Dr. Avalos on Pat Robertson's Haiti Comments

Written for Ames Iowa's The Tribune:
Haitians were just starting to be dug out from collapsed buildings, when Pat Robertson, the televangelist and former presidential candidate, told us he knew what had caused Haiti’s horrific earthquake.

Hint: It was not geology.

As Robertson phrased it on his show, The 700 Club (Jan. 13): “They (Haitians) were under the heel of the French ... And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said we will serve you if you get us free from the French.” Haiti’s earthquake and poverty are punishment for that pact.

Where do Robertson’s ideas come from? The earliest trace of any legend of a Haitian “pact to the Devil” is a book on the history of Haiti (titled, “Histoire de la Révolution de Saint-Domingue”) published in 1814 by a French inhabitant of Haiti named Antoine Dalmas.

According to Dalmas, on the first night of the Haitian revolution (Aug. 20 to 21, 1791), some slaves at a plantation drank the blood of a black pig sacrificed to an African deity. The ritual supposedly made participants invincible.

That’s pretty much it. Later writers added more dramatic and uncorroborated details, including an oath. Since the ceremony involved nothing beyond a few hundred slaves, it cannot be described as an entire nation making a pact.

Nonetheless, Dalmas describes a ceremony associated with Voodoo, the collective name for diverse African religious traditions, which were often combined with Christian elements, in Haiti.

Voodoo, now an officially recognized Haitian religion, was often denigrated as devil-worship by Christian slavemasters. Robertson simply continues this demonization of African religions.

And as for poverty being God’s punishment for Voodoo, a World Bank study, titled Social Resilience and State Fragility in Haiti (2007), calculates a poverty rate of 47 percent for Voodoo practitioners, 49 percent for Catholics and 51 percent for Baptists. Therefore, Haitian Christians actually are slightly poorer.

Furthermore, Haitian slaves did not see just the “French” as their oppressors. Haitians saw white Christians enslaving them. Since Christianity was not helping them, slaves appealed to their African gods. Slaves could argue the appeal worked because Haiti became the only nation established by a successful slave revolt.

However, Haitians paid a price for liberty. First, their revolution devastated the sugar industry, the heart of their economy. Revenues plummeted.

France also imposed a price of 150 million francs (perhaps tens of billions in today’s dollars) to recognize Haiti’s nationhood in 1825. Paying that debt with already limited resources proved difficult. It took Haiti until 1947 to pay it off.

Moreover, big slave-trading countries initially refused official recognition of Haiti’s nationhood in order to punish it for the sin of overthrowing slavery. The United States waited until 1862. This delay further distanced Haiti from all the benefits of trade that accompany recognized nationhood. Thus, much of Haiti’s poverty resulted from burdens imposed by outsiders.

And this brings me to Iowa pigs. The former president of Haiti, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, wrote a book called “Eyes of the Heart: Seeking a Path for the Poor in the Age of Globalization” (2000), which claims Iowa pigs impoverished Haiti even more.

According to Aristide, prior to the 1980s, Haiti used very hardy local (Creole) pigs that could withstand tropical heat and eat almost anything.

But, in 1982, international agencies, many influenced by the United States, convinced Haitians to slaughter their pigs because of concerns about a swine flu epidemic. The United States promised that better pigs would be substituted, and these came mostly from Iowa.

However, Iowa pigs required clean water, which was unavailable to 80 percent of Haitians. Special roofed pens had to be built because Iowa pigs were susceptible to the sun. While Haitian pigs ate anything, feed for American pigs cost $90 per year in a country where the annual per capita income was $130.

If a pig sacrifice helped to liberate Haiti in 1791, Haitians were being sacrificed to American pigs in the 1980s. Aristide claims that Haitian peasants lost $600 million in this fiasco (“Eyes of the Heart,” page 14).

So, if Robertson had read Haitian history, he might have spotted a club of Christian slave-trading nations, and not God, shaking the foundation of Haiti’s society and economy to this day.

Hector Avalos, a professor of religious studies at Iowa State University, writes monthly for The Tribune. His columns appear the first Sunday of the month.

Link

84 comments:

beowulf2k8 said...

So why were they trying to grow Iowa pigs exactly? And does this have anything to do with the swine flu?

Life said...

I just heard about your group. Thank you for being who you are and doing what you do. You are proof that the Bible is true. Thank you again.

Breckmin said...

o.k. So Pat Robertson is old and he screwed up. What does this have to do with reality?

Even the Christian Research Institute and others have condemned Pat Robertson's comments as appalling.

I also have a question for "Life."

How can you "thank" someone for being deceived and being judged the same way you could have been?

Your use of circular reasoning is also somewhat suspect.

Russ said...

Life,

The religious no longer exist in a world where churches and their clergy are the only source of information concerning the claims made by the religious. Today, we can all see through direct observation that religion does not live up to the claims it makes about its impact on it members or the world at large. At best the religious copy the things that the nonreligious do for others while they attribute it to some goofy supernatural something or other. None of us needs your version of a god or your inanely stupid Bible to live good moral meaning filled lives.

Regarding your statement,

You are proof that the Bible is true,

I can tell you that it is known that the Bible is not true in any sort of meaningful way. Most of humanity lives lives more exemplary of a moral caring compassionate existence than did any of the Jesuses depicted by the numerous extant Christianties and their interpretations of their Bible. Mankind is much better off today than it was during the lifetimes of the novelists who wrote your Bible. They were ignorant superstitious barbarians who respected violence like genocide, rape, and child abuse. If we take your Bible to mean what it says, then your Jesus was born to a woman raped by her father.

Your Bible is plainly dumb shit, Life. None of us needs it. None benefit from it but the clergy who get the money only a tiny fraction of which goes to help anyone.

It's laughable that you would say the Bible is true since few Christians actually read the Bible anyway. Clearly, Christians themselves don't see it as having enough usefulness that they can even be bothered to read it. Hell, even clergy don't bother with it, for the most part.

Think what you will, but the Bible is not true and Christian behaviors tell us that that is what they believe also. Christians themselves do not believe the Bible is true.

Jonathan said...

Eze 4:12
And thou shalt eat it [as] barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

The bible is true...

okay.

Life said...

I can see that there is not much intelligent conversation coming from this side...You may want to get Mr. Loftus...He might be able to help you...

Russ said...

Life,

Give us a break. Maybe you can blast us with some double-barrel theology or pummel us with philosophy of religion, but what you can't do is make a legitimate claim that the Bible is true. If the Bible was true, mankind would have seen it while Christianity was in complete control of the Western world for more than a thousand years. If the Bible was true, we would see it today; we don't. Christians lie about everything, but the numbers that would reflect the truth of their claims and the truth of their Bible do not lie.

When you introduce yourself by making the absurd statement,

You are proof that the Bible is true,

do you really expect to be taken seriously? Are you so naive as to think the Bible is true because it says it's true?

No one who thinks the Bible is true should be taken seriously. Do yourself a favor, get informed about your religion, your Bible, Christianity at large, and the entirety of the human community. It would enlighten you. The Bible true? what a crock.

Thanks, Jonathan. Couple things you might be interested in: Matt McCormack outlines some interesting research concerning people's morality and its relationship to their ideas about what their god says. Good stuff.

http://atheismblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/my-imaginary-friend.html

Great deconversion video on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQJrud71gL8

Very nicely done.

Cole said...

The Bible contains an immoral God. I know he is immoral because of God's moral law.


The god of the bible assists rape and plunder in the bible (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.



David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

Breckmin said...

"The Bible contains an immoral God. I know he is immoral because of God's moral law."

This is self-defeating because you have no moral standard by which to make such a claim against the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is a Holy Creator Who is Infinite and Owns the universe by the default that He created it. He is OMNISCIENT and the standard for objectivity.

How can a subjective moral appeal somehow judge an objective moral standard? This is incoherent and fails because there is no standard by which to appeal to - to "judge" that the Owner and Creator of the universe somehow did something "wrong."

Breckmin said...

the observation of rape doesn't mean that there were no choices made on the part of the enemies of God. In Zach 14:3 it even says that God will go forth and fight against those enemies who did the ravishing.

Cole said...

Brekmin,

My God isn't the god of the bible. There's nothing self-defeating about that.

I know the god of the bible is immoral because of the moral law which is grounded in the moral nature of the true God.

