On Judgment Day I'll Just Plead Insanity!

Yep, that's what I'll do if there is a judgment before God. My friend Kevin Harris, who produces William Lane Craig's podcasts, tells me that: "Going to hell is insane! But that's what sin is! Self-induced insanity!" Link. But if this is true I plan on pleading insanity. I could not believe differently than I do. Consequently, I did not know what I was doing was wrong, nor did I know there would be such severe consequences for my actions. Now what fair judge (much less a perfectly good one) would ever sentence me to hell, any hell, based on these considerations? None! Q.E.D.

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

No doubt the headlines on tomorrow's blogs will have the words, "Loftus Admits He's Insane."

;-)

Mark Plus said...

Just think, John: If god sends you to hell, he'll just demonstrate that your earthly life had meaning and purpose after all. You should thank him for that gift.

D.L. Folken said...

Giving up the truth for a lie. Isn't that what happened back in the Garden?

When Adam and Eve sinned, they sought to blame someone else too...

History doth repeat itself.

Anonymous said...

Don't worry John,
you're not going to hell, the worst thats going to happen is you'll be reincarnated. Just put your hat where you can find it when you get back.
;-)

Ignerant Phool said...

I like that Mark.

I think two signs of christian delusion are the belief in Adam & Eve/original sin, and hell. Deep down I also think the willingness to hold on to the these doctrines when clearly nonsensical shows cowardice. They fear to think, they fear to question their beliefs and more obvious, a god who is only in the minds of men. They defend and fight for a god they think they know, yet he has never answered a prayer or revealed himself in any way, shape or form. If you asked me, christianity is unnecessary.

stamati anagnostou said...

Mark, hold on. Just hold on. John should thank god for sending him to hell? I want to vomit. I am literally feeling sick. I'm not joking.

Let me tell you something. A few months ago I went through a crisis of faith that ending in my rejecting Christianity. Don't assume anything about me yet, please. I was a very devoted Christian, although at the time I didn't really think so, and I worked hard and prayed hard for god to restore my faith. He didn't, and the whole while I was fearing hell. I had to be admitted to the hospital twice for chest pains, and then to a mental health facility because I was literally going insane from thinking about hell and hoping I wouldn't go where all the while I was praying and petitioning god for help.

So here's where I have to hold in my foul language and outrage at your comment. I have to try to relax and be kind to you.

Oh wait you were being facitious. Well, people do believe this and let's just go ahead and apply this to them.

Ignerant Phool said...

Stamati, I said I like what Mark said, so I feel you're also responding to me. BTW, I do also like what you said in John's post about what he's learned blogging.

First, I'm sorry to hear about your pain and mental struggle you had to endure as a result of being taught hell fire. Hell was one of the first and easiest idea I was able to let go of when I was and still a believer, which I think was a gateway in applying critical thinking to the bible and Christianity as a whole. I could see how believing in hell could be abusive mentally, so what you said is not surprising. This is why the first thing I said to myself after realizing this false doctrine was, "OMG! We have to stop telling the kids about hell!"

Having said that, I would not have thought something like what Mark said would affect anyone as it did for you. I do think it could be a case of perception. Certainly not everyone would react or be affected the way you did/were.

What bothers me to this day, (because of cases like yours) is knowing there are people Harvey, who are still telling kids about hell. This is what makes me sick. I don't know where you are in your recovery stage, and I'm no Marlene Winell, (She can help you if you need it) but if you really believe there is no hell, draw upon those your reasons to fight your fears. Because if there's nothing to fear, there's nothing to fear.

I refuse to let people standing in the pews tell me where I will go after death if I don't do this or that. Stamati, do not let man have this type of control over you my friend. Ask yourself how and why do they know this outcome? Where does this idea come from. When did this idea develop. Why is it that you have to find out from a man just like yourself, of your fate? Can he be wrong just like any other man can be? If you cannot be sure, you are within your rights to reject it.

I don't know how you will escape the constant talk of hell, but when you hear it, you have to remember it is simply one of the many dangerous ideas of men. More importantly, it's not true and cannot be demonstrated.

I think it was probably easier to let go of this doctrine after seeing the evidence against it, as I told myself that I definitely would not want to worship someone who would send people to such a place. What makes more sense, that man would conceive such a doctrine, or God?

stamati anagnostou said...

