."And if a Christian must place reason below his faith, then how can he properly evaluate his faith in the first place.."<BR/><BR/>I pondered this subject a year or 2 ago. I boiled it down to the following question: "Which comes first, God or truth?"<BR/><BR/>* If God, then the pursuit of truth is abandonded (including tools of logic & reason).<BR/><BR/>* If truth, then the Christian is not placing God above all other things.<BR/><BR/>I independently asked 2 Christians this question. They both replied "God is truth". <BR/><BR/>Initially, their answer annoyed me because it seemed like a cop-out. But I gave it a few days of thought and eventually figured out what they meant.Chad Gouldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12218363389357762372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1139708412193199572006-02-11T20:40:00.000-05:002006-02-11T20:40:00.000-05:00A good analogy. Anything that gets you to suspend ...A good analogy. Anything that gets you to suspend your presuppositions long enough to take a long cold look at your faith.Zachary Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16991061670470673718noreply@blogger.com