The scriptures I provided show that the god of the bible is immoral.

Cole said...

I'm a theist. Not a biblical theist.

Cole said...

The true God is the standard by which I judge the false god of the bible.

Breckmin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cole said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cole said...

Further proof that the god of the bible is immoral:

Psalms 137

8 O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, How blessed will be the one who repays you With the recompense with which you have repaid us.
9 How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

My God doesn't do things like this.

beowulf2k8 said...

"This is self-defeating because you have no moral standard by which to make such a claim against the God of the [Old Testament]."

What about the apple that he didn't want us to eat because if we ate it we'd know the difference between good and evil and then know that he was evil? From that point on he made it his purpose to give as inconsistent of a written law as possible in order to steal back that knowledge of good and evil that we stold, and those who follow/worship the Old Testament god to this day have lost the knowledge of good and evil through slavish belief in that text. Thank the Good God the Heavenly Father for sending Jesus Chrestos to destroy the works of the OT god.

Jim said...

Breckmin,

We simply reject that your God is any objective standard.

God is a character in a Bible written by fallible humans, translated by fallible humans, and interpreted by fallible humans.

There is nothing "objective" about it.

Yes, you try to win by "definition." Christians have "created" a God and "defined" Him with a set of attributes.

It's bat-shit crazy to think that means that you actually know this thing that you've created in your mental exercise.

I also reject the notion that anything that creates something has some automatic moral justification to do "whatever it wants" with it's creation. That mode of thought is somehow distinctively and disturbingly Christian. Yes, the entity may have the ABILITY, but ability doesn't mean the moral or ethical right. That requires moral and ethical thinking--which we are each capable of doing ourselves. Call me a nihilist--there is no such thing as objective morals. Whatever we (as humans) call objective morality is simply what we (mostly) agree on. Which surprisingly (not) for most of humanity matches a few (but not all) the Ten Commandments. That's because the Ten Commandments were just as much a product of feeble human ethical/moral thinking as the prohibitions on seafood and agriculture.

Jonathan said...

@cole

You are creating God to fit your standards, you are becoming your own God.

Religion is a cultural artifact reflected from historical, geographical and ethnic viewpoint.


The Hebrews were introverted, foreign wife fearing, sin fetish worshiping, masochistic, parental abusive, xenophobic, (only born from a female Hebrew etc) and violent society.

The Hebrews are not known for their empire building, exploring, ship building, architecture, science, literature, philosophy, art, etc.

The Hebrews were considered a backwater compared to Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans.
Even so the cultures that surrounded showed more curiosity of the Hebrew culture then the Hebrews of their neighbors.


Yea, the Egypitian's had morals too.
Egyptian Book of the Dead, Chapter 125
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/EGYPT/BOD125.HTM

There is virtually nothing in OT that should be emulated by any present day society.

It does a great disservice to emulate ancient religious text in present day society, the metaphors do not work. Those of the religious have to perform some heavy verbal yoga moves in order to make the OT sound relevant but usually fail at the attempt.

Religion in ancient societies provided an important stepping stone towards our present development. However religious practices and belief in one age do not translate well in another. The opposite is true they act as a stumbling block.

You don't need the bible if the bottom line "treat people as you expected to treated". If Christians, especially Christians (Muslims too) had followed this there would probable less debate on its validity. They would of become less dogmatic on things like age of the earth or creationism, but towards the better treament of others.

Cole said...

Hey Jonathan,

I don't believe I'm God or becoming my own God. As they say in A.A.:

There's a God and I'm not it.

Gandolf said...

Jonathan said... "Those of the religious have to perform some heavy verbal yoga moves in order to make the OT sound relevant but usually fail at the attempt."

Yeah thats so true. These days it like religious folks need to almost be a full time practicing professional contortionist.Model their side-step type theology moves, like as if they were moves of the famous contortionist Daniel Browning Smith! who goes by the nickname of "Rubberboy"

Christian Agnostic said...

Hi Russ, my apologies for disappearing from the Sam Harris comment stream.

I must take issue with some of the things you have said,

"I can tell you that it is known that the Bible is not true in any sort of meaningful way."

It depends upon what you mean by 'true'. Many passages of scripture do not purport to be scientific or historical truth "per se" in the modern sense, rather they are a disparate collection of ancient writings written for a variety of purposes, in a different time. In academic circles there are minimalists and maximalists who disagree about the extent to which the Bible contains verifiably true historical statements.

"Most of humanity lives lives more exemplary of a moral caring compassionate existence than did any of the Jesuses depicted by the numerous extant Christianties and their interpretations of their Bible."

I think this is a very questionable statement. There is as much cruelty, neglect, apathy, violence and pain today as there was in Jesus' day. There is chronic suffering on a global scale, most of it due to man's inhumanity towards his fellow man. And those documents concerning Jesus we do have portray him as a man seeking to alleviate human suffering...



"Mankind is much better off today than it was during the lifetimes of the novelists who wrote your Bible. They were ignorant superstitious barbarians who respected violence like genocide, rape, and child abuse"

Biblical writers were not novelists in any modern or ancient sense. There are some passages in the Bible that seem to condone genocide, but they are not the overarching theme of the Bible and they seem to reflect the norms and values of the time in which they were written. I think it is a statement too far to say that they condoned rape and child abuse.

"Your Bible is plainly dumb shit, Life. None of us needs it. None benefit from it but the clergy who get the money only a tiny fraction of which goes to help anyone"

I think this name calling displays a certain contempt for the viewpoint of another person that mitigates against reaching a place of constructive dialogue. Plainly many people benefit from religious belief (This has nothing to do with whether it is true or not). Plainly many people derive comfort and inspiration from scripture. My father is a clergyman and I can tell you that he earns £23000 a year as a 62 year old man who has been qualified for 30 years. To claim that he derives financial benefit from his job especially when you work out the number of hours spent visiting the sick, eldery, infirm, lonely people of the parish is laughable.

It seems to me that you have a profound bias against people of faith that is stopping you from being able to acknowledge much of the good that is done in the name of religion.

Gandolf said...

Cole said... >The Bible contains an immoral God. I know he is immoral because of God's moral law.

About what Cole had wrote, Breckmin then said...> "This is self-defeating because you have no moral standard by which to make such a claim against the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is a Holy Creator Who is Infinite and Owns the universe by the default that He created it. He is OMNISCIENT and the standard for objectivity."

----------------------

It is self defeating and the truth is either Cole or Breckmins faith could be (suggested) to possibly be correct.But so could absolutely anybody be correct,which is why there is no way to actually determine what one? faith in the whole world, is actually the standard correct faith?.

Because none!! have any higher supernatural objective standard to appeal to that we can use to tell what is.

The nearest we can come is maybe people dreaming/devining that supposedly "they think",they might?? have had some premonition or omen or vision.

It relys on hearsay.No differnt than it was also back in biblical times,than it is also today! when Benny Hinn supposedly cures all type of deseases on stage.

You can almost be pretty sure also,that by the time another thousand years passes by....That stories about old Benny Hinn miracles on stage, accounts will have likely changed tremendiously, and hell maybe they will have even grown!.Maybe not only were limbs healed by Benny,but future stories might grow and evolve and suggest Bennys prayers created supernatural limbs! that went on to win all the victims some gold medals at the olimpic games.

Cole might say this and that is such and such! what i think about God,but this is all a "standard" coming through Coles thoughts

Breckmin could suggest what he thinks!,but the "standard" is still (mere human), but except this time its coming through "thoughts of Breckmin".

If Breckmin even suggests the christian bible,absolutely nothing changes!, other than Breckmin (making an appeal to the authority standard) of (ancient human men).

Every single faith that there ever was thought of in this whole wide world!, (appeals only to the authority) of knowledge and thoughts of the mere human or mere humans, that are actually thinking up all the thoughts about it.

Cole said.....>"I don't believe I'm God or becoming my own God."

But Cole absolutely all faith beliefs there ever was thought of on this earth,only came about, by thoughts of humans who were becoming god by imagining what they thought maybe he might be like and want.

So it makes no difference


Folks who thought up the modern FSM god,really did little different than folks of old who thought up christianity.

For instance say the Christian faith,took parts of some earlier older sacrificial type faiths, and also added some them into parts of their "newer christian" brand faith rituals.