Thanks, Andre. After my whole ordeal I quit my job and traveled to Greece, where I am now and I've been keeping a journal. I wrote something about Christ and the idea of justice that really helped me overcome my fear of hell. I realized that the concept is absurd and really does make this god out to be all about himself. If he did exist, which I'm pretty damn sure he doesn't, then I wouldn't want to worship such a beast anyway.

Philosophies from Nietszche and Buddha have also helped me to conquer fear with a whole new level of victory than ever in my life.

The doctrine of hell feeds off of people's inherent fear of authority and truly I think is what keeps believers in line, as you've said. Frank Herbert was right, fear is the mindkiller.

This being said, I think that Mark's statement was satirical, no?

Ignerant Phool said...

You're welcome Stamati. Yes, I do think it was satire. I think is point was a good one in regard to purpose in life. Christians like to say there is no purpose without God, but life without a purpose is no life basically. Can we have life and not have purpose base on the life we have (not an ultimate purpose). Obviously, whether it was a god or not that gave us life, purpose will be an effect. Thus, this christian argument is irrelevant.

So what Marks point shows is that purpose can lead to good or bad outcomes. In this case, what is the purpose ultimately?

Mark Plus said...

Let me restate my meaning: Apart from the minority view held by annihilationists, many christians express horror at the thought of eternal nonexistence at death, saying that the absence of an afterlife deprives this life of meaning and purpose. If they want an afterlife that badly, wouldn't they prefer even hell to annihilation? The unpopularity of annihilationist theology seems to imply that.

stamati anagnostou said...

Yeah, I've had a Christian friend express to me that to him hell is preferable to not existing, which frankly I can't fathom. I mean heck, we've all not existed before! That crap is easy. Now hell, that's a new ballgame. As Nietzsche said, "Man would sooner have the void for his purpose than be void of purpose."

I think you put it well, Andre, that life is inherently purpose and a lack of purpose is non-life. Having the afterlife concept sucks so much meaning out of the only thing we do have, imo. I have friends who feel that being miserable and confused is worth it because they know the truth, which I guess would be alright if it were the truth, but yeah. God makes them miserable and confused is my point and they're willing to deal with that because heaven awaits. But hey, if you seek to save your life you'll lose it right?

Kyle said...

I think that Hell has been misunderstood here. First, God doesn't want people to go to Hell. "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked"-Ezekiel 33:11. Hell isn't some torture chamber of fire either, it is the complete separation from God, and going to Hell is only God reluctantly giving people what they've been striving for during their lives which is separation from him.

Stamati, you said you prayed hard for God to restore your faith, but if God did restore your faith by a miracle then faith wouldn't be involved anymore you would simply know that He existed which would have stripped you of your free will. This is the same reason that God can't force people to go to Heaven. Stripping a person's free will and making them believe in him would immorally dehumanize us.

stamati anagnostou said...

Psalm 58:10 "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

"Hell is only God reluctantly giving people what they've been striving for during their lives which is separation from him."

I think this is objectively not true. You would need to say that people like me, John, other ex-Christians, and other spiritual seekers have been striving to be separate from god, despite our best efforts otherwise. Additionally, you will need to justify passages like 2Th 2:11-12 as God reluctantly giving people damnation. You have to resist the urge to take one passage as you did to define all of God's overt actions. I used to do that because it helped to skim over the unpleasantness that I found.

"Stamati, you said you prayed hard for God to restore your faith, but if God did restore your faith by a miracle then faith wouldn't be involved anymore you would simply know that He existed which would have stripped you of your free will."

I see what you're saying, I want you to know that. But, my issue at the time was that I was confused about all sorts of gods and realities and wanted to know what was true. I didn't want to just believe without some kind of confirmation that what I was believing was objectively true. I mustered as much faith as I could, enough to pray and witness while in a mental health clinic (where I was because of god issues) but I still got no confirmation of truth that was outside of my own psyche. This lead me to believe that the reality of something exists because you believe it as such. I could very well have just believed in Allah, or had faith in Xenu, or in a god of my own design. It would have been just as true. If I just believed in Yahweh, what would make that different that someone who just believed in Joseph Smith? Do you see what I'm getting at?

Also, I am not entirely sure where people get this free will talk from. I think at best it is squeezed out of some situations that involve choices being made, but really the Bible speaks much more heavily about predestination than it does about any kind of free will. Also, I sure wouldn't mind if god interrupted my free will to save me from a certain doom, you know? Doesn't bother me in the slightest ;).