Modern kids lately also then formed a newer belief whos god is called the FSM,replaced the old christian faith god.

But the modern FSM faith,actually also adopted some parts of the older christian faith.Like the "thought" that maybe certain things caused things to happen, (just like how christian faith had thoughts that sin might cause earthquakes etc).

The belief of the FSM faith instead suggests--> "the argument that "global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of pirates since the 1800s."

Faiths have evolved.And all from thoughts of mere men.

Gandolf said...

Christian Agnostic said..."Plainly many people benefit from religious belief (This has nothing to do with whether it is true or not). Plainly many people derive comfort and inspiration from scripture"

Hey maybe plainly some folk also derive comfort from the knowledge in some African villages,that local people acused of being witches, have been found and finally been killed.

These people feel comforted! with their spiritual thoughts,and knowledge that they hope the devilish spells faithfully said to exist, will now supposedly cease!

Russ said----" plainly dumb shit "..... "None of us needs it."

I agree .

Life said...

Russ,

I thought I would be able to get good intelligent conversation but all I run into is hatred, criticism, and condemnation. You did not even ask why I said the Bible is true based on what you are and what you are doing. You just assume everything you say about me is true without even knowing me or what I believe or think. I guess that is called stereotyping and again if someone that is able to have a good intelligent conversation is available please come forth. The Bible talks about you Russ and you don't even know it.

Jonathan said...

@life

What you did originally was a hit and run. You make a vague comment like “the bible is true” and then run way. You could have easily explained why you “think” the bible is true.
“The bible is true?”, Really, what does that mean?
“Dark fudge chocolate ice cream is true”, “puppies are true”, “2 + 5 = 7 is true.” Wait, that is true.

Saying something is “true” doesn’t make any “truer” Unless you explain why you think its true. Then even if you think its true it doesn’t mean it is.


What intelligent conversation are you looking for "Life"?

Saying the bible talks about Russ, I am sure the bible talks about you as well.

:P



@ Christian agnostic

Exactly what did Jesus do?
1) Fed some fish and bread at a party
2) Turned Water into wine
3) Walked on water
4) Healed some people
5) Exercised some demons
6) Calmed some waters

And these are miracles?

What Would Jesus Not Do?
http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector#p/u/6/zOfjkl-3SNE


This is way underwhelming.

Think of all the things what Jesus didn’t teach, didn’t tell, and didn’t’ do. I really think this video tells it all.

To claim that he derives financial benefit from his job especially when you work out the number of hours spent visiting the sick, eldery, infirm, lonely people of the parish is laughable.

I am guessing you never heard of “property gospel or televangelists. How much money does it take to run the Vatican, The Anglican Church or all the Mosques of Islam?

How much money is diverted just to administer the various faiths? Billions? What if all that money was diverted into health care? Would that alleviate suffering? Does your father preach creationism, ban condom use, vote against gay marriage, and preach non-believers are going to hell? It seems your father should have worked in the Heath care system considering what he is doing. At least he wouldn’t be carry the extra baggage.

Russ said...

Life said

Russ,

I thought I would be able to get good intelligent conversation

Much good intelligent conversation can be had with theologists and philosophers of religion without ever concerning oneself with the veracity of the topic. How do I know? Lots of my family members are clergy, theologists, and tenured professors of philosophy of religion at big-name universities, and many of the same are atheists. We have good intelligent conversations about religious ideas all the time without ever thinking, believing or asserting any of them to be true. Yet, the veracity of it is far more important than the simplistic ability to use it as impetus for non-consequential conversation.

People are dying right now, this very minute, because they or those who they trust or depend on believe the words written in the Bible or the words spoken by Christian authority figures. The AIDS plague in Africa is being continuously worsened by Roman Catholics who believe but never consider veracity. Children are being massacred as witches, many by their own parents, because the parents believe but never think about veracity. Hundreds of children die in the US every year from easily treated medical conditions while their parents lay on hands or pray, because those parents believe but never give veracity a second thought. In all these cases many of the victims would live if they were cared for by Muslims, Hindus, atheists or even a different variety of Christian.

Will good intelligent conversation save any of these people? No.


but all I run into is hatred, criticism, and condemnation.

Christianity deserves to be hated, criticized and condemned since it has proven itself incapable of eliminating the pain and suffering caused by those among its own ranks. Right now millions of people the world over suffer due directly to Christianity. What's more is that the rest of Christianity turns a blind eye and a deaf ear to the suffering caused by their fellow Christians. The hatred, criticism and condemnation is deserved.


You did not even ask why I said the Bible is true based on what you are and what you are doing.

What I am is a personally responsible moral decision maker who observes that the claims made by the religious are not true, and, to boot, those claiming to believe do not even approximate behavior that would suggest they themselves think it to be true.

What I am doing is pointing out that Christianity is whatever its adherents decide it will be, not the result of what some deity has laid down. It is a fact that there is no monolithic entity going by the name "Christianity:" there are thousands, many of which you would not want to be associated with, and many others which you quite likely would not recognize as a Christianity but for their having the name. Another curious fact is that the notion of a Christian deity is naught but fistful of smoke: vague, amorphous, and ungraspable. While you may have personally hybridized your very own species of Christianity to play with, your species is yours, and the species trotted about by others is theirs.

Russ said...

Life said,

You just assume everything you say about me is true without even knowing me or what I believe or think.

By claiming at the outset that the Bible is true, you are also telling us that you have every intention of apologizing away all its factual defects, contradictions too numerous to mention, and reprehensible moral failings. With your claim that the Bible is true you have told us that you will intentionally embrace and defend the absurd and the inhumane, and that you have no compunction about lying outright, ignoring relevant real-world facts, or deceiving others with semantic games where the word "true" takes on a life of its own, at your discretion, of course. We're supposed to accept that you, the religious one, get to make up the rules and lay down the assumptions. We're supposed to accept that your "faith" either exempts you from having to agree with observed reality or that you get to redefine reality so it fits your "faith," the rest of humanity be damned.

It's unfortunate for you, but it doesn't actually work that way any more.

Will you demonstrate that your god exists?
No.

Do Christians distinguish themselves in any way that would suggest to us that the Bible is true or that any of their myriad deities exist? No. Are they more loving, caring, happy, healthy, generous, kind, or compassionate than, say, the pre-dominantly atheist societies of northern Europe?
No.

As for the details, it's true that I don't know you or what you believe or think, but am I to blame for the word "Christian" being meaningless? Do you expect everyone outside the Christianities to research all 40000 formally recognized distinct Christian denominations and the tens of thousands more Christian splinter groups and fringe dwellers so that we can understand what you mean when you say the word Christian? If you are a Christian, I can show you tens of thousands of other Christianities that refute your Christian-specific claims. None should take the Christianities seriously since in every cockamamy notion ever conceived by the imagination of man is embraced by some Christianity somewhere. For instance, in the book The Family, Hitler, Stalin and Mao are looked upon with great respect by Christians for how they used authoritarian power to institute new social orders.


I guess that is called stereotyping

Are you telling us that you are unique among Christians? Are you denomination 40001? If you really don't want to be stereotyped, don't announce yourself to be a member of the "the Bible is true" stereotype. If you want Christianity to be more than a meaningless stereotype, work at bringing some humanity to it by eradicating the on-going horrors brought on by being Christian.


and again if someone that is able to have a good intelligent conversation is available please come forth.

Self-aggrandizing Christians are culpable for the death, torture and maiming of thousands of people every day and you come asking us to provide you with the diversion of good intelligent conversation. Will good intelligent conversation reverse the effects of a Christian parent turning a blowtorch on their child to drive out demons, or will good intelligent conversation just help to keep you, dear Christian, from thinking about it?

Russ said...

Life said,

The Bible talks about you Russ and you don't even know it.

Ooh, that's some scary shit, right there. Now, I'm scarred for life. Doomed to a psychological miasma of fear of a non-existent god recounted in the observably false myths, legends, and fables of ignorant superstitious barbarians.

Yes, Life, the Bible talks about anything you say it does, right? Damn! you can even read the Bible and somehow end up with a truly twisted notion of a loving father. This father can't explain things clearly and doesn't make it known that he actually exists, and, then, when people don't behave as though they understand, this loving father destroys everyone except eight adults, including every single newborn, infant, and toddler on the planet, while he spares rattlesnakes, crawdads, and naked mole rats. Hell, Lot the rapist was spared because he was the righteous one. Abraham listens to the loving father's voice of violence and becomes a disgusting model for the vulgar notion of faith. Yes, Life, the Bible talks about lots of stuff, but trying to get something useful from it is like diving for a nickel in a cesspool.

I know what the Bible says, Life. I've read it; I've studied it. It's bad literature; it's bad as a moral handbook; it's useless as an historical account; it's more than useless as a reflection of the natural world and its origin; and, it has shown itself worthless for uniting people in all but a superficial parochial and highly self-centered way. As I said in an earlier comment, Christians don't read the Bible and fortunately, they do not act like they believe it.

Peace.

Life said...

Jonathon,

The statement actually read "thank you for being who you are and doing what you do. You are proof that the Bible is true." That speaks pretty clear about why I said the Bible is true. That is not a hit and run statement. A hit and run statement would say the Bible is true and then run. The Intelligent question from your side would have been. What are we doing to make you think the Bible is true? That's not too hard to say is it? The Bible told me that there would be people in the future who would do exactly what you are doing and say exactly what you are saying. Let me know if I am losing you on any of this I know I am going kind of fast. That is pretty good for a book you believe is not true and yet it told me you would be here doing what you are doing.

Jonathan said...

@ life

Do you have any comments that you would like to share regarding:

"Dr. Avalos on Pat Robertson's Haiti Comments"

*Do you agree with Robertson's statement or not?

*Do you agree with Dr. Avalos statement or not?

Lets do our best on keeping on topic so the discussion doesn't get too unwieldy.

If you wish to add to this discussion then by all means, but if you intend to monopolize it, with your own unrelated topic, you will be talking to yourself.


see ya.

Russ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Russ said...

Life said,

The Bible told me that there would be people in the future who would do exactly what you are doing and say exactly what you are saying. Let me know if I am losing you on any of this I know I am going kind of fast. That is pretty good for a book you believe is not true and yet it told me you would be here doing what you are doing.

Sure. When you're a charlatan who knows you're saying things expressly to scare people into believing your bullshit, it makes perfect sense that you would further dupe the faithful with a preemptive caveat like, "Some people will recognize what we say as bullshit and they won't be shy about saying so."

If I make statements known to be false I can accurately - and without some god telling me - predict that people in the future will recognize that fact and say so. Not exactly supernatural, huh?

Yet, it impresses you that some of those concocting the Bible knew that they were lying and used that knowledge to create a prophesy. Wow.

I predict that in the future some people will eat cauliflower. Some will say, "yum" while others will say, "yuck." Are you impressed?

Life said...

Thanks Jonathon,

I do not agree with Pat Robertson's staement. He, like most Christians, talk out of their flesh rather than the Spirit. It does not represent God or Jesus or anyone just becasue he said it. I understand why most of you are fet up with Christianity as a whole. The only thing I say is that you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just becasue a large number of Christians behave and believe that way does not mean the rest do. I have been here on this blog for only 2 days and have received hatred, criticism, and condemenation without asking me anything. This is the exact rreason why Mahatma Gandhi never became a Christian. The same treatment evidently works on both sides which is sad for all of us.

Jonathan said...

@Russ

Russ let it go...

Life claims the bible "talks" to him. Doesn't that saying anything?

The dictionary talks to me too, it says you can't spell.

Life had no interest in the topic or Life would of stated such.

Basically anyone claims the bible is true isn't saying anything all.

Now, Christian agnostic is a different story..

Jonathan said...

@life


I have been here on this blog for only 2 days and have received hatred, criticism, and condemnation without asking me anything.


Dude! What part of "Post a Comment On:" didn't you get? No ones was going to ask you, it is a given you are going to comment on the article.

I just heard about your group. Thank you for being who you are and doing what you do. You are proof that the Bible is true. Thank you again.


With this statement, and you didn't want to start a augment? Sorry, but them is fighting words, subtle, but still...

Just because a large number of Christians behave and believe that way does not mean the rest do.

1. Right, Just claiming your a Christian doesn't explain anything.

2. Robertson gets a lot of support even from moderate "Christians "who overlook" this little sound bites of his.

3. The problem is a lot of Christians do believe this and support Robertson no matter what he says.

Thanks for clarifying your statement of your original intentions but in the future. State your grievances or support first add on later.

Thanks

Jonathan.

Christian Agnostic said...

Life wrote,

"How much money is diverted just to administer the various faiths? Billions? What if all that money was diverted into health care? Would that alleviate suffering? Does your father preach creationism, ban condom use, vote against gay marriage, and preach non-believers are going to hell? It seems your father should have worked in the Heath care system considering what he is doing. At least he wouldn’t be carry the extra baggage."

Life I was raised as the child of missionaries. Although I'm English I was raised in Paraguay and attended a fundamentalist missionary Christian school which was staffed mainly by American missionaries.

More then you will ever know I understand the abuses of religion. The worldview distortions, the biases and the downsides of bad religion. But for every Jimmy Swaggart and prosperity racketeer there are 10 people like my dad. Theologically he is a universalist believing that all will be saved. He is socially liberal and a theistic evolutionist who accepts the modern scientific paradigm as do I. Or in the neighbouring parish one of my dad's colleagues who's disabled daughter died so he adopted two profoundly disabled boys who he brings up with his wife as well ministering to the Parish.

The psychological benefits of community-based engagement are well-attested to by countless pieces of research. Church networks are sources of human contact, engagement and provide countless social functions. Soup kitchens, educational programs, childcare, counselling services, marital advise.

Churches, like many other third sector voluntary organisations, play an extremely important role in societal cohesion. To dismiss all of this is preposterous. And even if the whole of Christianity(ies) was proven to be a complete falsehood and lie (Which it won't and can't be proven to be), they would still provide these benefits. They don't depend on the demonstrable veracity of doctrinal truth claims. The majority of believers are moderate in their viewpoints and have a genuine desire to become better people.

Gandalf said

"Hey maybe plainly some folk also derive comfort from the knowledge in some African villages,that local people acused of being witches, have been found and finally been killed."

In the African context there are traditional pre-Christian religions with witch doctors in positions of power where child sacrifice is not unknown. The Christianisation of such societies has led to many being liberated from oppressive systems.

Gandolf said...

Jonathan said... "Life claims the bible "talks" to him. Doesn't that saying anything?"

Yeah my truck must be a messiah too.It predicted for me that the clutch plate i replaced the other day,most likely wont go lasting forever.Quite likely there will come a time when my clutch will be seen to not really be working because the gears are grating on mental.

And lo and behold many people in those later days,will "very likely" all claim...Gandolf we think your clutch is become worthless!! ..Maybe its time you need to be finding a new one

Life said...>"The Bible told me that there would be people in the future who would do exactly what you are doing and say exactly what you are saying. Let me know if I am losing you on any of this I know I am going kind of fast."

Yes Life you are pretty quick alright,quick to form conclusions.But maybe folks need to slow you down a bit, throw a few questions out there first as a life line and get you really doing some honest scientific type thinking, before they all agree to simply following you like bands of rats that follwed the pied piper.

A gang group being liars and thieves, who`s actions were well known everywhere! to always seem to annoy certain people,were known to be moving into another town to set up another front for their business.

Before they even moved in many people were already predicting, many towns folk would most certainly soon utterly dislike their presense in this town they were moving to.It was predicted to be almost certain,that in time very many people would likely soon be digusted! in the way this gang mentality had infected society, caused devision,sadness,and recruited family members to become heartless people uncaring of how their "crime faith" actually effected everyone.

Life please lend us you inteligence again for a second for some more of your inteligent type discussion.

Would you considder these predictive townsfolk were all likely to be jesus type modern day messiah also?.

They wrote this stuff in the paper in letters to the editor ,so these predictions were recorded in newspaper which is kind of like a bible, recording some history!,some stories!,some adverts! and lo and behold even seems also some predictions!

Is this good sign of supernatural phenomena?

Christian Agnostic said...

I meant Jonathan not Life!

Breckmin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Breckmin said...

"What about the apple that he didn't want us to eat"

There are theories about which "fruit" it was...it wasn't an apple. It was referred to as a "fruit."


"because if we ate it we'd know the difference between good and evil"

Having a God created conscience to DO good is different from the "knowledge of" both good and evil. The latter has to be learned.


"and then know that he was evil?"

Non-sequitur.

It is philosophically impossible for the Standard for Good in the universe He created to be somehow "evil." God is perfectly Good, Holy, Righteous and in Him there is no evil at all (until you understand this correctly you will not understand the REAL problem of evil and the purpose of the temporary creation).

"From that point on he made it his purpose to give as inconsistent of a written law as possible"

incorrect also. The purpose of the Law was to reveal to human kind that we were all sinful (like a mirror). This was to reveal to us the fact that we NEEDED a Sacrifice for sins. The Hebrews offered up sacrifices for their sins. This pointed to a future Savior.

"in order to steal back that knowledge of good and evil that we stold,"

Knowledge is something you "learn" it is not something you steal. You could argue that they were guilty of "stealing the fruit" from the tree...but this is NOT exactly stealing knowledge. This is rather a self-judgement of self-corruption (a corruption which was necessary and inevitable, btw).


"and those who follow/worship the Old Testament god to this day have lost the knowledge of good and evil through slavish belief in that text."

What you are asserting is completely illogical. Until you have a correct view of theodicy, the Fall of Adam will never make sense to you... If you understood HOW sin/disobedience was a inevitable potential byproduct of volition(choice) without motive and knowledge to never commit such..then you could be on the correct road to understanding the temporary creation.

In true love you can't say yes if you can't say no. Saying 'no' is a bad thing to say to a Holy and Righteous Creator. The potential for saying "no" has to be dealt with for God's children that He loves and is not willing that any of them should perish...

Salvation in the temporary creation will teach God's Self-Sacrificing Love and God's Incredible Grace for all of eternity to sustain His children. It will give them the motive and the KNOWLEDGE to finally have "free will" for all of eternity...kept by God's grace.

Free from the potential bondage and consequences of sin....through the Power of the Eternal Glory of Love through Jesus Christ.

Love's right to exist trumps evil's inevitable existence.

Question everything.

Breckmin said...

"But so could absolutely anybody be correct,"

Question. What if an Omniscient Creator knew/knows that only ONE soteriological pathway was/is absolutely true? Could everyone else still be absolutely correct?


"which is why there is no way to actually determine what one?"

What if the Creator worked through people and you could see indicators? A specific type of prayer, type of worship, praise songs, etc.

"faith in the whole world, is actually the standard correct faith?."

What if it was also "faith in evidence" or following a particular logic?

A sort of progression which starts with the logical fallacy of explicit atheism and looks at evidence which leads to agnostic theism, which then leads to a dissection of comparative religions, which then leads to a conclusion of Orthodox Monotheism, which then leads to evidence out of Judaism, Islam, Christianity and born-again Christianity which leads to the choice of the latter?

Why can't faith be a logical choice based on evidence and a conviction of God's Holy SPirit to open our eyes up to such Logic which flows from the Creator? Why do you assert that it "has to be" fideism?

"Because none!! have any higher supernatural objective standard to appeal to that we can use to tell what is."

What about personal releationships corroborating miracles? What about personal experience which corroborates things revealed through the prophets and apostles?

Once again...why can't ONE be correct?

"The nearest we can come is maybe people dreaming/devining that supposedly "they think",they might?? have had some premonition or omen or vision."

What about miracles? Which God uses to validate missionaries who preach born-again Christianity?

"It relys on hearsay."

Except to those of us who OBSERVE.

"No differnt than it was also back in biblical times,than it is also today!"

You can't change the way in which history was recorded...regardless of whether it meets 20th/21st Century standards for evidence.

I'll go with orthodoxy which is corroborated by personal experience and personal relationship.

It is much more logical to believe in a Creator (with the corroboration of evidence) then to believe in no objective meaning (since the sun that will eventually burn out distroying our solar system). I don't believe in accidents.

They are anthropomorphic in scripture.

beowulf2k8 said...

"The purpose of the Law was to reveal to human kind that we were all sinful" (Breckmin)

By telling us to kill all the Midianite males and women who aren't virgins but keep the young virgin girls alive for the after-genocide orgy? (Read Numbers 31)

The Law's purpose was to confuse our sense of morality and thus take away the knowledge of good and evil that we took in eating the 'apple.' This is unquestionably the truth and you are just being a moron.

Life said...

thanks Jonathon...i appreciate it...

Life said...

Thanks Gandolf. Your right! You said you wanted me to do some honest scientific type thinking. Okay I have a question for everyone. What is the probability of 50 years before Gandolf was born that someone would be able to tell you, not any relatives, what his name would be, where he would be born, What his purpose of living would be, The method or way he would live, what his occupation would be, Specific things he would do, and When he would die, How he would die, Okay Gandolf and others, what is the probability of that happening? I am referring to a calculated scientific probability of eight things being predicted about Gandolf 50 years before he was born.

Jonathan said...

@Life

I think I know where you are going with this regarding your question to Gandolf.

But I will withhold judgment untill then.

Jonathan said...

Paraguay Demographics Religion as of 2002
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguay#Religion
90% Roman Catholic
6% Evangelical Christian
1% other Christian
1% indigenous religion
2% ?

Paraguay is a primarily a Roman Catholic nation. The increase of American Christian fundamentalism is not converting the non-Christian but to convert the Roman Catholic to American style Christianity.

Missionary’s main purpose is conversion and uses charity as means to win the hearts of the non-Christian. Historically Christians have an incredible intolerance for native religious faith even when it’s in regards to other Christians (RC).

Question CA

In Paraguay why functions like healthcare, childcare, education, and etc are are not provided by the state? Doesn’t England proved such services from taxes and without the religious overtones?

Charitable organizations
Can you name any country that has left its 3rd world status because of charity?

Christianisation of such societies has led to many being liberated from oppressive systems.

Oh, really Africa is a bastion for democratic nations?

Gandolf said...

Life..."Okay Gandolf and others, what is the probability of that happening? I am referring to a calculated scientific probability of eight things being predicted about Gandolf 50 years before he was born."

Life i am interested in the situation you discribe.But so far i feel im left in the lurch with to much guess work! to do, to be able to be involved in making any honest informed decisions.

I feel i just dont know enough information.Like the particular situation? surrounding the matter and who was involved etc,what relationships they had to the situation etc.

We need all this information so we can cross check and apply all the different scenario,before deciding how we best think maybe things might have been possible.

Im not knocking anything you might be suggesting Life.Just reminding you how important it is for humans to look for all the information! and then considder every angle!, so to make informed decisions.

Gandolf said...

Breckmin said... "God is perfectly Good, Holy, Righteous and in Him there is no evil at all"

By use of what standard do you use to judge this?.

Jonathan said...

@Gandolf

I think "Life" is referring to the prophecies in the bible referring to Jesus.

Just a guess.

PS

Non Stamp collector
http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector

I think this guy is great, check him out!

Believers' Inferences About God's Beliefs Are Uniquely Egocentric

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091130151321.htm

Good article!

Gandolf said...

Breckmin said... "If you understood HOW sin/disobedience was a inevitable potential byproduct of volition(choice) without motive and knowledge to never commit such.."

Breckman is your argument from the angle gods supposedly created man with some sort of type perfection nature.

For instance. Unable to fall into any confusion! and make mistakes! etc ?

Gandolf said...

Cheers Jonathan !.

Understanding faithful folks headspace and what angle they might be coming from is like trying to become a water Dowser

Cole said...

"Breckmin said... "God is perfectly Good, Holy, Righteous and in Him there is no evil at all"

By use of what standard do you use to judge this?."

Good one!

I would just say my God is the standard of perfection. This would rule out the false god of the bible.

Gandolf said...

Breckmin said... "Question. What if an Omniscient Creator knew/knows that only ONE soteriological pathway was/is absolutely true? Could everyone else still be absolutely correct?"

Very good Breckman.(Clapping)

Now by what standard? will you use to decide this omniscient creator who knows that ONE soteriological pathway was/is absolutely true?.

Your standard?
Ask Jim bob down the road what he thinks?
The bible?
Koran?
Ask some alien what he reckons?
Find a talkin donkey and ask him?

If you cant appeal to the/a correct standard and prove to me it is the correct standard ...With factual reasons why humans should see good reason to agree!?

We have absolutely no proper standard to even use to start going about trying to decide from!

So i re-rest my previous suggestion again Breckmin !

Gandolf suggested quote..> "But so could absolutely anybody be correct,"

Anybody could be correct!.Just as everybody could be incorrect!

P.S ...faith alone is not "good reason"!

If (faith alone) was logical to be thought "good reason" ..Then people would always have good reason to have faith in infinite ammounts of all manner of imaginal things.

"Imagine" the utter idiotic chaos! that would/could likely develope if we humans used that standard!, Breckmin

The world would really turn crazy!

Jonathan said...

Cole Said
I would just say my God is the standard of perfection. This would rule out the false god of the bible.

Cole, uh.. What God are you talking about, in that matter... What religion are you talking about?

When you say "My God" is this or that, it seems that "God" belongs to you.

Does "God" belong to you?

Is sure sounds like it.


Gandolf, did you watch the vid? What do you think?

Cole said...

Jonathan,

I don't have a religion anymore. It's the God I have experienced as Good. I'm refering to what I call the Creator of the Cosmos.

Gandolf said...

Jonathan..."Believers' Inferences About God's Beliefs Are Uniquely Egocentric

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/
11/091130151321.htm

Good article!"

Thanks for that.I can honestly say it doesnt surprise me that much.Always seemed to me salvation was often really a self-centered thought.

Will need to wait to watch that vid though Jonathan,only slow internet connection,so takes time to download before viewing.

I will check it out though soon thanks.

Life said...

Gandolf....Very simple....Somone predicted 8 things about you 50 years before you were born. What is the probability of those things happening? You wanted me to think with honest Scientific type thinking so I am doing what you said. If you have any problems go to the web to learn about probabilities and then you can calculate.

Gandolf said...

Life said... "Gandolf....Very simple....Somone predicted 8 things about you 50 years before you were born. What is the probability of those things happening? You wanted me to think with honest Scientific type thinking so I am doing what you said."

But you are still not thinking in a very scientific manner (at all) Life,you are thinking like a complete utter faithfully indoctrinated twit!.And that i notice it is what faith, does to very many people of faith quite often!.Seems it makes them quite happy to be stupid,they dont seem to care about the importance of having all information and cross checking anything much.

Because its obvious we do need much more information than you have given me so far,before we are able to ever even start making some informed decisions/conclusions about these matters.

For instance if we are talking about predictions made by somebody (50years before my birth),that they thought most likely... 1, id eat!... and then ... 2, need to take a shit.

Then the probability is quite high! that someone could quite easily! predict this.Its no big prediction,almost anyone could easily predict this.

If it was that i would have my tonsil removed,the probility would be much less.But we still need to know who made the prediction,because if they were a family member then maybe they might already have had knowledge that members of my family very often are well known to have problems with their tonsils.

So you see Life...ALL this information is VERY IMPORTANT indeed, in helping us make some INFORMED conclusions.

Without it we are left to almost total guesswork!.Without this information we are silly gits acting like idiots,thinking we are smart and know what we are doing when we dont know anything.

You inform me of f**k all!,and expect me to come up with some sort of informed conclusion?.Are you mad?

So you see Life you are still not using a brain or any scientific method at all.You learned nothing!!.

Because you are a faithful person,what i had previously pointed out, went in one ear! and then straight out the other ear and then floated right over your head like a free flowing sea breeze!.Without touching absolutely any brain matter! in between it seems.

Before you had blissfully pointed out the bible had predicted in later days people would likely dislike christians..To you this seemed supernaturally wonderful and really amazing ..However you didnt look for or examine all information looking for any possible reasons...Like the fact its quite likely many folks already disliked christianity even before the prediction was made.

To be honest im thinking most likely its going to be a total waste of time discussing this stuff with you.You wont ever use a brain and catch on,you will likely only just revert to use of your religious indoctrination every time a coconut.All you will do is keep trying to re assert stuff,in hope it still simply seems to fit your faith indoctrination.

That method is not science.

Life said...

Gandof. Little children do rant and rave when they are stuck with no answer....It is sad to see you coward out and take the Neanderthal method of bashing...Mr. Loftus would be proud of you...

Jonathan said...

@Cole


Tell me what you think about this article.

Believers' Inferences About God's Beliefs Are Uniquely Egocentric

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091130151321.htm


I don't know how to say this in any other way, it sounds like you have made God in your image.

Its one thing to have a discussion with a Christian from various denominations, but another thing when one like you talks about God in vague vaporous jargon.

I don't know where you are coming from.

Jonathan said...

@ Life

Good for you that you don't agree with and support Pat Robertson.

But...

I think the argument you are trying to present is biblical prophecy. I think the people that add comments to this blog, like Gandolf have this argument heard it before.

If this is your argument can you not draw it out?

Can you also add what denomination you represent, because you haven't even admitted being Christian, you could be a Muslim.



Is English your 2nd language?


Cheers

Gandolf said...

Yes thats correct Jonathan, im not some mind reader who thinks maybe he can predict what the actual predictions are that Life is actually talking about.

(I already explained to him before, why this extra information is very important).I explained why its important to considder the whole situation.

Still Life comes back blurting ...>"Very simple....Somone predicted 8 things about you 50 years before you were born. What is the probability of those things happening?"

Its not so simple at all.What 8 predictions are we talking about?.How can somebody calculate the probability without even knowing what the predictions were?, so as to be able to considder what the situation might have been surrounding them etc.

Life first came here to DC spouting..."I just heard about your group. Thank you for being who you are and doing what you do. You are proof that the Bible is true. Thank you again."

Then proceeds to prove how ignorant his bible faith tends to make some people.

Im not really fazed with being called a coward or told i use the Neanderthal method.Use of the Neanderthal club might actually be the only thing that might work in helping re-jump starting some neuron action in some of these faithful folk, who seem to have such faith in superstition, they even seem to think humans are mind readers.


...............................

By the way today i watched some of those Youtube vids you suggested.I like them very much, they are simple and are great for pointing things out and making matters easier to understand.

Chuck O'Connor said...

Life,

Here's a tip. Scientific thinking looks to prove itself wrong. Do you?

How about this refutation that OT prophecy predicted Jesus, post facto rationalization.

Why don't Orthodox Jews practicing mitzvah to usher in Messiah consider the text you are alluding to as Messianic? Because they aren't?

Now, can the smugness when all you display is indoctrination supported by narrow ethnocentrism.

David said...

All that voodoo talk reminds me that imprecatory prayer is a form of Christian voodoo.

Life said...

It doesn't matter about all of the arguments that go on. You are going to Debunk anything and everything said. You can use all types of rhetoric and speak all the expletives you want. You can Debunk every statement, every testimony, every person.

You can Debunk that Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 13th.)

I can go on but it would not matter. The reason is because you are blind. It is like trying to explain to a person who has been blind all of their life what a tree looks like.

You can't do it.

You will never see any of this because you are blind.

One thing you can't Debunk, although you will try, is that over 35 years ago I had a supernatural experience that changed my life. You can't Debunk the fact that I went from being a suicidal, hateful, murderer to a loving individual in the matter of minutes because of Jesus Christ. It is called being born again. You can't Debunk the fact that in one moment of time hatred, depression, malice, bitterness, and all manner of evil left me and that the pure love of the Son of God filled me instead. You can't Debunk that because I get to live it everyday.

The prophecies are still going to come which you can keep on Debunking. In 1Tim 4:1 , 2 Thes 2:3, Mat 24: 9-12 it prophecies exactly what you (Anti-Christ)ians are going to depart from your faith. Your group will grow stronger and stronger and more and more Christians are going to join and depart from their faith with you. It is happening now and will continue to increase.

Gandolf. you and your group will grow stronger and have more Christians come with you and you will be able to take up that club you wanted to and begin to hit people like me in the head and watch our skulls crack open and blood ooze out from our heads. Your kind is already doing that everyday to my brothers and sisters over seas. You are raping our women, torturing our men and murdering our children. You will laugh at us and try to convert us but all we will do is continue to show you the love of God.

You will get to the point that you have almost wiped us all out and then the end will come. Almighty God will descend and blast your kind with the breath of his nostrils and you will be sent into eternity forever with Satan and his followers.

You can laugh now and Debunk whatever you want but there will be a day coming when you are going to draw your last breath and leave this life...It will be your last chance to repent because once you leave there is no turning back...It is forever... Hell is a place reserved for the devil and his angles. It is a place where no one loves anyone. There is only hatred there. People are being tortured and can hardly breathe. You won't even be able to get any break from the suffering that is experienced there every day.

If what you say is true then you have nothing to fear, but if what we have been telling you is true then you have an eternity to pay for. Remember THAT when you draw your last breath...

Jonathan said...

@Life

Suggestion, use your blogger account and copy your ," over emotional rant" and start a blog.

I will be more than happy to post comments and questions.

Regarding This:


Gandolf. you and your group will grow stronger and have more Christians come with you and you will be able to take up that club you wanted to and begin to hit people like me in the head and watch our skulls crack open and blood ooze out from our heads. Your kind is already doing that everyday to my brothers and sisters over seas. You are raping our women, torturing our men and murdering our children. You will laugh at us and try to convert us but all we will do is continue to show you the love of God.


Ya, know Life, I really don't know how to respond to this. Because it sounds like complete bull. Accusing people like Gandolf and I, with such stuff like this is inexcusable. You don't know anything about us, and yet you make up this fallacious statement because we won't play your goofy guessing game? Where do you come off with such over-emotional trite?

It seems me your supposed anger has not dissipated and some anger management classes are defiantly warranted.

You a loving person you've got to be kidding, if you don't believe that God did this blah, blah, blah, then you are going to hell.

You, life you can believe in anything you want. In this country the US and other 1st world nations, like Australia, New Zealand, Europe, ect we have a right not to a practice any religion. We have a right not to believe in God.


By the way, what is this crap about murdering people, and why aren't you in jail?


Peace and out.


Serious dude, start a blog,

don't forget now, ya here.

Gandolf said...

Life said...."Gandolf. you and your group will grow stronger and have more Christians come with you and you will be able to take up that club you wanted to and begin to hit people like me in the head and watch our skulls crack open and blood ooze out from our heads"

What was said was meant as a type of metaphor,i was looking for a way of expressing the frustration felt when experiencing how faith can stop some people seeing certain simple very important factors.Like for instance the almost impossibility of judging probability of prediction without first having information of exactly what predictions we speak of.I had been reasonably peaceful in spending time explaining good reasons we have for need to take into account all factors in making conclusions.You seemed to still choose to be awkward and impossible and seemed more about following up on your first post which quietly poked the finger at how in your mind atheists are supposedly good proof of the bible being true.

You are correct my personality is such, that im not the type to suffer fools lightly, for ever.Specially when the fool seems to be enjoying making matters as awkward and impossible as they possibly can.

If you honestly couldnt see the problem there was with not supplying evidence of what actual prediction we were actually supposed to be calculating Probability of chance for.Then i simply apologize!.Im not afraid to fully admit my imperfections.

Life said..."You can't Debunk the fact that I went from being a suicidal, hateful, murderer to a loving individual in the matter of minutes because of Jesus Christ. It is called being born again. You can't Debunk the fact that in one moment of time hatred, depression, malice, bitterness, and all manner of evil left me and that the pure love of the Son of God filled me instead. "

First id like to say honestly im very happy about this, for your sake Life.How could i dislike the fact this has had a positive effect personally on yourself.

But then i feel a need to also point out for many people and even in my case, it has been abuse of faith and the faithful,that has left many including myself feeling rather angry and abused.Faith of the faithful in some cases has caused hate! and suicide! and even the murder!! of many of those falsely accused as witches for instance.So lets not try to suggest thoughts of gods have always brought love and peace etc!,because that would be false! and would not be doing justice to those who suffered some even in times gone past being slaughtered as sacrifice for the gods of peoples "faith".

Personally it seems to me that maybe it might actually have a whole lot more to do with the LUCK of RANDOM CHANCE, of finding yourself amongst a group of people who are less abusive! and more loving!for instance, and for them to be less abusive and more loving we need to remember often they also need to actually be(more liberal about their faith beliefs).

Life said..."You can Debunk that Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). "

Life thanks for the info,i agree there is still many things that are hard to understand and comprehend.Reasons for situations like you discribe above, are maybe harder to explain, than why/how someone could maybe predict the likelyhood of growing dislike of christians in the future.

Gandolf said...

Life said...."You won't even be able to get any break from the suffering that is experienced there every day."

Well atleast (peoples faith in this life),has me well prepared for what its like to be experiencing suffering that seems to never end.From the time i was born to this very day,and im sure for tomorrow and likely the day after and the day after etc.I have experienced abusiveness of faith that has continued onwards without end splitting and deviding my family and many others.Its caused parents to be devided and excommunicated from their own children.Its covered up sexual abuse and driven a certain number of people to suicide and even a few times in some families caused mulituple murder followed by suicide.....Such was the never ending torment and torture of the particular brand of faith being experienced.

So personally i dont find the likelyhodd of hell in the afterlife,anywhere near as real as the HELL of peoples FAITH,that ive personally experienced here in THIS LIFE.

So while im very happy faith has been beneficial for yourself Life,i think its still important these factors and our conclusions are kept in context.And so id like to suggest that its more than likely got much to do with the quality of the care of the particular group we find ourselves involved with and influenced by,than being connected to faith of gods.

Because i happen to now know very many non believers who strangely dont seem to happen to be bursting at the seams,with all longing to become uncaring hateful suicidal murderers.

The evidence for peaceful loving people,does not seem to correlate with data to suggest there is any real connection with faith in gods.

Life said...

Jonathon,

Read 1 John 3:15 and you will see what I meant by murderer...

When I cam into this blog I was called so many things and told i was this and that without anyone knowing me...Just like you said I don't know you...

You are right I don"t know you but I tried...

You didn't know me yet you said I had dung coming out of my mouth...


Gandof you are right. Most of those people who have done those things in the name of the Lord will perish...What they preach and teach is hypocrisy...

Go to Amazon.com and look up a book called "This Is Life Eternal. Why many Christians will not make Heaven" You will see why I say this...


Both of you men, like myself have much soul searching to do, but I have seen amazing things and I can tell you it is for real. Search him with all your heart and do it alone without any religious affiliation. Search him one on one and see what he does for you and shows you. No Bible, No church, Just you and him one and one and see what happens.

Jonathan said...

@Life

1 John 3:15 (New International Version)
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

I found this quote, and so freaking what! You made the asinine claim that you are a murderer, which is a incredible stupid thing to say on the net. Just because you hate someone doesn’t make you a murderer. Saying that statement do you really expect me to understand it other than you are a murderer is even more asinine.

You are the one who made that bizarre statement accusing people on this blog of killing, murdering, and raping your fellow countrymen. What country is this again? And again you don’t have the decency to explain yourself properly? The fact you know deep in your own tormented heart no one here had any personal affiliation with the events in your country, by the way, what county is that?

you sir, are a liar, we know about people who falsely accuse, don’t we?


What is this about dung?
I cut / paste Ezekiel 4:12 about cakes made from barley and poop. Is this incorrect?

Gandof you are right. Most of those people who have done those things in the name of the Lord will perish...What they preach and teach is hypocrisy...

This is why Christianity is complete bull*. You know why? The very idea that God had a child and this god child is executed, only at the end of the day leave a fragmented and divisive culture, where they spend the majority of the time deny each others salvation. This book “"This Is Life Eternal” is a prime example of this divisiveness.

This is really freaking Great

Since you don’t agree with any main stream churches, Search him with all your heart and do it alone without any religious affiliation. you should start your own church, great freaking advice.

Dude, set up your blog, then you can inspire the world with your religious conviction.

Sheesh, whatever.

Breckmin said...

"The very idea that God had a child and this god child is executed, only at the end of the day leave a fragmented and divisive culture, where they spend the majority of the time deny each others salvation."

The battle is spiritual...it is NOT just visible in this temporary creation. You listen to the gospel, but you do not understand Its Incredible Beauty.

You do not see God's Self-Sacrificing Love - nor do you see His Incredible Grace.

Jonathan said...

Brermin

I am calling you out...

The battle is spiritual...it is NOT just visible in this temporary creation. You listen to the gospel, but you do not understand Its Incredible Beauty.

You do not see God's Self-Sacrificing Love - nor do you see His Incredible Grace.


Baloney

I'm going to create man and woman
with original Sin. Then I'm going to impregnate a woman with myself as her child, so that I can be born. Once alive, I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from the sin I original condemned you to.

Ta dah!!!

I wish I thought of this but, I didn't. But how factual is it? Pretty much.

There is no beauty in Christianity, especially when its a alteration of another existing faith. If you find such drivel as the origin myths Adam / Eve, Cain / Able, the flood, the tower of Babel, Exodus, and the resurrection of God's all knowing, all seeing, all etc you seriously need to stop drinking from the magical kool aid.

The last 1700 years of Christian managment has not been a cake walk for anyone on this planet. The simple concept of "treating one as one excepts to be treated" has almost never been followed.

I am supposed to understand your bumbling concept of a god that destroys the world as a loving God?

Yea, dude, whatever.

:P

Paul Caubet said...

In the middle of earth is a solid center with a somewhat molten liquid outer-casing. Between the core and surface is a lower- and somewhat higher-viscosity upper-mantle. Above the upper-mantle is a layer comprised of oceanic and continental crust, mostly basalt and granite respectively. Tectonic plates move because the lithosphere, a cooler outer layer that includes crust and uppermost portions of mantle, is more rigid, stronger, less dense, and less fluid than the underlying asthenosphere, the weaker, hotter, deeper fluid mass on which it floats. Boundaries where tectonic plates converge form fault zones, planar fractures in which rock on one side has moved with respect to rock on the other. Convergent-type plates form the largest mass of fault surfaces, which only pass freely by one another if no irregularities exist between them to create friction and resistance. Most have asperities, thus boundaries lock, and continual motion between plates increases stress and stores energy til a critical mass (sufficient to rupture the asperity) is reached, allowing a sudden slip between interlocked portions of fault. Energy from frictional heat and busting rock releases in seismic waves that shake the surrounding earth. No devil's bargain, no wrath from above, no ritual magic, just the physics of geologic cause and effect. Mr. Robertson has a dark primitive psyche and should be restrained from poisoning minds with injurious hateful ignorance. It's not the first time he tarnished the hearts of his charges with heinous demonically-inspired sentiments.

Life said...

Like I said Jonathan you are blind and cannot see....

You never will understand until the light of God's love breaks open your heart...

Jonathan said...

Life said...

Like I said Jonathan you are blind and cannot see....

You never will understand until the light of God's love breaks open your heart..



Dude you accuse everyone on this blog as murderers and rapists and you have the audacity to hide behind God's love?


You are a complete hypocrite.


Enjoy your delusion.

Jonathan said...

@Paul Caubet


Thanks for the realty check.


:)

Life said...

You are exactly right..I do hide behind God's love ...it is what changed me....

Hey Dude...

You want to hide behind your sin...Jonathan wants to do what Jonathan wants to do and not what Jesus wants him to do...

Face it no one else died for you but him...

No one else loves you like him...

The bitterness and anger in your heart are blinding you to the truth...

The only thing I accuse you of is being Anti-Christ and that puts yourself in that category...

Why are you so afraid of his love?

I know you will blame it on me or something I said...

Look in the mirror dude and quit hiding from the truth...

You are what you are and you run from the only one that can change you...

God's love...

Jonathan said...

Life said…this

Your kind is already doing that everyday to my brothers and sisters over seas. You are raping our women, torturing our men and murdering our children. You will laugh at us and try to convert us but all we will do is continue to show you the love of God.


Jonathan>

You falsely accuse people of crimes they didn’t commit. When asked what country this happed you don’t reply.

Life>Search him one on one and see what he does for you and shows you. No Bible, No church, Just you and him one and one and see what happens.

Jonathan>you are a heretic because the main stream churches don’t appeal to you start you own. You “claim to be a Christian, yet you don’t go into a detail.

The worst is you know you made false statements and you falsely accuse people of crimes they didn’t commit you want to change the subject because you got caught. You go on this rambling statement of God’s love. I am sorry life, you are a lying heretic. You also claimed to be a murder and suddenly change the meaning of what a murder means.


Massive Fail.

Life said...

There you go again Jonathan...

You started out calling me names and end up doing the same...

Check out the web site of Voice of the Martyrs....Read Foxes Book of Martyrs...

Check out the book Tortured for Christ...

I have plenty of countries and examples to give you...Let em know how many more you want...

You will see what Anti-Christians do to people who believe in Christ...


You are Anti-Christ just like them. You may not be raping or murdering but your kind (Anti-Christ) is...

He who is not for Jesus is against him...

At least have the guts to admit it...


Just because you cannot see the truth don't blame me for it...

Blame your father the devil...

He is the one blinding you....

Jonathan said...

Life

*You claim you are a murderer.
*You accuse people on this blog of being murderers.
*You also claim not use a bible or church.

So you are a false accusing, murdering, heretic. Where am I wrong?

*Oh, and my dad is the devil.

Liar

What country do you come from again, you seem to avoid answering that question.

you also give me your email, so we can move this conversation which is way off topic.

Re:

Tortured for Christ (Founder of The Voice of the Martyrs)
~ Richard Wurmbrand

During the time of the cold war any threat to the regimes of eastern Europe were dealt with harshly. Many innocent people were convicted of crimes regardless of their religious faith. You cherry pick only Christians as being abused denies me of your humanity. It doesn't matter what a person faith is they should not be attacked for it.

Instead of supporting groups like Amnesty International that supports all humans rights, you think a Christian life is worth more.

No one should be singled out for violence for their religious or political beliefs. The countries that are listed are the lowest in the human index development. Everyone in these countries are subject to abuse regardless of their beliefs. These countries are equal opportunity abusers.

I will start calling you names.

You are a idiot.

A person has a right to have to practice religion as much of a right not to practice one. A person has a right of having a political view as much as a right to have a contrasting political view.

No one should be singled out for any punishment because of their religious or political beliefs.

Do you understand my position Idiot ?

Life said...

By the way ...it is an idiot...not a idiot

I claimed I was a murderer when I was very young...Just because you took it the wrong way shows the lack of understanding on your part.

You don't read your blog very carefully...

I never accused you of anything...

It was the same people you believe in (Anti-Christians) I accused...

Are you Anti-Christ?

That is what this blog is about isn't it?

I did not claim to not use the Bible...or go to no church...Again read your blog...

I told Gandolf since he did not believe the Bible or did not go to Church to seek God one on one...

I guess since you cannot read the blogs very well that must make you an i...

No I won't be like you....Your the name caller....

Your the one who is afraid Jonathan.

Afraid to admit you are against Christ or are you for him?

Jonathan said...

@life

What part of this didn't you not understand

A person has a right to have to practice religion as much of a right not to practice one. A person has a right of having a political view as much as a right to have a contrasting political view.


I don't think Jesus is the son of God, is God, or even the 2nd cousin to God. I am not for Jesus or against Jesus. Jesus is a man nothing more or less. The same goes for any man-made religion.

I am against people forcing their beliefs on others. Regardless what they beleive.

Do you not understand this? Or your purposely ignoring it as the same as you ignore the simple question what country do you come from?

I am am from Sunnyvale California. Now its is your turn.

This is what you said...
I never accused you of anything...

Then what is this?

Gandolf. you and your group will grow stronger and have more Christians come with you and you will be able to take up that club you wanted to and begin to hit people like me in the head and watch our skulls crack open and blood ooze out from our heads. Your kindis already doing that everyday to my brothers and sisters over seas. You are raping our women, torturing our men and murdering our children.
You will laugh at us and try to convert us but all we will do is continue to show you the love of God.



You are a freaking idiot.

By the way have a nice day anyway.

Life said...

This will be my last blog...

Where I live hatred is murder...

You have the right to choose whatever you believe..

It is your God given right...

Jesus said he that is not for me is against me...

Because of my choice I have to pay for it every day...

Sunnyvale, California sounds like a nice place

Do Anti-Christ's rape your daughters there...

They did mine...

Would they use her and abuse her...

I fight satan wherever I go...

Soon I may be gone from this Earth because of what I believe....

Forgive me if I seemed to be the "Idiot you called me"

I cannot tell you where I live but only this...

Read the Voice of the Martyr...

You will see...

I pray you make it to heaven Jonathan...you seem like a caring man...

Goodbye...